Karma vs. Spiritual Practice - Free Will - Bhagavat Gita

[Guest guest]

Dear friends, Namaste,

 

Some notes from Bhagavat Gita may shed light on the ever-ellusive

free-will vs. predeterminism/karma issue; from two different

commentaries. It looks free-will and law of karma co-exist at the

same time. But in another part of the Gita which I could not locate

just now, there is mention about the life of a man doing good

thereby supporting, enhancing positive forces in nature eventually

ending in a life of bliss, which H.H.Prabhupada seems to be

describing at the very last paragraph below.

 

Bhagavat Gita Chptr.1 Verse 1

 

Man's life is so highly evolved that he enjoys freedom of action in

nature. This enables him to live in any way he desires, eighter for

good or for evil. As he behaves, so he receives.

H.H.Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

 

Chptr.1 Verse 39

 

Certainly man is the master of his own destiny. He has free will -

the greatest of God's gift to him - whereby he has complete freedom

of action. But having performed action he has to bear its

consequence, for reaction is always equal to action.

 

It is not because he (Arjuna) is in a state of confusion, but

because no amount of intellectual clarity can provide anyone with

insight into the complex workings of diverse nature.

H.H.Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

 

Chptr.1 Verse 39

 

But on the death of the elder members, such family traditions of

purification may stop, and the remaining younger family members may

develop irreligious habits and thereby loose their chance for

spiritual salvation.

H.H.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Best wishes, Sabri.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sabri, Ivar, all,

 

Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is. Anyone care

to define "free will"? First you have to define free will and then

only can you discuss whether it exists or not. In careful thought, I

have discovered free will isnt so easy to recognize. Most people

simply call free will the ability to follow the desire that is

topmost in their head. If you get to marry the man or woman you like,

or get the chance to earn a degree in the profession you like, or get

to eat the food you like, or get to buy the house you like, or get to

converse with the people you like, or live in the country you like,

or get to follow any of a thousand other desires, you are convinced

you have free will. If you don't, then you complain that you don't

have free will. To me, we first have see - "Is the desire free

*itself*?" I hardly find a single desire that arises freely. Every

desire arises as a consequence of something else.

 

You want to marry a man or woman you like because of physical

attraction which again happens due to your biological and mental

makeup. It isnt a choice, simply a consequence of your physical and

mental makeup. Similarly with all other desires. My suspicion is

that "free will" as mentioned in the sacred texts, DOES NOT even

refer to the "choices" of the mind. They are all bound and part of a

chain, it doesnt matter which one you get to follow. Once the mind

follows a desire, it is ALREADY BOUND, not free! Free will, I think,

is to do only with choosing to NOT jump headlong into following a

desire. The only choice that is offered to us in life is that at all

times, you have the ability to not get carried away by desire. If you

exercise that choice, you have exercised free will. If you dont, you

havent. Bill Gates isnt exercising free will, he is simply succumbing

to one or more of the desires that present themselves in his mind.

Witness the following statements:

1) In the Bhagavad Gita, I interpret the following statement as

hinting at the above idea (though not directly) - lust is essentially

desire:

"The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of

contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into

wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world"

 

2) Jiddu Krishnamurti - one of the few people that have ever lived

whose life was moksha in itself:

"Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man's

pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure

observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward.

Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution

of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation

one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the

choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity"

 

 

It is only after we realize what free will is that it makes sense to

discover it in astrological charts. Even if someone tells that x and

y houses are those of free will - what is the free will that they

show?

 

Sundeep

[Guest guest]

> Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is.

 

Not me. I simply talked about astrology. What Bhagavad-gita says

applies to life, not about astrology. I hope you understand what I

mean.

 

I'm well aware of the Bhagavad-gita. I read commentaries on it more

than 50 times, its translation at least 100 times, and the Sanskrit

more than 500, during the last 11 years. It's a wonderful text.

 

But it doesn't deny my views on astrology.

 

Ivar

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep

I do not have that much indepth knowledge on Gita..

But would like to state the following:

Desire is an inborn quality with every one which

motivates one to aspire and achieve something which

may be both materialistic or spiritualistic. It is

more of what one's mind wants. whether he gets it or

not depends on various factors. When a baby is born it

does not have any desires as its basic needs are food

and sleep. while it grows, the mind also develops as

are the desires. Along with the mind it also develops

intelligence which decides guides on throgh decision

making process. It is here that one tries to exercise

his free will.. For example, take Sri Ram/Bharath. Ram

was s the crown prince and could have avoided going to

exile where as Bharath inherited the thrown but

sacrificed it. simillarly most of us know that we do

live in a world of maya and nothing is permenant.

Still we do not stop pursuing them.

 

Desire is the result of Mana (Mo) where as Free will

is purely dependant on Intelligence (Ju). If jupiter

is badly afflicted then it forces one to make bad

decisions. one can have desires which he may achieve

or may not have any desires and become a sanyasi.

Simillarly one can succumb to the desires and commit

shameful acts or Control his desires. It is based on

his free will that he wilol act upon.

Astrologically speaking Desires are the cause of

re-birth and the Karma one does/Dharma one follows are

results of one's Free will which contributes to ones

good /bad karma from past/future lives..

 

Lakshman

 

 

 

 

 

Meet the all-new My - Try it today!

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep, Namaste,

 

Some thoughts;

You are perfectly right in pointing out to the need to define the

meaning of "terms" in such a (philosophical) matter, indeed language

and logic are the tools of philosophy and they should be used

correctly or one is lost.

 

"Free Will" in this context, my personal thinking, is about who is

giving the decision to act in a certain way. Is it "me" who decides

to go this way and face a certain consequence, or the effect of past

karma that puts this thought in my mind, and I go that way and face

that same consequence. Since karma is coming back to us, it appears

that at least some of our thoughts should be predetermined, e.g. we

think we are giving the decision, but in fact these thoughts we are

having are already determined. OR it is arranged so that, when we

are to face a consequence, whatever the decision we take, life is

arranged so that we end up facing the same or similar consequence.

The matter is actually quite complicated, as is said in the

Gita; "Unfathomable is the course of action", e.g. we never know the

intricate details of how nature works, e.g. life unfolds before us.

Whether someghing specific is due to karma or our own decision, or

if karma, because of which previous deed etc.

 

As man evolves further and further, he gains more of free-will, e.g.

to make decisions on his own, not based on previous karmic effects,

is another thought.

 

But it is always good to ponder and discuss over these issues. I

myself very surprisingly found some new things, while looking at

Bhagavat Gita, to post some excerpts.

 

One further thought, as one evolves further and further same

realities, or same pieces of knowledge gain newer meanings and

dimensions. So we can never say this is exactly like that, some time

later, we can turn back and look at the same matter, and discover

some new dimensions, realities or truths, that were not apparent or

there before. This is simply because with evolution comes wider and

better faculty of understanding of the same old reality. One saying

goes; "There is nothing new under the sun" but we only see part of

it.

 

Best wishes, Sabri.

 

 

vedic astrology, "vedicastrostudent"

<vedicastrostudent> wrote:

>

> Dear Sabri, Ivar, all,

>

> Everyone is so sure that they *know* what free will is. Anyone

care

> to define "free will"? First you have to define free will and then

> only can you discuss whether it exists or not. In careful thought,

I

> have discovered free will isnt so easy to recognize. Most people

> simply call free will the ability to follow the desire that is

> topmost in their head. If you get to marry the man or woman you

like,

> or get the chance to earn a degree in the profession you like, or

get

> to eat the food you like, or get to buy the house you like, or get

to

> converse with the people you like, or live in the country you

like,

> or get to follow any of a thousand other desires, you are

convinced

> you have free will. If you don't, then you complain that you don't

> have free will. To me, we first have see - "Is the desire free

> *itself*?" I hardly find a single desire that arises freely. Every

> desire arises as a consequence of something else.

>

> You want to marry a man or woman you like because of physical

> attraction which again happens due to your biological and mental

> makeup. It isnt a choice, simply a consequence of your physical

and

> mental makeup. Similarly with all other desires. My suspicion is

> that "free will" as mentioned in the sacred texts, DOES NOT even

> refer to the "choices" of the mind. They are all bound and part of

a

> chain, it doesnt matter which one you get to follow. Once the mind

> follows a desire, it is ALREADY BOUND, not free! Free will, I

think,

> is to do only with choosing to NOT jump headlong into following a

> desire. The only choice that is offered to us in life is that at

all

> times, you have the ability to not get carried away by desire. If

you

> exercise that choice, you have exercised free will. If you dont,

you

> havent. Bill Gates isnt exercising free will, he is simply

succumbing

> to one or more of the desires that present themselves in his mind.

> Witness the following statements:

> 1) In the Bhagavad Gita, I interpret the following statement as

> hinting at the above idea (though not directly) - lust is

essentially

> desire:

> "The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of

> contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed

into

> wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world"

>

> 2) Jiddu Krishnamurti - one of the few people that have ever lived

> whose life was moksha in itself:

> "Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man's

> pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure

> observation without direction, without fear of punishment and

reward.

> Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the

evolution

> of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation

> one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in

the

> choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity"

>

>

> It is only after we realize what free will is that it makes sense

to

> discover it in astrological charts. Even if someone tells that x

and

> y houses are those of free will - what is the free will that they

> show?

>

> Sundeep