Karma vs. Spiritual Practice

[Guest guest]

Dear Ivar,

 

Thanks for your valuable comments. These (my views) are ofcourse are

very open to discussion, philosophical issues, no clear-cut

scientific test is possible to see exactly what is right or wrong.

 

When you have mentioned; "One can transcend and change everyting" do

you include a change in the course of events?

 

"Spiritual Practices" I use to include transcending, or according to

my thinking if properly done, spiritual practices and transcending

are the same. I am not using the surface level, broad sense of the

term "Spiritual Practice".

 

I have heard a great saint say; "Your chart reflects your physiology

at the moment of birth", his following words implying that if one is

living in a certain manner one need not worry so much about the

birth chart. According to my view, we predict or trace trends in our

lives based on this. One may get involved in an accident, as

indicated in his chart. His car may be slightly scratched or totally

destroyed. This I beleive is due to the free-will of the native, how

he is living his life, his choices, and his rate of evolution. In

the great classic "Bhagavat Gita" (I am not a religious person in

the classical sense) on these matters, it is indicated that man has

free will, but one can not really know how much free will one has,

or what has happened based on free will or past karma. So we can

never be sure, but if there is free will, and if we select the

correct choices, and follow the correct path, then there is

possibility that life's unfolding for us may be changing. After all

life can not be fully and exactly pre-determined, for human beings,

who have the faculty to think and decide. E.g. all our decisions do

not seem to be predetermined, maybe some are, but not all.

 

One further note is about why there is karma coming back to us. My

thinking (again based on Classics) is that this is due to guide us

towards evolution in the correct direction or path. So if somebody

is already choosing the correct path, why should All Merciful God

punish him when and if there is no apparent reason left to do so. I

mean we should not take karma as just punishment based on wrong

things done in the past. There are ways to reduce at least the

impact of karma and punishment, e.g. to win God's Grace, as pointed

out to, in maybe all religious/spiritual texts.

 

Again some humble thoughts, just for discussion,

Best wishes,

Sabri.

 

 

vedic astrology, "Ivar Verploegh"

<i.d.verploegh@z...> wrote:

>

> > by spiritual practice one

> > evolves and grows out from ones chart at a certain pace.

>

> That's simply not possible, because a chart describes you, it

> doesn't influence you. Thus if you adopt a spiritual practice,

that

> will be described by the chart. If you do pious deeds and thus

> destroy bad karma, that will be described by the chart. The

concept

> which you describe is often supported by followers of spiritual

> traditions, but from a rational and astrological point of view it

is

> simply not possible. When a person's life seems better than their

> chart indicates, it is usually due to the astrologer's lack of

> expertise, a wrong time of birth etc. One can transcend and change

> everything, but not the birth chart. No exceptions, not even for a

> fully liberated saint.

>

> A chart doesn't describe good and bad karma, it simply describes

> you, what you do and what happens to you.

>

> Ivar

[Guest guest]

> When you have mentioned; "One can transcend and change everyting"

do

> you include a change in the course of events?

 

When I was a child death terrified me. Now, after reading Bhagavad-

gita and having spiritual realizations, death doesn't frighten me at

all. I'm not even disturbed much when family members die. So in a

sense I have transcended my karma.

 

But if you ask me if one can change what is indicated in the birth

chart, I say no, that is not possible. The chart (not necessarily an

astrologers analysis) is a perfect description of your life. Both at

birth and at the end of it.

 

> I have heard a great saint say; "Your chart reflects your

physiology

> at the moment of birth",

 

That is true, but transits and dashas keep describing what happens

in your life.

 

 

> One may get involved in an accident, as

> indicated in his chart. His car may be slightly scratched or

> totally destroyed.

 

No, that's not possible. If one's car is slightly scratched, that

will be shown in the birth chart. One may need to be a very expert

astrologer to find those indications (vargas, transits, Systems

Approach, Krishnamurti Paddhati etc.), but they are always there.

 

Below is a quote from my website www.jyotirveda.nl:

 

Astrology is nothing more than a reversed history book. Rather than

someone's past being described, one's future is described in

symbolic language, and an expert astrologer is capable of

translating that symbolic description, namely the birth chart, into

an understandable delineation. It's not that through a certain

physical influence stars and planets make things happen in our

lives. We could expect such a direct influence from the Moon and the

Sun: the Moon can cause tidal waves and the Sun skin cancer.

 

But these are influences that are not analysed in astrology. In

astrology the planets and planetary positions are completely

symbolic. Indeed, many of the astrological factors are mathematical

points in space, like the Nodes of the Moon, the Ascendant,

Midheaven etc.

 

As the words of a history book are not the cause of the wars that

are described in them, so also the stars and planets are not capable

of making anything happen in our lives. We basically create our own

future, and the planets describe it.

 

The universe we live in is a cosmic clock. It has many more dials

than our clocks, but the principle is the same. There's even a dial

with the fastest orbit, the Ascendant, followed by the Moon. And

just like it's not the clock influencing our behaviour (such as

sleeping and rising) but generally describing it, planets do not

influence us in a physical way but describe us. There might be a

physical influence (gravitational pull, radiation, etc.) even from

far removed planets such as Saturn, but that influence would be

different from the language of the stars that astrology actually is.

It doesn't matter whether a clock is hanging high on a tower or is

tied to your wrist. Similarly it doesn't matter whether a planet is

close by or far away.

 

To a large extent astrology is based on the assumption or experience

that the soul inside the body is eternal, and doesn't merely exist

in this present lifetime, but has already experienced innumerable

lifetimes, and will continue existing eternally. The free will that

we utilized in our last lifetime, can thus certainly have

consequences for this present lifetime. But with that free will we

can make certain choices in this lifetime (which will be visible in

the reversed history book) with which we can make sure the negative

consequences will decrease, and the positive will increase.

 

All of us have free will, which means that we make our own choices

and decisions. What we do with our free will has consequences, and

these consequences make up our fate. Generally we consider things

that happen to us as fate and things that we make happen free will,

but from a higher perspective it's all a matter of free will. It's

our own decision to cling to things, other persons and our physical

body and thus lament when any of these are taken away from us.

 

It is also important to realize that from the viewpoint of the

spiritual evolution of the soul periods of material misery are

sometimes the greatest blessing. When the soul, out of its own free

will, desires spiritual growth, this may mean tough lessons are

neccesary. The connection between suffering and evolution is

sometimes hard to see, but it is wise to have faith in the higher

wisdom of the soul and God.

 

Ivar

[Guest guest]

> If a person has benefic influence on Lagna he is bound to do

> good Karmas than the one with Mars and Saturn influencing his

> personality.

 

On my website (www.jyotirveda.nl) I have included the chart of a great

spiritual teacher (to go to the analysis, click on the chart at the top of

the astrology page). In my view, and that of thousands of bhakti yogis,

this man has constantly engaged in transcendental activities. So should we

forgo discussing his chart because he transcended and changed it anyway?

Or do we accept that perhaps his evolution in previous lives allowed him

to take birth at an extremely auspicious moment, creating such a beautiful

birthchart, describing his wonderful spiritual life?

 

Some astrologers even discuss the chart of Lord Rama or Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu, God Himself. What would be the use of that if a chart would

only depict karmaphala, i.e. the fruits of pious and sinful activities?

 

Ivar

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Praveen & Vishwanatham and others

here are my $0.02 worth on this subject..

How does one behave in this world is determined by the

Dharma trikona, first being the lagna & 5th being the

poorva punya. Now coming to the 9th, Look for the

movable and Dual signs the 9th house which dictates

the direction that one should follow does not cast any

aspect to the Lagna. noe for fixed signs it does have

a rasi aspect but it is also the Bhadaka rasi. hence

you see there are several obstacles that restrains one

from doing good unless the 9th lord is strong and well

placed. also 9th represents the Guru(Teacher)who shall

guide and elevate one to a better plane. in the

absence of such combination, the 5th house takes the

drivers seat which equates to past Karma. there fore

there is some contribution from past Karma which can

be over ridden by a strong 9th house factors. Also

ones mind ( Mo) need to be strong to over come any

temptations. see Mo is the natural signifactor of AL

which is how one is perceived. If the AL OR Mo is

influenced by benefics, then one tend to make a wise

decision and he will be perceived as a venerable soul

which really means that

Free will also does drives one. Just as 9th protrcts

the Lagna 9th from AL protects one's Image. so it is

important that these houses has benefics or strong

which can tell about one's spiritual abilities..

 

Lakshman

--- vishwanatham <vishwanatham wrote:

 

>

> Hare Rama Krishna

>

> Dear Sri Praveen,

>

> Agreed that we all speculate and nothing wrong with

> that. Though, as

> you said 'sabhda' is superior to 'anumana'. So,

> learning from a Guru

> (GuruMukha) is important.

>

> In any theory we present, Prayer to God should Not

> become redundant,

> is the only submission i like to make. i mean when

> and if we say,

> everything is predestined, then God worship provides

> what?

>

> We can discuss this hours on, if you are the same

> Praveen i know from

> Mumbai!

>

> regards

> viswanadham

> P.S: 98202 28271

>

> vedic astrology, Praveen

> Kumar

> <chunnu2001@v...> wrote:

> > Brilliant ! That is exactly my idea I have been

> pondering over for

> years. Then concept of Karmaphala (consequences of

> own deeds) too

> becomes questionable. When everything is predestined

> then what we can

> mean by self and own karma. If a person has benefic

> influence on

> Lagna he is bound to do good Karmas than the one

> with Mars and Saturn

> influencing his personality. Even a great yogi's

> life is discussed

> through his horoscope which itself means that there

> is nothing like

> self generated things. There is a loose concept like

> partial

> freewill. Late Shri B.V.Raman too has talked about

> semi independent

> karma. But then, we enter a complex and

> controversial area with no

> proof in support thereof. We have ample proofs of

> destiny but,

> perhaps, none supporting Karmaphala. Now someone can

> ask, "why this

> destiny then and how it functions". But then, we can

> better leave it

> like many other unresolved mysteries of the world

> rather than putting

> forward inexplicable theories.

> >

> > The only strong point favouring Karmaphala lies in

> the concept

> of 'Shabda Praman' in Indian Philosophy. In Indian

> Philosophy we find

> mention of 'Shabda Praman', that is words or actions

> of superior ones

> are Praman (evidence) in itself and need not be

> substantiated by any

> further proof. Hence the great Rishies (seers) who

> had given us

> astrology which works, also preached about

> Karmaphala as the basis of

> astrology spanning over more than one births. Today

> we don't have any

> scientific explanation for planetary influences and

> so for Karmaphala

> too.

> >

> > But still, the problem remains unresolved.

> >

> > Praveen Kumar (Mumbai)

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

 

Dear Lakshman,

 

That is a lot of money here!

 

You should have noticed that all the badhaka sthanas aspect the Lagna

by their Rasi drishti.

 

My focus is also on the 9th house, from where the 'free will'ed

actions activate the entire life (all the houses). And we can start

experiencing a lot of freedom.

 

Thanks for your post.

 

regards

viswanadham

 

vedic astrology, Lakshman Brahma

<lbrahma> wrote:

> Dear Praveen & Vishwanatham and others

> here are my $0.02 worth on this subject..

> How does one behave in this world is determined by the

> Dharma trikona, first being the lagna & 5th being the

> poorva punya. Now coming to the 9th, Look for the

> movable and Dual signs the 9th house which dictates

> the direction that one should follow does not cast any

> aspect to the Lagna. noe for fixed signs it does have

> a rasi aspect but it is also the Bhadaka rasi. hence

> you see there are several obstacles that restrains one

> from doing good unless the 9th lord is strong and well

> placed. also 9th represents the Guru(Teacher)who shall

> guide and elevate one to a better plane. in the

> absence of such combination, the 5th house takes the

> drivers seat which equates to past Karma. there fore

> there is some contribution from past Karma which can

> be over ridden by a strong 9th house factors. Also

> ones mind ( Mo) need to be strong to over come any

> temptations. see Mo is the natural signifactor of AL

> which is how one is perceived. If the AL OR Mo is

> influenced by benefics, then one tend to make a wise

> decision and he will be perceived as a venerable soul

> which really means that

> Free will also does drives one. Just as 9th protrcts

> the Lagna 9th from AL protects one's Image. so it is

> important that these houses has benefics or strong

> which can tell about one's spiritual abilities..

>

> Lakshman

> --- vishwanatham <vishwanatham@r...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Hare Rama Krishna

> >

> > Dear Sri Praveen,

> >

> > Agreed that we all speculate and nothing wrong with

> > that. Though, as

> > you said 'sabhda' is superior to 'anumana'. So,

> > learning from a Guru

> > (GuruMukha) is important.

> >

> > In any theory we present, Prayer to God should Not

> > become redundant,

> > is the only submission i like to make. i mean when

> > and if we say,

> > everything is predestined, then God worship provides

> > what?

> >

> > We can discuss this hours on, if you are the same

> > Praveen i know from

> > Mumbai!

> >

> > regards

> > viswanadham

[Guest guest]

Brilliant ! That is exactly my idea I have been pondering over for years. Then

concept of Karmaphala (consequences of own deeds) too becomes questionable.

When everything is predestined then what we can mean by self and own karma. If

a person has benefic influence on Lagna he is bound to do good Karmas than the

one with Mars and Saturn influencing his personality. Even a great yogi's life

is discussed through his horoscope which itself means that there is nothing

like self generated things. There is a loose concept like partial freewill.

Late Shri B.V.Raman too has talked about semi independent karma. But then, we

enter a complex and controversial area with no proof in support thereof. We

have ample proofs of destiny but, perhaps, none supporting Karmaphala. Now

someone can ask, "why this destiny then and how it functions". But then, we can

better leave it like many other unresolved mysteries of the world rather than

putting forward inexplicable theories.

 

The only strong point favouring Karmaphala lies in the concept of 'Shabda

Praman' in Indian Philosophy. In Indian Philosophy we find mention of 'Shabda

Praman', that is words or actions of superior ones are Praman (evidence) in

itself and need not be substantiated by any further proof. Hence the great

Rishies (seers) who had given us astrology which works, also preached about

Karmaphala as the basis of astrology spanning over more than one births. Today

we don't have any scientific explanation for planetary influences and so for

Karmaphala too.

 

But still, the problem remains unresolved.

 

Praveen Kumar (Mumbai)

-

Ivar Verploegh

vedic astrology

16, 11, 2004 7:29 PM

[vedic astrology] Karma vs. Spiritual Practice

> by spiritual practice one > evolves and grows out from ones chart at a certain

pace. That's simply not possible, because a chart describes you, it doesn't

influence you. Thus if you adopt a spiritual practice, that will be described

by the chart. If you do pious deeds and thus destroy bad karma, that will be

described by the chart. The concept which you describe is often supported by

followers of spiritual traditions, but from a rational and astrological point

of view it is simply not possible. When a person's life seems better than their

chart indicates, it is usually due to the astrologer's lack of expertise, a

wrong time of birth etc. One can transcend and change everything, but not the

birth chart. No exceptions, not even for a fully liberated saint. A chart

doesn't describe good and bad karma, it simply describes you, what you do and

what happens to you. IvarArchives:

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