Free will, karma and moksha

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha Rao ji/ Pt. Sanjay Rath ji,

 

I read the article on Chara karaka(Sanjay Rath) on this site and have

a few questions related to it. Could you please help?

 

1. Is the exercise of Free will the main cause of karma and human

suffering ?

2. Can one attain moksha faster by surrendering one's free will and

submitting to divine will?

3. How do you put (2) into actual practice? We have to make decisions

everyday. Is it really possible to give up free will?

4. If (2) and (3) are indeed possible, what is the relevance of

jyotish as a science in this context?

 

Thank you for your time.

Sharada.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sharada-ji,

 

Though this question is not for me, let me venture in with my

opinions.

 

Questions (1), (2) and (3) can (and should) be properly explained

only by self-realized a.k.a Sat Gurus. If you cannot find one in

person, you should read books by one. You can try books in plain

language from the Maths of Bagavan Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna

Paramahamsa, Mahavatar Babaji, Divine Life Society (Swami

Sivananda), Sringeri or Kanchi math, etc. There are many living

SatGurus in India (and probably elsewhere in the world aswell), and

if your desire for SatGuru is deep enough, you will automatically

find a Guru either in person or through His' teachings.

 

Jyotish (astrology) is an apara-vidya like ayurveda (medicine) or

Vyakarana (grammer). Jyotish is mundane knowledge - not the

transendental knowledge of Self and may not even be needed for

anyone that surrenders oneself totally to God. However, Jyotish does

have its own application in life as any other apara-vidya.

 

For one indulging in agamic (ritualistic) worship and performing

vedic karmas, knowledge of Jyotish is needed to perform the various

pujas/rituals at the appropriate time.

 

regards,

-Siva.

 

vedic astrology, "shar1904" <shar1904>

wrote:

> Dear Narasimha Rao ji/ Pt. Sanjay Rath ji,

>

> I read the article on Chara karaka(Sanjay Rath) on this site and

have

> a few questions related to it. Could you please help?

>

> 1. Is the exercise of Free will the main cause of karma and human

> suffering ?

> 2. Can one attain moksha faster by surrendering one's free will

and

> submitting to divine will?

> 3. How do you put (2) into actual practice? We have to make

decisions

> everyday. Is it really possible to give up free will?

> 4. If (2) and (3) are indeed possible, what is the relevance of

> jyotish as a science in this context?

>

> Thank you for your time.

> Sharada.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sharada,

Sorry for intruding here (this question was not addressed to me),

but your questions are of infinitely great interest to me as well. I

have done some analysis myself of the works of people who in my

opinion have likely attained Moksha - for e.g. Jiddu Krishnamurti

(this is astrologically verifiable as well). Based on that I have

some perhaps interesting conclusions which I am bringing forth in

this thread since they are relevant to the subject of this thread,

with the hope that others may review and contradict/refine them and

thereby increase at least my knowledge.

 

Specifically my understanding has now become that "free will" is

essentially a contradiction in terms. "Will" is mostly never

really "free". What most people mean when they say that they have

free will is that they have the CHOICE of acting according to the

DESIRE that is UPPERMOST in their minds. The ability to make that

choice is called free will. This is at the level of consciousness

that is the ego - the tightly interrelated grid of thoughts,

memories, perceptions of objects etc that are accessible to your

consciousness when you are awake. What you have to understand is that

these DESIRES themselves are nothing more than REACTIONS of your EGO

to SENSATIONS. What your EGO thinks is CHOICE (to respond to the

uppermost desire) is not really a choice at all - the desires

themselves are not free - they are reactions of your ego itself! Even

the uppermost desire is uppermost because the EGO selects it as the

uppermost! So when you have free will it only APPEARS free to your

EGO because it cant see how it itself acts (just like you cant feel

how your blood flows, or you cant feel how your body exchanges carbon

dioxide for oxygen at the inner surface of your lungs). The goal of

proceeding toward enlightenment is to be able to SEE for "yourself"

that all your DESIRES and your CHOICES are ALL nothing more than

REACTIONS - they are NOT free. Then you will have TRUE choice - the

option to do nothing and simply observe them and how your body and

ego react to them. THAT LEVEL of observation is BELOW the EGO. An

average human being has ZERO experience at this level. What this

level is, I cannot exactly say. There are perhaps several levels.

Astrology helps you know what is experienced at each level. However,

if you truly want to EXPERIENCE it, you have to begin the process of

detachment from the EGO level and move downward. I try to understand

and use astrology to find out my deeper levels while I am still

working on how exactly to experience them. The AK or Atmakaraka is

the deepest level, I think.

 

Hope this has helped - and all positive and negative comments are

more than welcome

 

Sundeep

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep,

 

Good analysis. Yes, at the ultimate level, "free will" is

meaningless, since our ultimate "destiny" is enlightenment. This is

true for all creatures, in my view, that we will all ultimately seek

and obtain salvation. How long it takes for each of us - whether a

few lifetimes or a few million lifetimes - as well as how we go

about doing this, is, of course, different.

 

That being said, if we look at free will, in the much narrower

context of a single lifetime, or even shorter than that, say, the

free will to respond to a choice - then, yes, I believe it makes a

lot of sense to consider that it exists. What really gets my goat is

when people try to take the easy way out, by claiming that they

were "destined" to do so, rather than to put in the effort it takes

to do the right thing! But in the context that you are talking

about, agreed, even our choices are really reactions of ourselves.

 

One particularly simple example I once read, was to consider a cow

tied to a pole. It is "destined" to remain within the circle defined

by the length of the rope being the radius of the circle - but it

has "free will" as to what it does within that circle. I think of

that analogy whenever I feel tempted to quit on a difficult job by

blaming fate for my laziness, and get to work again!

 

Venkat

 

vedic astrology, "vedicastrostudent"

<vedicastrostudent> wrote:

> Dear Sharada,

> Sorry for intruding here (this question was not addressed to me),

> but your questions are of infinitely great interest to me as well.

I

> have done some analysis myself of the works of people who in my

> opinion have likely attained Moksha - for e.g. Jiddu Krishnamurti

> (this is astrologically verifiable as well). Based on that I have

> some perhaps interesting conclusions which I am bringing forth in

> this thread since they are relevant to the subject of this thread,

> with the hope that others may review and contradict/refine them

and

> thereby increase at least my knowledge.

>

> Specifically my understanding has now become that "free will" is

> essentially a contradiction in terms. "Will" is mostly never

> really "free". What most people mean when they say that they have

> free will is that they have the CHOICE of acting according to the

> DESIRE that is UPPERMOST in their minds. The ability to make that

> choice is called free will. This is at the level of consciousness

> that is the ego - the tightly interrelated grid of thoughts,

> memories, perceptions of objects etc that are accessible to your

> consciousness when you are awake. What you have to understand is

that

> these DESIRES themselves are nothing more than REACTIONS of your

EGO

> to SENSATIONS. What your EGO thinks is CHOICE (to respond to the

> uppermost desire) is not really a choice at all - the desires

> themselves are not free - they are reactions of your ego itself!

Even

> the uppermost desire is uppermost because the EGO selects it as

the

> uppermost! So when you have free will it only APPEARS free to your

> EGO because it cant see how it itself acts (just like you cant

feel

> how your blood flows, or you cant feel how your body exchanges

carbon

> dioxide for oxygen at the inner surface of your lungs). The goal

of

> proceeding toward enlightenment is to be able to SEE

for "yourself"

> that all your DESIRES and your CHOICES are ALL nothing more than

> REACTIONS - they are NOT free. Then you will have TRUE choice -

the

> option to do nothing and simply observe them and how your body and

> ego react to them. THAT LEVEL of observation is BELOW the EGO. An

> average human being has ZERO experience at this level. What this

> level is, I cannot exactly say. There are perhaps several levels.

> Astrology helps you know what is experienced at each level.

However,

> if you truly want to EXPERIENCE it, you have to begin the process

of

> detachment from the EGO level and move downward. I try to

understand

> and use astrology to find out my deeper levels while I am still

> working on how exactly to experience them. The AK or Atmakaraka is

> the deepest level, I think.

>

> Hope this has helped - and all positive and negative comments are

> more than welcome

>

> Sundeep

[Guest guest]

Dear Venkat,

I actually mean something different from what you have

comprehended. What I said IS actually applicable at the much narrower

level too. I dont mean simply that the overall basic directions of

life are "bounded" by karma and within those bounds the smaller

issues are actually choices (which is what I comprehend from your

writing). I am saying that that is a misconception. The truth is that

consciousness is like an onion, the topmost layer being the ego. Most

people's existence is completely at this level. Free will is a

misconception that the ego has. Even it's smallest actions are not

free - including the choice to be EITHER hardworking OR lazy. BOTH

are reactions. True free will is only in whether you want to empower

the ego or not, and this comes at least one level down in the "onion"

analog of consciousness, because that level has to view the ego as

external (so it can decide how much to empower it). It is incorrect

to look at actions of the ego and judge them as free or not free.

None are free.

 

Witness the following verbatim statement by Jiddu Krishnamurti, which

I think corroborates what I say. Only JK hasnt characterized who is

doing the observation, the ego or something lower than that. I think

the observation he talks about is not being done by the ego, but a

more core level of consciousness. JK's writings are hard to fathom

simply because he doesnt inform people of this lowering of "I" from

ego to some lower level. The "I" doing the observation is something

that can perceive the ego as external to it, and hence that "I" is

not the ego. BTW, you can check for yourself that JK got Moksha -

Ketu and Venus in the 12th from Karakamsa (exalted Sun AK in Rasi).

Karakamsa is Sagittarius, 12th is Scorpio (directly satisfies BPHS

for final emancipation):

 

"Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man's

pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure

observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward.

Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution

of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation

one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the

choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity"

 

 

Sundeep

[Guest guest]

Hello Siva:

 

I've asked these same questions over and over and over again and

yours is the best reply I've ever received.

 

No Jyotisha can make a prediction, if they can, itdefeats the purpose

of destiny created by Lord Brahma (the creator) when we're born.

 

Even if some Jyotisha makes a prediction, theprediction itself cannot

CHANGE the destiny nor the actual manifestation destiny of that

individual as only Lord Vishnu/Krishna (the operator) can decide how

the destiny will manifest itself through ourmundane lives.

 

And, even if some Jyotisha figured out a way to change destiny or

change the means by with destiny manifest itself, NO Jyotisha can

change the will of Lord Mahesh/Siva (the destroyer) as ALL living

beings have to die/destruct and the cycle of life and birth continues.

 

To conclude, Jyotish CANNOT change the destiny of a person AND

Jyotish CANNOT change the way destiny manifest itself.

 

It is useless to run after Jyotishs and "Godmen/Godwomen" as it

accomplishes NOTHING except temorary hopes of "raj yog" and "this

yog" and "that yog" that thes Jyothish/Godmen/women predict until

the individual realizes that destiny is unpredictable and EVEN MORE,

if destiny could be predicted, it cannot be changed.

 

So people, forget all this mumbo-jumbo about navamsha chart, hora

chart, trishamsa chart, this chart, that chart and all the million

other charts that these Jyotish invent as these charts CHANGE NOTHING.

 

Lord Krishna told us to perform righteous karma in fulfilling our

dharma towards our spouses, kids, parents, society, etc. and that is

all that we need to do--perform righteous Karma to fulfill our dharma

AND forget all these Jyotishis and God-people.

 

Mukund

 

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "schinnas" <schinnas>

wrote:

> Dear Sharada-ji,

>

> Though this question is not for me, let me venture in with my

> opinions.

>

> Questions (1), (2) and (3) can (and should) be properly explained

> only by self-realized a.k.a Sat Gurus. If you cannot find one in

> person, you should read books by one. You can try books in plain

> language from the Maths of Bagavan Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna

> Paramahamsa, Mahavatar Babaji, Divine Life Society (Swami

> Sivananda), Sringeri or Kanchi math, etc. There are many living

> SatGurus in India (and probably elsewhere in the world aswell), and

> if your desire for SatGuru is deep enough, you will automatically

> find a Guru either in person or through His' teachings.

>

> Jyotish (astrology) is an apara-vidya like ayurveda (medicine) or

> Vyakarana (grammer). Jyotish is mundane knowledge - not the

> transendental knowledge of Self and may not even be needed for

> anyone that surrenders oneself totally to God. However, Jyotish

does

> have its own application in life as any other apara-vidya.

>

> For one indulging in agamic (ritualistic) worship and performing

> vedic karmas, knowledge of Jyotish is needed to perform the various

> pujas/rituals at the appropriate time.

>

> regards,

> -Siva.

>

> vedic astrology, "shar1904" <shar1904>

> wrote:

> > Dear Narasimha Rao ji/ Pt. Sanjay Rath ji,

> >

> > I read the article on Chara karaka(Sanjay Rath) on this site and

> have

> > a few questions related to it. Could you please help?

> >

> > 1. Is the exercise of Free will the main cause of karma and human

> > suffering ?

> > 2. Can one attain moksha faster by surrendering one's free will

> and

> > submitting to divine will?

> > 3. How do you put (2) into actual practice? We have to make

> decisions

> > everyday. Is it really possible to give up free will?

> > 4. If (2) and (3) are indeed possible, what is the relevance of

> > jyotish as a science in this context?

> >

> > Thank you for your time.

> > Sharada.