20th mumbai meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol

May 30, 2003

Dear Sunil, Amol mandar and Tanveer,

If I may intervene, I think Atmakaraka is just that, Chara karaka for Atma, as

Sun is Natural Atmakaraka. This position is obtained by a graha by having the

highest number of degrees pased in a Rasi. Its results are to be seen wrt

Navamsha position( Karakamsha). Some confusion arises when we try to associate

it with Atman, which is something else. Otherwose why would Jaimini

Sutras-Adhyaaya1 Pada3(Beginning of the results Karakamsha start with various

physical(Mostly) ailments or dangers faced by the Jataka?

No dount astrologers try to attribute Atman to Atmakaraka, but I think this is

probably not the right approach.

Chandrashekhar.

----

Dear Amol,I shouldnt be answering your question since it requires very high

spiritual astrological knowledge as your question is very imp, also I am just a

beginner. Mr Tanvir answered it to u and let me also try to attempt to answer it

so that i can be corrected in the process of my

understanding/misunderstanding.As I understand from personal experience the

teachings of AK need not be painful. the AK planet has a goal in a way, like

for Sun one has to be humble and let go of ego, for Ven it is to let go of lust

- my words might not be apt so dont take me as verbatim. U can refer to

Sanjayji's article on AK for diff planets.Now the goal or desire of the AK

planet is higher learning for the physical to understand the soul purpose, this

can be much debated I feel as different systems have diff understandings. the

physical need not be as some say in tune with the souls higher purpose hence we

have karma, lessons or whatever one calls them to reach the purpose of the

soul.If one doesnt master, realise the purpose of the AK planet / soul then

sufferings can happen. They say that AK planet will give results in dasa and

antar dasa, this is what i understand. Now my AK is Sun, and my Sun is exalted.

Yrs back this dasa came and was the best dasa for me in terms of fame and

acheivements, also during the start of this dasa if i remember correctly I

started learning martial arts under an able master who first taught us to be

humble and never to feel superior of our knowledge. It was daily ingrained in

me so much and that me and my colleagues understood the meaning of it and we

were always humble, it became like second skin. The dasa was very good apart

from a few mishaps which always happens in ones life. Last year the antar was

there of Sun and I was forced to be egoistic (wonder if anyone is forced )and

thereby lost some close friends and business opportunity, which shows that I

totally havent mastered humbleness.so round this off, if one learns the lesson

of the AK planet before hand , one masters it truly then I feel there should be

no pain, since at the end of the day every planet is here to teach us something

that we havent realised.Hope this helps and i stand to be corrected in my

thinking in a nice manner ))Best wishes,Sunil John--- In

vedic astrology, "amolmandar" <amolmandar> wrote:> Dear

Dasguptaji and Other Gurus> > Please excuse me for this silly and unwanted

interruption. I have a > doubt regarding AK.> > You have mentioned here that

"teachings by AK will be very very > painfull." If AK is AtmaKarak,how can it

create pains. It is supposed > to elevate the person on Atamic level,Spiritual

level. So if at all > teaching by AK is destined,should it not be on spiritual

level?> > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.> > AmolMandar> > > > Archives:

vedic astrologyGroup info:

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May 31, 2003

Dear Amolmandar,

One has to bear in mind that the rules regarding AStmakaraka are different than

general rules. Why do you think,malefic should give high spiritualism ? And why

Benefics give lower levels. Because in avastha they are weak.

Again you will see that relation to the Karakamsha have to be considered here

too, though not mentioned. Otherwise different results Like fear from Dog,

susceptibility to itch would not be given for placement of AK in different

Navamsha. If you remember I had told you once that sages have a habit of not

repeating fundamentals again and again. They think that the student will apply

principles already taught to what has been said later on.

Again if you read Jaimini Sutras Adhaaya1 Pada2 sutra 69 you will find that KETU

in Karakamsha gives the Jataka Moksha, Mars sutra 111 = Logician,Rahu sutra 78=

worshipper of evil spirits and Durga etc.

So weare again back to square one that is a chart and its analysis cannot be

made unless all the factors are taken into consideration.

In the Chart of Shrila Prabhupada, Natal Lagna is aspected by Saturn and

Jupiter, Ketu is in 9th conjunct Sun and Jupiter (who is also Lagnesh). Venus

is debilitated and lord of 6th in 10th with exalted Mercury. Lagna has Gulaka

Kala and Mandi and 12th is aspected by Mars and moon. Mars also aspects the

Lagna. So Lagna is aspected by Lagnesh, lord of 5th Lord of 9th and Saturn the

philosopher when added to this Rahu becomes Atmakaraka and placed in Upapada

Lagna, one turns to spiritualism. Had Rahu not been weak( and thus

Atmakaraka)being in Parakrama; he might have become a great Lawyer. At least

this is the way I see this.

You will find lots of people with Rahu Atmakaraka not turning to spritualism at all.

So back to square one. Do not try to mix up Atman with Atmakaraka. Sun is the

Naisargika Atmakaraka, so by extention of that logic those with exalted or sun

in last degrees of ahouse should be spiritual, sadly this is never the case.

Do study BPHS and Jaimini Sutras in depth before coming to snap decisions. I am

certain you will understand this as your study progresses.

Chandrashekhar.

----

Respected ChandrashekharjiSorry for stretching the discussions and everyone's

patience but sir I am still not able to understand the exact nature of AK. At

the address http://srath.com/lesson/atmakaraka.htm it is clearly mentioned that

"If a malefic planet is the ätmakäraka, it indicates a high level of spiritual

development whereas a benefic planet as the ätmakäraka indicates a relatively

lower level. Example: Rahu was the ätmakäraka for Srila Prabhupada and

Ramakrishna Paramhamsa." Moreover the title of the article is Atmakarak (The

Soul) that indicates AK indeed is related to Atma(the soul). If it is just

'AK' no additional semantics attached to it, in that case can we take it as

no.1 graha in the chart? Should we consider Ak,AmK,BK.....and all, as the rank

names for the chart? Please excuse me in case I have gone beyond my limits in

puting up doubts.Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.AmolMandar--- In

vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar Sharma" <boxdel> wrote:>

Dear Sunil, Amol mandar and Tanveer,> If I may intervene, I think Atmakaraka is

just that, Chara karaka for Atma,> as Sun is Natural Atmakaraka. This position

is obtained by a graha by having> the highest number of degrees pased in a

Rasi. Its results are to be seen> wrt Navamsha position( Karakamsha). Some

confusion arises when we try to> associate it with Atman, which is something

else. Otherwose why would> Jaimini Sutras-Adhyaaya1 Pada3(Beginning of the

results Karakamsha start> with various physical(Mostly) ailments or dangers

faced by the Jataka?> No dount astrologers try to attribute Atman to

Atmakaraka, but I think this> is probably not the right approach.>

Chandrashekhar.> > ----> >

vedic astrology> Friday, May 30, 2003 10:23:01 PM> To:

vedic astrology> [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai

meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol> > Dear Amol,> > I shouldnt be answering

your question since it requires very high > spiritual astrological knowledge as

your question is very imp, also I > am just a beginner. Mr Tanvir answered it to

u and let me also try to > attempt to answer it so that i can be corrected in

the process of my > understanding/misunderstanding.> > As I understand from

personal experience the teachings of AK need not > be painful. the AK planet

has a goal in a way, like for Sun one has > to be humble and let go of ego, for

Ven it is to let go of lust - my > words might not be apt so dont take me as

verbatim. U can refer to > Sanjayji's article on AK for diff planets.> > Now

the goal or desire of the AK planet is higher learning for the > physical to

understand the soul purpose, this can be much debated I > feel as different

systems have diff understandings. the physical need > not be as some say in

tune with the souls higher purpose hence we > have karma, lessons or whatever

one calls them to reach the purpose > of the soul.> > If one doesnt master,

realise the purpose of the AK planet / soul > then sufferings can happen. They

say that AK planet will give results > in dasa and antar dasa, this is what i

understand. Now my AK is Sun, > and my Sun is exalted. Yrs back this dasa came

and was the best dasa > for me in terms of fame and acheivements, also during

the start of > this dasa if i remember correctly I started learning martial

arts > under an able master who first taught us to be humble and never to >

feel superior of our knowledge. It was daily ingrained in me so much > and that

me and my colleagues understood the meaning of it and we > were always humble,

it became like second skin. The dasa was very > good apart from a few mishaps

which always happens in ones life. > Last year the antar was there of Sun and I

was forced to be egoistic > (wonder if anyone is forced )and thereby lost some

close friends and > business opportunity, which shows that I totally havent

mastered > humbleness.> > so round this off, if one learns the lesson of the AK

planet before > hand , one masters it truly then I feel there should be no pain,

> since at the end of the day every planet is here to teach us > something that

we havent realised.> > Hope this helps and i stand to be corrected in my

thinking in a nice > manner ))> > Best wishes,> > Sunil John> > > --- In

vedic astrology, "amolmandar" > <amolmandar> wrote:> >

Dear Dasguptaji and Other Gurus> > > > Please excuse me for this silly and

unwanted interruption. I have a > > doubt regarding AK.> > > > You have

mentioned here that "teachings by AK will be very very > > painfull." If AK is

AtmaKarak,how can it create pains. It is > supposed > > to elevate the person

on Atamic level,Spiritual level. So if at all > > teaching by AK is

destined,should it not be on spiritual level?> > > > Thanks a lot for your Time

and Space.> > > > AmolMandar> > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor> > > > >

> Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info:

vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-> > ........ May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu

|| > > Terms of

Service.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-. May Jupiter's light shine on

us ....... Your use of

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May 31, 2003

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June 1, 2003

Dear sanjayji,

Thank you for an illuminating discourse on Atmakaraka and Aatma. I think I was

not able to convey my meaning. I was referring to atma as in parmatman. My

other mail to Amol is about this. My proposition is that atmakaraka can lead

one to renunciation or final bliss depending on yogas formed by various factors

but is not atma itself, as far as Jyotish is concerned.

I was also trying to tell that merely because atmakaraka is a malefic planet,

one does not necerssarily have a yoga for Moksha or become a Deeksha Guru, as

was being implied. Even otherwise, there are two streams of thoughts amongst

acharyas as to whether there are 7 or 8 Charakarakas. "AaTmaidk> klaidi_anR

_aaeg> sPtanam:qana~va .

Again some opine that Rahu replaces the blank space left when two plabnets get

same chara Karakatva, whereas some go by the order of higher or lesser degrees.

Again I wanted to convey that mere one planet being Atmakaraka by itself does

not mean great renunciates, as the strengths of its house vargas etc. should be

considered. There was also a thread going on that Malefics only can grant the

emancipation, and this is why I said that one should not equate Atmakaraka with

Atman.

Again in Shrila Prabhupada's chart Atmakaraka is in Libranavamsha. for which

Adhayaaya 1 Pada 2 sutra 12 says " la_aevai{aJym! ". whereas sutra 69 says "

ketaE kEvLym! ". This would indicate that benefics joining the Karakamsha would

give final emancipation, the goal of all pious men.

Therefore what I was trying to emphasis was that mere presence of one planet as

Atmakaraka in one particular Karakamsha does not mean an elevated one

spiritually.

If I am wrong kindly correct me.

With warm regards,

Chandrashekhar.

----

|brihaspatim varenyam|

Dear Chandrasekharji

No it is not so. The Atma is like the Sun but it is not the Sun that is why the

Sun is the naisargika Atmakaraka and for all purposes shall represent the

native (self), Father (through whom the atma comes) as well as the ultimate

father (Vishnu)...among Aditya's I am Vishnu extolls Sri Krishna in the Gita.

This is its nature i.e. the nature of the atman is like that of pure light, a

spark is what the rishi's say. Chara atmakaraka is the representation of the

jivatma or what we call the individual atman. This is also of the nature of

pure light and the color of the light shall be one of the colors of the visible

spectrum (7) or darkness (1) and that is why there are eight chara atmakaraka

for animate beings. Imagine there is a room where two lamps are burning - one

of pure white light and the other is say red. The brighter the red light is, to

that extent the white light is suppressed or ignored. The jivatma is like that

red (or some color) light that tends to *bask in the glory* of its own light

and this is ahamkara. The brighter the light of the individual atma, the lower

shall be its focus on the other pure light in the room. Thus, Rahu does not

have any original light as a chara karaka and is darkness, so such a jivatma is

always looking at the pure light of the paramatma.

Now coming to the point about karakamsa, interaction between the atman (jiva)

and the prakriti can only be through the laws of dharma. The Jiva having

evolved from Brahma, is pramarily of Rajas guna and has a lot of desire as

Rajas guna is associated with desire. No individual jivaatman, no matter how

spiritually evolved it maybe, can claim to be Vishnu (paramatma) because of

this. The interaction of such an atma represented by the Atmakaraka with nature

is seen in the signs and divisions it is placed in. We all know the basic result

of such an interaction between two entities, where one is of Rajas

predominantly, shall always be painful. the pain is not due to the nature of

the signs etc but is due to the interaction of the AK with the sign while being

in Rajas guna. Had the guna of the atma changed through severe tapasya or

blessings, then the interaction becomes very beneficial for both the jiva and

nature. Lets say it was the jivatma of Parasara muni, then it has evolved from

the Rajas guna displayed in childhood when Parasara wanted to kill all the

Rakshasa who killed his father to pure satva when he forgave them due to the

blessings of his grandfather Sri Vasistha.

To the point about many people with AK Rahu not being spiritual - About

one-eighth portion of the world population shall have rahu as AK, so this

factor alone cannot determine the factum of the native being spiritual.

Spirituality is at many levels and each level has to be examined from the

concerned factors in the chart. Take the same case of Sri Prabhupada. Here the

AK is Rahu, but such a Rahu is (a) well placed in Aquarius having sthana bala -

atma bala is there (b) related to Upapada - renunciation of spouse will be the

key to renunciation and so many other factors. Next is the physical

manifestation. For this look at the Arudha Lagna. Here Mercury and venus

determine strong spiritual inclinations being in the 6th from AL. So, the

physical manifestation will be in the worship of Krishna (Mercury exalted) and

Radha (Venus debilitated with neechabhanga..very crucial).

Let us take another chart. Say Sri Caitanya mahaprabhu. Here AK is Saturn. So

can we say that Sri Caitanya was less spiritual than Prabhupada?!! Definitely

not. Here the theme is "taking sorrow - giving joy". Here the AK Saturn is (a)

not very well placed in Scorpio but is in a Kendra and (b) Not directly linked

to the main Arudhas. So can we say Sri Caitanya was less spiritual? What are we

missing out? Look at the karakamsa and see the merger of the AK and Ista...you

will find this in the chart of Sri Krishna as well. There the AK is Sun in Leo.

There is a lot lot more to this thread, but for all practical purposes, the AK

is the representative of the individual Jivatma in a chart as the Ista

(paramatma) shall also be represented by another planet. It is a difficult job,

but then Jyotish is all about understanding these symbols.

~ om tat sat ~

Yours truly,

Sanjay Rath

---------------------------

H-5, B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India

+91-674-2436871 http://srath.com

---------------------------

Chandrashekhar Sharma

[boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk]Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:18 AMTo:

vedic astrologySubject: Re: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai

meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol