Interpreting Vimsottari Dasa upto Six Levels (to Krishna)

[Guest guest]

Dear Krishna,

 

> I remember reading some where that the stronger of moon and lagna is > to be

used for determining the vimsottari dasa of a person. Most > astrologers seem

to be intent upon using the moon exclusively. This > may work well at the level

of analysis that most people use which > typically stops at the third level.

 

Moon based Vimsottari dasa is given natural preference in the natal charts of

human beings. But Vimsottari dasa started from other references can work

better. Surya nakshatra, janma nakshatra (Moon star), lagna nakshatra, utpanna

nakshatra, kshema nakshatra, aadhaana nakshatra and maandi nakshatra are some

of the standard alternatives (and JHora commercial version gives all of them).

I threw some more light on when to use what, when I taught Vimsottari dasa at

the SJC weekend workshop on Oct 4-5, 2003.

 

Moon based Vimsottari dasa is given a natural preference in natal charts of

human beings and used unless lagna is much stronger than Moon. However, in

mundane charts and annual charts, we do a fair comparison of the strengths of

lagna and Moon.

 

For example, I was checking the daily tithi pravesha chakra (DTPC) of somebody

recently went to meet a girl and her parents. In the DTPC of the day of his

meeting with the girl and family, the 5th lord Mercury and 9th lord Saturn

conjoined in the 11th house in navamsa, giving a raja yoga and enabling him to

go and see a girl. The 5th lord Mercury was the ruler of the day (hora lord at

the time the day started). Interestingly, the girl's DTPC of the day also had

5th lord and 9th lord conjoining (in 7th in her case) in navamsa and the 5th

lord of navamsa was the ruler of the day again. That's besides the point

though. When I was checking the compressed daily Vimsottari dasa of DTPC, I was

expecting Saturn and Mercury dasas to run during the few hours he spent with the

girl and family. I was expecting Saturn dasa (9th lord) to run when he met the

family and Mercury dasa (5th lord!) when he spent time talking to the girl.

 

When I looked at Moon based Vimsottari dasa, it did not make sense. When I

looked at Lagna Vimsottari, it turned out that the first half of the meeting

had Saturn dasa and the second half had Mercury dasa, just as I had expected.

Lagna had 4 planets in quadrants from it, includihng Jupiter, and Moon had only

2 planets in quadrants. Naturally, lagna Vimsottari dasa would dominate.

 

Bottomline:

 

All variations have their own meaning. All can be used. But the stronger one will dominate.

 

However, give preference to Chandra Vimsottari. Use others only if the another

reference is much stronger than Moon. There are additional guidelines which I

mentioned at the workshop. Jupiter and Saturn in a quadrant from a reference

make it extra strong for use in phalita and ayur jyotish (respectively).

 

In annual charts, mundane charts etc, do a fair comparison using the rules and

pick other references over Moon even if they are marginally stronger (and not

much stronger).

> 1. If more than one starting point is possible, and we are just using > the

strongest influence among a multiplicity of possible starting > points to

determine the dasas, isn't it logical that when you go to > such a fine

analysis as the sixth level of analysis you will > encounter a high level of

inaccuracy?

 

Yes. You better determine which dasa works better and then do any analysis, whether fine or gross.

> 2. Also, can you please quote which texts prescribe using Surya lagna > to

analyze Rasi chart? It is surprising to me that you give Surya > lagna

precedence over both lagna and chandra lagna. If this is a > strategy that you

developed on your own, it would be interesting to > know what kind of

statistics you used to come to this conclusion.

 

It is not my own "strategy". It is from our tradition. Pt. Sanjay Rath mentions

it (use of Sun-Moon-lagna) as "Rath's tripod rule" in several of his books. He

gives his rationale in his book "Vimsottari & Udu Dasa".

 

Why are you surprised? If the trends in longer periods are based on soul and its

relation with the universe (Sun) and the trends in shorter periods are based on

mind and its interaction with the world (Moon), why should it be so surprising?

> Best,> > Krishna

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha,

 

1. I do not agree with your explanation that one influence dominates

over the other in all respects. In Jyotish, as fas as I understand,

influences have a cumulative effect i.e., if you have a feeble

malefic influence and a strong benefic influence on a certain aspect

of life, both influences will manifest themselves, with the stronger

benific influence having a lasting impact on the native. Similarly,

in the case of vimsottari dasa system, as in your example, a strong

lagna and a weak moon means that at a coarse level of analysis, when

events can have lasting impact on a person's life, the vimsottari

dasa with the lagna as the starting point may make more sense.

However, when you are talking about a level of dasa analysis, where

in each "deha antardasa" lasts only a few hours, the vimsottari dasa

as counted from the moon may also make a difference. For example, I

might be doing extremely well in most facets of life and still have a

headache for a few hours on a given day. For a more lasting event,

such as marriage or death, these events have a lasting impact on the

native which will show up at higher (coarser) levels of dasa analysis.

 

2. Consider the number of combinations that you propose: six levels

of dasas crossed with many different possible starting points, you

have to wonder at what predictive strength such an analysis will

have. Surely, you can find an explanation for any given effect, after

the fact, by conveniently looking up a starting point that you like

and analyzing up to a level you find convenient. However, from the

standpoint of being able to predict future events, such a system (in

my opinion) does not have much value.

 

3. From your comments, I gather that the only one (or at least the

main proponent) to support your thesis of using the "Surya Lagna" for

analyzing the Mahadasas is Pt. Rath. From my limited knowledge of his

writings, I have gathered that he is trying to popularize many

obscure and esoteric means of analyzing the horoscope. I wish him

(and you) luck in your endeavors, but I do not have sufficient

evidence to form an opinion on his methods. As a dabbler in

astrology, I prefer to stick to the trodden path in my explorations.

Can you find a more main line source to confirm your usage?

 

Best,

 

Krishna

 

 

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao"

<pvr@c...> wrote:

> Dear Krishna,

>

> > I remember reading some where that the stronger of moon and lagna

is

> > to be used for determining the vimsottari dasa of a person. Most

> > astrologers seem to be intent upon using the moon exclusively.

This

> > may work well at the level of analysis that most people use which

> > typically stops at the third level.

>

> Moon based Vimsottari dasa is given natural preference in the natal

charts of human beings. But Vimsottari dasa started from other

references can work better. Surya nakshatra, janma nakshatra (Moon

star), lagna nakshatra, utpanna nakshatra, kshema nakshatra, aadhaana

nakshatra and maandi nakshatra are some of the standard alternatives

(and JHora commercial version gives all of them). I threw some more

light on when to use what, when I taught Vimsottari dasa at the SJC

weekend workshop on Oct 4-5, 2003.

>

> Moon based Vimsottari dasa is given a natural preference in natal

charts of human beings and used unless lagna is much stronger than

Moon. However, in mundane charts and annual charts, we do a fair

comparison of the strengths of lagna and Moon.

>

> For example, I was checking the daily tithi pravesha chakra (DTPC)

of somebody recently went to meet a girl and her parents. In the DTPC

of the day of his meeting with the girl and family, the 5th lord

Mercury and 9th lord Saturn conjoined in the 11th house in navamsa,

giving a raja yoga and enabling him to go and see a girl. The 5th

lord Mercury was the ruler of the day (hora lord at the time the day

started). Interestingly, the girl's DTPC of the day also had 5th lord

and 9th lord conjoining (in 7th in her case) in navamsa and the 5th

lord of navamsa was the ruler of the day again. That's besides the

point though. When I was checking the compressed daily Vimsottari

dasa of DTPC, I was expecting Saturn and Mercury dasas to run during

the few hours he spent with the girl and family. I was expecting

Saturn dasa (9th lord) to run when he met the family and Mercury dasa

(5th lord!) when he spent time talking to the girl.

>

> When I looked at Moon based Vimsottari dasa, it did not make sense.

When I looked at Lagna Vimsottari, it turned out that the first half

of the meeting had Saturn dasa and the second half had Mercury dasa,

just as I had expected. Lagna had 4 planets in quadrants from it,

includihng Jupiter, and Moon had only 2 planets in quadrants.

Naturally, lagna Vimsottari dasa would dominate.

>

> Bottomline:

>

> All variations have their own meaning. All can be used. But the

stronger one will dominate.

>

> However, give preference to Chandra Vimsottari. Use others only if

the another reference is much stronger than Moon. There are

additional guidelines which I mentioned at the workshop. Jupiter and

Saturn in a quadrant from a reference make it extra strong for use in

phalita and ayur jyotish (respectively).

>

> In annual charts, mundane charts etc, do a fair comparison using

the rules and pick other references over Moon even if they are

marginally stronger (and not much stronger).

>

> > 1. If more than one starting point is possible, and we are just

using

> > the strongest influence among a multiplicity of possible starting

> > points to determine the dasas, isn't it logical that when you go

to

> > such a fine analysis as the sixth level of analysis you will

> > encounter a high level of inaccuracy?

>

> Yes. You better determine which dasa works better and then do any

analysis, whether fine or gross.

>

> > 2. Also, can you please quote which texts prescribe using Surya

lagna

> > to analyze Rasi chart? It is surprising to me that you give Surya

> > lagna precedence over both lagna and chandra lagna. If this is a

> > strategy that you developed on your own, it would be interesting

to

> > know what kind of statistics you used to come to this conclusion.

>

> It is not my own "strategy". It is from our tradition. Pt. Sanjay

Rath mentions it (use of Sun-Moon-lagna) as "Rath's tripod rule" in

several of his books. He gives his rationale in his book "Vimsottari

& Udu Dasa".

>

> Why are you surprised? If the trends in longer periods are based on

soul and its relation with the universe (Sun) and the trends in

shorter periods are based on mind and its interaction with the world

(Moon), why should it be so surprising?

>

> > Best,

> >

> > Krishna

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

[Guest guest]

|| Om Gurave Namah ||

Dear Krishna,

> 3. From your comments, I gather that the only one (or at least the

> main proponent) to support your thesis of using the "Surya Lagna"

for

> analyzing the Mahadasas is Pt. Rath. From my limited knowledge of

his

> writings, I have gathered that he is trying to popularize many

> obscure and esoteric means of analyzing the horoscope. I wish him

> (and you) luck in your endeavors, but I do not have sufficient

> evidence to form an opinion on his methods. As a dabbler in

> astrology, I prefer to stick to the trodden path in my

explorations.

> Can you find a more main line source to confirm your usage?

 

Refer to Brihat Prashara Hora Shastra in Santanam translation

chapter chp. 74. Gives the Sudharshana Chakra. The Tripod principle

Sun-Moon-Lagna i.e Soul-Mind-Body priciple is derived from it. Pt.

Sanjay Rath's Guru taught him how to interpret those chakra. The the

six levels are based in the same priciple. I think (Cannot get the

exact referece), Varahamihira, Vaidyanath etc have also used the same

technique. If you pay attention or learn from people who used it you

will get more such gems from the Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra.

 

 

-Warm Regards,

S. Prabhakaran

[Guest guest]

Dear Sanjay,

 

Thank you for your post. I gather from your comments that the Brihat

Parasara Hora Sastra does not directly state this fact in relation to

the vimsottari dasa system, but it is an "interpretation" that comes

from Pt. Rath (and originally from his Guru). Unless you can point to

a specific statement from some source which also supports this

creative interepreation with respect to the vimsottari dasa, it seems

a little far fetched. There are enough obscure statements which can

be interpreted in many ways in the ancient texts without creating new

hurdles.

 

Best,

 

Krishna

 

> || Om Gurave Namah ||

> Dear Krishna,

> > 3. From your comments, I gather that the only one (or at least

the

> > main proponent) to support your thesis of using the "Surya Lagna"

> for

> > analyzing the Mahadasas is Pt. Rath. From my limited knowledge of

> his

> > writings, I have gathered that he is trying to popularize many

> > obscure and esoteric means of analyzing the horoscope. I wish him

> > (and you) luck in your endeavors, but I do not have sufficient

> > evidence to form an opinion on his methods. As a dabbler in

> > astrology, I prefer to stick to the trodden path in my

> explorations.

> > Can you find a more main line source to confirm your usage?

>

> Refer to Brihat Prashara Hora Shastra in Santanam translation

> chapter chp. 74. Gives the Sudharshana Chakra. The Tripod principle

> Sun-Moon-Lagna i.e Soul-Mind-Body priciple is derived from it. Pt.

> Sanjay Rath's Guru taught him how to interpret those chakra. The

the

> six levels are based in the same priciple. I think (Cannot get the

> exact referece), Varahamihira, Vaidyanath etc have also used the

same

> technique. If you pay attention or learn from people who used it

you

> will get more such gems from the Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra.

>

>

> -Warm Regards,

> S. Prabhakaran

[Guest guest]

Dear Krishna,

 

I will try to answer the difficult questions you raised, within the limits of my

knowledge and ability.

 

> 1. I do not agree with your explanation that one influence dominates > over

the other in all respects. In Jyotish, as fas as I understand, > influences

have a cumulative effect i.e., if you have a feeble

> malefic influence and a strong benefic influence on a certain aspect > of

life, both influences will manifest themselves, with the stronger > benific

influence having a lasting impact on the native. Similarly,

> in the case of vimsottari dasa system, as in your example, a strong > lagna

and a weak moon means that at a coarse level of analysis, when > events can

have lasting impact on a person's life, the vimsottari > dasa with the lagna as

the starting point may make more sense.

 

Moon-based Vimsottari dasa shows the experiences of the mind. It shows the

mind's changing perspective of the world. It shows how the mind experiences the

world around it with changing time.

 

Lagna-based Vimsottari dasa shows the actions of one's persona/intellect in the

world, while Moon-based one shows the experiences of the mind.

 

Strictly speaking, both should make sense at the coarse as well as fine levels,

irrespective of the "lasting impact".

 

But, I suggest that we stick to Moon-based Vimsottari dasa for now, atleast in

the natal charts of human beings.

 

> However, when you are talking about a level of dasa analysis, where > in each

"deha antardasa" lasts only a few hours, the vimsottari dasa > as counted from

the moon may also make a difference. For example, I > might be doing extremely

well in most facets of life and still have a > headache for a few hours on a

given day. For a more lasting event, > such as marriage or death, these events

have a lasting impact on the > native which will show up at higher (coarser)

levels of dasa analysis.

 

Well, events like marriage or death show up in higher (coarser) levels, as well

as the lower (finer) levels. If I got married at 9:30 pm on a specific day, the

finer periods on the day too must be conducive.

 

But short-term events like headaches are seen only in finer levels and not in

higher levels. There you are right.

> 2. Consider the number of combinations that you propose: six levels > of

dasas crossed with many different possible starting points, you

 

No, you are misrepresenting me. In human charts, just use Moon-based Vimsottari

and you will be all set. You don't even have to use others.

 

In extremely rare cases, the experiences of the mind (shown by Chandra

Vimsottari) will be vastly divorced from the real life events. For most human

beings, there is clear correspondence between the two and hence Chandra

Vimsottari dasa will work, both at the coarser level and the finer one.

 

So I am just proposing one dasa and not hiding behind multiple starting points.

I am giving a clear way to judge each of the six levels. Most astrologers use

lagna as the reference for all levels, but end up getting one planet for

antardasa, one for for pratyantardasa, one for sookshma-antardasa and so on.

For example, if Jupiter-Saturn-Moon-Mercury sookshma gave a result, why wasn't

it Jupiter-Mercury-Saturn-Moon or Jupiter-Moon-Mercury-Saturn instead?

 

What I have presented is a gift from our tradition and this approach gives a

specific approach (reference) for each level. Instead of increasing confusion

as you allege, it actually brings clarity!

 

Please scrutinize the logic I presented in the two examples and do the same with

the other examples presented at the class (if you can). Then, point out any

arbitrariness in the logic (if you find it).

> have to wonder at what predictive strength such an analysis will > have.

Surely, you can find an explanation for any given effect, after > the fact, by

conveniently looking up a starting point that you like > and analyzing up to a

level you find convenient. However, from the > standpoint of being able to

predict future events, such a system (in > my opinion) does not have much

value.

 

This is simply your opinion. Elders in our tradition - e.g. Pt. Jagannath Rath,

grandfather of Pt. Sanjay Rath - rectified dasa sesham (i.e. rectified Moon's

longitude) based on known events in life and made accurate predictions of

future events upto the day and/or hour. He did it without computers and used

solar degree based years (which are tough to compute by hand).

 

If you want to dismiss what I taught, it is not my loss. I am simply passing on

what I learnt, in the hope that we will oneday have astrologers of the caliber

of Pt. Jagannath Rath. If that is not destined to happen, I will fail in my

efforts. It's as simple as that. Karma (action) is in my hands, but phala

(result) is not.

 

> 3. From your comments, I gather that the only one (or at least the > main

proponent) to support your thesis of using the "Surya Lagna" for > analyzing

the Mahadasas is Pt. Rath. From my limited knowledge of his > writings, I have

gathered that he is trying to popularize many > obscure and esoteric means of

analyzing the horoscope. I wish him > (and you) luck in your endeavors, but I

do not have sufficient > evidence to form an opinion on his methods. As a

dabbler in > astrology, I prefer to stick to the trodden path in my

explorations. > Can you find a more main line source to confirm your usage?

 

Sanjay Prabhakaran ji already answered you. Parasara said in BPHS (read the

chapter on Sudarsana Chakra) that a chart must be analyzed from Surya lagna

(Sun as a reference), Chandra lagna (Moon as a reference) and lagna. When

Maitreya enquired why then some people analyze charts only from lagna, Parasara

explicitly said that that is incorrect. He said all the 3 references must be

used.

 

Our tradition adds further perspective to this by associating long-term trends

with soul (Sun), mid-term trends with mind (Moon) and short-term trends with

body (lagna).

 

If you are unhappy with this, you may use Sun, Moon and lagna (i.e. all the

three reference) in judging all the levels - mahadasas, antardasas and

pratyantardasas. But, if you want to use only lagna and be happy with that, you

sure are sticking to the "trodden path", but to a path that was dismissed by

Parasara!

> Best,> > Krishna

 

It's always a pleasure to talk to one who makes you think. Thank you, Krishna!

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

||Om Brihaspataye Namah||

 

Dear Narasimha,

 

> If you are unhappy with this, you may use Sun, Moon and lagna

(i.e. all the three reference) in judging all the levels -

mahadasas, antardasas and pratyantardasas. But, if you want to use

only lagna and be happy with that, you sure are sticking to

the "trodden path", but to a path that was dismissed by Parasara!

 

I make a friendly protest here! The path of judging the levels only

with respect to lagna cannot have been dismissed outright by Sage

Parasara!! Seeing with respect to Lagna is only one perspective and

it is like trying to characterize a three-dimensional crystal using

only one dimension!! That is why Sage Parasara prescribed more

references for judging the Vimsottari Dasha levels.

 

Any predictive method has three levels: long range predictions

(stable), medium range predictions (somewhat stable) and short range

(dynamic) predictions. You have done well to illustrate the dynamic

predictive potential of Vimsottari Dasha. May Jupiters light

continue to shine on you. But I wonder if you could give an example

illustrating the predictive value of 6-level Vimsottari Dasha? That

is, show how events on the time scale of 1~2 hours can be predicted

using a real example? Otherwise, as your other mails on this topic

imply, the value of this is only for birth time correction.

 

regards

Hari