Dear Sanjayji And ZoranJi

June 12, 2003

Dear Sanjayji and Zoranji,

Thanks for ur thoughts at the onset and perhaps this will be my last repons=

e to the topic of death in all regards. I will try to clarify my stand on it=

and I do not wish to imply that Im right or wrong. Or that anyone in this w=

orld is right or wrong since the defination of right or wrong is a relative =

one in this world of ours. Everyone wants to prove his or her point irrespec=

tive and often we find it hard to distinguish what is right and what is wron=

g. But neways here are some of my final thoughts. I have learned much from t=

his fourm. But what Im trying to seek and find Ive never found. I have been =

glad to have come across people of your calibre and thoughts and do thank ev=

eryone around to have shed their thoughts. But I must admit what Im seeking =

and trying to search and came to this fourm in search of, I did not find, in=

fact the idea has been overshawdowed lot of conflicting and confusing though=

ts.

A bit about myself,I have been brought up in a very spritual family. A fami=

ly where the Main pilot of the ship is God. Infact as a kid there had been t=

imes with me when I tried to change seats and was often ment with disappoint=

ment. But I did not consider that a diassspointment in my own sense because =

it taught me the power of God and how the world was maintaned in an order be=

cause of His magical power and Magical work. Let us concentrate on DEATH now=

..

[Rath:] What is premature about the statement Visti made? Has he said

> > that the native dies because of that combination, and if so, are we

> > not supposed to find out the reasons and causes of death or apamrityu. =

[ums]: Yes, thats is wot which is excatly implied, infact that is what u ha=

ve also understood. Now to get to the question why this is premature. Dear R=

athji, we are humans and mortals at the underlying level. Just as its not po=

ssible to create life with any sort of scientific technologies avalible. I f=

irmly belief that death is something of a smilliar concept. Lets start with =

life to explain death. Perhaps I can better give my insights into it. What i=

s brith? It is something that happens as a result of Godly intervention. A h=

uman cannot be created in labs or with scietific calculations. The process o=

f cloning was tried. But a few months back the first clone 'dolly' was termi=

nated, since dolly suffered birth defects, got ill and was going to die newa=

ys. At this the famouse scientiest "Dr.Richard Seed" the father of cloning c=

lamined quote "While this was a great breakthrough in genetic engineering. I=

bow in scilenece of the power of the so called God I did not really believe=

in uptil this point in time. Today I realize that even though science can a=

chieve great breakthroughs with technology one cannot create human beings li=

ke the way nature creates them". This was excatly what was said by richard s=

eed during the failure of the cloning experiment.

A few months later CONIAD a qubec company tried to claim to the world that =

they were scucessufl in clonning humans and on inquiry it was a big scandal =

and everything came out to the open world that it was a big LIE. So there we=

go about birth. It is not possible inspite of technology and mathemactical =

calculations to make a human. Since God is one step ahead of us humans.

Now coming back to Death. Inspite of science not being able to create a hum=

an how can science claim to do anything with death. We can postpone death bu=

t not conqure it. But lets see how astrology fits into the picture.

There are two kinds of joytish in this world. One who are money minded and =

charge money and the others who are spritual and charge no money what so eve=

ry no matter who the person is or what condition he/she is in. There are spr=

itual people like Sai baba. Who people go to get cured and inspite of the wo=

rld turning materaliztic they dont charge money. There are some village astr=

ologers I have seen who have been very accurate with their predictions and t=

hey dont charge a DIME weather I come from the family of the kings or I come=

from the family of the paupers. It is these people that I admire with all m=

y heart and soul why because inspite of the change of the yuga they have hel=

d onto their spritualistic tendencies. NOW if SOMEONE like that predicted ab=

out death, which they never DO, atleast out of all the astrologers Ive been =

friends and spoken too and talked about. They will say that watch out for so=

and so time, but they will never mention about DEATH. I asked them why they=

wouldnt say, they gave me some replies to which I bow down and respect with=

all my mind. The following were some of my replies as to Why these humble p=

eople wont talk about death.

1. They said in the great classics it is mentioned that to dwell with the L=

ORD Of YAMA is the greatest sin one can do to astrology. Pravati Devi Cursed=

the astrologer because he predicted much about Lord Shiva and this was not =

ment to be the case with astrology. It was a tool given to guide us through =

life. But the morden astrologer has made it a tool to scare people and loot =

money from people by scaring them about DEATH. The great astrologer told me,=

that DEATH was a Godly intervention just as BIRTH. He said no matter what h=

umans tried They could never CONTROL BIRTH OR DEATH. Let alone be able to pr=

edict death. The great astrologer told me While birth was predictable becaus=

e it was considered a joyious occassion and it was the hall mark of evolutio=

n. Death was a different concept. DEATH was the end of our life on this plan=

ets and the breakage of all bonds and it was the transmigration of the soul.=

It was a time when the soul was judged from the right and wrong. And to INT=

ERFERE during such a process of judgmenet from the devine and the immortal b=

eings by humans would constitute one of the greatest disgrace of astrology. =

2. The great Astrologer also told me that while many of the people in the w=

orld were busy making money and charging for their astrologrical constulatio=

ns. These were the excat things that went against the art of astrology. He e=

xplained to me either U can treat astroloy as a science or a spritual tool. =

He said, if I were to treat astrology as science then I should have to agree=

with the limiations on any other science, just like a Dr Does his work and =

operation and leaves the result to God so should the scientific practionaer =

of astrology also. But if U treat it as a spritual science which it the TRUE=

essence of astrology. Then one should follow the spritual methods. He says =

no where in the books of astrology it is written that an ASTROLOGER should p=

redict DEATH. He said that the rules are given in the books of BHPS and Jaim=

ini where in certain planets give DEATH and so and So. But such rules are to=

be interepeted with extreme caution.

IF U look at the posting of vistiji, just by looking at a few combinations =

he has concluded that either the native will suffer from bad dieases or even=

death. Do U think Sanjayji and Zoranji that having gone through a few mintu=

es or even hours one can draw such conlucsions just by mere placments. If th=

at were to be the case then dont U think so many deaths could be avoided or =

rich people would pay a huge sum of money to prevent dieases such as cancers=

and death from striking them. But since this is not the case, we must agree=

that the concept of DEATH is a very complex enimga for us humans. There hav=

e been some instances where people have predicted DEATH of other individuals=

.. This is not because of ASTROLOGY, this is rather because of INTUITION. The=

re have been a close friend of mine and infact I too have had some expreinec=

e in my life when a family friend of ours was bound to fly one day and I had=

the lousiset feeling and when I looked into the mirror the mirror told me t=

o stop them from flying. This took quite a bit on my part to conveninece my =

family friend. But I was able to convenince them. Later that night the singl=

e engine plane they were going to take crashed people in the plane were kill=

ed. But my family friends were saved. What SHOULD I call this, I was just 14=

during that point and had nothing and no clue about astrology whatsoever. S=

ome other expereinces have occured to me during the course of my life, and I=

do not wish to mention them since I do not wish to boost. But the above I h=

ave given because I truly feel the power of God.

Death as Zoranji mentioned is a crossing point to the other dimension. And =

I very much agree with that. But dwelling into the scrects of DEATH is total=

ly wrong. This is not because I fear DEATH, but because I think it is the wr=

ong thing to do.

I ask put forth a simple question, As u have stated that lottery is differe=

nt from death, I had put a posting regarding if an astrologer should charge =

or not. I wonder rather than making money out of the poor suffering people o=

r people who come for consulation. An astrologer should bet money on lottery=

tickets spend time in calculating things and win himself a lottery, see the=

astrologer can be really rich without even having to charge money to the po=

or clients infact he can make a living out of it. And if that is considered =

wrong then why should the predictions of DEATH be any different, even when i=

t is mentioned that its incorrect to dwell and work in the working of the LO=

RD OF YAMA.

Dear Sanjayji as u mentioned if one spends time then one can predict lotter=

y results then how can visitji without having spent much time could have pre=

dicted about DEATH or SERIOUS TROUBLE. Dont U think that is a time consuming=

process too, Infact I think an astrologer should spend more time than the p=

redictions of lottery if he/she is predicting about death since if someone d=

oes not win a lottery that wouldnt be too much of a problem as someone who i=

s aniticpating death and death doesnt happen.

We should try to understand our limitations. There is no religious book tha=

t I have come across atleast that says humans have the power to predict abou=

t DEATH of themselves let alone of others. I have asked scholars from variou=

s fields and I have asked the religious peoples of various faiths. And in ev=

ery religion the most fundamental concept that comes to light is

"BELIEVE in ONE GOD and having FAITH IN HIM IN TOTALITY and DO onto others =

what U would onto urself. I have not come across a single religious scriuptu=

re that says that humans have the right to predict about someones death. We =

are no doublty anywhere close to Christ, Or Buddha or the 10 Gurus of Sikhs =

or Prophet Mohammed. Yet we are playing god and we are trying to act like th=

em. We should realise that there is a lot of difference between them and us =

mortal humans. They were on a different plain of self awarness and thought w=

here as we are on a different plane of thought. This is simply proved by the=

fact that we charge money for our consultations we charge money for anythin=

g we do in regards to religion weather they be poojas or anything else. So t=

he plain and thought is very different. They on the other HAND inspite of th=

e hardships of those times brought people together and associated with the p=

oor people in the most of humility. I go to the Mosque and I see people pray=

to God, I go the Gurdawara and I see people humbly cleaning the shoes of th=

e others whom they don't know to do `seva' and do seva at the langar. Why? B=

ecause I feel they show compassion towards other humans and consider them eq=

ual.

But what purpose does predicting DEATH serve? If U say it makes someone hap=

py, then I must disagree. If U go to a mother whose son is dying and U tell =

the mother. Dear mother Im a very Good astrologer and I have research into a=

ll of astrology and I can predict death. And Ur son is going to die at so an=

d so time and Day. But U tell the mother don't worry mother Ur son is not go=

ing to DIE he is just going to move on into another dimension. Do u think it=

would give an consolation to the mother. I don't think so, but if u are Dr=

.. U put ur best efforts in trying to save the son and say the Rest is upto G=

od. There is a good possibility that the son might, just might live through =

the time and God might help him.

Death is something that God decides for Us "Jitni Chabi Ram nai Bare Utna C=

hale Kelona" And it is Only God that can shorten it or increase its span. Co=

ming down again to directly address ur question of Prematurity in predicting=

Death. Then there are two points I use against it.

1.Firslty, if u consider Joytish a science which most of us do in the Kali =

Yoga then every science has in bult errors. The probabitly is more so in the=

case of astrology. The thing is with Mechanical Engineering as U are if Im =

not mistaken is that we calculate and try to fix things that how we save the=

company and make it a profit. But inspite we at times are prone to errors a=

nd the bridges fall and the machines breaks. Now if a machine breaks this mi=

ght not cause much harm, there might be death (which again is Godly interven=

tions) but on a general scale lots of machines breaks and lots of engineerin=

g calculations go wrong. But people don't die in every instance. Engineering=

and Medicience improves the quality and so does astrology. But one should l=

ook and practice things within LIMITS. That's the key word LIMITS. Engineers=

can create missles yet when we practice engineering we are bound by the cod=

e of ethics not to do such foolish things. When we practice Medicinece we ar=

e again bound by similar codes. And what is the fundamental ethics of this c=

odes. "IT IS TO PRESERVE LIFE, and to improve the QUALITY OF LIFE and evolut=

ion". Which does not make any sense to me in astrology when we predict about=

DEATH, I see no logic in how that imporves the quality of life. Its somethi=

ng that is going to happen which everyone knows but learning about how it ha=

ppens or when it happens I don't see how it imporves the QUALITY OF LIFE. Th=

is leave no difference between a person who preaches evil and deals with dea=

th. Now that is the scientific approach. If we practice Scienfic astrology b=

ased on mere calculations and 0 intuition then we should have some kind of c=

ode of ethics too. If the great Maharishis Such as Jaimin and Prashara have =

mentioned about DEATH. Then they definitely have mentioned about the code of=

ethics that govern such predictions.

One cannot just stare into a chart, generalize combinations, leave intuitio=

n at home and say "U are going to Die or serious Diease or Death" since the =

problem is if this situation back fires, it is going to case much harm to th=

e person who this is being told too. Not only it is disrespectful but it is =

also immoral and unethical. If mathematical calcualkations can go wrong in t=

he case of machines or bridges then so can they in the case of DEATH. But th=

e harm in the latter case is much more than the former.

And now if we are not a scientific astrologer as I said before we fall into=

the spritutual astrology section. This again has arguments against it. Poin=

t to me one religious BOOK and one religious scripture written by the Prophe=

t Muhammaed or Christ or the Sikh Gurus that state "HUMANS are AT A LIBERTY =

TO PREDICT DEATH" our own or let alone other people on the street who seek h=

elp.?????? So this kind of astrology is out of the question too. Many astrol=

oger in the present Day charge huge sum of money why, no books of astrologer=

state that, Infact if we are called Guru's then we should only accept GuruD=

akshanas for any kind of Knowldege we impart of give or anything for that ma=

tter. And if a clinet doesn't pay a dime we should consider it our luck. Jus=

t as we pray without being responsible for the Fruits That God should give u=

s or we get. In a similar fashion if we consider astrology divine we should =

not charge and get a real job and help people on partime basis. But that is =

not the case. Yeah there are astrologers who would justify this by saying th=

at the money that comes in through consultations and publications is used di=

rectly in terms of religious means and purposes. Which is no doubt a Good th=

ing. But the question is Does all this money go to religious purposes and th=

e bottom line is. Does all this money eventually help the poor person at the=

other end?? That's the big question. Since if we cannot allievate suffering=

we have no right to cause it. As it is its in plenty.

Lets take an anology how scriptures and things can be interepreted very wro=

ng and along very different lines. In the 60s The Hippi Culture was at a ful=

l fledge there were some good things but there were some few who took on the=

logo of "Hare Rama Hare Krishan" and they started smoking weed and preashin=

g the message of LOVE!! Do u think this was mentioned anywhere. I don't thin=

k so. In the present context people point fingers towards the great Gurus an=

d Saints and say they had 5 wifes so why cant we!!!

The problem is we all try to do what we like and interpret things as we lik=

e. In the case of Death and Astrology, Some astrologers pull it beyond limit=

s and totally curb HUMAN FREE WILL. Make it look like we are puppets and tha=

t planets dicatete everything and there is no Room for God. Though there are=

things like marriage, profession, some minor problems in regards to health,=

children and so on can be predict well by astrologer. The higher dimension =

such as suffereing of higher kind and death and past birth and next brith ar=

e not the realm of astrology. Why? Because as I mentioned God is in charge o=

f all these things and HUMAN free will is capable of much effort.

Say if I were too look at a chart of some thief I would say that he is goin=

g to commit much harm in life and to people. But what happens if that does n=

ot becomes the case, what happens if the person turns out to be the next Val=

miki and writes something religious. Lance Amstrong the cyclist had cancer h=

e fought through it and came out at the winning end. This is not because of =

astrologer or planets. Though we might try our best to relate it to chart, a=

nd to be honest we will definitely find ways to relate to it, using our 9 pl=

anets and 60 divisionals so far atleast who know how many more will come. Bu=

t yeah we could relate to it. But the thing would be that 99% of the time we=

would do this as an excerise of reasech and take existence charts and circu=

matsnces and fit everything into it. Not prior to it. That's why astrologica=

l research has limitations.

My advice to Astrologers and All the learned members.

Look into a chart, follow the basics, sit down in medictations, ask to God =

weather I am and should I be able to predict this and so and so. Once the ku=

ndalni shakti comes alive one intuitions gives way to prediction once when t=

houghts become strong then predict rather than look at combinations in 100 c=

harts and try to relate that to the 101 chart since it might be a 50 – 50 se=

nerio. If the predictions are good then no harm, but if the predictions are =

wrong. Then the clinet might curse the astrologer so bad, that even God migh=

t have second thoughts on trying to evaluate this Karma of the astrologer.

I will end it here and this is my last posting in the group. Since I haven'=

t really found what I have been looking for. Most of the replies Ive got in =

regards to the few posting I have done namely:

1.If an astrolger should charge money or not

2. If an astrologer should predict death or has the ablitiy for the same or=

not.

Have been meet with different responses. The part about money where Ramadas=

ji has mentioned that has been the most touching to me. Infact I am totally =

in one with Ramadasji on that one and infact I can relate very well to his r=

esponse.

It was unfortunate that Ramadasji did not comment on the death part. Infact=

in many of his other posting I have never really come across him predicting=

about death.

I had done a chart posting and there was a good amount of what Ramadasji sa=

id coming true in regards to the stomach problems of the native and so on. T=

he same chart was looked at my Zoranji and I must humbly and without any off=

ence say that nothing much was true in that case. Zoranji mentioned about th=

e native of the mother being a widow and about native meeting accidents and =

about native not being spritual and the only spritual essence will be given =

by the wife of the native. This has been very wrong and very different, in t=

he case o fthe native. So who should I believe. Neways mine is NOT TO COMPAR=

E readings. I think everyone gives their best effort and I truly admire and =

appreciate the help that readings give to people.

But once again prediciting about DEATH when the astrologer himself or herse=

lf is not sure is not the right thing. And like I mentioned every astrologer=

just bends rules in regards to this.

Finally, I am NOT saying OR implying that Im right in this regards. What I =

am saying and IMPLYING is we should Leave Godly things to God and Give HUMAN=

FREE WILL A chance. We should use astrology to guide and not to harm. We sh=

ould guide people and predict about death in uncertaninty defience no guidan=

ce. It only severs as stress and sorrow. There are some people who think on =

a divine plane and fear no death which is good. But the people who come in t=

ouch with astrology and use astrology are generally NOT the people who claim=

to be highly englingheted. But are rather mere humans living life that God =

has given and Do fear DEATH. So it is unethical and wrong to claim to such p=

eople about their death and cause them stress and harm rather than being hel=

pful and benefical to them using astrology. By not charging them and by help=

ing them irrespective of what their age, caste, creed, financial condition i=

s.

When we Go to a Gurdawara in the Sikh Belief, we are all served langar free=

of Charge irrespective of who come to the temple weather he be rich or poor=

.. Don't u think similar principles should be applicable to astrology. When w=

e go to the church or mosque, they mention that when one is facing death one=

should remember the name of God, for no one but only God knows when we are =

going to Die. Are they All WRONG??? If they are wrong why and how are we rig=

ht, Just be reading BHPS and Jaimini and ignoring all other religious texts =

can be fully understand the function of God, and if we cannot understand the=

function of God can we or are we justified in using the Divine tool of astr=

ology in any way what so ever. When we ourselves misintepret all these thing=

s as humans, let along predict DEATH.

I will leave with two thoughts to ponder on Dear Sanjayji and Zoranji. I ha=

d made a posting on CANCER a few days back and I check a reply today by one =

of our members, its I think titled "RE: CANCER". It is said in that reply by=

the member. That he has read about the 300 or so combinations by respected =

DR BV raman on cancer. And he said that he has analyzed and he did NOT find=

the combinations in those charts that showed cancer??? This is one question=

The second one I will leave is, if HUMANS has no free will and everything w=

as dicated by astrology and planets including death and we had astrologers w=

ho could exactly lay down the course of life do u think EVOLUTION would be t=

he way it is today. Do u think we could fight the odds and come out on the w=

inning end. Do u think we could change for the better. I DON'T think So, sin=

ce the astrologer would claim that such and such planets will definlately le=

ad u to this end and nothing could be done. And if that would be the case. A=

Bad man trying to realize Good would not work or Everyone would go about pr=

edicting DEATH and making money by suggesting remedies to avoid it. It would=

truly be a different world if everything was guided by planets. And if astr=

ologers claim that they cannot be 100% right then I suggest they also ponder=

a thought on the prediction of DEATH, since if this prediction happens to f=

all in the 100th percentile and was wrong, this would cause much stress and =

greify to the family, the sourrounding people and the loved ones of the mort=

als and the not so `Englined Beings'.

Like I said my case is not against Astrology or The Astrologer, my case is =

against the limits one should put on such a study and the limits one should =

follow and the ethical code one should follow in astrology as a science of s=

pritual tool.

Once again it has been great hanging around in the post, I have had my answ=

ers from the Great Astrologer I come in touch with he taught me much and cro=

ssed my life. He taught me one thing, and that thing was to shed benevolence=

and to try to bring out joy in this presenent life no matter what the circu=

mstances are, and if I come in contact with such people to shed joy and lau=

ghter with such people no matter who they are and what they are. To guide th=

em and to laugh and bring joy in their life. When I came across the predicti=

on of DEATH I saw this was in direct contradition to such principles cause I=

have seen real life people having been predicted about death by many so cal=

led good astrologer and they not dying and infact being stressed in living i=

n sorrow to uptil that point. Not themselves as much as their loved ones get=

ting hurt.

I hope I get my point across of the power of God and His realm.

Paslm 23:4 "Yeah and even though I walk through the valley of the shawdow o=

f death I will not fear evil for thou art with me and thy rod and thy staff =

shall comfort me".

And that which Does not kills Us makes Us strong.

So, I end it here I did not mean to be offensive in any way or any part. Bu=

t was rather disturbed. I cannot stop people from predicting or researching =

about death. I happen to cross the path of this fourm and gave my experience=

s and thoughts. That's all I can do. Research into Death will be carried and=

Astrologers will keep predicting about Death. I will leave that to be Judge=

d by God during the time of judgement. I appreciate all the Guru's who came =

and I know they are much more englintned than me by any doubt. But I don't p=

ray to them. I RESPECT them but I don't consider them God. I consider them m=

essengers of God but not God. I think one who speaks ill of them speaks ill =

of God so I try to englintne myself from their teaching at the same time que=

stioning myself and conscious. Having said that, I BOW IN HUMILITY TO GOD, W=

HOSE FORM I DON'T KNOW, Whose power I have seen and whose magic I have felt.=

I BOW TO HIM to guide me in my Life and to Guide everyone in their life.

Best Wishes and God Bless

Ums

June 12, 2003

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Ums,

I do agree whole heartedly with the **spirit** of your long post.

The message (as I understood) is quite meaningful, though we differ

in the details. Yes. Astrologers shoould NOT PLAY GOD. We have our

limitations. Every student should first learn the limitations of the

science, craft or art and his tools before he/she embarks on the

journey. It is the responsibility of the teacher to outline the

scope as well as the limitations of the subject to the student. Nice

and sincere thoughts.

Regards,

Satya

============================================================

vedic astrology, "planck12" <planck12>

wrote:

> Dear Sanjayji and Zoranji,

> Thanks for ur thoughts at the onset and perhaps this will be my

last repons=

> e to the topic of death in all regards. I will try to clarify my

stand on it=

> and I do not wish to imply that Im right or wrong. Or that anyone

in this w=

> orld is right or wrong since the defination of right or wrong is a

relative =

> one in this world of ours. Everyone wants to prove his or her

point irrespec=

> tive and often we find it hard to distinguish what is right and

what is wron=

> g. But neways here are some of my final thoughts.

June 12, 2003

Dear Dr.Satya,

Thank U for your reponse. Im glad that someone agrees with me and gives God his

due share of work and position and gives the HUMAN FREE WILL the chance to

imporvise and imporve on and evolove in its journey of life.

regards and God Bless

Ums

vedic astrology, "Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary"

<satyaprakasika> wrote:

>

> Aum Namah Shivaya

>

> Dear Ums,

>

> I do agree whole heartedly with the **spirit** of your long post.

> The message (as I understood) is quite meaningful, though we differ

> in the details. Yes. Astrologers shoould NOT PLAY GOD. We have our

> limitations. Every student should first learn the limitations of the

> science, craft or art and his tools before he/she embarks on the

> journey. It is the responsibility of the teacher to outline the

> scope as well as the limitations of the subject to the student. Nice

> and sincere thoughts.

>

> Regards,

> Satya

>

> ============================================================

> vedic astrology, "planck12" <planck12>

> wrote:

> > Dear Sanjayji and Zoranji,

> > Thanks for ur thoughts at the onset and perhaps this will be my

> last repons=

> > e to the topic of death in all regards. I will try to clarify my

> stand on it=

> > and I do not wish to imply that Im right or wrong. Or that anyone

> in this w=

> > orld is right or wrong since the defination of right or wrong is a

> relative =

> > one in this world of ours. Everyone wants to prove his or her

> point irrespec=

> > tive and often we find it hard to distinguish what is right and

> what is wron=

> > g. But neways here are some of my final thoughts.

June 13, 2003

|Hare Rama Krishna|

Dear Ums,

Do you feel i was too quick of the gun?

The Lagna lord was in 12th house, hence the 3rd from the Arudha Lagna would be

the lagna itself, and indicate the cause of death. Hence any planets placed in

the Lagna would have an important say in the cause of death.

As these are 6th and 3rd lords, the native must watch out in their dealing with

enemies, as these tend to cause stress (saturn) and even disease as a result,

and this is exactly what Yama wants, to ensure that the native doesn't goto the

lower talas or narakas after death, instead he punishes the person in this abode

with disease and they can enjoy their good merrits in the next abode.

So what do you want me todo about that? is it a good or bad thing? i prefer

him/her being healthy, but i didn't have the rest of the chart.. u get what u

ask for.

The remedy is mrityunjaya mantra, so the native can walk through the disease and

live abit longer in this world.

I'm not going to comment on your free will thread. I have allready shown my

views on this by giving a remedy.

Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana:

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org

-

planck12

vedic astrology

Friday, June 13, 2003 5:20 AM

[vedic astrology] Dear Sanjayji And ZoranJi

Dear Sanjayji and Zoranji, Thanks for ur thoughts at the onset and perhaps this

will be my last repons= e to the topic of death in all regards. I will try to

clarify my stand on it= and I do not wish to imply that Im right or wrong. Or

that anyone in this w= orld is right or wrong since the defination of right or

wrong is a relative = one in this world of ours. Everyone wants to prove his or

her point irrespec= tive and often we find it hard to distinguish what is right

and what is wron= g. But neways here are some of my final thoughts. I have

learned much from t= his fourm. But what Im trying to seek and find Ive never

found. I have been = glad to have come across people of your calibre and

thoughts and do thank ev= eryone around to have shed their thoughts. But I must

admit what Im seeking = and trying to search and came to this fourm in search

of, I did not find, in= fact the idea has been overshawdowed lot of conflicting

and confusing though= ts. A bit about myself,I have been brought up in a very

spritual family. A fami= ly where the Main pilot of the ship is God. Infact as

a kid there had been t= imes with me when I tried to change seats and was often

ment with disappoint= ment. But I did not consider that a diassspointment in my

own sense because = it taught me the power of God and how the world was

maintaned in an order be= cause of His magical power and Magical work. Let us

concentrate on DEATH now= .. [Rath:] What is premature about the statement

Visti made? Has he said > > that the native dies because of that combination,

and if so, are we > > not supposed to find out the reasons and causes of death

or apamrityu. = [ums]: Yes, thats is wot which is excatly implied, infact that

is what u ha= ve also understood. Now to get to the question why this is

premature. Dear R= athji, we are humans and mortals at the underlying level.

Just as its not po= ssible to create life with any sort of scientific

technologies avalible. I f= irmly belief that death is something of a smilliar

concept. Lets start with = life to explain death. Perhaps I can better give my

insights into it. What i= s brith? It is something that happens as a result of

Godly intervention. A h= uman cannot be created in labs or with scietific

calculations. The process o= f cloning was tried. But a few months back the

first clone 'dolly' was termi= nated, since dolly suffered birth defects, got

ill and was going to die newa= ys. At this the famouse scientiest "Dr.Richard

Seed" the father of cloning c= lamined quote "While this was a great

breakthrough in genetic engineering. I= bow in scilenece of the power of the so

called God I did not really believe= in uptil this point in time. Today I

realize that even though science can a= chieve great breakthroughs with

technology one cannot create human beings li= ke the way nature creates them".

This was excatly what was said by richard s= eed during the failure of the

cloning experiment. A few months later CONIAD a qubec company tried to claim to

the world that = they were scucessufl in clonning humans and on inquiry it was a

big scandal = and everything came out to the open world that it was a big LIE.

So there we= go about birth. It is not possible inspite of technology and

mathemactical = calculations to make a human. Since God is one step ahead of us

humans. Now coming back to Death. Inspite of science not being able to create a

hum= an how can science claim to do anything with death. We can postpone death

bu= t not conqure it. But lets see how astrology fits into the picture. There

are two kinds of joytish in this world. One who are money minded and = charge

money and the others who are spritual and charge no money what so eve= ry no

matter who the person is or what condition he/she is in. There are spr= itual

people like Sai baba. Who people go to get cured and inspite of the wo= rld

turning materaliztic they dont charge money. There are some village astr=

ologers I have seen who have been very accurate with their predictions and t=

hey dont charge a DIME weather I come from the family of the kings or I come=

from the family of the paupers. It is these people that I admire with all m= y

heart and soul why because inspite of the change of the yuga they have hel= d

onto their spritualistic tendencies. NOW if SOMEONE like that predicted ab= out

death, which they never DO, atleast out of all the astrologers Ive been =

friends and spoken too and talked about. They will say that watch out for so=

and so time, but they will never mention about DEATH. I asked them why they=

wouldnt say, they gave me some replies to which I bow down and respect with=

all my mind. The following were some of my replies as to Why these humble p=

eople wont talk about death. 1. They said in the great classics it is mentioned

that to dwell with the L= ORD Of YAMA is the greatest sin one can do to

astrology. Pravati Devi Cursed= the astrologer because he predicted much about

Lord Shiva and this was not = ment to be the case with astrology. It was a tool

given to guide us through = life. But the morden astrologer has made it a tool

to scare people and loot = money from people by scaring them about DEATH. The

great astrologer told me,= that DEATH was a Godly intervention just as BIRTH.

He said no matter what h= umans tried They could never CONTROL BIRTH OR DEATH.

Let alone be able to pr= edict death. The great astrologer told me While birth

was predictable becaus= e it was considered a joyious occassion and it was the

hall mark of evolutio= n. Death was a different concept. DEATH was the end of

our life on this plan= ets and the breakage of all bonds and it was the

transmigration of the soul..= It was a time when the soul was judged from the

right and wrong. And to INT= ERFERE during such a process of judgmenet from the

devine and the immortal b= eings by humans would constitute one of the greatest

disgrace of astrology. = 2. The great Astrologer also told me that while many

of the people in the w= orld were busy making money and charging for their

astrologrical constulatio= ns. These were the excat things that went against

the art of astrology. He e= xplained to me either U can treat astroloy as a

science or a spritual tool. = He said, if I were to treat astrology as science

then I should have to agree= with the limiations on any other science, just

like a Dr Does his work and = operation and leaves the result to God so should

the scientific practionaer = of astrology also. But if U treat it as a spritual

science which it the TRUE= essence of astrology. Then one should follow the

spritual methods. He says = no where in the books of astrology it is written

that an ASTROLOGER should p= redict DEATH. He said that the rules are given in

the books of BHPS and Jaim= ini where in certain planets give DEATH and so and

So. But such rules are to= be interepeted with extreme caution. IF U look at

the posting of vistiji, just by looking at a few combinations = he has

concluded that either the native will suffer from bad dieases or even= death.

Do U think Sanjayji and Zoranji that having gone through a few mintu= es or

even hours one can draw such conlucsions just by mere placments. If th= at were

to be the case then dont U think so many deaths could be avoided or = rich

people would pay a huge sum of money to prevent dieases such as cancers= and

death from striking them. But since this is not the case, we must agree= that

the concept of DEATH is a very complex enimga for us humans. There hav= e been

some instances where people have predicted DEATH of other individuals= .. This

is not because of ASTROLOGY, this is rather because of INTUITION. The= re have

been a close friend of mine and infact I too have had some expreinec= e in my

life when a family friend of ours was bound to fly one day and I had= the

lousiset feeling and when I looked into the mirror the mirror told me t= o stop

them from flying. This took quite a bit on my part to conveninece my = family

friend. But I was able to convenince them. Later that night the singl= e engine

plane they were going to take crashed people in the plane were kill= ed. But my

family friends were saved. What SHOULD I call this, I was just 14= during that

point and had nothing and no clue about astrology whatsoever. S= ome other

expereinces have occured to me during the course of my life, and I= do not wish

to mention them since I do not wish to boost. But the above I h= ave given

because I truly feel the power of God. Death as Zoranji mentioned is a crossing

point to the other dimension. And = I very much agree with that. But dwelling

into the scrects of DEATH is total= ly wrong. This is not because I fear DEATH,

but because I think it is the wr= ong thing to do. I ask put forth a simple

question, As u have stated that lottery is differe= nt from death, I had put a

posting regarding if an astrologer should charge = or not. I wonder rather than

making money out of the poor suffering people o= r people who come for

consulation. An astrologer should bet money on lottery= tickets spend time in

calculating things and win himself a lottery, see the= astrologer can be really

rich without even having to charge money to the po= or clients infact he can

make a living out of it. And if that is considered = wrong then why should the

predictions of DEATH be any different, even when i= t is mentioned that its

incorrect to dwell and work in the working of the LO= RD OF YAMA. Dear Sanjayji

as u mentioned if one spends time then one can predict lotter= y results then

how can visitji without having spent much time could have pre= dicted about

DEATH or SERIOUS TROUBLE. Dont U think that is a time consuming= process too,

Infact I think an astrologer should spend more time than the p= redictions of

lottery if he/she is predicting about death since if someone d= oes not win a

lottery that wouldnt be too much of a problem as someone who i= s aniticpating

death and death doesnt happen.We should try to understand our limitations.

There is no religious book tha= t I have come across atleast that says humans

have the power to predict abou= t DEATH of themselves let alone of others. I

have asked scholars from variou= s fields and I have asked the religious

peoples of various faiths. And in ev= ery religion the most fundamental concept

that comes to light is "BELIEVE in ONE GOD and having FAITH IN HIM IN TOTALITY

and DO onto others = what U would onto urself. I have not come across a single

religious scriuptu= re that says that humans have the right to predict about

someones death. We = are no doublty anywhere close to Christ, Or Buddha or the

10 Gurus of Sikhs = or Prophet Mohammed. Yet we are playing god and we are

trying to act like th= em. We should realise that there is a lot of difference

between them and us = mortal humans. They were on a different plain of self

awarness and thought w= here as we are on a different plane of thought. This is

simply proved by the= fact that we charge money for our consultations we charge

money for anythin= g we do in regards to religion weather they be poojas or

anything else. So t= he plain and thought is very different. They on the other

HAND inspite of th= e hardships of those times brought people together and

associated with the p= oor people in the most of humility. I go to the Mosque

and I see people pray= to God, I go the Gurdawara and I see people humbly

cleaning the shoes of th= e others whom they don't know to do `seva' and do

seva at the langar. Why? B= ecause I feel they show compassion towards other

humans and consider them eq= ual. But what purpose does predicting DEATH serve?

If U say it makes someone hap= py, then I must disagree. If U go to a mother

whose son is dying and U tell = the mother. Dear mother Im a very Good

astrologer and I have research into a= ll of astrology and I can predict death.

And Ur son is going to die at so an= d so time and Day. But U tell the mother

don't worry mother Ur son is not go= ing to DIE he is just going to move on

into another dimension. Do u think it= would give an consolation to the mother.

I don't think so, but if u are Dr= .. U put ur best efforts in trying to save

the son and say the Rest is upto G= od. There is a good possibility that the

son might, just might live through = the time and God might help him. Death is

something that God decides for Us "Jitni Chabi Ram nai Bare Utna C= hale

Kelona" And it is Only God that can shorten it or increase its span. Co= ming

down again to directly address ur question of Prematurity in predicting= Death.

Then there are two points I use against it. 1.Firslty, if u consider Joytish a

science which most of us do in the Kali = Yoga then every science has in bult

errors. The probabitly is more so in the= case of astrology. The thing is with

Mechanical Engineering as U are if Im = not mistaken is that we calculate and

try to fix things that how we save the= company and make it a profit. But

inspite we at times are prone to errors a= nd the bridges fall and the machines

breaks. Now if a machine breaks this mi= ght not cause much harm, there might be

death (which again is Godly interven= tions) but on a general scale lots of

machines breaks and lots of engineerin= g calculations go wrong. But people

don't die in every instance. Engineering= and Medicience improves the quality

and so does astrology. But one should l= ook and practice things within LIMITS.

That's the key word LIMITS. Engineers= can create missles yet when we practice

engineering we are bound by the cod= e of ethics not to do such foolish things.

When we practice Medicinece we ar= e again bound by similar codes. And what is

the fundamental ethics of this c= odes. "IT IS TO PRESERVE LIFE, and to improve

the QUALITY OF LIFE and evolut= ion". Which does not make any sense to me in

astrology when we predict about= DEATH, I see no logic in how that imporves the

quality of life. Its somethi= ng that is going to happen which everyone knows

but learning about how it ha= ppens or when it happens I don't see how it

imporves the QUALITY OF LIFE. Th= is leave no difference between a person who

preaches evil and deals with dea= th. Now that is the scientific approach. If

we practice Scienfic astrology b= ased on mere calculations and 0 intuition

then we should have some kind of c= ode of ethics too. If the great Maharishis

Such as Jaimin and Prashara have = mentioned about DEATH. Then they definitely

have mentioned about the code of= ethics that govern such predictions. One

cannot just stare into a chart, generalize combinations, leave intuitio= n at

home and say "U are going to Die or serious Diease or Death" since the =

problem is if this situation back fires, it is going to case much harm to th= e

person who this is being told too. Not only it is disrespectful but it is = also

immoral and unethical. If mathematical calcualkations can go wrong in t= he case

of machines or bridges then so can they in the case of DEATH. But th= e harm in

the latter case is much more than the former. And now if we are not a

scientific astrologer as I said before we fall into= the spritutual astrology

section. This again has arguments against it. Poin= t to me one religious BOOK

and one religious scripture written by the Prophe= t Muhammaed or Christ or the

Sikh Gurus that state "HUMANS are AT A LIBERTY = TO PREDICT DEATH" our own or

let alone other people on the street who seek h= elp.?????? So this kind of

astrology is out of the question too. Many astrol= oger in the present Day

charge huge sum of money why, no books of astrologer= state that, Infact if we

are called Guru's then we should only accept GuruD= akshanas for any kind of

Knowldege we impart of give or anything for that ma= tter. And if a clinet

doesn't pay a dime we should consider it our luck. Jus= t as we pray without

being responsible for the Fruits That God should give u= s or we get. In a

similar fashion if we consider astrology divine we should = not charge and get

a real job and help people on partime basis. But that is = not the case. Yeah

there are astrologers who would justify this by saying th= at the money that

comes in through consultations and publications is used di= rectly in terms of

religious means and purposes. Which is no doubt a Good th= ing. But the

question is Does all this money go to religious purposes and th= e bottom line

is. Does all this money eventually help the poor person at the= other end??

That's the big question. Since if we cannot allievate suffering= we have no

right to cause it. As it is its in plenty. Lets take an anology how scriptures

and things can be interepreted very wro= ng and along very different lines. In

the 60s The Hippi Culture was at a ful= l fledge there were some good things

but there were some few who took on the= logo of "Hare Rama Hare Krishan" and

they started smoking weed and preashin= g the message of LOVE!! Do u think this

was mentioned anywhere. I don't thin= k so. In the present context people point

fingers towards the great Gurus an= d Saints and say they had 5 wifes so why

cant we!!!The problem is we all try to do what we like and interpret things as

we lik= e. In the case of Death and Astrology, Some astrologers pull it beyond

limit= s and totally curb HUMAN FREE WILL. Make it look like we are puppets and

tha= t planets dicatete everything and there is no Room for God. Though there

are= things like marriage, profession, some minor problems in regards to

health,= children and so on can be predict well by astrologer. The higher

dimension = such as suffereing of higher kind and death and past birth and next

brith ar= e not the realm of astrology. Why? Because as I mentioned God is in

charge o= f all these things and HUMAN free will is capable of much effort. Say

if I were too look at a chart of some thief I would say that he is goin= g to

commit much harm in life and to people. But what happens if that does n= ot

becomes the case, what happens if the person turns out to be the next Val= miki

and writes something religious. Lance Amstrong the cyclist had cancer h= e

fought through it and came out at the winning end. This is not because of =

astrologer or planets. Though we might try our best to relate it to chart, a=

nd to be honest we will definitely find ways to relate to it, using our 9 pl=

anets and 60 divisionals so far atleast who know how many more will come. Bu= t

yeah we could relate to it. But the thing would be that 99% of the time we=

would do this as an excerise of reasech and take existence charts and circu=

matsnces and fit everything into it. Not prior to it. That's why astrologica= l

research has limitations. My advice to Astrologers and All the learned members.

Look into a chart, follow the basics, sit down in medictations, ask to God =

weather I am and should I be able to predict this and so and so. Once the ku=

ndalni shakti comes alive one intuitions gives way to prediction once when t=

houghts become strong then predict rather than look at combinations in 100 c=

harts and try to relate that to the 101 chart since it might be a 50 – 50 se=

nerio. If the predictions are good then no harm, but if the predictions are =

wrong. Then the clinet might curse the astrologer so bad, that even God migh= t

have second thoughts on trying to evaluate this Karma of the astrologer. I will

end it here and this is my last posting in the group. Since I haven'= t really

found what I have been looking for. Most of the replies Ive got in = regards to

the few posting I have done namely:1.If an astrolger should charge money or not

2. If an astrologer should predict death or has the ablitiy for the same or=

not. Have been meet with different responses. The part about money where

Ramadas= ji has mentioned that has been the most touching to me. Infact I am

totally = in one with Ramadasji on that one and infact I can relate very well

to his r= esponse. It was unfortunate that Ramadasji did not comment on the

death part. Infact= in many of his other posting I have never really come

across him predicting= about death. I had done a chart posting and there was a

good amount of what Ramadasji sa= id coming true in regards to the stomach

problems of the native and so on. T= he same chart was looked at my Zoranji and

I must humbly and without any off= ence say that nothing much was true in that

case. Zoranji mentioned about th= e native of the mother being a widow and

about native meeting accidents and = about native not being spritual and the

only spritual essence will be given = by the wife of the native. This has been

very wrong and very different, in t= he case o fthe native. So who should I

believe. Neways mine is NOT TO COMPAR= E readings. I think everyone gives their

best effort and I truly admire and = appreciate the help that readings give to

people. But once again prediciting about DEATH when the astrologer himself or

herse= lf is not sure is not the right thing. And like I mentioned every

astrologer= just bends rules in regards to this. Finally, I am NOT saying OR

implying that Im right in this regards. What I = am saying and IMPLYING is we

should Leave Godly things to God and Give HUMAN= FREE WILL A chance. We should

use astrology to guide and not to harm. We sh= ould guide people and predict

about death in uncertaninty defience no guidan= ce. It only severs as stress

and sorrow. There are some people who think on = a divine plane and fear no

death which is good. But the people who come in t= ouch with astrology and use

astrology are generally NOT the people who claim= to be highly englingheted.

But are rather mere humans living life that God = has given and Do fear DEATH.

So it is unethical and wrong to claim to such p= eople about their death and

cause them stress and harm rather than being hel= pful and benefical to them

using astrology. By not charging them and by help= ing them irrespective of

what their age, caste, creed, financial condition i= s. When we Go to a

Gurdawara in the Sikh Belief, we are all served langar free= of Charge

irrespective of who come to the temple weather he be rich or poor= .. Don't u

think similar principles should be applicable to astrology. When w= e go to the

church or mosque, they mention that when one is facing death one= should

remember the name of God, for no one but only God knows when we are = going to

Die. Are they All WRONG??? If they are wrong why and how are we rig= ht, Just

be reading BHPS and Jaimini and ignoring all other religious texts = can be

fully understand the function of God, and if we cannot understand the= function

of God can we or are we justified in using the Divine tool of astr= ology in any

way what so ever. When we ourselves misintepret all these thing= s as humans,

let along predict DEATH. I will leave with two thoughts to ponder on Dear

Sanjayji and Zoranji. I ha= d made a posting on CANCER a few days back and I

check a reply today by one = of our members, its I think titled "RE: CANCER".

It is said in that reply by= the member. That he has read about the 300 or so

combinations by respected = DR BV raman on cancer. And he said that he has

analyzed and he did NOT find= the combinations in those charts that showed

cancer??? This is one question= The second one I will leave is, if HUMANS has

no free will and everything w= as dicated by astrology and planets including

death and we had astrologers w= ho could exactly lay down the course of life do

u think EVOLUTION would be t= he way it is today. Do u think we could fight the

odds and come out on the w= inning end. Do u think we could change for the

better. I DON'T think So, sin= ce the astrologer would claim that such and such

planets will definlately le= ad u to this end and nothing could be done. And if

that would be the case. A= Bad man trying to realize Good would not work or

Everyone would go about pr= edicting DEATH and making money by suggesting

remedies to avoid it. It would= truly be a different world if everything was

guided by planets. And if astr= ologers claim that they cannot be 100% right

then I suggest they also ponder= a thought on the prediction of DEATH, since if

this prediction happens to f= all in the 100th percentile and was wrong, this

would cause much stress and = greify to the family, the sourrounding people and

the loved ones of the mort= als and the not so `Englined Beings'. Like I said my

case is not against Astrology or The Astrologer, my case is = against the limits

one should put on such a study and the limits one should = follow and the

ethical code one should follow in astrology as a science of s= pritual tool.