Subject: 20th mumbai meeting discussions

June 11, 2003

Dear Gopal,

The sentence "as one who sleeps does no sin, and one who does no sin goes to

Heaven." have much deeper meaning in it. Mandyukya Upanishad declares that our

gross body experiences the following states daily, 1. Awaken state ruled by

Devata Vaiswanara. Every day morning we creat our own world (Bramha) and

sustain it (Vishnu) throughout the day2. Light sleep or dreaming state ruled by

Devata Taijasa3. Deep sleep or no identity state ruled by Devata Pragna. At this

state our world created and sustained throughout the day is destroyed (Shiva) So

you can see that we all go through the concept of creation and destruction of

the creation by pralaya - every day. AUM is the pranava mantra (seed of all

mantras and the basis of creation). Here `A' represents the waking state -

where all causes and effects are experienced, `U' represents the dreaming state

- where also all causes and effects are experienced and `M' represents the deep

sleep state - where only causes are experienced. There is of course a fourth

state beyond this called `turiya' or deep meditative state, which is not

automatic but can be attained only by conscious practice. With constant

repetition of `AUM' this state is transcedented. In this stage neither causes

nor effects are experienced. As awaken state and dreaming state (9th house) are

affected by both causes and effects .. we do karma (cause) in these 2 states and

have the effects. But in deep sleep state..there is no individual identity. At

this state there is no difference between a begger and a king.. so there is no

karma and no effect. Look at it in another way. When a soul is elevated to such

an extent that the `AHAM' or the gross ego is no more there... all works are

self less and dedicated to Lord Krishna. So no effect comes to us for such

karmas. This stage is equivalent to deep sleep state - when all individual

identities are absent. Another thing to be kept in mind, that all remedial

measures in vedic astrology are targeted to the first 2 stage only. Last 2

stages do not require any remedial measures as no effect is experienced there.

Regardsjk

> > vedic astrology, Gopal Krishan Doda> >

<krishanfriend> wrote:> > Namah Shivaya> >> > Namaste Sir,> >> > Nice to

get teachings from you after long time. Well, it seems I can> > not participate

in such a deep discussion, but just one thought on> > your last line "as one who

sleeps does no sin, and one who does no> > sin goes to Heaven.".> >> > As Swami

Vivekanand has mentioned his book "Karma-Yoga", and Lord> > Krishna in

ShriBhagvat Gita, that we're doing karma every moment -> > while reading, while

walking, while listening, while eating, while> > breathing, every moment itself

is a karma and it can't be 100% pure> > good karma or 100% bad karma. Based on

this, even if we're sleeping,> > how is it possible that this action is free

from sin. We still> > breathe while sleeping and breathing may kill small

bacteria in the> > air. So, that's a sin.> >> > May be I'm diverting from main

motive. Looking for right path.> >> >> >> > With Best Wishes> > G.K. Doda> >

gkdoda> >> >> > Namah Shivaya> > -> >

Sanjay Rath> > Vedic-Astrology (AT) (DOT) > > Tuesday, June 10,

2003 1:10 PM> > FW: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai

meeting> > discussions> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >

> > > > Free online calendar

with sync to Outlook.> > --- End forwarded message ---> >> >> >>

June 11, 2003

Dear Sanjayji,

Thanks for your patient reply. I think I am trying your patience to the limit.

So I would try to limit my answers to swaroopa of atman within Jeevatma and

Parmatman, which is the crux of our discussions and drop the rest of the

points. I am pasting below what has been said by Swamy Shivanandji about Jnana

yoga which explains the form of the Parmatman (Bramhan). He has indicated what

is jeevatma beautifully.

Again while illustrating the starting of philosophy: Death (remember my

reference to Mrityunjaya ?), Swamiji has this to say.

Should his philosophy not be aceptable , we shall go into scriptures. In

Kathopanishad, Yamaraja tells Nachiketa about the final abode and explains as

below.

Kathopnishad: 2nd Valli

18. 'The knowing (Self) is not born, it dies not; it sprang from nothing, nothing

sprang from it. The Ancient is unborn, eternal, ever lasting; he is not killed,

though the body is killed.'

19. 'If the killer thinks that he kills, if the killed thinks that he is killed,

they do not understand; for this one does not kill, nor is that one killed.'

20. 'The Self, smaller than small, greater than great, is hidden in the heart of

that creature. A man who is free from desires and free from grief, sees the

majesty of the Self by the grace of the Creator .

3rd valli:

12. 'That Self is hidden in all beings and does not shine forth, but it is seen

by subtle seers through their sharp and subtle intellect.'

Again he tells Nachiketa:

5th Valli.

8. 'He, the highest Person, who is awake in us while we are asleep, shaping one

lovely sight after another, that indeed is the Bright, that is Brahman, that

alone is called the Immortal. All worlds are contained in it, and no one goes

beyond. This is that.'

12. 'There is one ruler, the Self within all things, who makes the one form

manifold. The wise who perceive him within their Self, to them belongs eternal

happiness, not to others.'

6th Valli

6. 'Having understood that the senses are distinct (from the Atman), and that

their rising and setting (their waking and sleeping) belongs to them in their

distinct existence (and not to the Atman), a wise man grieves no more.'

About your question regarding Charioteer, here is what Kathopnishada tells us

when Yamaraja tells Nachiketa about Chariot:

Third Valli

3. 'Know the Self to be sitting in the chariot, the body to be the chariot, the

intellect (buddhi) the charioteer, and the mind the reins.'

4. 'The senses they call the horses, the objects of the senses their roads. When

he (the Highest Self) is in union with the body, the senses, and the mind, then

wise people call him the Enjoyer.'

I trust you will agree that my reasoning about Atman and parmataman being one

has its foundation in Upanishads.

About Jeevatma Swamy Shivananda says.

I think, this makes the basis of what I am saying, clear. I would appreciate your comments please.

With warm regards,

Chandrashekhar.

-

Sanjay Rath

Vedic-Astrology (AT) (DOT)

Tuesday, June 10, 2003 1:10 PM

FW: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions

|brihaspatim varenyam|

Dear Chandrasekhar,

No matter how much we shake and dance we cannot shake off the YOKE..the Lord

holds it hard and fast and the sooner we realise that the TEN HORSES of the

chariot are the navagraha and Lagna and that the master of the chariot is

forced to travel in the directions these steeds drag the chariot, the better it

is for us. The question is Who is the charioteer, the driver, the holder of the

reins of those steeds? Who have you chosen to TRUST with the reins of your

chariot? If you cannot trust the charioteer, then don't give him the reins.

Even a blind Dhritarashtra was fortunate to have a blessed charioteer like

Sanjaya, who by the grace of Vyasadeva, could 'see' and hence 'guide'.

Other technicalities are touched below.

~ om tat sat ~

Yours truly,

Sanjay Rath

---------------------------

H-5, B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India

+91-674-2436871 http://srath.com

---------------------------

If we assume that Atma or his significator is trying to teach us, then how do we

interprete Shrimadbhagvadgita adhyaaya 2 shloka 25 where the Lord tells Arjuna

about swaroopa and swabhava of Atma aswhere he calls Atma as Avyakta Achintya

and Avikaari.. Now why would the Avikaari Atma want to teach us whether or not

to feel pain as he has no attachment with the Jeeva? I think the reason could

be because the Atmakaraka being the planet with most degrees passed in the

house would be the weakest of the planets and the results would depend on the

degrees past. If in Sandhi the results suggested are possible. I think the

Sages were very learned. As you are also an engineer, you will understand what

I am trying to say. They indicated the Naisargik and Sthira Karaka as the

strongest link and Atmakaraka as the wekest link. The failure of a chain is

dependent on weakest Link and hence the importance indicated for him.[Rath:]

The Atma or its significator is also the Learner, the question has always been

whether to accept the Advaita point 'I am the teacher as well' or the dvaita

point 'I am the learner and the teacher is different from me'. When a statement

like the AK is trying to teach us is being made, then it means that the AK is

trying to send important messages to the Mana.

Is the Jivaatma different from the Atma? If so, is this not just the covering of

prakriti that has made it 'alive' or a 'jiva'. In any case, it is still the same

atma. Of course, I believe that this is different from the param-atma while

others are welcome to disagree.

According to the rules of strength, the first rule states that the Atmakaraka is

the STRONGEST planet.

There is no such link or chain. They are mere significators or KARAKA, and they

teach us how to understand the different attributes of the Atma (or Jivatma).

As the naisargika AK, the Sun indicates the nature of the Atma as being of pure

satva guna, fiery like a spark and that the Agni is its adhi devata (always

beneficial by carrying its prayers to the Gods) and Shiva is the Pratyadhi

devata (always beneficial by removings sins like the dust over a lamp that

reduces its luminicence, a prayer to Shiva removes the sins and the Atma can

realise its true nature. Similarly think of its Chara and Sthira

significations.

I can't possibly sit and type out the whole answer, but get the CD of the West

coast conference where I am going to talk on this is great depth.

[Rath:] My father has Saturn AK in Capricorn, I have Saturn AK in Capricorn, my

daughter has Saturn AK in Capricorn. Saturn rules the area calles Saurashtra

where Somanath was established. Anyway to the point. My father never earned any

livelihood from the traditional family knowledge, I did earn and continue to do

so, don't know about my daughter. Difference I have it in 11th house.

I have quoted what has been said by Parashara. I have also given what I feel is

more likely. I am certain your father was spiritually inclined and so shall be

your daughter. Placement of Atmakaraka would definitely make a difference as

rightly pointed out by you. The degrees past in house and their proximity or

otherwise to the Bhava Madhya would also modify the results.[Rath:] OK I had

expected this answer, so did not give the full information. Both my father and

I have Saturn as AK in capricorn in Virgo navamsa!!! More later. Yes spiritual

inclinations are there, but he is a great believer of Lord Somanath (Shiva) and

I cannot live without Jagannatha...see the difference. it is from the Mukti

marga..the perceived path of moksha. It proves the teachings of my Guru

Pt.Kasinatha that the 12th from Karakamsa shows this path. the details you

mention/seek will be discussed in the US conference this August. hope to have

enough time to touch Rasi, navamsa, shastyamsa and other divisions as well as

avastha, graha, bhava, drishti, yoga etc.

[Rath:] ..Anyway, that still does not answer the question. How are you going to

see the jivatma and paramatma in the chart? can you give an illustration?

I have many a times said that I am not an expert in matters spiritual, as

understood now a days. However, the Lord said that

Adhyaya 8:3. Akshar is Bramha, Jeevatma is Swbhava and the Tyaga which gives

rise to bhava amongst being is Karma. Further about Paratman he says,

Adhyaya8.20 that there is also another Divya parama bhava beyond this and that

Divya Purusha is not subject to destruction even after all beings are

destroyed.

To my limited intellect the indication is available in the way Atmakaraka(Chara)

and 12th from Karakamsha are treated. The first indicates Jeevatma being subject

to and capable of giveng Dukkha and the second indicating the diety.[Rath:] The

Divya Parama Bhava is the Paramam Padam of Vishnu..will discuss this also in

the US conference in the Sapta Loka topic with some chart illustrations and

quotes from the classics. Till then kindly bear. So we agree that my Guru's

teaching about the 12th house from karakamsa is correct. Thanks for that.

[Rath:] Why would the rishi use these words specifically if he simply wanted

people to compare degrees and minutes as well. Even if he did not say so

specifically, comparision of longitudes implies comparision of degrees, minutes

and seconds. I don't think the rishi's wasted precious words. The verse is clear

about two schemes of 7 and eight chara karaka. The basic creation is of the 7

chara karaka and some superiod beings are created with eight charakaraka. I

will give a simple example - no matter how much of breeding the human being

does, they can never be more than the number of stones in this world. When it

comes to numbers, the inanimate world outnumbers the animate world many times.

To me the reason to mention this to avoid confusion as to when to allow Rahu/

Naisargika Karakas to take place of a blank created by two planets getting the

same karakatwas. In earlier verses the sage had told about greatest of the

degrees and so on. Here he must have wanted to indicate that he wants the

student to understand that if the minutes and second are different , degrees

being identical, the Karakatwas will not merge. Their order is indicated by the

different terms used. Or at least this is my interpretation of the written words

available. I am not able to understand the concept of superior being being

created with 8 Karaka scheme. The sage has not said that these are to be

applied to Animate being s and 7 Karakas to inanimate beings. Again has not the

Lord saidVidyavinya sampanne bramhane gavi hastini. shuni ca shvapaake ca

panditaaH samdarshinaH .." ( Adhyaya 5 shloka18)As you are of the opinion that

Chara Atmakaraka is a causative factor for Jeevatma and Parmatma,why would the

Sage give a theory of lesser and superior beings animate or inanimate. I know

that in the shloka the lord does not say about inanimate objects. But he has

said that in adhyaya8 shloka 18 and again adhyaya 9. sh16 and in Adhyaya 10

again the Lord reiterates this. Of course, in earlier post too I had stated

that I have never reffered to 7 or 8 Karaka scheme but Grahas.This is just in

response to your question.[Rath:] Have you ever used the " blank created by

two planets getting the same karakatwas" in any chart? If not then please do

not suggest this. Subsequently you say that the Karakatva is not merging giving

the relevant quote. So, your own argument is countering the the first statement

cited as the possible reason.

I know that "The sage has not said that these are to be applied to Animate being

s and 7 Karakas to inanimate beings" in BPHS or JAIMINI SUTRA. That is why I

promised to give the proof in the SJC West coast conference. Be sure I am going

to do that.

[Rath:] Are you sure. Lets see off hand I give you a quote - if the lord of the

Moon sign were the Atmakaraka and was strong or in Kendra or Kona the native

shall have Rajyoga in his late life. Now this relates to the rasi chart. (I

thank my Gurudeva for this great blessing of memory..His mantra never fails

me).

But this is applicable even when Moon is not an atmakaraka. Again would this be

applicable if the moon is in rashi sandhi as being Atmakaraka he can well be. I

think you will agree that the ancient texts we have received were based on

eforts taken by reowned astrologers to collect shlokas from who so ever had

them, and the shloka might have been from some other source. You are aware that

there are 4 or more different publications of BPHS and some have new shlokas

coming into it with every new edition.

Also the copy of BPHS(R Santanam) I have has no mention of such yoga when

Parashara deals with karakamsha and Chara karakas. The only reference to

Rasi(and not Rasi Chart) and Arudha Lagna that he has made is in Sh. 94 to 99

Chapter 33 where he indicates that the position should be in Karakamsha, Arudha

Lagna and 2nd and 8th from these and while indicating results forDasha of

Chandra with this placement, he talks about Dasha of Rasi but not Rasi Chart.

[Rath:] I don't think you understood. The DISPOSITOR of the MOON and not moon

itself is being mentioned here. Your argument comes into picture ONLY when the

Moon is in Cancer as then the dispositor becomes the Moon itself. Then even if

the Moon is in 29 degrees 59 minutes of Cancer, Rajyoga will be there in the

last part of life. However, since the Moon is in Rasi sandhi, the native will

die during the rajyoga. That means he will be in office of power or position

when he dies.

Version of BPHS??? I guess get all versions and read them. Where I learnt from

'originally' is none of these anyway. Use santanam Vol.1 and Sharma both

Volumes for the time being.

[Rath:] Of course the Sun is sarvaatma and that is why the atma is the svarupa

of the sun. Ideally it is supposed to be of perfect satva guna like the sun,

but is it really? If it were then why did it incarnate?

But Parashara says in Chapter 2 that Rama and Krishna are also incarnation of

Planets and says Rama from Sun and Krishna from moon. He further calrifies that

they were Parmatmanshas and othe planets's incarnation s with some Jevamshas are

also quoted. So where is the question of incarnation suggesting lack of

Satvaguna. From Guru incarnated Vaman having Jeevamsha says Parashara, so the

theory of Parmatmansh being exception is also not applicable.[Rath:] Human

birth- Chandrasekharji..that is what I am talking about. Are you and I

incarnating with complete satva guna?

[Rath:] Not clear. Can you rephrase this please.

I was trying to convey that moksha being result of success in search of Atman

within had atmakaraka been indicative of Atman (which began our discussion in

the first place), Sun in 12th and mot Ketu in 12th would have been assigned the

power to confer Moksha in a chart, whereas Sun alone is indicated to cause

expenses and only in association with Ketu he is said to indicate worship of

Shiva and Chandra but not Moksha. [Rath:] That is the reason why ketu is left

out of the chara karaka scheme for Jivas. If Ketu could become Chara AK, then

how can a Jiva incarnate?? Whether 7 or 8 CK scheme, Ketu will never be in the

picture. The question is only of whether we should accept Rahu (the karaka for

desire) in this scheme or not and if we do, then for what kinds of created

beings we should include this. Obviously mountains cannot have desire, nor can

I say that the stone had a desire..only living beings have desire...the Jivas

have desire.

[Rath:] Krura and saumya is a svabhava attributed to the feelings of the mana

when there is an interaction. At the atma level there is no such feeling. It is

krura as it burns. Moon is saumya as it soothes. Here the burning and soothing

sensation is the interaction of the senses and the mana is getting a feedback.

In fact burning is the best spiritual remedy that is why Tapas is said to be

the ignition of the spiritual fire.

I was trying to say that endowed with Satvaguna and being Atman, why would he

have to be krura? But if we take Atmabala as understood by me then coupled with

Royalty it is perfectly logical. I remenber Shankaracharya(Badrinath Math, I

think but am not certain) once saying that "Raja ko garam, Mata ko naram aur

stree ko sharam honi chahiye".[Rath:] Who has more atmabala - a king or a

saint?

[Rath:] Royalty today has come to mean enjoyment and acquisition. The minds of

people have become biased due to the media coverage of the Royal family of

England. However, Royal means ruling power i.e. the power to decide and direct.

The Atma decides how long it wishes to stay in the sinful body and leaves as it

pleases. The atma is the boss no doubt.

It also means power to punish, but as you said atman does not have anger or

affection being Avikari.[Rath:] Yes, But it does have the power to punish, or

what we perceive as punishment. Actually the *real punishment* is after death.

[Rath:] No Jupiter in all signs represents the presence of divinity (Prasna

Marga) but Jupiter cannot be the Karaka for the self. There is a difference

between the benediction of God (Jupiter) and God (Sun).

Sanajayji, you are saying the same thing that I have been trying to say. As

Atman and its attributes remain the same in all beings ( Vidya Vinaya

sampanne..) so does his representative Jupiter in all signs indicates presence

of Divinity whose infinitesimal portion is the Atman, as you quoted from

Prashna Marga.[Rath:] Jupiter is the karaka (again nimitta/significator) of the

paka lagna and hence protects the Jivatma like he protected Indra (this is the

teaching of Shiva in the Shiva Purana). But the Jiva for all beings, although

similar in fundamental nature (Sun natural AK) is different due to the Karma

envelope it carries causing it to have dissimilar experiences (hence Chara AK).

Jupiter is the great friend of the Chara AK and indicates all the punya the

individual atma has done and shall accordingly, give all blessings so long as

this individual atman exists as a jiva..which it does for a long time..God

knows how long.

[Rath:] That true that the Lagna trikona are vital but then how did Dharma come

from the first house?? I think this was a slip, its ok. leave it.

No it was not a slip. You have said we should try to relate the Dharma to

Horoscope too. Now here is my reasoning. Horoscope represents the complete

purushartha as intended by Dharma(Meaning Religion or better Hindu philosophy

here).The planetary position creates aberrations in the way a Jatak will

fulfill his Dharma(duty here).

What are the Four pillars( or if you prefer, steps leading to Moksha the

ultimate aim of followers of Dharma) of Purushartha? Dharma , Karma/Artha, Kama

and Moksha. Again what should be the correct direction? From uditaa part to

un-udita part of horoscope(Birth to death).So when we talk of Trikona other

three being obvious (Karma/Artha with 10th house as apex, Kama with 7th house

in similar position and Moksha with 4th house at top and 12th and 8th forming

the base) , the Ascendant at Apex Trikona could only be rightly called Dharma

trikona. Kindly correct me if my understanding or application is wrong.[Rath:]

The Lagna is a part of the dharma trikona but it is not the dharma. 6th house

is a part of the artha trikona but it is not artha which is the second house.

The service or work we do adds to the growth of wealth but that is not wealth

by itself. Similarly, the Dharma devata has to be seen from the ninth house

from Karakamsa and not from karakamsa itself. Thus, although the Sun is the

significator of both the 1st and 9th houses, its signification is different in

that for the 9th he defines the POLICY and for lagna he defines the

INTELLIGENCE necessary for obeying these policies or rules.

[Rath:] My gurudeva said that he who can understand the Jyotish in the Gita

shall be a Daivagyna. That is why I extoll all my students to work on 3 books

Gita, BPHS and Jaimini sutra. Gita seems easy but is the most challenging.

I agree . The reason being with one's evolution one understands the finer

nuances of shlokas and the hidden wisdom within. I remember that when I quoted

the shloka "Vidyavinaya sampanne..." to support my argument that Atman is in

every being(charaachara) and of the same form and proportion, many on the list

could not relate it to that concept. I too advice puzzled people to read gita

and when they tell me that they have read it and remember it by heart, I ask

them if they have understood it. This sets them thinking and then they come to

me teling me every time they understaand different meaning of the same shloka,

their problems also start seeming light to them around the same time.[Rath:]

Chandrasekhar ji, ask them to give breaks and to start afresh when the Sun

transits the mantrapada A5 Rasi on the day which is ruled by the tithi

indicated by the strongest planet influencing the fifth house. Then hopefully,

they will benefit such that the name of the Lord shall be on their lips when

they depart from this world.

Sanjayji, I agree. Jeevatma is composed of Atman and Prakriti. I hope you will

not find what I have said ramblings of an old man. Thanks again for bearing with

me.[Rath:] Definitely not. These are very learned views and differences in

concepts get resolved and confirmed only when we have such discussions.

My reply is delayed due to electricity which we get till 2 PM now. So I have to

do time 'rationing'. Kindly bear. Jagannath has His ways to enfore His policies

(9th house) on an errant me (1st house). And I am looking for ways and means to

please Him (4th house of happiness from 9th house is 12th house). So, I guess I

have to sleep more!!! as one who sleeps does no sin, and one who does no sin

goes to Heaven.

Profound regards

Sanjay

-

Sanjay Rath

vedic astrology

Thursday, June 05, 2003 6:43 AM

RE: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions

|brihaspatim varenyam|

Dear Chandrasekhar ji

Dear Sanjayji,

Thank you for your patience. I am still of the opinion that the word Karaka

means significator and not Atman. That is why Chara Karaka, Nasargika Karaka

and Yoga Karaka are the terms used by Maharshi Parashara.[Rath:] Of course.

Karaka means significator. How can a graha become my Atma! It only signifies

the atma. That is why its dasa is generally painful - why because the

significator of the atma teaches you not to feel pain, not to feel sorrow and

to realise your real self.

In the first instance. Saturn being Atmakaraka Lively-hood due to native's

family is indicated says parashara. However, the person is more likely to

turn to spiritualism as Saturn also gives deep philosophical and analytical

thinking. Of course much would depend in Natal house tenanted as well as

Karakamsha occupied by Saturn and the Ascendant(Apex of Dharma Trikona)

Lord.for the reasons I have already put forward i.e. these are

interacting.[Rath:] My father has Saturn AK in Capricorn, I have Saturn AK in

Capricorn, my daughter has Saturn AK in Capricorn. Saturn rules the area calles

Saurashtra where Somanath was established. Anyway to the point. My father never

earned any livelihood from the traditional family knowledge, I did earn and

continue to do so, don't know about my daughter. Difference I have it in 11th

house.

Sun would always remain as naisargik Karaka so his position in natal

chart and strength as well as house tenanted and ownership of specific bhava

would decide what the results would be for a native. Jaimini also says

"Prasiddhakarma JeevaH Shanau". He is also likely to put himself to trouble on

account of others and would rarely give troubles to others. Mars as Atmakaraka

on the other hand could either steer one to Medicines , preparations dependent

on fire or Arms and would also make him like visual manifestations of whatever

he belives in (Dambha). [Rath:] I am aware of all this. Anyway, that still does

not answer the question. How are you going to see the jivatma and paramatma in

the chart? can you give an illustration?

I do not mean that Naisargika karaka does not influence bhava, I mean

House ownership of Naisargika karaka and his own placement in house, and its

relation with ascendant would decide the results that he would give. I agree

with you entirely with you that planets and bhavas affect each other. I have

actually said that the sages understood relative effects.[Rath:] OK we agree

on this

About scheme of 7 or 8 atmakarakas. I was not, talking about the number

of Karrakas but about the number of planets to be considered for Chara Karaka

ownership. Parashara himself indicates that he favours 7 planet scheme in

Adhyaaya32 shloka 1 line 2 when he says"saptaravyaadishanyantaan rvhntaan vaa

STsaMkhyakaan." or at least this is how R. Santanam has translated the shloka.

He also indicates that according to some Rahu replaces next in order when there

is degree similarity between two planets thus making both Karaka of a particular

bhava and further says that some say that Rahu be considered irrespective of

such a state. He then ,quite logically goes on to explain that when degrees are

equal one should go on to minutes and when they are so then to seconds. He also

gives the terms Antyakaraka, Madhya Karaka and Upkheta as the terms for these

variations.He also states that Atmakaraka has principal say in matters of

Native(Jataka).[Rath:] Why would the rishi use these words specifically if he

simply wanted people to compare degrees and minutes as well. Even if he did not

say so specifically, comparision of longitudes implies comparision of degrees,

minutes and seconds. I don't think the rishi's wasted precious words. The verse

is clear about two schemes of 7 and eight chara karaka. The basic creation is of

the 7 chara karaka and some superiod beings are created with eight charakaraka.

I will give a simple example - no matter how much of breeding the human being

does, they can never be more than the number of stones in this world. When it

comes to numbers, the inanimate world outnumbers the animate world many times.

I think my lack of communication skills made you think that I am disputing

wisdom of Parashara. I do not to the view that one or other scheme

narrated is wrong. I think one should try them out in horoscopes and decide for

oneself which he has been able to decipher better. About whether to use 7 or 8

charakarakas, I think if K.N. Rao says one or other is wrong he has ,may be,

his own logic. I am unable to see logic behind this, The reason is that if

three or more planets merge in to one karakatwa, what is to be done for the

rest karaka bhavas according to him would be interesting to know. The sages say

that in such cases the naisargik Karkas are to be used in vacant places. So

obviously 8 Karaka ownerships would remain, whether 7 or 8 planets are used. Or

at least this is what my Viveka tells me. I rather think that becoming one

charakaraka or other does not deprive any planet of his naisargika karakatwa

and planets are given karakatwas of all 12 bhavas.[Rath:] SMILE..Chandrasekhar

ji. That was a nice one. Of course the karakatva is co-existant.

Having said that where I differ from others is that, I think the Sage has

clearly indicated that the Charakarakas results for a native are to be

deciphered from their position in navamsha occupied by them and relative

position from karakamsha of other planets wrt Karakamsha, whereas what I find

is that Charakaraktwa is being applied to Natal chart. Either my knowledge is

defficient or I have not come accross any such reference during the course of

my studies.[Rath:] Are you sure. Lets see off hand I give you a quote - if the

lord of the Moon sign were the Atmakaraka and was strong or in Kendra or Kona

the native shall have Rajyoga in his late life. Now this relates to the rasi

chart. (I thank my Gurudeva for this great blessing of memory..His mantra never

fails me).

My own view of interpreting atma of Kalapurusha with reference to Jyotish is

to take the term to mean the Atmbala of the Jataka, this at least for me is

different and distinct from Atman,which is in every living being..The reson for

this thinking is that Sun is said to be atma of Kalapurusha(Sarvatmaa ca

divaanatho), [Rath:] Of course the Sun is sarvaatma and that is why the atma is

the svarupa of the sun. Ideally it is supposed to be of perfect satva guna like

the sun, but is it really? If it were then why did it incarnate?

Moon the Mana and so on while describing various organs of the Kalapurusha. Had

that Atman, Sun would not have been attributed rulership over father and Ketu

over Moksha. [Rath:] Not clear. Can you rephrase this please.

Sun would also not have been classified as Krura Graha being Naisargika

Atmakaraka. [Rath:] Krura and saumya is a svabhava attributed to the feelings

of the mana when there is an interaction. At the atma level there is no such

feeling. It is krura as it burns. Moon is saumya as it soothes. Here the

burning and soothing sensation is the interaction of the senses and the mana is

getting a feedback. In fact burning is the best spiritual remedy that is why

Tapas is said to be the ignition of the spiritual fire.

Even according to mythology Sun got the sunholes when he went to see his Son

Saturn, his sarathi got paralysed and Horses became blind. This therefore could

not be the atman within the Jevatma described by the Lord when he says" Nainan

Chndanti shastraaNi, nainan dahati paavaka...". [Rath:] Much before visiting

Saturn, the Sun also married, so how can the atma marry, the Sun also had

children, how can the atma have children, and the atma was also born!! so how

can the atma have a father. And if the atma was not born then he does not have

a father, and this contradicts the basic statement of Krishna (or Shiva or Holy

father) that He is the father of all...you see where this logic is going. So the

Sun is not the Atma! Now now where are we heading.

Chandrasekhar ji there are different planes of consciousness and these grahas

are only SYMBOLIC - what is called NIMITTA. The Sun is not my Atma but is

symbolic of my atma. I can see very clearly that the sun that rises every

morning is quite different from me and I am within my body and the Sun

(physical) is coutside my body. When the temperature touched 46C today and

there was no electricity for two days now (we have intermittent periods of

electricity for 1 hour now and then), then I realised what the rishi meant by

saying Sun is a krura graha!!! Here it was the physical consciousness level.

Then I took a bath and sat down for the prayers and todays meditation was a

debate on which of the three Brhma Vishnu or Mahesha should be the naisargika

atmakaraka as this is the king...the spiritual king as well. Debated on the

great secret mantra "Shivohamasmi"..wondered a lot. still wondering.

Atman on the other hand is without attachment so how could karaka for atma( if

it also means Atman) be given the status of Royalty together with Moon who gets

other Royal status. Royalty indicates wish of aquiring by faith. At least this

is the way I see things. I could be wrong.[Rath:] Royalty today has come to

mean enjoyment and acquisition. The minds of people have become biased due to

the media coverage of the Royal family of England. However, Royal means ruling

power i.e. the power to decide and direct. The Atma decides how long it wishes

to stay in the sinful body and leaves as it pleases. The atma is the boss no

doubt.

Again Chara Atmakaraka in Pisces Karakamsha indicates final emancipation and

so if the Lord of Pisces, Jupiter is the Atman there is definitely logic to it.

Jupiter or Guru indicates awastha of Ataman in true sense. A Guru (or the

Gurutatva within the teacher)is neither unhappy nor happy by failures or

achievements of shishya and is a true yogi as defined by the Lord in answer to

Arjuna's query "Sthitapradnyasya kaa bhaasha samadhistha Keshava..."This is the

reason I think that Atman and Atma of kalapurusha are two different entities.

However this my personal opinion.[Rath:] No Jupiter in all signs represents the

presence of divinity (Prasna Marga) but Jupiter cannot be the Karaka for the

self. There is a difference between the benediction of God (Jupiter) and God

(Sun).

My comments about tripod reffered to the Dharma Trikona which is the

foundation of horoscope and hence instead of reffering the apex as lagna I said

Dharma i.e the Ascendant, Bhagya the 9th house and Buddhi the 5th house. I

remember my father telling me that one must first analyze these three houses to

understand the psyche of a Jataka and understand his reaction under stress as

well as his concept of Dharma, if an astrologer really wants to help the

jataka. I am sorry my use of different synonym for Ascendant caused you to

dwell on it unnecessarily.[Rath:] That true that the Lagna trikona are vital

but then how did Dharma come from the first house?? I think this was a slip,

its ok. leave it.

About differentiation of the Karma, I would look at dignities (whether

positive or negative) of Sun the Atmakaraka, Jupiter the Dnyanaadhipati and

Saturn the renunciate. I would also look at Karaka of Mana the Moon and Budha

the converter of perception to stored experience ( Buddhi). I would then give

a heavy weightage in favour of dignities of Jupiter and Saturn to arrive at the

progress of atma of a jataka on the path to moksha. As rightly said by you, the

planets and bhavas do not operate in isolation, and therefore this is the

approach I take. Others may have other approach. [Rath:] Fair enough

I have visited the links provided by you and have gone throughthe exhaustive

material there. You are doing a wonderful job in presenting Jyotish in its

proper perspective. This has also given me a new direction and thought process

for interpretation of Bhagvadgita . I shall try to corelate what the Lird has

said to the Jyotish and if I find anything of interest from point of view of

Jyotish, I shall attempt to send it to you. I am not very good at sanskrita and

it takes me awhile to get all the nuances of what the Lord intends to convey. I

find new meaning to every shloka every time that I read the Divine

shashtra.[Rath:] My gurudeva said that he who can understand the Jyotish in the

Gita shall be a Daivagyna. That is why I extoll all my students to work on 3

books Gita, BPHS and Jaimini sutra. Gita seems easy but is the most

challenging.

I take this opportunity to thank you for your patience and paying me

compliments where none are due. At this stage of my life my only prayer to lord

is that I get to interact and learn from Panditas, the ultimate truth which is

at the feet of Mrutyunjaya.

With warm regards,

Chandrashekhar.[Rath:] Dhanyavad Chandrasekhar ji. We know that the word/name of

Jupiter is Jiva as given by Siva and hence the bijakshara JUM is the Mrityunjaya

Bija mantra. Now we should not confuse. Jupiter is not Jivatma but the protector

of the Jivatma like He protected Indra (another Aditya-Sun) from the anger of

Shiva in the form of the Avadhuta Brahmana.

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June 11, 2003

Respected Sanjayji,

Thanks for your encouraging words. What ever i shared - was taught to me by my

siksha guru Swami Chinmayanandaji. i feel delighted by sharing these tit bits

with others and as you have told - the more we think and discuss on such

matters, more meanings and thaughts comes out every time.

To further the meaning of Karma, not only eating of antilope by lion is out of

the karmik cycle - but killing of enemies in the war front also is out of these

karmic cycle. But similar acts by an individual with petty interest opens an

wide door into this cycle. it is said that even sages cannot understand the

movement of karma.

Regards

jk

-

Sanjay Rath

vedic astrology

Thursday, June 12, 2003 4:32 AM

RE: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions

|brihaspatim varenyam|

Dear J K da,

Simply brilliant! Samadhi is that state of 'sleep' the AK yearns for. I have

seen different versions of what various astrologers understood from that simple

statement. In fact this is the essence of the teaching of the Gita - at every

age and at every stage there is a different meaning. Know that we know not and

like blind men having developed a friendship with one purpose - the search for

light/sight of Jyotish, we help each other along the way. None is ahead and

none is behind for we do not know where we stand nor where we are headed.

Gopal, Yoga nidra is the begining. Try it...no sin really when you are in this state.

Another thing about Karma - when the Lion eats the antelope, there is no sin but

if man does it there is sin...so do we sin when we breathe??

~ om tat sat ~

Yours in this quest for the light of Jyotish,

Sanjay Rath

---------------------------

H-5, B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India

+91-674-2436871 http://srath.com

---------------------------

j.k. dasgupta

[dgassociates (AT) sify (DOT) com]Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:44 PMTo:

vedic astrologySubject: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th

mumbai meeting discussions