Mayavada Fallacy

April 30, 2003

Dear Chandrasehkhar,

Namaste -

At 12:47 AM 5/1/03 +0530, you wrote:

Dear

Kasim,

Where does the lord say that the spritual

master must have a lineage and one must serve him like a menial servant

to obtain knowledge. If you read Shirmad-Bhagvadgita you will find Arjuna

some times questioning the logic of the advice of the Lord and the Lord

paitiently explaining the reasoning to him. And if automatic blessings

with spiritual understanding is possible for a "Spiritual Guru with

lineage", do you think it was not possible for Lord

Krishna?

Chandrashekhar.

You are asking for quotations on the above, and I will provide them for

you:

1. "Where does the lord say that the spiritual master must

have a lineage....."

Bhagavad- gita, 4.2:

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

"This supreme science was thus received through the chain of

disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way.

" The operative word here is "parampara", or

disciplic lineage.

2. ".....and one must serve him like a menial servant in order

to obtain knowledge."

Bhagavad-gita 4.34:

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The

self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen

the truth."

Here, the operative words are: Pranipatena (i.e. surrendering);

Pariprasnena (inquiring), and Sevaya (serving, as you say, like a menial

servant). By so doing, the disciple receives knowledge from he who

has seen the truth (Tattva-darsi).

Finally, prior to the event of war at Kuruksetra, Arjuna was Krsna's

friend (Sakhya-rasa), and thus was accustomed to speak and behave with

Him as if an equal. However, now his position, as of the speaking

of Bhagavad-gita, was to become his disciple. This required

different protocol. Suddenly, after seeing the immense Virata

Purusa (Universal Form) of the Lord, Arjuna humbled himself, and spoke as

follows: (Bg. 11.41-42)

sakheti matva prasabham yad uktam

he krsna he yadava he sakheti

ajanata mahimanam tavedam

maya pramadat pranayena vapi

yac cavahasartham asat-krto 'si

vihara-sayyasana-bhojanesu

eko 'tha vapy acyuta tat-samaksam

tat ksamaye tvam aham aprameyam

"Thinking of You as my friend, I have rashly addressed You

"O Krsna,O Yadava,O my friend," not

knowing Your glories. Please forgive whatever I may have done in madness

or in love. I have dishonored You many times, jesting as we relaxed,

laying on the same bed, or sitting or eathing together, sometimes alone

and sometimes in front of many friends. O infallible one, please excuse

me for all those offenses."

Thus, whereas Arjuna could address Krsna in any way he wished prior to

the point of hearing Bhagavad-gita, it was now imperative that he

surrender exclusively, give up argument, and become a humble

disciple. From Chapter 11 of the Gita onward, you will not

hear Arjuna say anything to doubt or question Sri Krsna.

OM TAT Sat

Best wishes,

Robert

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

and,

http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com

or

Ph: 541.318.0248

April 30, 2003

Dear Robertji

thank you,

you took the owrds right out my mouth!!

I hope it helps u somewhat, respected Chandrasehkar

Best wishes

Kasim

vedic astrology, "Robert A. Koch" <rk@r...>

wrote:

> Dear Chandrasehkhar,

>

> Namaste -

>

> At 12:47 AM 5/1/03 +0530, you wrote:

> >Dear Kasim,

> >Where does the lord say that the spritual master must have a

lineage and

> >one must serve him like a menial servant to obtain knowledge. If

you read

> >Shirmad-Bhagvadgita you will find Arjuna some times questioning

the logic

> >of the advice of the Lord and the Lord paitiently explaining the

reasoning

> >to him. And if automatic blessings with spiritual understanding is

> >possible for a "Spiritual Guru with lineage", do you think it was

not

> >possible for Lord Krishna?

> >Chandrashekhar.

>

> You are asking for quotations on the above, and I will provide them

for you:

>

> 1. "Where does the lord say that the spiritual master must have a

> lineage....."

>

> Bhagavad- gita, 4.2:

> evam parampara-praptam

> imam rajarsayo viduh

>

> "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of

disciplic

> succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. " The

> operative word here is "parampara", or disciplic lineage.

>

> 2. ".....and one must serve him like a menial servant in order to

obtain

> knowledge."

>

> Bhagavad-gita 4.34:

> tad viddhi pranipatena

> pariprasnena sevaya

> upadeksyanti te jnanam

> jnaninas tattva-darsinah

>

> "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

Inquire

> from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-

realized souls

> can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth."

>

> Here, the operative words are: Pranipatena (i.e. surrendering);

> Pariprasnena (inquiring), and Sevaya (serving, as you say, like a

menial

> servant). By so doing, the disciple receives knowledge from he who

has

> seen the truth (Tattva-darsi).

>

> Finally, prior to the event of war at Kuruksetra, Arjuna was

Krsna's friend

> (Sakhya-rasa), and thus was accustomed to speak and behave with Him

as if

> an equal. However, now his position, as of the speaking of

Bhagavad-gita,

> was to become his disciple. This required different protocol.

Suddenly,

> after seeing the immense Virata Purusa (Universal Form) of the

Lord, Arjuna

> humbled himself, and spoke as follows: (Bg. 11.41-42)

> sakheti matva prasabham yad uktam

> he krsna he yadava he sakheti

> ajanata mahimanam tavedam

> maya pramadat pranayena vapi

>

> yac cavahasartham asat-krto 'si

> vihara-sayyasana-bhojanesu

> eko 'tha vapy acyuta tat-samaksam

> tat ksamaye tvam aham aprameyam

>

> "Thinking of You as my friend, I have rashly addressed You "O

Krsna,O

> Yadava,O my friend," not knowing Your glories. Please forgive

whatever I

> may have done in madness or in love. I have dishonored You many

times,

> jesting as we relaxed, laying on the same bed, or sitting or

eathing

> together, sometimes alone and sometimes in front of many friends. O

> infallible one, please excuse me for all those offenses."

>

> Thus, whereas Arjuna could address Krsna in any way he wished prior

to the

> point of hearing Bhagavad-gita, it was now imperative that he

surrender

> exclusively, give up argument, and become a humble disciple. From

Chapter

> 11 of the Gita onward, you will not hear Arjuna say anything to

doubt or

> question Sri Krsna.

>

> OM TAT Sat

>

> Best wishes,

> Robert

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

> Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA

> visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and,

> http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or

> Ph: 541.318.0248

April 30, 2003

|| Om Gurave Namah :: Om Namo Naaraayanaaya ||

Namaste,

I, like many others on the list, have been following the debate with great

interest and learning a lot from it.

And, so far, this debate was going on in the true tradition of SHASTRARTHA - a

tribute to the Gurus and scholars on this list.

In this same spirit, I just want to comment on some of the following points

made by Guru Robert Koch.

1. "Where does the lord say that the spiritual master must have a lineage....."

Bhagavad- gita, 4.2:

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

"This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic

succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. " The operative

word here is "parampara", or disciplic lineage.

Bhagvaan only explains that this knowledge (as explained in earlier chapters)

was handed down thus in regular succession of royal sages ( 4.1 I taught this

imperishable yoga to Vivasvan; he told it to Manu; Manu proclaimed it to

Ikshavaku). It has been lost through the lapse of time.

So, this cannot be read out of context.

Here the reference is to the knowledge/ science pronounced in the preceding

(two) chapters and this verse is in continuation to the verse 4.1.

Also, there is no INJUNCTION for a "disciplic succession" that the knowledge

SHOULD be handed down through "parampara" or that the spiritual master must

have a lineage.

Are you implying here that a “self-realized” learned man CANNOT BE A SPIRITUAL

TEACHER?? That would be stretching the interpretation to the extremes.

2. ".....and one must serve him like a menial servant in order to obtain knowledge."

Bhagavad-gita 4.34:

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him

submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart

knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth."

Chandrasekhar had enquired about the statement “one must serve him like a menial

servant to obtain knowledge”.

Your statement only supports his contention. The “service” mentioned here is not

‘menial service” and it is DEFINITELY NOT THAT SERVICE ALONE WILL ENSURE

KNOWLEDGE.

The verse, if read in totality, instructs one to be respectful to the teacher,

to seek clarifications from him and to render ‘seva’ unto him – it is all three

and, to me, the instruction regarding ‘seva’ appears to be to instill a sense on

humility in the student – but not as his primary, or THE ONLY, duty.

The operative part is “pariprasnena” – the knowledge can be obtained through

questioning (and not through “unquestioning” obedience). The other two

instructions, “pranipatena” and “sevaya” are for moulding the attitude of the

enquirer, so that he/ she has proper respect and humility towards the teacher.

We have to understand that the student has to be curious and inquisitive, he HAS

TO ask questions and seek answers to understand – questioning is not to be

misunderstood for dis-respect, as long as it is respectful and with humility.

And, what is the purpose of quoting the 11.41-42. Does it have any relevance

with the points under discussion.

Regards & best wishes,

Shailesh

-

Robert A. Koch

vedic astrology

Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:56 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mayavada Fallacy

Dear Chandrasehkhar, Namaste - At 12:47 AM 5/1/03 +0530, you wrote:

Dear Kasim,Where does the lord say that the spritual master must have a lineage

and one must serve him like a menial servant to obtain knowledge. If you read

Shirmad-Bhagvadgita you will find Arjuna some times questioning the logic of

the advice of the Lord and the Lord paitiently explaining the reasoning to him.

And if automatic blessings with spiritual understanding is possible for a

"Spiritual Guru with lineage", do you think it was not possible for Lord

Krishna?Chandrashekhar.

You are asking for quotations on the above, and I will provide them for you: 1.

"Where does the lord say that the spiritual master must have a

lineage....."Bhagavad- gita, 4.2:

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

"This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic

succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. " The operative

word here is "parampara", or disciplic lineage. 2. ".....and one must serve

him like a menial servant in order to obtain knowledge."Bhagavad-gita 4.34:

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him

submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart

knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth." Here, the operative

words are: Pranipatena (i.e. surrendering); Pariprasnena (inquiring), and

Sevaya (serving, as you say, like a menial servant). By so doing, the disciple

receives knowledge from he who has seen the truth (Tattva-darsi). Finally,

prior to the event of war at Kuruksetra, Arjuna was Krsna's friend

(Sakhya-rasa), and thus was accustomed to speak and behave with Him as if an

equal. However, now his position, as of the speaking of Bhagavad-gita, was to

become his disciple. This required different protocol. Suddenly, after seeing

the immense Virata Purusa (Universal Form) of the Lord, Arjuna humbled himself,

and spoke as follows: (Bg. 11.41-42)

sakheti matva prasabham yad uktam

he krsna he yadava he sakheti

ajanata mahimanam tavedam

maya pramadat pranayena vapi

yac cavahasartham asat-krto 'si

vihara-sayyasana-bhojanesu

eko 'tha vapy acyuta tat-samaksam

tat ksamaye tvam aham aprameyam

"Thinking of You as my friend, I have rashly addressed You "O Krsna,O

Yadava,O my friend," not knowing Your glories. Please forgive whatever I may

have done in madness or in love. I have dishonored You many times, jesting as we

relaxed, laying on the same bed, or sitting or eathing together, sometimes alone

and sometimes in front of many friends. O infallible one, please excuse me for

all those offenses."Thus, whereas Arjuna could address Krsna in any way he

wished prior to the point of hearing Bhagavad-gita, it was now imperative that

he surrender exclusively, give up argument, and become a humble disciple.

>From Chapter 11 of the Gita onward, you will not hear Arjuna say anything to

doubt or question Sri Krsna. OM TAT SatBest wishes,Robert

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system

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4/18/2003

May 1, 2003

Dear Shailesh,

I've learnt a lot from this thread too, not least of which is that off-topic

posts are best nipped in the bud, regardless of their gravity.

I hope I don't get flamed for saying this.

Warm regards,

Ramapriya

hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com

May 1, 2003

>

> Chandrashekhar [boxdel]

> Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:47 AM

> vedic astrology

> Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mayavada Fallacy

> Dear Kasim,

> Where does the lord say that the spritual master

must have a lineage

Dear Chandrasekhar-jI,

I agree that the Lord's words do not imply that, but I

read on the advaita list (or some list on the

Internet) that Shankaracharya holds that however

intellectual a person might be, unless he is backed by

the parampara, his interpretations of shruti have no

value. You can check with someone on the advaita list

with this.

Regards,

Nomadeva

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

http://search.

May 1, 2003

Dear Robert Koch,

Thank you for the shloka.However I must point out that you have quoted only half

of the shloka and distorted the meaning.The full shloka is

"evam paramparapraptamimam rajarshayo viduH. sa kaleneha mahata yogo nashtah parantapa."

This shloka means that the yoga which I told Surya(Previous shloka) which was

received by parampara by the Rajarshis(Meaning Kings who had become Rishis by

obtaining the knowledge) and understood by them was lost (obviously by the

disciples of the rajarshis)over time. The operative is Nashta and not parampara

as suggested by you. And this as a matter of fact illustrates that knowledge

received through paramparas gets lost through time(Kaaleneha). So your

interpretation appears wrong, specially when one reads the shloka with the

earlier shloka.It actually strengthens my point.

About the second shloka which you have quoted, the lord does nto say anything

about only those following a parampara as dhnani. What he tells is the Hindu

etiquette of saluting the Knowledgeable and serving him(Not as a menial as said

by Mr. Kasim) in return of the knowledge given by a knowledgeable person. Hindus

in ancient times used to send their children to Gurukula and the students used

to do various sewas, as the Guru did not charge any fees, as an act of

gratitude. He further states that they will impart the true knowledge about

Tatwa (philosophy of Parmatman). So your translation does not appear to be

correct.

About Arjuna taking liberty with the lord, I do not know wherefrom you have

arrived at the conclusion about me havng said this.I had asked ,

" If you read Shirmad-Bhagvadgita you will find Arjuna some times questioning

the logic of the advice of the Lord and the Lord paitiently explaining the

reasoning to him. And if automatic blessings with spiritual understanding is

possible for a "Spiritual Guru with lineage", do you think it was not possible

for Lord Krishna?"

You have neatly side-stepped the question and have told about how Arjuna paid

respect to the Lord after he saw the Virata Rupa. For the record Arjuna had

already accpted before the Virata Rupa darshan as evident from the 11th

Adhyaaya. As a matter of fact if you read shloka 72 of adhyaaya 18 the Lord

again asks Arjuna whether he has listened to the shastra with concentration and

whether his doubts are now removed.

You may like to read the Commentary of Swami Chinmayananda on the holy

Gita.Though I am not quoting from it. Again for your and Mr. Kasim's

information Sant Dhnaneshwar had written Dhnaneshwari( commentary on

Bhagavdgita) much earlier and it is accepted as an authoritative work by all

Hindus. Sant Dhneshwar was extermely young when he wrote it and his only Guru

was his elder brother who had no Parampara. The lord's grace on him made him

make a Buffalow recite Vedas when traditionalist Bramhins(The cast) of his

native Aalandi town tried to ridicule his knowledge. He also once is said to

have made a wall walk to remove Ahankara of Saint Changdeo who was about 180

years of age and could ride a tiger.

Chandrashekhar.

-

Robert A. Koch

vedic astrology

Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:56 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mayavada Fallacy

Dear Chandrasehkhar, Namaste - At 12:47 AM 5/1/03 +0530, you wrote:

Dear Kasim,Where does the lord say that the spritual master must have a lineage

and one must serve him like a menial servant to obtain knowledge. If you read

Shirmad-Bhagvadgita you will find Arjuna some times questioning the logic of

the advice of the Lord and the Lord paitiently explaining the reasoning to him.

And if automatic blessings with spiritual understanding is possible for a

"Spiritual Guru with lineage", do you think it was not possible for Lord

Krishna?Chandrashekhar.You are asking for quotations on the above, and I will

provide them for you: 1. "Where does the lord say that the spiritual master

must have a lineage....."Bhagavad- gita, 4.2:

evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh"This supreme science was thus

received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings

understood it in that way. " The operative word here is "parampara", or

disciplic lineage. 2. ".....and one must serve him like a menial servant in

order to obtain knowledge."Bhagavad-gita 4.34:

tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas

tattva-darsinah"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized

souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth." Here,

the operative words are: Pranipatena (i.e. surrendering); Pariprasnena

(inquiring), and Sevaya (serving, as you say, like a menial servant). By so

doing, the disciple receives knowledge from he who has seen the truth

(Tattva-darsi). Finally, prior to the event of war at Kuruksetra, Arjuna was

Krsna's friend (Sakhya-rasa), and thus was accustomed to speak and behave with

Him as if an equal. However, now his position, as of the speaking of

Bhagavad-gita, was to become his disciple. This required different protocol.

Suddenly, after seeing the immense Virata Purusa (Universal Form) of the Lord,

Arjuna humbled himself, and spoke as follows: (Bg. 11.41-42)

sakheti matva prasabham yad uktam he krsna he yadava he sakheti ajanata

mahimanam tavedam maya pramadat pranayena vapi

yac cavahasartham asat-krto 'si vihara-sayyasana-bhojanesu eko 'tha vapy acyuta

tat-samaksam tat ksamaye tvam aham aprameyam"Thinking of You as my friend, I

have rashly addressed You "O Krsna,O Yadava,O my friend," not knowing

Your glories. Please forgive whatever I may have done in madness or in love. I

have dishonored You many times, jesting as we relaxed, laying on the same bed,

or sitting or eathing together, sometimes alone and sometimes in front of many

friends. O infallible one, please excuse me for all those offenses."Thus,

whereas Arjuna could address Krsna in any way he wished prior to the point of

hearing Bhagavad-gita, it was now imperative that he surrender exclusively,

give up argument, and become a humble disciple. From Chapter 11 of the Gita

onward, you will not hear Arjuna say anything to doubt or question Sri Krsna.

OM TAT SatBest wishes,Robert

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and,

http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or

Ph: 541.318.0248Archives: vedic astrologyGroup

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light shine on us .......|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu

||

May 1, 2003

Dear Nomadeva,

I am really surprised about your turn around. In an earlier mail you call Adwita

vadis and by implication Shankaracharya something else. I Paste what you said

below.

Secondly, the swami you have mentioned represents acertain tradition and it is a

silly (and terriblyuninfomed) opinion to assume that his traditionrepresents the

Hindus. If you, in particular, thinkso, I think you need a lot of reading up.Now

it would be better that you decide who needs to read up.

Chandrashekhar.

-

Nomadeva Sharma

vedic astrology

Thursday, May 01, 2003 8:19 PM

RE: [vedic astrology] Re: Mayavada Fallacy

> > Chandrashekhar [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk] >

Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:47 AM> vedic astrology>

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mayavada Fallacy> Dear Kasim,> Where does

the lord say that the spritual mastermust have a lineageDear Chandrasekhar-jI,I

agree that the Lord's words do not imply that, but Iread on the advaita list (or

some list on theInternet) that Shankaracharya holds that howeverintellectual a

person might be, unless he is backed bythe parampara, his interpretations of

shruti have novalue. You can check with someone on the advaita listwith

this.Regards,NomadevaThe New

Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.http://search.Archives:

vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

May 1, 2003

Dear Shailesha,

You said it.

Chandrashekhar.

-

Shailesh Chadha

vedic astrology

Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:33 AM