Guest guest Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:37 AM Dear Shri Chandrasekhar-jI, > Dear Nomadeva , > I do not understand the reason of your calling the references in > Purana that ar not > supportive of your theory as Bogus, much less the attack launched on PVR Narasimharaoji. Two clarifications here. One, I did not say that Puranas not supportive of my theory are bogus. I was saying that those quotes cannot be wished away as interpolations. If you are referring to the Upanishads stuff, note that I was even considering even those upanishads that are supportive of the system I follow as bogus. And there were reasons to say that muktikA is bogus. It was not rejected on the basis that it opposes my theory. Two, Do not consider this as an attack on anybody, much less, PVR-jI. Doing so would be baseless; perhaps as much as saying that PVR-jI was attacking Sri Gauranga Das-jI and others. > However since you take great pleasure in relegating all gods other > than Vishnu and Krishna to a secondary > position and ask for original shlokas, I would like you to give your meaning of the following shlokas in > "Shrimadbhagavadgita" and what meaning should be attributed to it. "Adhyaaya 3 shloka 14/15". > Also since you treat Vishnu, Krishna and rama as different entities, > will you explain the meaning of I don't know how you got this idea. I hold all these to be the same. It appears that the mail hasn't been read properly. > I would also like to understand why you , on one hand profess Vishnu > and Krishna to be supreme and try not > to understand what the Lord says in Adhyaaya5 Shloka 18, as it sums up the logic behind our argument that > all Gods are Rupas of the same Paratman. 5.18: vidyAvinayasampanne brAhmaNe gavi hastini | shuni chaiva shvapAke cha paNDitAH samadarshinaH || Where does this say that all Gods are Rupas of Paramatma? It says that Panditas should have 'sama-darshana' towards the entities mentioned over there. And what exactly is this sama-darshana? To understand that there is no difference in the Paramatma who is situated in each of the different entities. To assume that the Lord is expecting the paNDita to consider every entity listed above to be of equal inherent worth is wrong; in fact, no commentator, including Shankaracharya, has said that. Here's what he says: uttamasaMskAravati brAhmaNe sAttvike, madhyamAyAM ca rAjasyAM gavi, saMskArahInAyAm atyantameva kevalatAmase hastyAdau ca, sattvAdiguNaiH tajjaishca saMskAraiH tathA rAjasaiH tathA tAmasaishca saMskAraiH atyantameva aspR^iShTaM samam ekam avikriyaM tat brahma draShTuM shIlaM yeShAM te paNDitAH samadarshinaH | Thus even your school of thought says that a paNDita sees the same Brahman everywhere. Now, that has got nothing to do with 'All Gods are rupas of same Paramatman'. Had they been so, they wouldn't have flaws. > I would definitely like to hear your logic behind trying not to > understand the meaning of this statement of the Lord .. It is always easy to feel that way if somebody is not concurring with your ideas. > If I remember my religion right, only Lord Shiva is called > Bhootnath.Could you Quote where Vishnu is > called SarvabhUaAnAmadhipatiH? Multiple places. For one, check vanaparva of Mahabharata: sraShTAraM sarvabhUtAnAmasito devalo.abravIt.h viShNus tvam asi durdharSa tvaM yaj~no madhusUdana yaShTA tvamasi yaShTavyo jAmadagnyo yathAbravIt.h ... IshastvaM sarvabhUtAnAM ye divyA ye ca mAnuShAH | Anyway, you're mistaking the sanskrit word 'bhUta' to Hindi word 'bhoot'. The former means 'beings', the latter means 'ghost'. Shiva is called 'bhootnath' because he is their Lord. > Let me make it clear that I do not mean that Vishnu or Krishna is > lesser than Shiva or for that matter any of the Gods as I believe that all > gods are manifestation of the Superme that is the Parmatman. > > Our Diety is Tirupati Baalaaji, lest you turn the debate to Shaiva > Vaishnava debate. If you recollect, it was you who proposed that it was Vaishnavas who wrote the stuff in Garuda Purana. My mail never mentioned about any religious group; instead gave the quotes. Please do not assume anything. Regards, Nomadeva > > Regards, > > Chandrashekhar. The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Dear Nomadeva, I think that you are retracting from your statement of having called scriptural refernces as available as bogus on the one hand and are again calling Upanishads as bogus on the other. Your intent is clear from the way you have neatly sidestepped giving answer about your meaning of Adhya3 Shloka 14 & 15. Should you not have it at hand I give it below. annadbhavanti bhUtaani parjanyaadnnsambhavaH. yadhnaadbhvati parjanyo yadhnaH karmasamudbhavH. karma branhodbhavaM viddhi brmhaakshrasamudbhavam. tasmatsarvagataM bramha nityaM yadhne pratishThitam. To which akshar and Bramha do you think the Lord is reffering here? Either you are choosing to put the meaning that suits you or you are not able to understand why I asked your opinion about the Shloka" Vidya vinay sampanne..." The reason I asked is simple. If the Lord, when he explains about who attains or to be more precise who is established in the Lord, tells arjuna in context of the Lakshanas of a Pandita that a Knower of truth(the swarupa of Lord) views even the Cow, WElephant , Dog etc. on equal level, the intent is clear, at least to me.The Lord is trying to tell that he exists in everyone an all are but his Rupa. Would such a Lord really mean to tell his followers that One God is different and superior or inferior than other? Again I do not understand how you say Bhootnath means lord of Bhootas as in hindi. Bhoota in Bhootanath means the same Bhoota as in living beings. Recently, on the list there is a post of His Holiness Chandrashekhar Saraswati saying much the same as I am saying. I hope at least you do not question his knowledge of scriptures as you are mine and everybody elses, who happens to disagree with your theories including Upanishadkaras. By the way you are commenting about Shrutis every now and then.Shruti is what one has heard and since in Hindu's all scriptures were carried from one generation to other by recitation, they are all shrutis. If you remember, in Pujas some rituals are begun after the priest saying "Shruti-Smruti-PuraNokta", indicating Puranas as distinct from other scriptures. Think about his while saying that OPuranas were written at the time of Vedas or Upanishadas. It would be better to find out whether Vedas and Upanishads were written when they evolved, and why the Dharma is called Sanaatan. Regards Chandrashekhar. - Nomadeva Sharma vedic astrology Tuesday, April 29, 2003 8:03 PM RE: [vedic astrology] To Chandrasekhar-jI > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk]> Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:37 AMDear Shri Chandrasekhar-jI,> Dear Nomadeva ,> I do not understand the reason of your calling thereferences in> Purana that ar not> supportive of your theory as Bogus, much less theattack launched on PVR Narasimharaoji.Two clarifications here. One, I did not say that Puranas not supportive of my theoryare bogus. I was saying that those quotes cannot bewished away as interpolations. If you are referring tothe Upanishads stuff, note that I was even consideringeven those upanishads that are supportive of thesystem I follow as bogus. And there were reasons tosay that muktikA is bogus. It was not rejected on thebasis that it opposes my theory. Two, Do not consider this as an attack on anybody, muchless, PVR-jI. Doing so would be baseless; perhaps asmuch as saying that PVR-jI was attacking Sri GaurangaDas-jI and others.> However since you take great pleasure in relegatingall gods other> than Vishnu and Krishna to a secondary> position and ask for original shlokas, I would likeyou to give your meaning of the following shlokas in > "Shrimadbhagavadgita" and what meaning should beattributed to it. "Adhyaaya 3 shloka 14/15".> Also since you treat Vishnu, Krishna and rama asdifferent entities,> will you explain the meaning ofI don't know how you got this idea. I hold all theseto be the same. It appears that the mail hasn't beenread properly.> I would also like to understand why you , on onehand profess Vishnu> and Krishna to be supreme and try not> to understand what the Lord says in Adhyaaya5 Shloka18, as it sums up the logic behind our argument that > all Gods are Rupas of the same Paratman.5.18: vidyAvinayasampanne brAhmaNe gavi hastini |shuni chaiva shvapAke cha paNDitAH samadarshinaH || Where does this say that all Gods are Rupas ofParamatma? It says that Panditas should have'sama-darshana' towards the entities mentioned overthere. And what exactly is this sama-darshana? Tounderstand that there is no difference in theParamatma who is situated in each of the differententities. To assume that the Lord is expecting thepaNDita to consider every entity listed above to be ofequal inherent worth is wrong; in fact, nocommentator, including Shankaracharya, has said that.Here's what he says:uttamasaMskAravati brAhmaNe sAttvike, madhyamAyAM carAjasyAM gavi, saMskArahInAyAm atyantamevakevalatAmase hastyAdau ca, sattvAdiguNaiH tajjaishcasaMskAraiH tathA rAjasaiH tathA tAmasaishca saMskAraiHatyantameva aspR^iShTaM samam ekam avikriyaM tatbrahma draShTuM shIlaM yeShAM te paNDitAHsamadarshinaH |Thus even your school of thought says that a paNDitasees the same Brahman everywhere.Now, that has got nothing to do with 'All Gods arerupas of same Paramatman'. Had they been so, theywouldn't have flaws.> I would definitely like to hear your logic behindtrying not to> understand the meaning of this statement of the Lord.It is always easy to feel that way if somebody is notconcurring with your ideas.> If I remember my religion right, only Lord Shiva iscalled> Bhootnath.Could you Quote where Vishnu is> called SarvabhUaAnAmadhipatiH?Multiple places. For one, check vanaparva ofMahabharata:sraShTAraM sarvabhUtAnAmasito devalo.abravIt.hviShNus tvam asi durdharSa tvaM yaj~no madhusUdanayaShTA tvamasi yaShTavyo jAmadagnyo yathAbravIt.h..IshastvaM sarvabhUtAnAM ye divyA ye ca mAnuShAH |Anyway, you're mistaking the sanskrit word 'bhUta' toHindi word 'bhoot'. The former means 'beings', thelatter means 'ghost'. Shiva is called 'bhootnath'because he is their Lord.> Let me make it clear that I do not mean that Vishnuor Krishna is> lesser than Shiva or for that matter any of the Godsas I believe that all > gods are manifestation of the Superme that is theParmatman.> > Our Diety is Tirupati Baalaaji, lest you turn thedebate to Shaiva> Vaishnava debate.If you recollect, it was you who proposed that it wasVaishnavas who wrote the stuff in Garuda Purana. Mymail never mentioned about any religious group;instead gave the quotes. Please do not assumeanything.Regards,Nomadeva> > Regards,> > Chandrashekhar.The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.http://search.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:22 AM > Dear Nomadeva, > I think that you are retracting from your statement of having called > scriptural refernces as available as bogus on the one hand and are > again calling Upanishads as bogus on the other. Where in my mail have I said that Puranas are bogus? If you are referring to PVR-jI's mail and my saying some Puranas are tAmasic, then I'd like to highlight the point I made in another reply. That some Puranas are tAmasic is NOT my idea; it is there in the Puranas. So, your charge that _I am_ dismissing such puranas because they don't suit my thesis is baseless. On the other hand, you or PVR-jI idea that such that don't suit YOUR thesis are interpolations and, thereby, bogus. > Your intent is clear from the way you have neatly sidestepped giving > answer about your meaning of Adhya3 Shloka 14 & 15. Should you not > have it at hand I give it below. > annadbhavanti bhUtaani parjanyaadnnsambhavaH. > yadhnaadbhvati parjanyo yadhnaH karmasamudbhavH. > karma branhodbhavaM viddhi brmhaakshrasamudbhavam. tasmatsarvagataM > bramha nityaM yadhne pratishThitam. To which akshar and Bramha do you > think the Lord is reffering here? By brahma, the Lord is referring to the Brahman. By axara, He is referring to the Vedas. The phrase 'brahma axarasamudbhavaM' is that 'brahman is known only through the Axara, i.e. Vedas. It has absolutely none of the stuff you speak. > Either you are choosing to put the meaning that suits you or you are > not able to understand why I asked your opinion about the Shloka" > Vidya vinay sampanne..." Chandrasekhar-jI, why don't you be direct instead of giving hints at what you wish to drive at? It will quicken the discussion, don't you think? > The reason I asked is simple. If the Lord, when he explains about who > attains or to be more precise who is established in the Lord, tells > arjuna in context of the Lakshanas of a Pandita that a Knower of > truth(the swarupa of Lord) views even the Cow, WElephant , Dog etc. on > equal level, the intent is clear, at least to me. PVR-jI has said that your point in asking for this couplet of verses is the phrase 'sarvagataM brahma', which is all-pervading. You have also said such a thing. A point both of you have missed is that all-pervasion does not imply identity of all (I will come to the so-called mahAvAkyAs later). It will render most of the Gita rather useless; like, 'matsthAni sarvabhUtAni na chAhaM teShvavasthitaH' or 'aprApya mAM nivartante mR^ityusaMsAravartmani' or 'yasmAtxaramatIto.ahamaxarAdapi chottamaH | ato.asmi loke vede cha prathitaH puruShottamaH ||' or even the first set of verses ' natvevAhaM jAtu nAsaM na tvaM neme janAdhipAH | na chaiva na bhaviShyAmaH sarve vayamataH param.h' (because of the plural). If absolute identity were to be the import of all-pervasion, what then is the point of Krishna even instructing Gita to Arjuna? If you were to blame it on ignorance or mAyA or avidyA or whatever, how come it doesn't hit you that Brahman, who is otherwise akhaNDa (partless) has one part in ignorance and the other part instructing the former? (Advaita will look like a fairy tale if you analyse it, instead of learning it!) > The Lord is trying to tell that he exists in everyone an all are but > his Rupa. You are putting your words into the Lord's mouth. In the verse under discussion, He simply says that He is present equally in objects, even of those of unequal worth. You are saying that everyone is his rUpa. If everyone were his rUpa, what is the point in saying 'I am present _in_ everything equally'? The very usage of locative (or saptamI vibhakti) says that everyone is NOT his rUpa. Secondly, if everything were His rUpa, there will be no point in having the adjective 'equally'. > Would such a Lord really mean to tell his followers that One God is > different and superior or inferior than other? You are mixing too many issues here. The Lord ofcourse tells us that He is the most superior to all other beings. Refer to the 15th chapter, for a sample. He also talks about worshippers of 'anya devatA' (Pls see response to PVR-jI's mail). > Again I do not understand how you say Bhootnath means lord of Bhootas > as in hindi. Bhoota in Bhootanath means the same Bhoota as in living > beings. I cannot help you here. You need to find out the origin of 'bhootnath' of Hindi. It is, in any case, irrelevant to the discussion. You had asked for quotes where Vishnu is called 'sarvabhUtAnAM adhipatiH' and that was given (I had given one from anushAsana parva). > Recently, on the list there is a post of His Holiness Chandrashekhar > Saraswati saying much the same as I am saying. I hope at least you do > not question his knowledge of scriptures as you are mine and everybody > elses, who happens to disagree with your theories including > Upanishadkaras. The problem is you are assuming that whole world agrees with advaita and its proponents. It is not so. The Upanishads are a far cry from advaita. There is not a single mention of the 'nirguNa' concept (don’t tell that Shvetashvatara uses the word, 'nirguNa'. It uses that with a host of other adjectives). Secondly, the swami you have mentioned represents a certain tradition and it is a silly (and terribly uninfomed) opinion to assume that his tradition represents the Hindus. If you, in particular, think so, I think you need a lot of reading up. > By the way you are commenting about Shrutis every now and then.Shruti > is what one has heard and since in > Hindu's all scriptures were carried from one generation to other by recitation, they are all shrutis. If you > remember, in Pujas some rituals are begun after the priest saying "Shruti-Smruti-PuraNokta", indicating > Puranas as distinct from other scriptures. Think about his while saying that OPuranas were written at the > time of Vedas or Upanishadas. It would be better to find out whether Vedas and Upanishads were written when > they evolved, and why the Dharma is called Sanaatan. Pls read my mail properly. I have distinguished between Puranas and Vedas. The former are paurusheya while the latter are not. Did your priest claim that the order corresponds to the order in which these texts were written down? If he says 'yes', ask him about the mention of 'Purana' in Chandogya and Brihadaranyaka Upanishads given earlier. Actually I doubt if any vedantin worth his salt will take the words, 'Vedas were written', without a hitch. Regards, Nomadeva The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:34 AM > vedic astrology > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: To Chandrasekhar-jI (to Nomadeva) > > It was also shocking to find that those swearing by Vishnu and Krishna as personality without reference to > the Parmatman within them, had not even read the Shrimadbhagavdgita in its entirety. It is unnecessary and superimposed interpretation that it is the Paramatma IN Krishna or Vishnu saying all that. The direct meaning has no 'bAdhaka'. > In Bhagvad Gita Adhyaya 10 Shloka 3 the Lord tells about his true rupa.Again in shloka 12 the Lord tells > refers to Vishnu to be Aaditya and says that I am Vishnu amongst the Aadityas. > In Shloka 23 He states that he is Shankara amongst Rudras. In SDhloka31 He says that I am Rama amongst > Armsbearers, and in Shloka 37 He says that I am Vasudeva(Krishna) amongst the Vrishni Tribe.He further says > that I am Dananjaya(Arjuna) amongst Pandavas.He also goes on to describes his Animal Rupas and so on. > Now even somebody not well versed in scriptures can tell by this that the Parmatman himself is speaking to > Arjuna and not Krishna or Vishnu, which are but forms of the Lord. The problem with such an interpretation is that Paramatma should then have the forms of 'mArgashira' mAsa, sAmaveda, silence (yes, you have to take it literally), a chandas (!), the form of spring etc. Also, what about other mAsas, other vedas, sounds, other metres, other seasons -- they are NOT forms of Paramatma? A simpler explanation that is less overbearing on one's sense of logic is that, if any speciality is seen in a certain class of objects, that speciality is due to Lord's vibhUti on/in that object or attribute. Btw, have you heard about 'sajAtIya' and 'vijAtIya' concepts? If yes, there is some chance of knowing how to interpret 'pANDAvAnAM dhananjayaH' or similar stuff vs 'AdityAnAmahaM viShNu' or 'vR^iShNInAM vAsudeva'. > Their inability to understand the reference to "Vidyavinaysampanne..." clearly indicates that they have > probably not studied this most divine of the scriptures in its entirety. Otherwise they would have > understand its connection with Shloka 3 and 20 in Adhyaya 10 where the Lord repeats the same dictum for the > benefit of Arjuna. I am surprised that it did not strike you as contradictory: If the Lord is situated 'equally' in all beings, why should He say, now, that He is so & so of a certain class. Regards, Nomadeva The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Dear Nomadeva, In another reply to Narasimharao, you have tried to belittle Shiva as only one of the Rudras,why do you not apply the same logic to what the Lord says about Vishnu and Krishna. Be kind to use same yardstick of logic to all dieties and the Lord's sayings. By not doing so it is apparent that you are not interested in a genunine discussion It is no use giving Shankaracharyas statements in one post and calling Adwaitawad as silly in other mail. This just shows that you have not understood that even the Lord in Shrimadbhagavat Gita has not called others opinion on the state of death as silly and calling names to those who do not agree with you is not an indication of a serious seeker of truth which the Lord advised Arjuna to become. Calling names to such sages as Vivekanand and Shankaracharya known to Hindus around the world as greatest proponent andprotector of hindusim respectively does not become a person who has read various Granthas. I think your translation of "Yadaa Yadaahi Dharmasya.. "does not include Abhutthana of the Dharma done by Adi Shankaracharya as to your view his philosophy is different from yours.. Chandrashekhar. - Nomadeva Sharma vedic astrology Thursday, May 01, 2003 8:33 PM RE: [vedic astrology] Re: To Chandrasekhar-jI > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk] > Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:34 AM> vedic astrology> Re: [vedic astrology] Re: ToChandrasekhar-jI (to Nomadeva)> > It was also shocking to find that those swearing byVishnu and Krishna as personality without reference to> the Parmatman within them, had not even read theShrimadbhagavdgita in its entirety.It is unnecessary and superimposed interpretation thatit is the Paramatma IN Krishna or Vishnu saying allthat. The direct meaning has no 'bAdhaka'.> In Bhagvad Gita Adhyaya 10 Shloka 3 the Lord tellsabout his true rupa.Again in shloka 12 the Lord tells > refers to Vishnu to be Aaditya and says that I amVishnu amongst the Aadityas.> In Shloka 23 He states that he is Shankara amongstRudras. In SDhloka31 He says that I am Rama amongst > Armsbearers, and in Shloka 37 He says that I amVasudeva(Krishna) amongst the Vrishni Tribe.He furthersays > that I am Dananjaya(Arjuna) amongst Pandavas.He alsogoes on to describes his Animal Rupas and so on.> Now even somebody not well versed in scriptures cantell by this that the Parmatman himself is speaking to> Arjuna and not Krishna or Vishnu, which are butforms of the Lord.The problem with such an interpretation is thatParamatma should then have the forms of 'mArgashira'mAsa, sAmaveda, silence (yes, you have to take itliterally), a chandas (!), the form of spring etc.Also, what about other mAsas, other vedas, sounds,other metres, other seasons -- they are NOT forms ofParamatma?A simpler explanation that is less overbearing onone's sense of logic is that, if any speciality isseen in a certain class of objects, that speciality isdue to Lord's vibhUti on/in that object or attribute. Btw, have you heard about 'sajAtIya' and 'vijAtIya'concepts? If yes, there is some chance of knowing howto interpret 'pANDAvAnAM dhananjayaH' or similar stuffvs 'AdityAnAmahaM viShNu' or 'vR^iShNInAM vAsudeva'.> Their inability to understand the reference to"Vidyavinaysampanne..." clearly indicates that theyhave > probably not studied this most divine of thescriptures in its entirety. Otherwise they would have > understand its connection with Shloka 3 and 20 inAdhyaya 10 where the Lord repeats the same dictum forthe > benefit of Arjuna.I am surprised that it did not strike you ascontradictory: If the Lord is situated 'equally' inall beings, why should He say, now, that He is so & soof a certain class.Regards,NomadevaDo you ?The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.http://search.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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