Difference between information and inner wisdom

[Guest guest]

Dear Shrinivasan,

A very apt saying of His Holiness Chandrashekhara Saraswati. This is precisely

what I was trying to convey.

Chandrashekhar.

-

Srinivasan khan

vedic astrology

Saturday, April 26, 2003 1:24 PM

[vedic astrology] Difference between information and inner wisdom

"You don't see the Lotus feet of the Lord. Why are you fighting over what his

face looks like?" -- His Highness Chandrashekhara Saraswati

 

 

Dear All,

 

Since the discussion is on God or diff Gods, pls allow me to quote a few things

here from some other source. Same discussion of which God is superior has gone

for ages between hindus and muslims and see who profits, we must all be blind

not to know where we are going ashtray. Going ashtray though me maybe:

 

A true Master is not the one with the most followers, but one who creates the most Masters.

A true leader is not the one with the most followers but one who creates the most leaders.

A true kind is not the one with the most subjects, but one who leads the most to royalty.

A true teacher is not the one with the most knowledge, but one who causes the

most others to have knowledge.

And a true God is not the One with the most servants, but One who serves the

most, thereby making Gods of all others.

For this is the both the goal and the glory of God: that his subjects shall be

no more, and that all shall know God not as the unattainable, but as the

unavoidable.

 

You cannot not be “saved”, there is no hell except not knowing this.

 

The moment someone says my way is the ONLY way, there will be others who would

say the opposite and set their life to prove that. All miseries in human life

from wars to personal problems are the result of this elitist mentally of men

and even religious intolerance that is bred into a child the most innocent of

ones right from early days.

 

Maybe the world would be a better place if we change internally our attitude and

belief system with just two lines:

 

· Mine is not the only way, but one of the ways to achieve the same

thing.

 

· What would Love Do? ( use this whenever you are stuck in any situation

of life or personal relations or anything)

 

Instead of telling Krishna is the one who is above Shiva, followers of Shiva are

lower caste etc, why not ask others and oneself to find out the truth

themselves, ask them to meditate on Shiva and Krishna and find out who is the

greatest, maybe a child will be the first to find the answer and the correct

one.

 

I would love to go more into this but will try and restrict myself.

 

Pls teach our children that any religious text which says one God is above the

other, is only clearly stating that the person who wrote or re-wrote that text

never understood God in the first place to write about God. Infact conduct

survey and lets find out that children know this instinctively, the reason why

they prefer to be without any religion and rather develop to know their inner

God in their own way.

 

A smaller example is how our history books today are being re-written and by whom J J

 

 

Regards,

 

Srivasan Khan

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...>

wrote:> -----------------> "You don't see the

Lotus feet of the Lord. Why are you fighting over what his face looks like?">

> -- His Highness Chandrashekhara Saraswati>

-----------------> > Om Hariharaabhyaam

Namah> Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,> > I have addressed these points in the

past, but they keep coming up every now and then. But I cannot keep quiet

because some very wrong notions are being popularized by some biased people.>

> Giving quotes from a Purana showing that God X is superior to God Y serves no

purpose. Quotes from puranas are a double edged sword! If a Vaishnava gives a

quote from Garuda Purana saying that Vishnu is supreme, a Shaiva can give a

quote from Linga Purana saying that Shiva is supreme.> > Linga purana says

that Vishnu, Brahma and the entire universe came from Shiva. It also contains

an interesting story. According to that story, an argument arose between Brahma

and Vishnu on who was superior. They were arguing. Then Shiva expressed in front

of them as a brilliant Jyotirlinga (column of light and fire) that extended in

two directions. Brahma and Vishnu wanted to find the ends of the Jyotirlinga.

They went in the upward and downward directions (that is why dasamsa rulerships

include Brahma and Achyuta/Vishnu in addition to the rulers of the 8

directions). They agreed that whoever found the end first would win. Brahma and

Vishnu went in their respective directions and searched for the end for days.

Neither found the end after many days and finally they both gave up, agreeing

that neither of them is supreme and it is *Shiva* who is the supreme one! Shiva

then appeared in front of them and taught them,"we three are part of the same

supreme Parabrahman that pervades this universe. We three have three specific

roles. We should not fight with each other on who is superior."> > Also, there

is a story in Mahabharata written by Vyasa (see Drona parva). Narayana engaged

in an extreme penance (tapas) for 60,000 years. Then Shiva was happy with the

penance and came before Narayana along with Parvati to give a great boon to

Narayana in the form of Nara. Later, Narayana and Nara took the forms of

Krishna and Arjuna. In that penance episode, Shiva was described as "the Lord

of all gods" (sarvadevairapeeswaram) and as "smaller than the smallest sub-atom

and greater than the greatest entity" (aNeeyasaamaNeeyaamsam brihadbhyascha

brihattaram). The detailed description there lauds Shiva as the greatest and

supreme deity of the universe.> > Of course, one can find many more examples

where one god or the other is said to be the supreme one. In Scriptures and

religious literature, it is customary to find glorification of each god

(Vishnu, Shiva and Shakti) saying that the rest of the gods came from that

particular god and they all pray to him/her and bow at his/her feet.> > All

these should make any intelligent person aware that pursuing this concept of

"superiority" to its logical end, as if we were taking about simple human

beings, is quite childish. After all, Skandopanishat says "yatha shivamayo

vishnur evam vishnumayah shivah" (thanks to Sarbani for the quote). It means

"just as Vishnu is filled with Shiva, so is Shiva filled with Vishnu".> >

Vishnu has been depicted as a worshipper of Shiva. His avataras such as Rama

and Krishna also worshipped Shiva. Shiva, on the other hand, has been depicted

as a great worshipper of Vishnu. The name "Shiva" appears in Vishnu's 1000

names. The names "Vishnu" and "Hari" appear in Shiva's 1000 names. All these

things and the contradictory scriptural references should make one think.> >

Overall, looking at all the scriptural references, we can conclude the

following:> > Vishnu is superior to Shiva. Shiva is superior to Vishnu. Vishnu

worshipped Shiva and was blessed by Shiva. Shiva worshipped Vishnu and was

blessed by Vishnu. Vishnu is a superset of Shiva. Shiva is a superset of

Vishnu.> > Does it make sense? Or, does it sound contradictory? If so, perhaps

you need to change your way of thinking. After all, every assertion made above

has scriptural support!!> > To enable you to come to terms with the apparent

contradiction, I'll go back to my favorite analogy. Even though it sounds

simplistic, it's very profound and is the perfect analogy here.> > In the

world of finite numbers, x > y, x = y and x < y cannot be true simultaneously.

Only one of them can be correct. But, in the world of infinite numbers, they

all can be true simultaneously! If x and y are two infinite numbers, then x can

be greater than y, equal to y and less than y, all at the same time!> > Human

beings are similar to finite numbers. The concept of god or divinity is akin to

the concept of infinity. Don't expect your simplistic finite thinking to capture

the realities of divinity perfectly. If you don't realize this and expect some

simplistic and rigid hierarchy among gods, you are only kidding yourselves. You

will then have to ignore some scriptures and stick to some scriptures (which

will make all your arguments meaningless). That is what Gauranga and others are

doing. They are ignoring some scriptures and heavily quoting other scriptures

and yet seem to think that their arguments are conclusive (they aren't, for the

reasons I have outlined).> > Now, a few miscellaneous comments on a few points

made recently:> > (1) Lord Ganesha is the one who should be worshipped first.

Most Hindu priests (whether Vaishnava or Shaiva) start Vedic rituals with

Ganesha's worship with the following mantra:> > om ganaanaam tvaa ganapatim

havaamahe kavim kaveenaamupamasravastamam> jyeshtharaajam brahmanaam

brahmanaspata aa nah srinvannootibhisseedasaadanam> > (2) Shiva represents

tamas, as he is completely devoid of passion. But it does not mean worshipping

Shiva is tamasik.> > The 3 gunas (primordial natures) were never intended to

be classified as good and bad gunas. If rajas and tamas had been "bad" gunas,

they would not have found place in the creation of God. Tamas has been

interpreted by most scholars simply as dullness. But that is only one aspect of

it. On the positive side, it stands for a completely stable state where there is

no passion whatsoever. The three gunas and the trinity of gods represent three

eseential (and good) natures. Looking down upon tamas and hence upon Shiva is

not right. There are a lot of misconceptions.> > (3) If you are faced with

tamasic problems in life, there is no better way than worshipping Shiva.

Recital of Maha Mrityunjaya mantra, Rudra Namakam and Rudra Chamakam do have

the sanction of great sages. ALL people can read them when they have to

overcome tamaic problems in life.> > Often people talk about only moksha (BTW,

Shiva can grant moksha too. He grants moksha as Maheswara). But don't forget

that dharma, artha and kaama are as important. If unfinished karma remains,

moksha cannot come. As far as dharma (duty) is concerned, it comes in 4 forms -

duty towards self, duty towards family, duty towards society and duty towards

universe (Drigdasa allows us to measure how much of each duty is followed at a

given point of time). Protection of body is the most basic duty. If you have

tamasik problems impeding you in your duties, you better pray to Shiva to

remove them.> > (4) People often equate "worship of Shiva" to "worship with

desires". That's not right. Shiva can remove tamas and give desires, but he can

be worshipped without desires too. He too can grant moksha.> > (5) The

bottomline: Whether one is a Vaishnava or a Shiava does not really matter. If

one completely surrenders to the Supreme Divinity of the universe (whether one

calls it as Krishna or SadaShiva or AdiShakti or Parabrahman or by whatever

name) and overcomes the six enemies within, one will attain moksha. Whether one

is a devotee of Vishnu or Shiva, that is the final goal anyway.> > * *

*> > The only reason I spoke out is that some so-called-Vaishnavas who

to a fanatic school of thought that ignores the basic Vaishnava

traits of compassion and humility are unfairly creating a feeling of guilt

among sincere Shiva devotees on this list with their constant barrage of biased

scriptural quotes that belittle Shiva worship one way or the other.> > Let me

end this discussion with a nice quote from Vedas. One should note that Puranas

are meant for teaching advanced concepts in a simple and understandable way to

laymen, while Vedas put the ultimate truths in a crisp language without any

compromises or creative liberties.> > ekam sadvipraa bahudhaa vadanti

[RigVeda, 1.164.46]> > "The One Supreme Lord, who is infinitely beyond the

infinite scope of superlatives, is called by different names by the learned

men."> > May Jupiter's light shine on us,> Narasimha

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. Archives:

vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr.Chandrashekhar,

 

That saying was initially quoted by PVR, so he deserves the applause

not me, also, I understand the point that you are trying to make.

I am sorry if my earlier email didn't go well with many.

 

SK

 

 

 

vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar"

<boxdel> wrote:

> Dear Shrinivasan,

> A very apt saying of His Holiness Chandrashekhara Saraswati. This

is precisely what I was trying to convey.

> Chandrashekhar.

> -

> Srinivasan khan

> vedic astrology

> Saturday, April 26, 2003 1:24 PM

> [vedic astrology] Difference between information and

inner wisdom

>

>

> "You don't see the Lotus feet of the Lord. Why are you fighting

over what his face looks like?"

>

> -- His Highness Chandrashekhara Saraswati

>

>

> Dear All,

>

>

>

> Since the discussion is on God or diff Gods, pls allow me to

quote a few things here from some other source. Same discussion of

which God is superior has gone for ages between hindus and muslims

and see who profits, we must all be blind not to know where we are

going ashtray. Going ashtray though me maybe:

>

>

>

> A true Master is not the one with the most followers, but one who

creates the most Masters.

>

> A true leader is not the one with the most followers but one who

creates the most leaders.

>

> A true kind is not the one with the most subjects, but one who

leads the most to royalty.

>

> A true teacher is not the one with the most knowledge, but one

who causes the most others to have knowledge.

>

> And a true God is not the One with the most servants, but One who

serves the most, thereby making Gods of all others.

>

> For this is the both the goal and the glory of God: that his

subjects shall be no more, and that all shall know God not as the

unattainable, but as the unavoidable.

>

>

>

> You cannot not be "saved", there is no hell except not knowing

this.

>

>

>

> The moment someone says my way is the ONLY way, there will be

others who would say the opposite and set their life to prove that.

All miseries in human life from wars to personal problems are the

result of this elitist mentally of men and even religious intolerance

that is bred into a child the most innocent of ones right from early

days.

>

>

>

> Maybe the world would be a better place if we change internally

our attitude and belief system with just two lines:

>

>

>

> · Mine is not the only way, but one of the ways to achieve

the same thing.

>

>

>

> · What would Love Do? ( use this whenever you are stuck in

any situation of life or personal relations or anything)

>

>

>

> Instead of telling Krishna is the one who is above Shiva,

followers of Shiva are lower caste etc, why not ask others and

oneself to find out the truth themselves, ask them to meditate on

Shiva and Krishna and find out who is the greatest, maybe a child

will be the first to find the answer and the correct one.

>

>

>

> I would love to go more into this but will try and restrict

myself.

>

>

>

> Pls teach our children that any religious text which says one God

is above the other, is only clearly stating that the person who wrote

or re-wrote that text never understood God in the first place to

write about God. Infact conduct survey and lets find out that

children know this instinctively, the reason why they prefer to be

without any religion and rather develop to know their inner God in

their own way.

>

>

>

> A smaller example is how our history books today are being re-

written and by whom J J

>

>

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Srivasan Khan

>

>

>

>

>

> vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao"

<pvr@c...> wrote:

> > -----------------

> > "You don't see the Lotus feet of the Lord. Why are you fighting

over what his face looks like?"

> >

> > -- His Highness Chandrashekhara Saraswati

> > -----------------

> >

> > Om Hariharaabhyaam Namah

> > Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,

> >

> > I have addressed these points in the past, but they keep coming

up every now and then. But I cannot keep quiet because some very

wrong notions are being popularized by some biased people.

> >

> > Giving quotes from a Purana showing that God X is superior to

God Y serves no purpose. Quotes from puranas are a double edged

sword! If a Vaishnava gives a quote from Garuda Purana saying that

Vishnu is supreme, a Shaiva can give a quote from Linga Purana saying

that Shiva is supreme.

> >

> > Linga purana says that Vishnu, Brahma and the entire universe

came from Shiva. It also contains an interesting story. According to

that story, an argument arose between Brahma and Vishnu on who was

superior. They were arguing. Then Shiva expressed in front of them as

a brilliant Jyotirlinga (column of light and fire) that extended in

two directions. Brahma and Vishnu wanted to find the ends of the

Jyotirlinga. They went in the upward and downward directions (that is

why dasamsa rulerships include Brahma and Achyuta/Vishnu in addition

to the rulers of the 8 directions). They agreed that whoever found

the end first would win. Brahma and Vishnu went in their respective

directions and searched for the end for days. Neither found the end

after many days and finally they both gave up, agreeing that neither

of them is supreme and it is *Shiva* who is the supreme one! Shiva

then appeared in front of them and taught them,"we three are part of

the same supreme Parabrahman that pervades this universe. We three

have three specific roles. We should not fight with each other on who

is superior."

> >

> > Also, there is a story in Mahabharata written by Vyasa (see

Drona parva). Narayana engaged in an extreme penance (tapas) for

60,000 years. Then Shiva was happy with the penance and came before

Narayana along with Parvati to give a great boon to Narayana in the

form of Nara. Later, Narayana and Nara took the forms of Krishna and

Arjuna. In that penance episode, Shiva was described as "the Lord of

all gods" (sarvadevairapeeswaram) and as "smaller than the smallest

sub-atom and greater than the greatest entity" (aNeeyasaamaNeeyaamsam

brihadbhyascha brihattaram). The detailed description there lauds

Shiva as the greatest and supreme deity of the universe.

> >

> > Of course, one can find many more examples where one god or the

other is said to be the supreme one. In Scriptures and religious

literature, it is customary to find glorification of each god

(Vishnu, Shiva and Shakti) saying that the rest of the gods came from

that particular god and they all pray to him/her and bow at his/her

feet.

> >

> > All these should make any intelligent person aware that

pursuing this concept of "superiority" to its logical end, as if we

were taking about simple human beings, is quite childish. After all,

Skandopanishat says "yatha shivamayo vishnur evam vishnumayah shivah"

(thanks to Sarbani for the quote). It means "just as Vishnu is filled

with Shiva, so is Shiva filled with Vishnu".

> >

> > Vishnu has been depicted as a worshipper of Shiva. His avataras

such as Rama and Krishna also worshipped Shiva. Shiva, on the other

hand, has been depicted as a great worshipper of Vishnu. The

name "Shiva" appears in Vishnu's 1000 names. The names "Vishnu"

and "Hari" appear in Shiva's 1000 names. All these things and the

contradictory scriptural references should make one think.

> >

> > Overall, looking at all the scriptural references, we can

conclude the following:

> >

> > Vishnu is superior to Shiva. Shiva is superior to Vishnu.

Vishnu worshipped Shiva and was blessed by Shiva. Shiva worshipped

Vishnu and was blessed by Vishnu. Vishnu is a superset of Shiva.

Shiva is a superset of Vishnu.

> >

> > Does it make sense? Or, does it sound contradictory? If so,

perhaps you need to change your way of thinking. After all, every

assertion made above has scriptural support!!

> >

> > To enable you to come to terms with the apparent contradiction,

I'll go back to my favorite analogy. Even though it sounds

simplistic, it's very profound and is the perfect analogy here.

> >

> > In the world of finite numbers, x > y, x = y and x < y cannot

be true simultaneously. Only one of them can be correct. But, in the

world of infinite numbers, they all can be true simultaneously! If x

and y are two infinite numbers, then x can be greater than y, equal

to y and less than y, all at the same time!

> >

> > Human beings are similar to finite numbers. The concept of god

or divinity is akin to the concept of infinity. Don't expect your

simplistic finite thinking to capture the realities of divinity

perfectly. If you don't realize this and expect some simplistic and

rigid hierarchy among gods, you are only kidding yourselves. You will

then have to ignore some scriptures and stick to some scriptures

(which will make all your arguments meaningless). That is what

Gauranga and others are doing. They are ignoring some scriptures and

heavily quoting other scriptures and yet seem to think that their

arguments are conclusive (they aren't, for the reasons I have

outlined).

> >

> > Now, a few miscellaneous comments on a few points made recently:

> >

> > (1) Lord Ganesha is the one who should be worshipped first.

Most Hindu priests (whether Vaishnava or Shaiva) start Vedic rituals

with Ganesha's worship with the following mantra:

> >

> > om ganaanaam tvaa ganapatim havaamahe kavim

kaveenaamupamasravastamam

> > jyeshtharaajam brahmanaam brahmanaspata aa nah

srinvannootibhisseedasaadanam

> >

> > (2) Shiva represents tamas, as he is completely devoid of

passion. But it does not mean worshipping Shiva is tamasik.

> >

> > The 3 gunas (primordial natures) were never intended to be

classified as good and bad gunas. If rajas and tamas had been "bad"

gunas, they would not have found place in the creation of God. Tamas

has been interpreted by most scholars simply as dullness. But that is

only one aspect of it. On the positive side, it stands for a

completely stable state where there is no passion whatsoever. The

three gunas and the trinity of gods represent three eseential (and

good) natures. Looking down upon tamas and hence upon Shiva is not

right. There are a lot of misconceptions.

> >

> > (3) If you are faced with tamasic problems in life, there is no

better way than worshipping Shiva. Recital of Maha Mrityunjaya

mantra, Rudra Namakam and Rudra Chamakam do have the sanction of

great sages. ALL people can read them when they have to overcome

tamaic problems in life.

> >

> > Often people talk about only moksha (BTW, Shiva can grant

moksha too. He grants moksha as Maheswara). But don't forget that

dharma, artha and kaama are as important. If unfinished karma

remains, moksha cannot come. As far as dharma (duty) is concerned, it

comes in 4 forms - duty towards self, duty towards family, duty

towards society and duty towards universe (Drigdasa allows us to

measure how much of each duty is followed at a given point of time).

Protection of body is the most basic duty. If you have tamasik

problems impeding you in your duties, you better pray to Shiva to

remove them.

> >

> > (4) People often equate "worship of Shiva" to "worship with

desires". That's not right. Shiva can remove tamas and give desires,

but he can be worshipped without desires too. He too can grant moksha.

> >

> > (5) The bottomline: Whether one is a Vaishnava or a Shiava does

not really matter. If one completely surrenders to the Supreme

Divinity of the universe (whether one calls it as Krishna or

SadaShiva or AdiShakti or Parabrahman or by whatever name) and

overcomes the six enemies within, one will attain moksha. Whether one

is a devotee of Vishnu or Shiva, that is the final goal anyway.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > The only reason I spoke out is that some so-called-Vaishnavas

who to a fanatic school of thought that ignores the basic

Vaishnava traits of compassion and humility are unfairly creating a

feeling of guilt among sincere Shiva devotees on this list with their

constant barrage of biased scriptural quotes that belittle Shiva

worship one way or the other.

> >

> > Let me end this discussion with a nice quote from Vedas. One

should note that Puranas are meant for teaching advanced concepts in

a simple and understandable way to laymen, while Vedas put the

ultimate truths in a crisp language without any compromises or

creative liberties.

> >

> > ekam sadvipraa bahudhaa vadanti [RigVeda, 1.164.46]

> >

> > "The One Supreme Lord, who is infinitely beyond the infinite

scope of superlatives, is called by different names by the learned

men."

> >

> > May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> > Narasimha

>

>

> --

----------

>

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