Birth and death

[Guest guest]

Dear Sanjay Rath,

 

Hare Rama Krsna.

 

Thank you for your comments. As far as I understand, you confirmed my

statements. Still, our difference of view is whether the atma gets a new

Mana with re-birth or not. I'd like to say that unlike our gross body,

which is actually just a combination of atoms and molecules, our Mana is

always with us, and is constantly changing according to our karma, life

conceptions etc. Yet it is of a more subtle energy, and thus more eligible

for change than the gross body. Yes, the atma will get another gross body,

but the Mana will only change accordingly, just like the atoms of our

gross body also change constantly. Will the Mana of a child be the same as

the Mana of that same person when grown up? Yes, it will, but it has

changed. The same thing happens when one quits the body and takes a new

birth. But anyway, let's see the data when we get them.

 

>Rath: Till now the ones I have heard say that the Vimsottari dasa

>continues exactly where it left. Like a watch that had stopped starts

>ticking again. I cannot agree with this theory of two-dimensional time

>and it standing still!! The three clocks still progress forward, no

>matter how small.

 

I asked for the opinion of our acaryas like Parasara, Varahamihira etc.

In your previous letter you had said you prefer to follow their viewpoint,

but now you reply this is what they stated, and you disagree with it. Have

I misunderstood something?

 

I asked one friend of mine, and he mentioned it might be a book which KN

Rao wrote in honour of his Guru, something with a title as Guru Bhagavan?

Maybe this refreshes your memory, or someone else on the list might have a

book like that? I might get a lifetime example myself, but some research

has to be done still for the past life data. I'll let you know.

 

Your sishya,

Dhira Krsna dasa

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

----

Dear Dhira,

I would like to jump into this discussion. Hope you don't mind.

I have given some comments below in blue.

 

Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana:

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org

-

Dhira Krsna BCS

vedic astrology

Monday, March 31, 2003 8:06 PM

[vedic astrology] Birth and death

Dear Sanjay Rath,Hare Rama Krsna.Thank you for your comments. As far as I

understand, you confirmed mystatements. Still, our difference of view is

whether the atma gets a newMana with re-birth or not. I'd like to say that

unlike our gross body,which is actually just a combination of atoms and

molecules, our Mana isalways with us, and is constantly changing according to

our karma, lifeconceptions etc. Yet it is of a more subtle energy, and thus

more eligiblefor change than the gross body. Yes, the atma will get another

gross body,but the Mana will only change accordingly, just like the atoms of

ourgross body also change constantly. Will the Mana of a child be the same

asthe Mana of that same person when grown up? Yes, it will, but it haschanged.

The same thing happens when one quits the body and takes a newbirth. But

anyway, let's see the data when we get them.

Visti: At first let me commend you on your talkative nature. You simply must

have the last word *laughs*.

 

Now the problem with the theory that the mind following ones atma becomes quite

clear in the present context;

Your present consciousness is your mind. With our understanding of

consciousness can we surely say that the mind simply gets changed? Or do we get

a new Mana? Now i was silly enough to lend out my copy of Katha Upanishad to an

eager student, but here is a qoute from the same that i'm using in an article

(you will need the itrans99 font - see the links in my signature):

 

AaTman< riwn< zrIr< tu, buiÏ< tu iviÏ mn> à¢hmev c.3.

ätmänaà rathinaà çaréraà tu| buddhià tu viddhi manaù pragrahameva ca||3||

“Consider the embodied soul as the master of the chariot, the body as the

chariot, the intellect as the charioteer, and the mind as the reins.” – Swami

Lokeswarananda

Visti: This sloka makes it clear, that the Body, Mind and Intellect are but

the make up necessary to drive the soul/self through life. This means that the

mind will also at some point leave the native. This is inevitable unless you

understand the above sloka differently.

 

Let me add:

n jayte ièTyte va ivpiíÚay< k…tiíÚ bÉUv kiít!,

Ajae inTy> zañtae=y< puranae n hNyte hNymane zrIre.18.

na jäyate mrityate vä vipaçcinnäyaà kutaçcinna babhüva kaçcit|

ajo nityaù çäçvato'yaà puräno na hanyate hanyamäne çarére||18||

“The self is not born; it does not die, either. It is not born of something, nor

is something else born of it. It is without birth, eternal, unchanging, always

present. The body perishes but the self (soul) never perishes.“– translation by

Swami Lokeswarananda

>Rath: Till now the ones I have heard say that the Vimsottari dasa>continues

exactly where it left. Like a watch that had stopped starts>ticking again. I

cannot agree with this theory of two-dimensional time>and it standing still!!

The three clocks still progress forward, no>matter how small.I asked for the

opinion of our acaryas like Parasara, Varahamihira etc.In your previous letter

you had said you prefer to follow their viewpoint,but now you reply this is

what they stated, and you disagree with it. HaveI misunderstood something?

Visti: So far i have not seen Sanjay express the opinion of the rishi's. If i

were to translate the above for you; he is commenting on the lack of logic

behind the vimshottari-dasa continuing for a 2nd lifetime.

 

To comment on such an approach let me say that our karma surely changes from

lifetime to lifetime so the vimshottari dasa must change, and cannot be the

same run around the zodiac. Even in the Narayana Dasa we draw a new chart after

144 years and then calculate new dasa's.. thou i do not know enough about this

approach to tell you whether this is the new birthchart.

I asked one friend of mine, and he mentioned it might be a book which KNRao

wrote in honour of his Guru, something with a title as Guru Bhagavan?Maybe this

refreshes your memory, or someone else on the list might have abook like that? I

might get a lifetime example myself, but some researchhas to be done still for

the past life data. I'll let you know.

Visti: He wrote a book called 'Karma and Rebirth in Hindu Astrology' which is

said to have this information in it. Btw, his Guru was his mother.

Your sishya,Dhira Krsna dasa

Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

 

[Guest guest]

JAYA JAGANNATHA!

 

Dear Sanjayji and others!

 

Pranaam.

 

I have added some comments in blue.

-

Sanjay Rath

vedic astrology

Saturday, March 29, 2003 9:02 PM

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth and death

 

~Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya~Dear Dhira Krsna,

Other points are given below:

>1. In the Gita Bhagavan says that all beings reincarnate based on 'His>will'

and the time, place, parents and circumstances are all decided by>Him. So,

would the mana be competent to decide or take the atma to its>next

incarnation?Well, in the Gita Krsna says in chapter 8 text 6: "Whatever state

of beingone remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kunti, that state he

willattain without fail."Who's the one who is remembering here? Of course, the

Atma will rememberhis identity when he is completely cleansed of material

contamination,yet, when he is identifying with this material body and mind,

will heremember this state of being? Is it not the Mana, who then carries

theAtma to its next destination? Of course, this happens by Krsna's will,

butKrsna will fulfill the desire of the Atma on its travel through thematerial

world, of course according to its karma, or merit.Rath: Quitting the body is

one thing. Attaining another body is another thing. The Mana does not leave the

atma until the grace of Lord Maheswara so makes it happen. It is not the Mana

that carries the Atma but vice-versa. It is the Atma that carries the Mana due

to its dwelling in the senses and desires. Swami Abhedananda in his experiments

in London has proved that immediately after death a person continues to do such

things that he desired to do most. This proves that the mana is attached to the

Atma. Further, if the mana had all the power to take the Atma where-ever it

pleased then no one will go to Narka-loka (actually, Tala's, Narkas are

separate). Mana is the wilful doer through which the atma is enjoying this

creation. Why will anyone like to go to the Tala like Patala loka?? Thus, the

person is forced to go there due to the laws of Karma. I guess even Draupadi

and Arjuna went there...thats a different issue.

This seems to be a bit controversial here. So either the Manas (mind) continues

to exist after death or is changed together with the gross body. Fisrt we

should understand that the mind is one of the coverings of the soul (atma),

which is material. Let me quote Bg. 8.24 and purport to make this understand:

 

agnir jyotir ahaů çuklaůńaë-mäsä uttaräyaëamtatra prayätä

gacchantibrahma brahma-vido janäůTRANSLATIONThose who know the Supreme

Brahman attain that Supreme by passing away from the world during the influence

of the fiery god, in the light, at an auspicious moment of the day, during the

fortnight of the waxing moon, or during the six months when the sun travels in

the north.PURPORTWhen fire, light, day and the fortnight of the moon are

mentioned, it is to be understood that over all of them there are various

presiding deities who make arrangements for the passage of the soul. At the

time of death, the mind carries one on the path to a new life. If one leaves

the body at the time designated above, either accidentally or by arrangement,

it is possible for him to attain the impersonal brahmajyoti. Mystics who are

advanced in yoga practice can arrange the time and place to leave the body.

Others have no control—if by accident they leave at an auspicious moment, then

they will not return to the cycle of birth and death, but otherwise there is

every possibility that they will have to return. However, for the pure devotee

in Kĺńëa consciousness, there is no fear of returning, whether he

leaves the body at an auspicious or inauspicious moment, by accident or

arrangement.

 

Another quote from Srimad Bhagavatam (5.11.6.):

 

duůkhaŕ sukhaŕ vyatiriktaŕ ca tévraŕkälopapannaŕ

phalam ävyanaktiäliěgya mäyä-racitäntarätmäsva-dehinaŕ

saŕsĺti-cakra-küöaůTRANSLATIONThe materialistic mind covering

the living entity’s soul carries it to different species of life. This is

called continued material existence. Due to the mind, the living entity suffers

or enjoys material distress and happiness. Being thus illusioned, the mind

further creates pious and impious activities and their karma, and thus the soul

becomes conditioned.PURPORTMental activities under the influence of material

nature cause happiness and distress within the material world. Being covered by

illusion, the living entity eternally continues conditioned life under different

designations. Such living entities are known as nitya-baddha, eternally’

conditioned. On the whole, the mind is the cause of conditioned life; therefore

the entire yogic process is meant to control the mind and the senses. If the

mind is controlled, the senses are automatically controlled, and therefore the

soul is saved from the reactions of pious and impious activity. If the mind is

engaged at the lotus feet of Lord Kĺńëa (sa vai manaů

kĺńëa-padäravindayoů [sB 9.4.18]), the senses are automatically

engaged in the Lord’s service. When the mind and senses are engaged in

devotional service, the living entity naturally becomes Kĺńëa

conscious. As soon as one always thinks of Kĺńëa, he becomes a

perfect yogé, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gétä (yoginäm api sarveńäŕ

mad-gatenäntarätmanä [bg. 6.47]). This antarätmä, the mind, is conditioned by

material nature. As stated here, mäyä-racitäntarätmä sva-dehinaŕ

saŕsĺti-cakra-küöaů: the mind, being most powerful, covers the

living entity and puts him in the waves of material existence.

Here in the sloka the term antar-atma is used, and Srila Prabhupada translates it as mind.

 

>If the mana was attached to the atma for all times even after death, then>every

person will remember the past life and existance.Not necessarily. Can one not

forget his past lifes, just like you forgotnow which book of KN Rao mentions

this about continuing dasha? Check outthe Gita chapter 4, text 5 where Krsna

says that He can remember all pastbirths, but not Arjuna, that means because

Arjuna, being an Atma, forgot.When the child is in the womb, he forgets his

past life, and especiallyduring birth, which is such a horrible time. There are

also souls who, dueto their sinful activities, have to be taken to the

narakaloka's or hells,do they not suffer because the Mana is attached to the

Atma, or do youthink the Atma is free from the Mana at that time?According to

Srila Prabhupada's philosophy, the Mana stays attached to theAtma at all times

during our journey through the material world, and onlyat the time of moksha

will the Atma be liberated from it. Otherwise, ifnot the Mana, who will give

remembrance of past material existance?Rath: Srila Prabhupada is right but your

understanding seems to be different. The Mana is attached to the Atma during the

journey through the material world. Now the question is which worlds are

material and which are spiritual. The hint to this is in the two prefixes used

for the gayatri mantra-

One reads' Om Bhur Bhuva Svah', the other reads ' Om Bhu, Bhuva Sva, Mahar,

Janah, Tapah, Satyam....Is the Satya Loka a material abode??

 

Yes, it is. Satyaloka is called Brahma loka in other terms, and Krishna says (Bg. 8.16):

 

ä-brahma-bhuvanäl lokäůpunar ävartino ’rjunamäm upetya tu kaunteyapunar

janma na vidyateTRANSLATIONFrom the highest planet in the material world down

to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take

place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunté, never takes birth

again.PURPORTAll kinds of yogés—karma, jďäna, haöha, etc.—eventually have

to attain devotional perfection in bhakti-yoga, or Kĺńëa

consciousness, before they can go to Kĺńëa’s transcendental abode and

never return. Those who attain the highest material planets, the planets of the

demigods, are again subjected to repeated birth and death. As persons on earth

are elevated to higher planets, people on higher planets such as Brahmaloka,

Candraloka and Indraloka fall down to earth. The practice of sacrifice called

paďcägni-vidyä, recommended in the Chändogya Upanińad, enables one to

achieve Brahmaloka, but if, on Brahmaloka, one does not cultivate

Kĺńëa consciousness, then he must return to earth. Those who progress

in Kĺńëa consciousness on the higher planets are gradually elevated to

higher and higher planets and at the time of universal devastation are

transferred to the eternal spiritual kingdom. Çrédhara Svämé, in his commentary

on Bhagavad-gétä, quotes this verse:brahmaëä saha te sarvesampräpte

pratisaďcareparasyänte kĺtätmänaůpraviçanti paraŕ

padam“When there is devastation of this material universe, Brahmä and his

devotees, who are constantly engaged in Kĺńëa consciousness, are all

transferred to the spiritual universe and to specific spiritual planets

according to their desires.”

 

So even the residents of Brahmaloka are subject to repeated birth and death,

thertefore it's still a material abode.

 

Forgeting the past is also a great gift of Bhagavan. Else if you remembered all

the sins you did in the past, life itself would be impossible to live. If you

remembered the relationships you had with the other atmas from another

existence you would be too busy trying to correct them. this is also a

blessings in disguise from Jaganatha. In fact Sri Prabhupada has written

"....We may also note herein that a living entity forgets everything due to his

change of body, but the Lord remembers because He does not change His

sac-cid-ananda body." Thus, the loss of memory occurs when there is a change of

body as Prabhupada has given the reason for this. Now I fully agree with this.

Please read on.

 

Next natural question is when does this change of body begin? Immediately after

death - no this cannot be as the person continues doing what he wanted to do.

The good person has to first suffer the Tala's and Narka's - here also the mana

has not left else he will not be able to suffer. This is vividly described in

the Bhavishya Purana in the dialogue between Sri Krishna and Yudhisthira.

The good person then goes to the various heavens and enjoys the fruits of some

good karma- He cannot enjoy the fruits if he does not have a mana attached. Now

what happens after this is over? Does he simply come down to earth?

Check also Gita chapter 15 texts 8-9: Here Krsna clearly states that theatma

carries his different conceptions of life from one body to the other,as the air

carries aroma's. In text 9 He states that the atma is situatedin its subtle body

of mind, intelligence and ego, and again takes on abody with senses according to

its conceptions of life.Rath: Chapter 15 Text 8 uses the word

'utkraamati-ishvarah'. What have you understood from this? Prabhupada's

translation is the gist of the matter and you are expected to read further and

understand what he was trying to explain in just one sentence. Isvarah is

Pasupati Siva, the lord of the body and Utkrama means to step up, rise, ascend

and refers to the atma that ascends after death when it gives up the body. In

fact Yudhisthira's feet did not touch the ground. Death is also called PUNYA

because the atma, having suffered its sins in this Bhu-Loka, gives up the body

and its 'feet do not touch the ground'.

 

I suggest that you make a serious word-by-word reading of the Gita if you really

want to understand it, and even after all these years, honestly, I don't know

the Gita. Life is best spent in trying to "understand Ram and know Krishna". In

hindi it is said as 'Ram ko samjho Krishna to jaano, neend se jaago O! mastano".

 

Prabhupada has very nicely and simply translated the text 9 as 'The living

entity, thus taking another gross body, obtains a certain type of ear, eye,

tongue, nose and sense of touch, which are grouped about the mind.' In fact

the text clearly reads 'adhisthaaya manas ca-ayam' indicating that the five

indriyas mentioned afore are situated in the manas. If these gyanendruyas are

going to be different and are the constituents of the mana, then is the mana

not new? Does the dog have the same mind as that of a human being?

 

In another purport, Srila Prabhupada cites Bg. 18.61.:

 

éçvaraů sarva-bhütänäŕhĺd-deçe ’rjuna tińöhatibhrämayan

sarva-bhütäniyanträrüňhäni mäyayä“The Supreme Lord is situated in

everyone’s heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living

entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.” Yantra

means a machine, such as an automobile. The driver of the machine of the body

is the individual soul, who is also its director or proprietor, but the supreme

proprietor is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One’s body is created through

the agency of mäyä (karmaëä daiva-netreëa [sB 3.31.1]), and according to one’s

activities in this life, another vehicle is created, again under the

supervision of daivé mäyä (daivé hy eńä guëa-mayé mama mäyä duratyayä [bg.

7.14]). At the appropriate time, one’s next body is immediately chosen, and both

the individual soul and the Supersoul transfer to that particular bodily

machine. This is the process of transmigration. During transmigration from one

body to the next, the soul is taken away by the order carriers of Yamaräja and

put into a particular type of hellish life (naraka) in order to become

accustomed to the condition in which he will live in his next body.

 

This answers the question why the soul has to go to Narakaloka, which is in fact beyond Pataala.

 

Where has Prabhupada said that the same mana continues into the next birth?

Prabhupada has given a simple, lucid and clear translation for us to read and

better our lives. It is not a commentary ('Teeka') but a translation for making

it simply understandable.

 

In fact, Srila Prabhupada has given the perfect Teeka for Bhagavad-Gita,called

the Bhaktivedanta Purports. My Guru Maharaja, Srila Sivarama Swami has written

a whole scientific analysis proving that Srila Prabhupada's commentary is most

perfectly reflecting Krishna's intentions in speaking the Gita. Please refer to

www.lalonline.com for the book. For example, where you have given the meaning

Pasupati Siva to the word Iswara, Srila Prabhupada clearly states in the

purport to sloka 15.9:

 

PURPORTHere the living entity is described as éçvara, the controller of his own

body. If he likes, he can change his body to a higher grade, and if he likes he

can move to a lower class. Minute independence is there. The change his body

undergoes depends upon him. At the time of death, the consciousness he has

created will carry him on to the next type of body. If he has made his

consciousness like that of a cat or dog, he is sure to change to a cat’s or

dog’s body. And if he has fixed his consciousness on godly qualities, he will

change into the form of a demigod. And if he is in Kĺńëa

consciousness, he will be transferred to Kĺńëaloka in the spiritual

world and will associate with Kĺńëa. It is a false claim that after

the annihilation of this body everything is finished. The individual soul is

transmigrating from one body to another, and his present body and present

activities are the background of his next body. One gets a different body

according to karma, and he has to quit this body in due course. It is stated

here that the subtle body, which carries the conception of the next body,

develops another body in the next life. This process of transmigrating from one

body to another and struggling while in the body is called karńati, or

struggle for existence.Bg 15.9

It seems you read another Gita or are you just quoting from your memory,having

no books at all there in Jagannath Puri? Then I would advise you,to approach an

Iskcon center there and go check the Bhagavad-Gita As It Isin their

library.Rath: 'The Gita as it is' is readily available. There are also

excellent commentaries on the Gita like the Gyaneswari. Does this have an

english translation now? Anyone in the list please confirm. Maharashtra group

please check on this. I don't know whether you read all that. I agree that it

is necessary to do a wide reading of all works containing Krishna's teachings.

>However, I do not agree to the methods employed being traditionally>inclined to

the teachings of the great masters Parasara, Jaimini, Varaha,>Kalyan verma and

recent Harihara etc.What is their opinion then on this relation of dasha for

the present liferegarding past life karma etc.?Rath: Till now the ones I have

heard say that the Vimsottari dasa continues exactly where it left. Like a

watch that had stopped starts ticking again. I cannot agree with this theory of

two-dimensional time and it standing still!! The three clocks still progress

forward, no matter how small.

 

Best regards & have a nice day.

Thank you for this nice discussion on Bhagavan but let us leave the thread here

until someone sends the data.

Sanjay Rath

 

Yours,

 

Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer gauranga (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net Jyotish Remedies:

WWW.BRIHASPATI.NET Phone:+36-309-140-839Archives:

vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......