Birth and death

[Guest guest]

Dear Sanjay Rath,

 

Vyam Vyasadevaya namah.

 

>1. In the Gita Bhagavan says that all beings reincarnate based on 'His

>will' and the time, place, parents and circumstances are all decided by

>Him. So, would the mana be competent to decide or take the atma to its

>next incarnation?

 

Well, in the Gita Krsna says in chapter 8 text 6: "Whatever state of being

one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kunti, that state he will

attain without fail."

Who's the one who is remembering here? Of course, the Atma will remember

his identity when he is completely cleansed of material contamination,

yet, when he is identifying with this material body and mind, will he

remember this state of being? Is it not the Mana, who then carries the

Atma to its next destination? Of course, this happens by Krsna's will, but

Krsna will fulfill the desire of the Atma on its travel through the

material world, of course according to its karma, or merit.

 

>If the mana was attached to the atma for all times even after death, then

>every person will remember the past life and existance.

 

Not necessarily. Can one not forget his past lifes, just like you forgot

now which book of KN Rao mentions this about continuing dasha? Check out

the Gita chapter 4, text 5 where Krsna says that He can remember all past

births, but not Arjuna, that means because Arjuna, being an Atma, forgot.

When the child is in the womb, he forgets his past life, and especially

during birth, which is such a horrible time. There are also souls who, due

to their sinful activities, have to be taken to the narakaloka's or hells,

do they not suffer because the Mana is attached to the Atma, or do you

think the Atma is free from the Mana at that time?

According to Srila Prabhupada's philosophy, the Mana stays attached to the

Atma at all times during our journey through the material world, and only

at the time of moksha will the Atma be liberated from it. Otherwise, if

not the Mana, who will give remembrance of past material existance?

 

Check also Gita chapter 15 texts 8-9: Here Krsna clearly states that the

atma carries his different conceptions of life from one body to the other,

as the air carries aroma's. In text 9 He states that the atma is situated

in its subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego, and again takes on a

body with senses according to its conceptions of life.

 

It seems you read another Gita or are you just quoting from your memory,

having no books at all there in Jagannath Puri? Then I would advise you,

to approach an Iskcon center there and go check the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is

in their library.

 

>4. K N Rao has published various data in a book. I am sure someone in

> this list can give us the reference as here in Orissa I do not have any

>books..Jagannatha is teaching me to become reliant on my memory (smile).

 

I hope you or someone else on the list will remember. I really would like

to have a look at that one.

 

>However, I do not agree to the methods employed being traditionally

>inclined to the teachings of the great masters Parasara, Jaimini, Varaha,

>Kalyan verma and recent Harihara etc.

 

What is their opinion then on this relation of dasha for the present life

regarding past life karma etc.?

 

Thank you very much.

 

Your sishya,

Dhira Krsna dasa

[Guest guest]

Namaste Listmembers,

 

Dear Sanjay and Dhira,

I have enjoyed this discussion.

Coincidentally, I have lately been thinking of a poem written by Lord Byron:

 

So, we'll go no more a roving

So late into the night,

Though the heart be still as loving,

And the moon be still as bright.

 

For the sword outwears its sheath,

And the soul wears out the breast,

And the heart must pause to breathe,

And love itself have rest.

 

I believe Byron is referring to the eternal soul. But when I first read the

second line of the second verse, I wondered if the soul can kill the body

through its desire to reunite with the cause. Take samhadi for instance.

Is it a soul rememberance if an individual remembers past lives or

connections with other souls, or is this manas/imagination?.

I would like to hear more as I don't fully understand this teaching, or maybe

your explanation of it!.

Kind Regards,

Ann.

 

 

 

-

Sanjay Rath

vedic astrology

Sunday, March 30, 2003 5:02 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth and death

 

~Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya~Dear Dhira Krsna,

Other points are given below:

>1. In the Gita Bhagavan says that all beings reincarnate based on 'His>will'

and the time, place, parents and circumstances are all decided by>Him. So,

would the mana be competent to decide or take the atma to its>next

incarnation?Well, in the Gita Krsna says in chapter 8 text 6: "Whatever state

of beingone remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kunti, that state he

willattain without fail."Who's the one who is remembering here? Of course, the

Atma will rememberhis identity when he is completely cleansed of material

contamination,yet, when he is identifying with this material body and mind,

will heremember this state of being? Is it not the Mana, who then carries

theAtma to its next destination? Of course, this happens by Krsna's will,

butKrsna will fulfill the desire of the Atma on its travel through thematerial

world, of course according to its karma, or merit.Rath: Quitting the body is

one thing. Attaining another body is another thing. The Mana does not leave the

atma until the grace of Lord Maheswara so makes it happen. It is not the Mana

that carries the Atma but vice-versa. It is the Atma that carries the Mana due

to its dwelling in the senses and desires. Swami Abhedananda in his experiments

in London has proved that immediately after death a person continues to do such

things that he desired to do most. This proves that the mana is attached to the

Atma. Further, if the mana had all the power to take the Atma where-ever it

pleased then no one will go to Narka-loka (actually, Tala's, Narkas are

separate). Mana is the wilful doer through which the atma is enjoying this

creation. Why will anyone like to go to the Tala like Patala loka?? Thus, the

person is forced to go there due to the laws of Karma. I guess even Draupadi

and Arjuna went there...thats a different issue.

>If the mana was attached to the atma for all times even after death, then>every

person will remember the past life and existance.Not necessarily. Can one not

forget his past lifes, just like you forgotnow which book of KN Rao mentions

this about continuing dasha? Check outthe Gita chapter 4, text 5 where Krsna

says that He can remember all pastbirths, but not Arjuna, that means because

Arjuna, being an Atma, forgot.When the child is in the womb, he forgets his

past life, and especiallyduring birth, which is such a horrible time. There are

also souls who, dueto their sinful activities, have to be taken to the

narakaloka's or hells,do they not suffer because the Mana is attached to the

Atma, or do youthink the Atma is free from the Mana at that time?According to

Srila Prabhupada's philosophy, the Mana stays attached to theAtma at all times

during our journey through the material world, and onlyat the time of moksha

will the Atma be liberated from it. Otherwise, ifnot the Mana, who will give

remembrance of past material existance?Rath: Srila Prabhupada is right but your

understanding seems to be different. The Mana is attached to the Atma during the

journey through the material world. Now the question is which worlds are

material and which are spiritual. The hint to this is in the two prefixes used

for the gayatri mantra-

One reads' Om Bhur Bhuva Svah', the other reads ' Om Bhu, Bhuva Sva, Mahar,

Janah, Tapah, Satyam....Is the Satya Loka a material abode??

 

Forgeting the past is also a great gift of Bhagavan. Else if you remembered all

the sins you did in the past, life itself would be impossible to live. If you

remembered the relationships you had with the other atmas from another

existence you would be too busy trying to correct them. this is also a

blessings in disguise from Jaganatha. In fact Sri Prabhupada has written

"....We may also note herein that a living entity forgets everything due to his

change of body, but the Lord remembers because He does not change His

sac-cid-ananda body." Thus, the loss of memory occurs when there is a change of

body as Prabhupada has given the reason for this. Now I fully agree with this.

Please read on.

 

Next natural question is when does this change of body begin? Immediately after

death - no this cannot be as the person continues doing what he wanted to do.

The good person has to first suffer the Tala's and Narka's - here also the mana

has not left else he will not be able to suffer. This is vividly described in

the Bhavishya Purana in the dialogue between Sri Krishna and Yudhisthira.

The good person then goes to the various heavens and enjoys the fruits of some

good karma- He cannot enjoy the fruits if he does not have a mana attached. Now

what happens after this is over? Does he simply come down to earth?

Check also Gita chapter 15 texts 8-9: Here Krsna clearly states that theatma

carries his different conceptions of life from one body to the other,as the air

carries aroma's. In text 9 He states that the atma is situatedin its subtle body

of mind, intelligence and ego, and again takes on abody with senses according to

its conceptions of life.Rath: Chapter 15 Text 8 uses the word

'utkraamati-ishvarah'. What have you understood from this? Prabhupada's

translation is the gist of the matter and you are expected to read further and

understand what he was trying to explain in just one sentence. Isvarah is

Pasupati Siva, the lord of the body and Utkrama means to step up, rise, ascend

and refers to the atma that ascends after death when it gives up the body. In

fact Yudhisthira's feet did not touch the ground. Death is also called PUNYA

because the atma, having suffered its sins in this Bhu-Loka, gives up the body

and its 'feet do not touch the ground'.

 

I suggest that you make a serious word-by-word reading of the Gita if you really

want to understand it, and even after all these years, honestly, I don't know

the Gita. Life is best spent in trying to "understand Ram and know Krishna". In

hindi it is said as 'Ram ko samjho Krishna to jaano, neend se jaago O! mastano".

 

Prabhupada has very nicely and simply translated the text 9 as 'The living

entity, thus taking another gross body, obtains a certain type of ear, eye,

tongue, nose and sense of touch, which are grouped about the mind.' In fact

the text clearly reads 'adhisthaaya manas ca-ayam' indicating that the five

indriyas mentioned afore are situated in the manas. If these gyanendruyas are

going to be different and are the constituents of the mana, then is the mana

not new? Does the dog have the same mind as that of a human being?

 

Where has Prabhupada said that the same mana continues into the next birth?

Prabhupada has given a simple, lucid and clear translation for us to read and

better our lives. It is not a commentary ('Teeka') but a translation for making

it simply understandable.

 

It seems you read another Gita or are you just quoting from your memory,having

no books at all there in Jagannath Puri? Then I would advise you,to approach an

Iskcon center there and go check the Bhagavad-Gita As It Isin their

library.Rath: 'The Gita as it is' is readily available. There are also

excellent commentaries on the Gita like the Gyaneswari. Does this have an

english translation now? Anyone in the list please confirm. Maharashtra group

please check on this. I don't know whether you read all that. I agree that it

is necessary to do a wide reading of all works containing Krishna's teachings.

>However, I do not agree to the methods employed being traditionally>inclined to

the teachings of the great masters Parasara, Jaimini, Varaha,>Kalyan verma and

recent Harihara etc.What is their opinion then on this relation of dasha for

the present liferegarding past life karma etc.?Rath: Till now the ones I have

heard say that the Vimsottari dasa continues exactly where it left. Like a

watch that had stopped starts ticking again. I cannot agree with this theory of

two-dimensional time and it standing still!! The three clocks still progress

forward, no matter how small.

 

Best regards & have a nice day.

Thank you for this nice discussion on Bhagavan but let us leave the thread here

until someone sends the data.

Sanjay Rath

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