Demigod woship and Jyotish

[Guest guest]

I missed Sriram Nayak's email previously, as I have been getting messages from

too many lists of late. Out of respect to Pt. PVR Narasimha Rao's reasonable

wishes to keep the list focused on Jyotisha, I won't offer a point-for-point

response to his message.

However, I would simply encourage those scratching their head at the issue of

tantra and its relevance to sadhana to investigate more carefully and not

accept at face value the commonplace denunciations of the tantric traditions by

the mainstream without doing this necessary careful digging. First, a careful

reading of Jyotishi Robert Svoboda's accounts of his Aghori guru (yes,

Vimalananda is Svoboda's beloved teacher) in the three main _Aghora_ titles as

well as his Jyotish writings will reveal a brilliant exegesis of the

inextricability of tantra and bhakti surrender. Power is *not* the main point

at all, though the allure of power (and spiritual authority!) is a distraction

for *anyone* on a spiritual path. What the important modern Buddhist tantrika

Chögyam Trungpa Rinpcohe refers to as "spiritual materialism"* -- the clinging

to discursive spiritual concepts as a means of fortifying the ego -- is the

greatest spiritual danger, period! Devotees who strive to be "pure" must

especially be vigilant for what T.S. Eliot poignantly warns us of in his

masterpiece _Murder in the Cathedral_: the temptation to be a saint.

In general, the remarkable spiritual, political and aesthetic manifestation we

know as tantra -- be it in its Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh or other forms --

has arisen historically to counter puritanical and extremist trends in these

respective traditions. Those who do their homework will find this particularly

powerful in Bengali history, and even particularly in connection with the

beloved God few in orthodox ivory towers would ever associate with tantra --

dare I say his name? The tantrikas didn't always get it right -- and certainly

some claimed to be tantrikas in order to indulge as libertines in the "goodies"

of the panca-ma-kaaras as these rogues misconstrued them -- but many

practitioners of tantric sadhana have historically offered powerful and

necessary correctives to the Indian equivalent of Bible-thumping convention.

That is all I will say here now. I will not respond on the list to any further

rebuttals, as I respectfully must suggest that such rebuttals seem more often

to promote narrow theological agendas than the passionate adoration of the

Absolute which must cut through all such human agendas and biases. On this

note, the chaya graha Ketu is particularly relevant to the tantric orientations

to deconstruction and cutting through ego and concepts.

Sarva mangalam,

J.I. Abbot

Baby tantrika

*Cf. Trungpa's classic work, _Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism_

sriram nayak

Subj: Re: [vedic astrology] More on demigod worship - to Admin

3/15/2003 3:22:01 PM Eastern Standard Time

sriram.nayak (AT) oracle (DOT) com

Reply-to: vedic astrology

vedic astrology

Received from Internet:

Dear Mr Abbot/ Mr Gaurang, Please forgive my intruding into your conversation .

I found it intriguing and thought proviking, and couldnt as much control myself

from knocking off a few thoughts of mine, though very ordinary (.... pl forgive

me for this ) :-)

jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com wrote:

Dear Gauranga Das, It is remarkable to me how quickly you leapt into the fray

without (apparently) really reading my email. Friend, when I compared Caitanya

to a tantrika, I was paying him a *compliment*! Goodness. I don't know whether

you're just not permitted in your Gaud.iiya lineage to read about bhakti

traditions "outside of the fold." In any event, if the word tantrika is a dirty

one for you, I am concerned that there may be no way for us to communicate until

we clarify this term and its centrality in Indian religious history.

Comparing a pure Devotee of the Lord to a Tantrik and saying that it is a

compliment, smacks of something amiss.To put it in mundane terms, it is like

calling a a Founder and Chairman of a company , a Manager in the company,

though both are dignified in their own way, are still a way apart in their

standings. Tantra , derives its strength from Atharvana Veda, and for attaining

Moksha that is the last Veda to be followed. Tantra always fuels egoism , what

with the power one derives through its practice. No wonder you find the

Tantriks , even the highest ones, very short tempered. If you mention Dr Robert

Svoboda here, then I will be compelled to refer to his wonderful work " Aghora"

in which he writes a biography of Vimalanada , who was a Tantrik of the highest

quality, yet throwing tantrums of temper ( Krodha ) By the bye, Lord Krishna

warns people not to fall for the Flowery Language of the Veda ( the Atharvana)

:-)

A Siddha is a master of Tantra and the value chain has a Siddha becoming a Natha

then a Muni and then attaining of Moksha ( that is if they are on the right

track ......will come later down here ). But a pure devotee of the Lord Vishnu

is instantly on the Moksha path and traverses through the short cut of Pure

unalloyed devotion in him, conquering Kama, Krodha, Madha, Moha, Lobha and

Matsara ( Arishadvargas..)

No shastra tells of a person who possessed one of the Arishadvargas to have ever

meditated upon Lord Vishnu. They invariably did a penance to appease either the

Shakti, Shiva or Brahma. That is because you can still reach these Demi Gods

possessing one of the above six, but you CANT reach THE GOD with these.

Tantriks work for power, no matter their denial, the power equation still

exists, and one needs only to look at their practice like that of Aghoris (

Panchamakaara ) . A pure devotee works the opposite, surrenders all powers and

seeks only Him and nothing else( read about Prahlada, Dhruva ) . "Gyana, Bhakti

and Vairagya" are the only desires ( if you may call it so) of the Pure Devotee.

 

That you could read that particular message and conclude that I "lac[k] any

respect towards anything divine" will be something I will marvel at for a long

time. If you were to meet, for example, profoundly gifted and devout Shaivite

jyotishis such as Hart deFouw and Dr. Robert E. Svoboda -- who themselves

practice tantric Jyotisha and other tantric traditions all in the savor of

their bhakti -- would you have similar words for them? Perhaps this is just a

simple misunderstanding around the word "tantra." I will not pretend that my

email did not offer a critique of your perspective on the Mother, made clear,

for instance, in your earlier post to Sanjay. The mother will not be related to

Krishna or any of his Avataaras simply because there is *no* contradiction

between them. Zero. And yes, the Mother (the one I know anyway) gives supreme

enlightenment and salvation. Perfect moksha. You can certainly call the

millions of devotees ! she has blessed imperfect or partial renunciates, or

whatever, but you don't then have the weight of the full bhakti tradition

behind you. By the full tradition, mind you, I am not speaking only of your

lineage, which is, however great, only one of many.

Perfect Moksha??? One can speak of Moksha when one understands it. The Veda says

" Eko Narayanastvasit Pralaye Ramaya Saha" . Only Lord Narayana is present along

with Rama ( Lakshmi ..the consort of Lord Vishnu ) during Pralaya, the end of

all lives through massive destruction and devastation. Then who else other than

Lord Narayana can grant Moksha.When the existence of the Demi Gods themselves is

in question after a point, it would be massive misunderstanding that others can

give Moksha. One needs also to know that the Lord and his consort are the pure

Chetana and all others are jeevas. What you are calling as Shiva, Shakti and

Brahma are padavis ( positions they hold ) which they relinquish when they get

Moksha.

No contradiction between them??? I am concerned when I say that the people who

stand in support of this theories are Rakshasas like Hiranyakashipu, Ravana,

Hiranyaksha and other demons who said there is no difference between Godhead

and us and that all are the same or I am the God ( Aham Brahmasmi.. ). Every

one knows the fate of these entities.

I am only the creator of microun\verses. Creativity or Opennness to possibility,

which we might also call Shuunyataa or "Intrinsic Resourcefulness," is the

Creator writ large. This creator is not separate from human art, genius or

sexuality. It is our reflex to flinch at and pull back from from seeing

creativity in all things that brings about maayaa and perplexity. The profound

dualism of bhakti and the practice of non-dual contemplation differ only in

form or mode -- like ice melting into water or water freezing again into ice.

Or it is a different flavor. He or she who insists on the supremacy of one over

the other is like the one who insists on eating exclusively carrots!

There cant be several kings ruling one kingdom.They have to be the Kings

Lieutenants , to rule along side him, totally follow him. Similarly there is

one Creator and all others are created. Satwik shastras, the Great

Vishnusahasranama as given by the wise Bhisma, proclaim Lord Vishnu as the

Creator and the all supreme.The other shastras viz the Rajasic, Tamasic

shastras claim Shakti and Shiva as the supreme. But the creator of these

shastras, Sage Vyasa clearly states that these remaining shastras are only for

the consumption of Asuras " Asura Mohanartham ". Even Shiva says in Rudra Geeta

that he Proclaims his supremacy in Pashupatha shastras ( tamasic Purana ) only

to follow the directive of Lord Hari and that Lord Hari is the supreme deity

and the only deity to be worshipped. Shiva also says in Ramaraksha " Na anyam

Jaane , naive Jaane Na Jaane". I know of no other Lord other than Lord Hari and

I wouldnt want to know also...

Kali Santaranopanishad says " Harir Naama Harir Naama, Harir Naama eva Kevalam,

Kalau Naasti Kalau Naasti Gatiranyata". There is no way out for a being in

Kaliyuga other than chanting the names of Lord Hari. Eating this carrot will

rid one of all sins and having tasted this Carrot, one would remain famished

but never covet for any other thing for consumption :-)). The proof of the

pudding is in the eating. Please try and you will never ever look back on your

earlier beliefs...:-)

I am no Creator of all, but I am someone who will not hesitate to extract a

little tumor to "save" someone I care about. You are a very good man whose

limited views on the purview of the Godhead sometimes gives me and others a bit

of grief. Those limited views are not different from malignant growths, because

they may cause someone whose natural ishata devata is in fact one of the

"demigods" you hold to be inferior *to feel unworthy and less exalted* than the

one who is "getting it right." And that can turn a person away from the sacred

and plunge him or her into tremendous depression. I know this because it

happened to me a decade ago when my spiritual longings wouldn't fit into the

box of received lineage and I had no place to go. So we must be very, very

careful in these waters, Gauranga.

One needs to understand things Logically. If everything were to be one and there

is no contradition between two entities, then it is akin to Spiritual Suicide.

Imagine me losing my identitiy when I merge with the One...and not being there

at all. Ones theory needs to be supported by Logic, science, Mathematics etc.

Ah it reminds me when I said mathematics..Even mathematics proves the " No

contradiction " theory wrong. Take numbers 1, 2, 3 and so on . One will find

Number 1 in all as in 1, 1+1,1+2 etc but 1 is never equal to 2 or 2 equal to 3

etc. Divide the number 1, which denotes The supreme, by any number and it will

never become " zero" and if you multiply it by infinity also it is still

mathematically right 1+ infinity ( Ano raneeya, Mahato Maheeya )

Only the real Doctor can say who has the "Tumor " and "who" needs to be saved.

It is my sense that the Jyotir Vidyaa Herself) will teach us more and more of

these types of joyful subtleties when we turn to her for strength and

inspiration.

By the way, in my critique of your and some others' theological standpoint, I do

not intend criticism of you as a Jyotishi or your several remarkable shishyas. I

have learned a great amount from your writings, online and in print. And Swee I

respect beyond what I can verbalize here. There is rnanubandhana between and

among all of us, clearly. But we should celebrate this karmic debt as an

opportunity.

Yes we need to celebrate and celebrate by Chanting the glorious names of the

Lord because he is the reservoir of All pleasures known and unknown to us mere

mortals :-)

All my best (I mean it) to you and everyone,

JIA

PS For anyone on the list interested in the awe-provoking bigger picture of

Bengali mysticism and tantra, please see Dr. Shashibhusan Das Gupta's

masterwork _Obscure Religious Cults_ (possibly out of print, but previously

published by Firma K. L. Mukhopadhyay of Calcutta in 1969.)

In a message dated 3/15/2003 3:28:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, gauranga (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net writes:

 

I dont intend to hurt anybody by my words here. I am sure some of these thoughts

coming from the list members are owing to the fact that they havent ever met

Knowledgable persons, who can clear their doubts in the right earnest. Think of

the top Saints in India (.. aparoksha Gyanis) and you will know what they

advocated is in the similar lines as is put above.

I would have liked to be more logical and precise, but with the forum and the

space constraint and being sure that not many will go through my post :-)

stopping it here.

Been wanting to barge in, for some of the earlier posts also...I promise to be a

good boy and not to intrude again.......

My the Lord grant Gyana, Bhakti and Vairagya to one and all...

sriram nayak

Who are you to dare criticise Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Are you the creator

of the universe or what? We are not interested to hear your blasphemy of the

Supreme Lord. Dear Narasimha, I suggest that you silence him or ask him to

leave the list, because he lacks any respect towards anyhting divine.

Yours,

Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer