Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Let me just say here that I think it is possible to honor the sincerity of a jyotish guru vis-à-vis the practice of jyotisha and still borrow Lord Shiva or Guru Padmasambhava's trident to prod this practitioner in the rear end toward the eventual end of promoting a more subtle and discerning heart: vis-à-vis the more outrageous aspects of sacred mystery -- which itself frankly more to do with the feminine than with many other things. And which (Who) cannot be discerned profoundly through any linear, discursive exegesis of Parashara or a concordance of the Sriimad Bhaagavatam -- even if said recitation or Reckoning is written in Sanskrit, High Elvish or the dialect of Seraphim... Fondly, J.I. Abbot iIn a message dated 3/14/2003 8:01:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net writes: Om Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum Dear Sundeep, >Dear Chandrashekhar, PVR, Gauranga, > >But in Chapter 7, Verse 23, Lord Krishna also says: >"Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are >limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the >planet of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme >planet". >Can you please explain the above statement also? I am not really >trying to find fault - just searching for the truth - I have no >personal experience of it, unfortunately. The verse you mentioned does not really belittle the worship of "other deities". BTW, the word "anya devataah" literally means "other deities" or "other gods", but some scholars translate it as "demigods". This translation is highly questionable, as the word demigod has a different connotation. Verses 7-20 to 7-24 of BhagavadGeetha essentially mean the following: "People with various desires propitiate deities following various procedures that are set by nature and by themselves. If a person is devoted to a particular deity, it is because *I* have created that devotion within him. *I* then make him pray to that deity and *I* make him fulfill his good desires. [i do it all.] In the end, men of small intelligence get their good desires because of me [though they may not realize it]. My devotees praying to deities [without specific desires] will get them and will get me too (maam = me, api = *too*). I am inexpressible, supreme and present in everything and everywhere [i.e. in all deities too], but ignorant people do not understand it and consider me to be a specific person." Krishna is not belittling the worship of Shiva etc ("demigods") above, as commonly interpreted by hard-core Krishna devotees of Kali Yuga. He is instead telling us that he is not a specific person and is present in everything and everywhere (in Vishnu, in Shiva, in Gauri, in Skanda etc). If he is belittling something, it is praying to deities with desires. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity to fulfill a specific desire, the end result is the same - you will get the desire if it is a good desire. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity without any desire, the end result is the same - you reach Him. Even if somebody worships Allah (or some other god) without any desires, that person will ultimately reach Krishna only, for Krishna (or Sadashiva or Viraat Swaroopa or ParaaShakti) is the ultimate divine energy that manifests as everything in the seen and unseen universe. Krishna is not a specific person as the above verse says. He is the divine energy present in all deities (Shaiva call the same supreme divine energy as Sadashiva and Shakteyas call ParaaShakti). In fact, in verse 9-204, Krishna confirms this explicitly. He says, "Even if one worships another deity with sincerity, he is in fact worshipping me only, albeit not realizing it." This clearly establishes that a sincere devotee of Shiva praying to Shiva without any desires is in fact praying to Krishna unknowingly and will reach Shiva/Krishna in the end! The same thing will hold true to a great Muslim saint who overcomes all desires and prays to Allah sincerely (after all, only a fool would insist that only Hindus get liberated. Great souls are born in all religions). The saint is liberated from rebirth and reaches Allah/Krishna. The real essence of Krishna's timeless teaching is lost in this age of strife, ignorance and intolerance (i.e. Kali Yuga). Don't think that the translations you read are perfect. Hinduism has a lot of sects. During the dark age of Hinduism, when Vaishnavas and Shaivas killed each other, a lot of prejudices entered the religious discourse. Luckily, an average Hindu's religious ethos is formed of the fabric of open-mindedness and tolerance, even though aberrations can easily be found in religious literature. The common translations of the above verse (such as what you gave) are but an example. If you read all the available Hindu literature, you will see various instances where various deities are mentioned as the supreme deities of the universe (e.g. Shiva, Shakti, Krishna etc) and all other deities are mentioned to have come from them and to be subordinates. Like I said here earlier, divinity as a spiritual concept is akin to infinity as a mathematical concept. When people used to mathematics of finite numbers try to interpolate it to infinite numbers, they make fools of themselves. In the mathematics of infinite numbers, a can be equal to b, greater than b and less than b, all at the same time! Also, a plus a can still be a and a minus a can also be a (and not zero). Comparing various forms of infinity mathematically is a meaningless exercise. Trying to rank gods is also a similar exercise. Irrespective of the scriptural quotes given by a person engaging in such an exercise, such an exercise only demonstrates one's ignorance (sorry, but there is no other appropriate word). >Also, for the benefit of the less knowledgeable ones like myself, >could please tell us which deites are considered demigods among the >Ishta Devatas? Some people consider any deity who is not an incarnation of Vishnu to be a demigod and not fit for worship. This includes Shiva, Gauri, Ganesha, Skanda, Durga etc, all mentioned by Parasara in the section on karakamsa. The bottomline is: If a person has some good desires, feel free to suggest the worship of any deity to fulfill the desire based on the chart. If a person wants to be liberated, suggest the worship of a deity based on the 12th from karakamsa as suggested by Sage Parasara, Sage Jaimini and other great worshippers of Shiva and Vishnu in the tradition of Jyotish. >Thank you, >Sundeep May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha PS: I don't understand how this discussion on "demigod worship" turned into a discussion on tropical vs sidereal systems! I will not take part in the latter discussion. PPS: Sri Achyuta Dasa was an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and he is the Parama Guru of our Jyotish parampara. When attacking my guru Pt. Sanjay Rath recently, a fellow astrologer from a Vaishnava parampara belittled Sri Achyuta because the great man was a Shakti worshipper. Later that attack spilled into this list also, when the mail was forwarded here by somebody. Ever since that comment on Sri Achyuta Dasa was made, I have been thinking of commenting on the matter of worshipping deities other thjan Vishnu's incarnations. Finally, I got the opportunity! Please note that great Vaishnavas like Vyasa, Parasara, Chaitanya and Achyuta (let alone Rama and Krishna themselves) were not prejudiced and worshipped Shiva and Shakti freely. Sadly, some traditions have become corrupt and intolerant in this matter today... Sponsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Om Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum Dear Sundeep, > Dear Chandrashekhar, PVR, Gauranga,> > But in Chapter 7, Verse 23, Lord Krishna also says:> "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are > limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the > planet of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme > planet".> Can you please explain the above statement also? I am not really > trying to find fault - just searching for the truth - I have no > personal experience of it, unfortunately. The verse you mentioned does not really belittle the worship of "other deities". BTW, the word "anya devataah" literally means "other deities" or "other gods", but some scholars translate it as "demigods". This translation is highly questionable, as the word demigod has a different connotation. Verses 7-20 to 7-24 of BhagavadGeetha essentially mean the following: "People with various desires propitiate deities following various procedures that are set by nature and by themselves. If a person is devoted to a particular deity, it is because *I* have created that devotion within him. *I* then make him pray to that deity and *I* make him fulfill his good desires. [i do it all.] In the end, men of small intelligence get their good desires because of me [though they may not realize it]. My devotees praying to deities [without specific desires] will get them and will get me too (maam = me, api = *too*). I am inexpressible, supreme and present in everything and everywhere [i.e. in all deities too], but ignorant people do not understand it and consider me to be a specific person." Krishna is not belittling the worship of Shiva etc ("demigods") above, as commonly interpreted by hard-core Krishna devotees of Kali Yuga. He is instead telling us that he is not a specific person and is present in everything and everywhere (in Vishnu, in Shiva, in Gauri, in Skanda etc). If he is belittling something, it is praying to deities with desires. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity to fulfill a specific desire, the end result is the same - you will get the desire if it is a good desire. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity without any desire, the end result is the same - you reach Him. Even if somebody worships Allah (or some other god) without any desires, that person will ultimately reach Krishna only, for Krishna (or Sadashiva or Viraat Swaroopa or ParaaShakti) is the ultimate divine energy that manifests as everything in the seen and unseen universe. Krishna is not a specific person as the above verse says. He is the divine energy present in all deities (Shaiva call the same supreme divine energy as Sadashiva and Shakteyas call ParaaShakti). In fact, in verse 9-204, Krishna confirms this explicitly. He says, "Even if one worships another deity with sincerity, he is in fact worshipping me only, albeit not realizing it." This clearly establishes that a sincere devotee of Shiva praying to Shiva without any desires is in fact praying to Krishna unknowingly and will reach Shiva/Krishna in the end! The same thing will hold true to a great Muslim saint who overcomes all desires and prays to Allah sincerely (after all, only a fool would insist that only Hindus get liberated. Great souls are born in all religions). The saint is liberated from rebirth and reaches Allah/Krishna. The real essence of Krishna's timeless teaching is lost in this age of strife, ignorance and intolerance (i.e. Kali Yuga). Don't think that the translations you read are perfect. Hinduism has a lot of sects. During the dark age of Hinduism, when Vaishnavas and Shaivas killed each other, a lot of prejudices entered the religious discourse. Luckily, an average Hindu's religious ethos is formed of the fabric of open-mindedness and tolerance, even though aberrations can easily be found in religious literature. The common translations of the above verse (such as what you gave) are but an example. If you read all the available Hindu literature, you will see various instances where various deities are mentioned as the supreme deities of the universe (e.g. Shiva, Shakti, Krishna etc) and all other deities are mentioned to have come from them and to be subordinates. Like I said here earlier, divinity as a spiritual concept is akin to infinity as a mathematical concept. When people used to mathematics of finite numbers try to interpolate it to infinite numbers, they make fools of themselves. In the mathematics of infinite numbers, a can be equal to b, greater than b and less than b, all at the same time! Also, a plus a can still be a and a minus a can also be a (and not zero). Comparing various forms of infinity mathematically is a meaningless exercise. Trying to rank gods is also a similar exercise. Irrespective of the scriptural quotes given by a person engaging in such an exercise, such an exercise only demonstrates one's ignorance (sorry, but there is no other appropriate word). > Also, for the benefit of the less knowledgeable ones like myself, > could please tell us which deites are considered demigods among the > Ishta Devatas? Some people consider any deity who is not an incarnation of Vishnu to be a demigod and not fit for worship. This includes Shiva, Gauri, Ganesha, Skanda, Durga etc, all mentioned by Parasara in the section on karakamsa. The bottomline is: If a person has some good desires, feel free to suggest the worship of any deity to fulfill the desire based on the chart. If a person wants to be liberated, suggest the worship of a deity based on the 12th from karakamsa as suggested by Sage Parasara, Sage Jaimini and other great worshippers of Shiva and Vishnu in the tradition of Jyotish. > Thank you,> Sundeep May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha PS: I don't understand how this discussion on "demigod worship" turned into a discussion on tropical vs sidereal systems! I will not take part in the latter discussion. PPS: Sri Achyuta Dasa was an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and he is the Parama Guru of our Jyotish parampara. When attacking my guru Pt. Sanjay Rath recently, a fellow astrologer from a Vaishnava parampara belittled Sri Achyuta because the great man was a Shakti worshipper. Later that attack spilled into this list also, when the mail was forwarded here by somebody. Ever since that comment on Sri Achyuta Dasa was made, I have been thinking of commenting on the matter of worshipping deities other thjan Vishnu's incarnations. Finally, I got the opportunity! Please note that great Vaishnavas like Vyasa, Parasara, Chaitanya and Achyuta (let alone Rama and Krishna themselves) were not prejudiced and worshipped Shiva and Shakti freely. Sadly, some traditions have become corrupt and intolerant in this matter today... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Dear Mr. Rao, Thanks for your healthy and much needed corrective to some of the extremist, generally angry, and frankly subtly misogynistic views we sometimes see coming from even very accomplished jyotishis on this list. In my (surely heretical because Buddhistic!) view, subordinating Durga to Krishna essentially means not understanding the mothering side of Krishna! Some would also assert that men are intrinsically smarter than women and other such adharmic pap that is about the equivalent of saying we should stone adulterers "because the book of Leviticus... well, it do say so"! Chaitanya was himself pretty damn close to a Sahajiya tantrika. Prostate cancer is most prevalent in Roman Catholic priests, who don't always understand how to move with the _rasa_ of sacred experience in the body. One hopes alternatively that the Sanatana Dharma will not be further utilized to shut down the sacredness of the temple of the human body. Ultimately the Jyotir Vidya, who is our true Mother, who is not higher or lower than Durga or Krishna but who unites all lovers of Possibility in her outrageous universal embrace, shattering all attempts to relegate her many names to "mere demigod" status -- will have some tricks to play on Jyotishis who practice schismatic deeds (not honoring the sthayibhavas and the rasas of experience, her matrix of aesthetics). Her trickiness, the trickiness of mother Tara, is identical to the tricksterish enlightening moves of baby Krishna. Those who pedantically try to refute this fundamental joy (which is ananda itself) neglect their own Mother and mothers (all sentient beings, each of whom has been our mother) and in fact insult the mothering love of Krishna Himself, who resides in the empathy-drenched smile and tears of every human mother, father or feeling person. Thank you so much again. Sarva mangalam, J.I. Abbot "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote: >Om Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum >Dear Sundeep, > >> Dear Chandrashekhar, PVR, Gauranga, >> >> But in Chapter 7, Verse 23, Lord Krishna also says: >> "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are >> limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the >> planet of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme >> planet". >> Can you please explain the above statement also? I am not really >> trying to find fault - just searching for the truth - I have no >> personal experience of it, unfortunately. > >The verse you mentioned does not really belittle the worship of "other deities". BTW, the word "anya devataah" literally means "other deities" or "other gods", but some scholars translate it as "demigods". This translation is highly questionable, as the word demigod has a different connotation. > >Verses 7-20 to 7-24 of BhagavadGeetha essentially mean the following: "People with various desires propitiate deities following various procedures that are set by nature and by themselves. If a person is devoted to a particular deity, it is because *I* have created that devotion within him. *I* then make him pray to that deity and *I* make him fulfill his good desires. [i do it all.] In the end, men of small intelligence get their good desires because of me [though they may not realize it]. My devotees praying to deities [without specific desires] will get them and will get me too (maam = me, api = *too*). I am inexpressible, supreme and present in everything and everywhere [i.e. in all deities too], but ignorant people do not understand it and consider me to be a specific person." > >Krishna is not belittling the worship of Shiva etc ("demigods") above, as commonly interpreted by hard-core Krishna devotees of Kali Yuga. He is instead telling us that he is not a specific person and is present in everything and everywhere (in Vishnu, in Shiva, in Gauri, in Skanda etc). If he is belittling something, it is praying to deities with desires. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity to fulfill a specific desire, the end result is the same - you will get the desire if it is a good desire. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity without any desire, the end result is the same - you reach Him. Even if somebody worships Allah (or some other god) without any desires, that person will ultimately reach Krishna only, for Krishna (or Sadashiva or Viraat Swaroopa or ParaaShakti) is the ultimate divine energy that manifests as everything in the seen and unseen universe. Krishna is not a specific person as the above verse says. He is the divine energy present in all deities (Shaiva call the same supreme divine energy as Sadashiva and Shakteyas call ParaaShakti). > >In fact, in verse 9-204, Krishna confirms this explicitly. He says, "Even if one worships another deity with sincerity, he is in fact worshipping me only, albeit not realizing it." This clearly establishes that a sincere devotee of Shiva praying to Shiva without any desires is in fact praying to Krishna unknowingly and will reach Shiva/Krishna in the end! The same thing will hold true to a great Muslim saint who overcomes all desires and prays to Allah sincerely (after all, only a fool would insist that only Hindus get liberated. Great souls are born in all religions). The saint is liberated from rebirth and reaches Allah/Krishna. The real essence of Krishna's timeless teaching is lost in this age of strife, ignorance and intolerance (i.e. Kali Yuga). > >Don't think that the translations you read are perfect. Hinduism has a lot of sects. During the dark age of Hinduism, when Vaishnavas and Shaivas killed each other, a lot of prejudices entered the religious discourse. Luckily, an average Hindu's religious ethos is formed of the fabric of open-mindedness and tolerance, even though aberrations can easily be found in religious literature. The common translations of the above verse (such as what you gave) are but an example. If you read all the available Hindu literature, you will see various instances where various deities are mentioned as the supreme deities of the universe (e.g. Shiva, Shakti, Krishna etc) and all other deities are mentioned to have come from them and to be subordinates. Like I said here earlier, divinity as a spiritual concept is akin to infinity as a mathematical concept. When people used to mathematics of finite numbers try to interpolate it to infinite numbers, they make fools of themselves. In the mathematics of infinite numbers, a can be equal to b, greater than b and less than b, all at the same time! Also, a plus a can still be a and a minus a can also be a (and not zero). Comparing various forms of infinity mathematically is a meaningless exercise. Trying to rank gods is also a similar exercise. Irrespective of the scriptural quotes given by a person engaging in such an exercise, such an exercise only demonstrates one's ignorance (sorry, but there is no other appropriate word). > >> Also, for the benefit of the less knowledgeable ones like myself, >> could please tell us which deites are considered demigods among the >> Ishta Devatas? > >Some people consider any deity who is not an incarnation of Vishnu to be a demigod and not fit for worship. This includes Shiva, Gauri, Ganesha, Skanda, Durga etc, all mentioned by Parasara in the section on karakamsa. > >The bottomline is: If a person has some good desires, feel free to suggest the worship of any deity to fulfill the desire based on the chart. If a person wants to be liberated, suggest the worship of a deity based on the 12th from karakamsa as suggested by Sage Parasara, Sage Jaimini and other great worshippers of Shiva and Vishnu in the tradition of Jyotish. > >> Thank you, >> Sundeep > >May Jupiter's light shine on us, >Narasimha > >PS: I don't understand how this discussion on "demigod worship" turned into a discussion on tropical vs sidereal systems! I will not take part in the latter discussion. > >PPS: Sri Achyuta Dasa was an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and he is the Parama Guru of our Jyotish parampara. When attacking my guru Pt. Sanjay Rath recently, a fellow astrologer from a Vaishnava parampara belittled Sri Achyuta because the great man was a Shakti worshipper. Later that attack spilled into this list also, when the mail was forwarded here by somebody. Ever since that comment on Sri Achyuta Dasa was made, I have been thinking of commenting on the matter of worshipping deities other thjan Vishnu's incarnations. Finally, I got the opportunity! Please note that great Vaishnavas like Vyasa, Parasara, Chaitanya and Achyuta (let alone Rama and Krishna themselves) were not prejudiced and worshipped Shiva and Shakti freely. Sadly, some traditions have become corrupt and intolerant in this matter today... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Dear PVR I apoligize for not keeping to the topic at hand. I am finding out my naivate' in matters of Hindu scripture and thought. I have a huge deficit in these matters as one can see by my inappropiate comments. I thought you were discussing those people who think it is silly to ascribe powers or reactions to, planets (graha's). I was way off base. Thats it for me! I'm banning myself from further comment. vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...> wrote: > Om Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum > Dear Sundeep, > > > Dear Chandrashekhar, PVR, Gauranga, > > > > But in Chapter 7, Verse 23, Lord Krishna also says: > > "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are > > limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the > > planet of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme > > planet". > > Can you please explain the above statement also? I am not really > > trying to find fault - just searching for the truth - I have no > > personal experience of it, unfortunately. > > The verse you mentioned does not really belittle the worship of "other deities". BTW, the word "anya devataah" literally means "other deities" or "other gods", but some scholars translate it as "demigods". This translation is highly questionable, as the word demigod has a different connotation. > > Verses 7-20 to 7-24 of BhagavadGeetha essentially mean the following: "People with various desires propitiate deities following various procedures that are set by nature and by themselves. If a person is devoted to a particular deity, it is because *I* have created that devotion within him. *I* then make him pray to that deity and *I* make him fulfill his good desires. [i do it all.] In the end, men of small intelligence get their good desires because of me [though they may not realize it]. My devotees praying to deities [without specific desires] will get them and will get me too (maam = me, api = *too*). I am inexpressible, supreme and present in everything and everywhere [i.e. in all deities too], but ignorant people do not understand it and consider me to be a specific person." > > Krishna is not belittling the worship of Shiva etc ("demigods") above, as commonly interpreted by hard-core Krishna devotees of Kali Yuga. He is instead telling us that he is not a specific person and is present in everything and everywhere (in Vishnu, in Shiva, in Gauri, in Skanda etc). If he is belittling something, it is praying to deities with desires. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity to fulfill a specific desire, the end result is the same - you will get the desire if it is a good desire. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity without any desire, the end result is the same - you reach Him. Even if somebody worships Allah (or some other god) without any desires, that person will ultimately reach Krishna only, for Krishna (or Sadashiva or Viraat Swaroopa or ParaaShakti) is the ultimate divine energy that manifests as everything in the seen and unseen universe. Krishna is not a specific person as the above verse says. He is the divine energy present in all deities (Shaiva call the same supreme divine energy as Sadashiva and Shakteyas call ParaaShakti). > > In fact, in verse 9-204, Krishna confirms this explicitly. He says, "Even if one worships another deity with sincerity, he is in fact worshipping me only, albeit not realizing it." This clearly establishes that a sincere devotee of Shiva praying to Shiva without any desires is in fact praying to Krishna unknowingly and will reach Shiva/Krishna in the end! The same thing will hold true to a great Muslim saint who overcomes all desires and prays to Allah sincerely (after all, only a fool would insist that only Hindus get liberated. Great souls are born in all religions). The saint is liberated from rebirth and reaches Allah/Krishna. The real essence of Krishna's timeless teaching is lost in this age of strife, ignorance and intolerance (i.e. Kali Yuga). > > Don't think that the translations you read are perfect. Hinduism has a lot of sects. During the dark age of Hinduism, when Vaishnavas and Shaivas killed each other, a lot of prejudices entered the religious discourse. Luckily, an average Hindu's religious ethos is formed of the fabric of open-mindedness and tolerance, even though aberrations can easily be found in religious literature. The common translations of the above verse (such as what you gave) are but an example. If you read all the available Hindu literature, you will see various instances where various deities are mentioned as the supreme deities of the universe (e.g. Shiva, Shakti, Krishna etc) and all other deities are mentioned to have come from them and to be subordinates. Like I said here earlier, divinity as a spiritual concept is akin to infinity as a mathematical concept. When people used to mathematics of finite numbers try to interpolate it to infinite numbers, they make fools of themselves. In the mathematics of infinite numbers, a can be equal to b, greater than b and less than b, all at the same time! Also, a plus a can still be a and a minus a can also be a (and not zero). Comparing various forms of infinity mathematically is a meaningless exercise. Trying to rank gods is also a similar exercise. Irrespective of the scriptural quotes given by a person engaging in such an exercise, such an exercise only demonstrates one's ignorance (sorry, but there is no other appropriate word). > > > Also, for the benefit of the less knowledgeable ones like myself, > > could please tell us which deites are considered demigods among the > > Ishta Devatas? > > Some people consider any deity who is not an incarnation of Vishnu to be a demigod and not fit for worship. This includes Shiva, Gauri, Ganesha, Skanda, Durga etc, all mentioned by Parasara in the section on karakamsa. > > The bottomline is: If a person has some good desires, feel free to suggest the worship of any deity to fulfill the desire based on the chart. If a person wants to be liberated, suggest the worship of a deity based on the 12th from karakamsa as suggested by Sage Parasara, Sage Jaimini and other great worshippers of Shiva and Vishnu in the tradition of Jyotish. > > > Thank you, > > Sundeep > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > Narasimha > > PS: I don't understand how this discussion on "demigod worship" turned into a discussion on tropical vs sidereal systems! I will not take part in the latter discussion. > > PPS: Sri Achyuta Dasa was an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and he is the Parama Guru of our Jyotish parampara. When attacking my guru Pt. Sanjay Rath recently, a fellow astrologer from a Vaishnava parampara belittled Sri Achyuta because the great man was a Shakti worshipper. Later that attack spilled into this list also, when the mail was forwarded here by somebody. Ever since that comment on Sri Achyuta Dasa was made, I have been thinking of commenting on the matter of worshipping deities other thjan Vishnu's incarnations. Finally, I got the opportunity! Please note that great Vaishnavas like Vyasa, Parasara, Chaitanya and Achyuta (let alone Rama and Krishna themselves) were not prejudiced and worshipped Shiva and Shakti freely. Sadly, some traditions have become corrupt and intolerant in this matter today... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2003 Report Share Posted March 15, 2003 - <jiabbot <vedic astrology> Saturday, March 15, 2003 2:49 AM RE: [vedic astrology] More on demigod worship > Dear Mr. Rao, > > Thanks for your healthy and much needed corrective to some of the extremist, generally angry, and frankly subtly misogynistic views we sometimes see coming from even very accomplished jyotishis on this list. In my (surely heretical because Buddhistic!) view, subordinating Durga to Krishna essentially means not understanding the mothering side of Krishna! Some would also assert that men are intrinsically smarter than women and other such adharmic pap that is about the equivalent of saying we should stone adulterers "because the book of Leviticus... well, it do say so"! > > Chaitanya was himself pretty damn close to a Sahajiya tantrika. Prostate cancer is most prevalent in Roman Catholic priests, who don't always understand how to move with the _rasa_ of sacred experience in the body. One hopes alternatively that the Sanatana Dharma will not be further utilized to shut down the sacredness of the temple of the human body. > Ultimately the Jyotir Vidya, who is our true Mother, who is not higher or lower than Durga or Krishna but who unites all lovers of Possibility in her outrageous universal embrace, shattering all attempts to relegate her many names to "mere demigod" status -- will have some tricks to play on Jyotishis who practice schismatic deeds (not honoring the sthayibhavas and the rasas of experience, her matrix of aesthetics). Her trickiness, the trickiness of mother Tara, is identical to the tricksterish enlightening moves of baby Krishna. > > Those who pedantically try to refute this fundamental joy (which is ananda itself) neglect their own Mother and mothers (all sentient beings, each of whom has been our mother) and in fact insult the mothering love of Krishna Himself, who resides in the empathy-drenched smile and tears of every human mother, father or feeling person. > > Thank you so much again. > > Sarva mangalam, > > J.I. Abbot > > > "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote: > > >Om Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum > >Dear Sundeep, > > > >> Dear Chandrashekhar, PVR, Gauranga, > >> > >> But in Chapter 7, Verse 23, Lord Krishna also says: > >> "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are > >> limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the > >> planet of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme > >> planet". > >> Can you please explain the above statement also? I am not really > >> trying to find fault - just searching for the truth - I have no > >> personal experience of it, unfortunately. > > > >The verse you mentioned does not really belittle the worship of "other deities". BTW, the word "anya devataah" literally means "other deities" or "other gods", but some scholars translate it as "demigods". This translation is highly questionable, as the word demigod has a different connotation. > > > >Verses 7-20 to 7-24 of BhagavadGeetha essentially mean the following: "People with various desires propitiate deities following various procedures that are set by nature and by themselves. If a person is devoted to a particular deity, it is because *I* have created that devotion within him. *I* then make him pray to that deity and *I* make him fulfill his good desires. [i do it all.] In the end, men of small intelligence get their good desires because of me [though they may not realize it]. My devotees praying to deities [without specific desires] will get them and will get me too (maam = me, api = *too*). I am inexpressible, supreme and present in everything and everywhere [i.e. in all deities too], but ignorant people do not understand it and consider me to be a specific person." > > > >Krishna is not belittling the worship of Shiva etc ("demigods") above, as commonly interpreted by hard-core Krishna devotees of Kali Yuga. He is instead telling us that he is not a specific person and is present in everything and everywhere (in Vishnu, in Shiva, in Gauri, in Skanda etc). If he is belittling something, it is praying to deities with desires. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity to fulfill a specific desire, the end result is the same - you will get the desire if it is a good desire. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity without any desire, the end result is the same - you reach Him. Even if somebody worships Allah (or some other god) without any desires, that person will ultimately reach Krishna only, for Krishna (or Sadashiva or Viraat Swaroopa or ParaaShakti) is the ultimate divine energy that manifests as everything in the seen and unseen universe. Krishna is not a specific person as the above verse says. He is the divine energy present in all deit > ies (Shaiva call the same supreme divine energy as Sadashiva and Shakteyas call ParaaShakti). > > > >In fact, in verse 9-204, Krishna confirms this explicitly. He says, "Even if one worships another deity with sincerity, he is in fact worshipping me only, albeit not realizing it." This clearly establishes that a sincere devotee of Shiva praying to Shiva without any desires is in fact praying to Krishna unknowingly and will reach Shiva/Krishna in the end! The same thing will hold true to a great Muslim saint who overcomes all desires and prays to Allah sincerely (after all, only a fool would insist that only Hindus get liberated. Great souls are born in all religions). The saint is liberated from rebirth and reaches Allah/Krishna. The real essence of Krishna's timeless teaching is lost in this age of strife, ignorance and intolerance (i.e. Kali Yuga). > > > >Don't think that the translations you read are perfect. Hinduism has a lot of sects. During the dark age of Hinduism, when Vaishnavas and Shaivas killed each other, a lot of prejudices entered the religious discourse. Luckily, an average Hindu's religious ethos is formed of the fabric of open-mindedness and tolerance, even though aberrations can easily be found in religious literature. The common translations of the above verse (such as what you gave) are but an example. If you read all the available Hindu literature, you will see various instances where various deities are mentioned as the supreme deities of the universe (e.g. Shiva, Shakti, Krishna etc) and all other deities are mentioned to have come from them and to be subordinates. Like I said here earlier, divinity as a spiritual concept is akin to infinity as a mathematical concept. When people used to mathematics of finite numbers try to interpolate it to infinite numbers, they make fools of themselves. In the mathem > atics of infinite numbers, a can be equal to b, greater than b and less than b, all at the same time! Also, a plus a can still be a and a minus a can also be a (and not zero). Comparing various forms of infinity mathematically is a meaningless exercise. Trying to rank gods is also a similar exercise. Irrespective of the scriptural quotes given by a person engaging in such an exercise, such an exercise only demonstrates one's ignorance (sorry, but there is no other appropriate word). > > > >> Also, for the benefit of the less knowledgeable ones like myself, > >> could please tell us which deites are considered demigods among the > >> Ishta Devatas? > > > >Some people consider any deity who is not an incarnation of Vishnu to be a demigod and not fit for worship. This includes Shiva, Gauri, Ganesha, Skanda, Durga etc, all mentioned by Parasara in the section on karakamsa. > > > >The bottomline is: If a person has some good desires, feel free to suggest the worship of any deity to fulfill the desire based on the chart. If a person wants to be liberated, suggest the worship of a deity based on the 12th from karakamsa as suggested by Sage Parasara, Sage Jaimini and other great worshippers of Shiva and Vishnu in the tradition of Jyotish. > > > >> Thank you, > >> Sundeep > > > >May Jupiter's light shine on us, > >Narasimha > > > >PS: I don't understand how this discussion on "demigod worship" turned into a discussion on tropical vs sidereal systems! I will not take part in the latter discussion. > > > >PPS: Sri Achyuta Dasa was an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and he is the Parama Guru of our Jyotish parampara. When attacking my guru Pt. Sanjay Rath recently, a fellow astrologer from a Vaishnava parampara belittled Sri Achyuta because the great man was a Shakti worshipper. Later that attack spilled into this list also, when the mail was forwarded here by somebody. Ever since that comment on Sri Achyuta Dasa was made, I have been thinking of commenting on the matter of worshipping deities other thjan Vishnu's incarnations. Finally, I got the opportunity! Please note that great Vaishnavas like Vyasa, Parasara, Chaitanya and Achyuta (let alone Rama and Krishna themselves) were not prejudiced and worshipped Shiva and Shakti freely. Sadly, some traditions have become corrupt and intolerant in this matter today... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2003 Report Share Posted March 15, 2003 Dear Narasimha Rao, I agree with what you have said in its entirety.Demigods is not a concept in Hindu religion. What happened,probably, is that some one used demigods to mean something other than Vishnu. This is what happens when one tries to explain Sanskrit texts by translating them in English. The import is lost.Yakshas and Kinnars are also not demigods, though some translate them as such.Thank you for the detailed explaination. regards, Chandrashekhar. - Narasimha P.V.R. Rao vedic astrology Saturday, March 15, 2003 6:30 AM [vedic astrology] More on demigod worship Om Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum Dear Sundeep, > Dear Chandrashekhar, PVR, Gauranga,> > But in Chapter 7, Verse 23, Lord Krishna also says:> "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are > limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the > planet of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme > planet".> Can you please explain the above statement also? I am not really > trying to find fault - just searching for the truth - I have no > personal experience of it, unfortunately. The verse you mentioned does not really belittle the worship of "other deities". BTW, the word "anya devataah" literally means "other deities" or "other gods", but some scholars translate it as "demigods". This translation is highly questionable, as the word demigod has a different connotation. Verses 7-20 to 7-24 of BhagavadGeetha essentially mean the following: "People with various desires propitiate deities following various procedures that are set by nature and by themselves. If a person is devoted to a particular deity, it is because *I* have created that devotion within him. *I* then make him pray to that deity and *I* make him fulfill his good desires. [i do it all.] In the end, men of small intelligence get their good desires because of me [though they may not realize it]. My devotees praying to deities [without specific desires] will get them and will get me too (maam = me, api = *too*). I am inexpressible, supreme and present in everything and everywhere [i.e. in all deities too], but ignorant people do not understand it and consider me to be a specific person." Krishna is not belittling the worship of Shiva etc ("demigods") above, as commonly interpreted by hard-core Krishna devotees of Kali Yuga. He is instead telling us that he is not a specific person and is present in everything and everywhere (in Vishnu, in Shiva, in Gauri, in Skanda etc). If he is belittling something, it is praying to deities with desires. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity to fulfill a specific desire, the end result is the same - you will get the desire if it is a good desire. If you pray to Krishna or any other deity without any desire, the end result is the same - you reach Him. Even if somebody worships Allah (or some other god) without any desires, that person will ultimately reach Krishna only, for Krishna (or Sadashiva or Viraat Swaroopa or ParaaShakti) is the ultimate divine energy that manifests as everything in the seen and unseen universe. Krishna is not a specific person as the above verse says. He is the divine energy present in all deities (Shaiva call the same supreme divine energy as Sadashiva and Shakteyas call ParaaShakti). In fact, in verse 9-204, Krishna confirms this explicitly. He says, "Even if one worships another deity with sincerity, he is in fact worshipping me only, albeit not realizing it." This clearly establishes that a sincere devotee of Shiva praying to Shiva without any desires is in fact praying to Krishna unknowingly and will reach Shiva/Krishna in the end! The same thing will hold true to a great Muslim saint who overcomes all desires and prays to Allah sincerely (after all, only a fool would insist that only Hindus get liberated. Great souls are born in all religions). The saint is liberated from rebirth and reaches Allah/Krishna. The real essence of Krishna's timeless teaching is lost in this age of strife, ignorance and intolerance (i.e. Kali Yuga). Don't think that the translations you read are perfect. Hinduism has a lot of sects. During the dark age of Hinduism, when Vaishnavas and Shaivas killed each other, a lot of prejudices entered the religious discourse. Luckily, an average Hindu's religious ethos is formed of the fabric of open-mindedness and tolerance, even though aberrations can easily be found in religious literature. The common translations of the above verse (such as what you gave) are but an example. If you read all the available Hindu literature, you will see various instances where various deities are mentioned as the supreme deities of the universe (e.g. Shiva, Shakti, Krishna etc) and all other deities are mentioned to have come from them and to be subordinates. Like I said here earlier, divinity as a spiritual concept is akin to infinity as a mathematical concept. When people used to mathematics of finite numbers try to interpolate it to infinite numbers, they make fools of themselves. In the mathematics of infinite numbers, a can be equal to b, greater than b and less than b, all at the same time! Also, a plus a can still be a and a minus a can also be a (and not zero). Comparing various forms of infinity mathematically is a meaningless exercise. Trying to rank gods is also a similar exercise. Irrespective of the scriptural quotes given by a person engaging in such an exercise, such an exercise only demonstrates one's ignorance (sorry, but there is no other appropriate word). > Also, for the benefit of the less knowledgeable ones like myself, > could please tell us which deites are considered demigods among the > Ishta Devatas? Some people consider any deity who is not an incarnation of Vishnu to be a demigod and not fit for worship. This includes Shiva, Gauri, Ganesha, Skanda, Durga etc, all mentioned by Parasara in the section on karakamsa. The bottomline is: If a person has some good desires, feel free to suggest the worship of any deity to fulfill the desire based on the chart. If a person wants to be liberated, suggest the worship of a deity based on the 12th from karakamsa as suggested by Sage Parasara, Sage Jaimini and other great worshippers of Shiva and Vishnu in the tradition of Jyotish. > Thank you,> Sundeep May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha PS: I don't understand how this discussion on "demigod worship" turned into a discussion on tropical vs sidereal systems! I will not take part in the latter discussion. PPS: Sri Achyuta Dasa was an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and he is the Parama Guru of our Jyotish parampara. When attacking my guru Pt. Sanjay Rath recently, a fellow astrologer from a Vaishnava parampara belittled Sri Achyuta because the great man was a Shakti worshipper. Later that attack spilled into this list also, when the mail was forwarded here by somebody. Ever since that comment on Sri Achyuta Dasa was made, I have been thinking of commenting on the matter of worshipping deities other thjan Vishnu's incarnations. Finally, I got the opportunity! Please note that great Vaishnavas like Vyasa, Parasara, Chaitanya and Achyuta (let alone Rama and Krishna themselves) were not prejudiced and worshipped Shiva and Shakti freely. Sadly, some traditions have become corrupt and intolerant in this matter today... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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