Guest guest Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Namaste all, I caught a little bit of discussion on Bush's chart last week. But, I have been busy of late with work and cricket and did not read the posts fully. I just read bits and pieces of a couple of posts. I have a couple of comments on what I read. I am sorry if I misunderstood something somebody wrote. Somebody wrote that the native could not die from a gunshot because Mars is a yogakaraka. Let me point out that Indira Gandhi, who too had Cancer lagna and hence Mars as a yogakaraka, was shot by assassins. Mars being a yogakaraka has nothing to do with death by gunshot. To see the circumstances of death, look at the 3rd from arudha lagna (AL) as advised by Maharshi Jaimini. AL is in Sc in the chart under consideration. The 3rd from there is Cp. It is aspected by Mars, Rahu and Ketu and no other planets. This clearly shows a diabolical (Rahu) and unnatural (nodes) death, probably involving a big explosion (Ketu in Sc) and/or fire (Mars). Current Shoola dasa of Cp from 2000 to 2009 does have the potential. It is the 3rd from AL and 7th from Rudra. Niryana Shoola dasa of Pisces from 2002 to 2011 is also a killer period, due to Rudra in Cancer. Navamsa dasa of Leo (2000-2009) does not rule out death, as the dasa sign does aspect the Yama (3rd from AL). So, the period until July 2009 is dangerous for the native. If the native came to me for advice, I would advise a lot of remedies, as there is a distinct possibility of the undesirable in the next 6 years. Especially, the current Pisces Brahma dasa till July 2004 is interesting, as Pisces is a trine from Rudra and Maheswara too. The native should be extremely careful, certainly till July 2004 and perhaps till July 2009. Another point seemed to be made on the conjunction of lagna lord Moon and 9th lord Jupiter and somebody seemed to be saying that it shows great principles. I humbly disagree. Jupiter, the 9th lord, is in marana karaka sthana and that can even show destruction of dharma, i.e. somebody without a sense of dharma. In addition, in dharmamsa (navamsa), Jupiter and Moon are together again, but afflicted by all the worst malefics - Rahu, Mars and Saturn. Not encouraging again. Jupiter in Vahni (fire) shashtyamsa and Visha (poison) nadyamsa hardly suggests a man of great dharma and principles. Thus, Jupiter and Moon combination does not necessarily imply that the native is principled and dharmik. May Jupiter's light shine on us,Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Namaste Narasimha, At 11:21 PM 3/3/03 -0500, you wrote: Somebody wrote that the native could not die from a gunshot because Mars is a yogakaraka. Let me point out that Indira Gandhi, who too had Cancer lagna and hence Mars as a yogakaraka, was shot by assassins. Mars being a yogakaraka has nothing to do with death by gunshot. To see the circumstances of death, look at the 3rd from arudha lagna (AL) as advised by Maharshi Jaimini. I respectfully disagree with you. There must be more than just malefic influences on the 3rd from AL to cause death by unnatural means such as assassination. Note as follows: Indira Gandhi: In Indira Gandhi's chart, the 3rd from AL has only Ketu (a benefic according to Jaimini), while, apart from Rahu, Venus is the only other planet aspecting the 3rd from AL. So how could these rather mild afflictions show that she would die by assassination? Mars, on the other hand, although a yogakaraka, does indeed aspect both the lagna lord and the 8th house. Another case in point: Look at the chart of John F. Kennedy, who died by gunshot: 5/29/1917 15:00 EST 71W07:18 42N19:54 The AL is Scorpio, the 3rd from which is Capricorn. Now, Capricorn has only the aspects of benefics, Viz. Moon, Jupiter, Venus, and Sun. So, you see, there is more to it than just malefics aspecting 3rd from AL. Mars, however, in that chart does indeed account for assassination, being in Aries as 8th lord, with lord of lagna. Further, in Bush's or anyone's chart, the 3rd from the Atmakaraka, as well as from lagna, are also places indicating death. Why just single out 3rd from AL? Jupiter/Moon in the 3rd from AK and lagna describes a totally different scenario than what you are painting above. Finally, the lagna and its lord receive much reinforcements from benefics, viz. Venus, Mercury, and Jupiter. * Question: If someone handed you the chart of Indira Gandhi prior to her death, would you have been able to predict death by gunshot assassination ? If so, how? Another point seemed to be made on the conjunction of lagna lord Moon and 9th lord Jupiter and somebody seemed to be saying that it shows great principles. I humbly disagree. Jupiter, the 9th lord, is in marana karaka sthana and that can even show destruction of dharma, i.e. somebody without a sense of dharma. In addition, in dharmamsa (navamsa), Jupiter and Moon are together again, but afflicted by all the worst malefics - Rahu, Mars and Saturn. Not encouraging again. Jupiter in Vahni (fire) shashtyamsa and Visha (poison) nadyamsa hardly suggests a man of great dharma and principles. Thus, Jupiter and Moon combination does not necessarily imply that the native is principled and dharmik. Still, Raja-Laksmi yoga accounts for a certain level of faith, or religious belief and orientation. Simply because Jupiter is in Marana karaka sthana does not nullify the Laksmi yoga, in my opinion. Raja-Laksmi yoga in the Navamsa is made even stronger given that 5th lord, 9th lord Jupiter and Moon, are joined by Lagnamsa lord Mars. Saturn, a kendra lord, reinforces Raja-yoga. Maybe he is not Dharmic in the sense of his surrounding himself with Sattva guna. Then again, a Ksatriya, or in modern times, president of the US, is not expected to be Sattvic. If the Atmakaraka is exalted in the Navamsa in the 5th, while natural AK Sun is exalted also, that accounts for a certain level of sincerity around spiritual or religious principles. Further, exalted AK Venus does not receive aspects from any malefics in the Navamsa either. Further, in Vimsamsa, AK Venus becomes a yogakaraka, and occupies is Moolatrikona sign in a kendra from lagna. Jupiter therein occupies his Moolatrikona sign (Sg) also, while the Sun is in the 9th house. Further, there are two debilitated planets, Mercury and Moon, signs of someone who has spiritual humility to his credit. So you cannot say that Bush is Adharmic on these accounts. Perhaps not elevated like a Rishi, but then again, certainly not of demonic stock either. How many presidents in Kali-yuga are possessed of great Dharma and principles anyway? It seems to me Pandava Maharaja Yudhisthira was the last of that genre. Would be interested to hear your comments on the above, especially assassination scenarios. Best wishes, Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Jaya JagannathNamaste Robert, I would like to respond to the Ketu bit. Ketu can be a benefic for spiritual seeker but not for Health reasons. Ketu is the natural Rudra and higher harmonic of Mrtyu Karaka Mars. So Ketu can give a painful death. However, Maharishi Jaimini goes on mentioning that Ketu's involvement can show accidents. Best Regards Sarajit - Robert A. Koch vedic astrology Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:35 AM [vedic astrology] Re: Bush chart comments Namaste Narasimha, At 11:21 PM 3/3/03 -0500, you wrote: Somebody wrote that the native could not die from a gunshot because Mars is a yogakaraka. Let me point out that Indira Gandhi, who too had Cancer lagna and hence Mars as a yogakaraka, was shot by assassins. Mars being a yogakaraka has nothing to do with death by gunshot. To see the circumstances of death, look at the 3rd from arudha lagna (AL) as advised by Maharshi Jaimini.I respectfully disagree with you. There must be more than just malefic influences on the 3rd from AL to cause death by unnatural means such as assassination. Note as follows: Indira Gandhi: In Indira Gandhi's chart, the 3rd from AL has only Ketu (a benefic according to Jaimini), while, apart from Rahu, Venus is the only other planet aspecting the 3rd from AL. So how could these rather mild afflictions show that she would die by assassination? Mars, on the other hand, although a yogakaraka, does indeed aspect both the lagna lord and the 8th house. Another case in point: Look at the chart of John F. Kennedy, who died by gunshot: 5/29/191715:00 EST71W07:1842N19:54The AL is Scorpio, the 3rd from which is Capricorn. Now, Capricorn has only the aspects of benefics, Viz. Moon, Jupiter, Venus, and Sun. So, you see, there is more to it than just malefics aspecting 3rd from AL. Mars, however, in that chart does indeed account for assassination, being in Aries as 8th lord, with lord of lagna. Further, in Bush's or anyone's chart, the 3rd from the Atmakaraka, as well as from lagna, are also places indicating death. Why just single out 3rd from AL? Jupiter/Moon in the 3rd from AK and lagna describes a totally different scenario than what you are painting above. Finally, the lagna and its lord receive much reinforcements from benefics, viz. Venus, Mercury, and Jupiter. * Question: If someone handed you the chart of Indira Gandhi prior to her death, would you have been able to predict death by gunshot assassination ? If so, how? Another point seemed to be made on the conjunction of lagna lord Moon and 9th lord Jupiter and somebody seemed to be saying that it shows great principles. I humbly disagree. Jupiter, the 9th lord, is in marana karaka sthana and that can even show destruction of dharma, i.e. somebody without a sense of dharma. In addition, in dharmamsa (navamsa), Jupiter and Moon are together again, but afflicted by all the worst malefics - Rahu, Mars and Saturn. Not encouraging again. Jupiter in Vahni (fire) shashtyamsa and Visha (poison) nadyamsa hardly suggests a man of great dharma and principles. Thus, Jupiter and Moon combination does not necessarily imply that the native is principled and dharmik.Still, Raja-Laksmi yoga accounts for a certain level of faith, or religious belief and orientation. Simply because Jupiter is in Marana karaka sthana does not nullify the Laksmi yoga, in my opinion. Raja-Laksmi yoga in the Navamsa is made even stronger given that 5th lord, 9th lord Jupiter and Moon, are joined by Lagnamsa lord Mars. Saturn, a kendra lord, reinforces Raja-yoga. Maybe he is not Dharmic in the sense of his surrounding himself with Sattva guna. Then again, a Ksatriya, or in modern times, president of the US, is not expected to be Sattvic. If the Atmakaraka is exalted in the Navamsa in the 5th, while natural AK Sun is exalted also, that accounts for a certain level of sincerity around spiritual or religious principles. Further, exalted AK Venus does not receive aspects from any malefics in the Navamsa either. Further, in Vimsamsa, AK Venus becomes a yogakaraka, and occupies is Moolatrikona sign in a kendra from lagna. Jupiter therein occupies his Moolatrikona sign (Sg) also, while the Sun is in the 9th house. Further, there are two debilitated planets, Mercury and Moon, signs of someone who has spiritual humility to his credit. So you cannot say that Bush is Adharmic on these accounts. Perhaps not elevated like a Rishi, but then again, certainly not of demonic stock either. How many presidents in Kali-yuga are possessed of great Dharma and principles anyway? It seems to me Pandava Maharaja Yudhisthira was the last of that genre. Would be interested to hear your comments on the above, especially assassination scenarios. Best wishes,Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Please let me add, As Narasimha wrote, 3rd It's aspected by Mars Rahu- and no benefics in the picture- I guess that counts a lot too. Anna Sarajit Poddar <sarajit (AT) (DOT) org> wrote: Jaya JagannathNamaste Robert, I would like to respond to the Ketu bit. Ketu can be a benefic for spiritual seeker but not for Health reasons. Ketu is the natural Rudra and higher harmonic of Mrtyu Karaka Mars. So Ketu can give a painful death. However, Maharishi Jaimini goes on mentioning that Ketu's involvement can show accidents. Best Regards Sarajit - Robert A. Koch vedic astrology Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:35 AM [vedic astrology] Re: Bush chart comments Namaste Narasimha, At 11:21 PM 3/3/03 -0500, you wrote: Somebody wrote that the native could not die from a gunshot because Mars is a yogakaraka. Let me point out that Indira Gandhi, who too had Cancer lagna and hence Mars as a yogakaraka, was shot by assassins. Mars being a yogakaraka has nothing to do with death by gunshot. To see the circumstances of death, look at the 3rd from arudha lagna (AL) as advised by Maharshi Jaimini.I respectfully disagree with you. There must be more than just malefic influences on the 3rd from AL to cause death by unnatural means such as assassination. Note as follows: Indira Gandhi: In Indira Gandhi's chart, the 3rd from AL has only Ketu (a benefic according to Jaimini), while, apart from Rahu, Venus is the only other planet aspecting the 3rd from AL. So how could these rather mild afflictions show that she would die by assassination? Mars, on the other hand, although a yogakaraka, does indeed aspect both the lagna lord and the 8th house. Another case in point: Look at the chart of John F. Kennedy, who died by gunshot: 5/29/191715:00 EST71W07:1842N19:54The AL is Scorpio, the 3rd from which is Capricorn. Now, Capricorn has only the aspects of benefics, Viz. Moon, Jupiter, Venus, and Sun. So, you see, there is more to it than just malefics aspecting 3rd from AL. Mars, however, in that chart does indeed account for assassination, being in Aries as 8th lord, with lord of lagna. Further, in Bush's or anyone's chart, the 3rd from the Atmakaraka, as well as from lagna, are also places indicating death. Why just single out 3rd from AL? Jupiter/Moon in the 3rd from AK and lagna describes a totally different scenario than what you are painting above. Finally, the lagna and its lord receive much reinforcements from benefics, viz. Venus, Mercury, and Jupiter. * Question: If someone handed you the chart of Indira Gandhi prior to her death, would you have been able to predict death by gunshot assassination ? If so, how? Another point seemed to be made on the conjunction of lagna lord Moon and 9th lord Jupiter and somebody seemed to be saying that it shows great principles. I humbly disagree. Jupiter, the 9th lord, is in marana karaka sthana and that can even show destruction of dharma, i.e. somebody without a sense of dharma. In addition, in dharmamsa (navamsa), Jupiter and Moon are together again, but afflicted by all the worst malefics - Rahu, Mars and Saturn. Not encouraging again. Jupiter in Vahni (fire) shashtyamsa and Visha (poison) nadyamsa hardly suggests a man of great dharma and principles. Thus, Jupiter and Moon combination does not necessarily imply that the native is principled and dharmik.Still, Raja-Laksmi yoga accounts for a certain level of faith, or religious belief and orientation. Simply because Jupiter is in Marana karaka sthana does not nullify the Laksmi yoga, in my opinion. Raja-Laksmi yoga in the Navamsa is made even stronger given that 5th lord, 9th lord Jupiter and Moon, are joined by Lagnamsa lord Mars. Saturn, a kendra lord, reinforces Raja-yoga. Maybe he is not Dharmic in the sense of his surrounding himself with Sattva guna. Then again, a Ksatriya, or in modern times, president of the US, is not expected to be Sattvic. If the Atmakaraka is exalted in the Navamsa in the 5th, while natural AK Sun is exalted also, that accounts for a certain level of sincerity around spiritual or religious principles. Further, exalted AK Venus does not receive aspects from any malefics in the Navamsa either. Further, in Vimsamsa, AK Venus becomes a yogakaraka, and occupies is Moolatrikona sign in a kendra from lagna. Jupiter therein occupies his Moolatrikona sign (Sg) also, while the Sun is in the 9th house. Further, there are two debilitated planets, Mercury and Moon, signs of someone who has spiritual humility to his credit. So you cannot say that Bush is Adharmic on these accounts. Perhaps not elevated like a Rishi, but then again, certainly not of demonic stock either. How many presidents in Kali-yuga are possessed of great Dharma and principles anyway? It seems to me Pandava Maharaja Yudhisthira was the last of that genre. Would be interested to hear your comments on the above, especially assassination scenarios. Best wishes,Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Do you ? Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 not that it's the only sourse of info of the kind Furher elaboration- lack of the them with regards to 3rd, or even well aspected 3rd as in the case of JFK, doesn't exlude it, if other factors, like mars in 8th as Robert Koch mentioned, indicate that. I was sure my understanding was OK- then now what I assumed appears no to be 'common knowledge'... Yea, would be good if set of arguments would be applied consinsently. Thanks, Anna Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Dear Sarajit and Anna, At 07:16 PM 3/4/03 -0800, you wrote: Dear Sarajit, Please let me add, As Narasimha wrote, 3rd It's aspected by Mars Rahu- and no benefics in the picture- I guess that counts a lot too. Anna Anna, you're getting charts mixed up. Sarajit was referring to Indira Gandhi's chart, wherein Ketu is in the 3rd from AL. You are referring to Bush's chart. * My point was this: In Indira Gandhi's chart, Ketu alone in the 3rd form AL is not enough to indicate death by assassination. Venus too is aspecting as well. *Secondly, in JFK's chart, which I posted, 3rd from AL has *only* benefics aspecting it. This should have given a very smooth or easy death. His was the most horrible of assassinations in USA's memory. OTHER CHART EXAMPLES OF ASSASSINATION I am going to post some findings on what really causes assassination when I get the time. Meanwhile, you may look at the following charts and see if you can find out why the natives died of assassination by gunshot: 1. Mahatma Gandhi: assassinated by gunshot on Jan. 3, 1948 Oct. 2, 1869 07:56 LMT (TZ -05:21) 69E36 21N38 Lagna is Libra, while AL is Cancer. There is only the Sun in the 3rd from AL, while no other planets aspect it. Sun is neutral in the matter of death inflictions. 2. William McKinley (president of US up to his assassination on Sep. 6, 1901) Jan. 29, 1843 23:32 LMT (TZ +05:23:03) 80W45:56 41N10:58 Lagna is 3:21 Libra, while AL is Aquarius. There are no planets at all, either occupying or aspecting the 3rd from AL. The two other examples that were given were of (a) JFK, in whose chart the 3rd from AL is aspected by Jupiter, Moon, Venus, and Sun; (b) Indira Gandhi, in whose chart Ketu is in the 3rd from AL, while Venus aspects. The point is, that the principle of malefic affliction to the 3rd from AL showing the manner/circumstances of death, does not seem to hold up very well in consideration of assassination cases. In the charts quoted, assassination was specifically by gunshot. This is why I am not convinced that G.W. Bush will be assassinated due to malefics aspecting the 3rd from AL in his chart. ASSASSINATION In all the assassination by gunshot charts shown so far, the following apply uniformly: 1. There is a yoga between the lagna or its lord, and the lord of the 7th; 2. Mars and/or Saturn aspects or afflicts the lagna or its lord; 3. Mars and/or Saturn afflict the 8th or its lord. In the case of Bush, Mars - the chief karaka for gunshot wounds - does not associate with or afflict the lagna or its lord in any way. In all the other charts given, Mars afflicts the lagna or its lord, as well as the 8th house/lord, uniformly. CONCLUSION More case histories with known manner and circumstances of death, must be shown in a systematic way, in order to understand the underlying principles. Simply quoting yogas by rote, will not always bear the desired result. Best wishes, Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Jaya Jagannath Dear Robert, I fully agree with you that a full overview needs to be taken before pronouncing the judgement and the cause of death if very exhaustive. Now I fully agree with you that 3rd and 8th from AK matters too and there are also several sutras in UMSJ which says that whenever Moon is placed in those places, it can give the result of based on its navamsa sign. There are many more sutras on finding the circumtances of death from Navamsa. I only differed on the Ketu as a benefic or not for health reason. I agree with your other points. I guess the statement "Simply quoting yogas by rote, will not always bear the desired result." is not for me... lol. Anyway I shall do an analysis of the cases you have sited and mail back. Best regards Sarajit - Robert A. Koch vedic astrology Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:26 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Bush chart comments Dear Sarajit and Anna, At 07:16 PM 3/4/03 -0800, you wrote: Dear Sarajit, Please let me add, As Narasimha wrote, 3rd It's aspected by Mars Rahu- and no benefics in the picture- I guess that counts a lot too. Anna Anna, you're getting charts mixed up. Sarajit was referring to Indira Gandhi's chart, wherein Ketu is in the 3rd from AL. You are referring to Bush's chart. * My point was this: In Indira Gandhi's chart, Ketu alone in the 3rd form AL is not enough to indicate death by assassination. Venus too is aspecting as well. *Secondly, in JFK's chart, which I posted, 3rd from AL has *only* benefics aspecting it. This should have given a very smooth or easy death. His was the most horrible of assassinations in USA's memory. OTHER CHART EXAMPLES OF ASSASSINATIONI am going to post some findings on what really causes assassination when I get the time. Meanwhile, you may look at the following charts and see if you can find out why the natives died of assassination by gunshot: 1. Mahatma Gandhi: assassinated by gunshot on Jan. 3, 1948Oct. 2, 186907:56 LMT (TZ -05:21)69E36 21N38Lagna is Libra, while AL is Cancer. There is only the Sun in the 3rd from AL, while no other planets aspect it. Sun is neutral in the matter of death inflictions. 2. William McKinley (president of US up to his assassination on Sep. 6, 1901)Jan. 29, 184323:32 LMT (TZ +05:23:03)80W45:56 41N10:58Lagna is 3:21 Libra, while AL is Aquarius. There are no planets at all, either occupying or aspecting the 3rd from AL. The two other examples that were given were of (a) JFK, in whose chart the 3rd from AL is aspected by Jupiter, Moon, Venus, and Sun; (b) Indira Gandhi, in whose chart Ketu is in the 3rd from AL, while Venus aspects. The point is, that the principle of malefic affliction to the 3rd from AL showing the manner/circumstances of death, does not seem to hold up very well in consideration of assassination cases. In the charts quoted, assassination was specifically by gunshot. This is why I am not convinced that G.W. Bush will be assassinated due to malefics aspecting the 3rd from AL in his chart. ASSASSINATIONIn all the assassination by gunshot charts shown so far, the following apply uniformly: 1. There is a yoga between the lagna or its lord, and the lord of the 7th; 2. Mars and/or Saturn aspects or afflicts the lagna or its lord; 3. Mars and/or Saturn afflict the 8th or its lord. In the case of Bush, Mars - the chief karaka for gunshot wounds - does not associate with or afflict the lagna or its lord in any way. In all the other charts given, Mars afflicts the lagna or its lord, as well as the 8th house/lord, uniformly. CONCLUSIONMore case histories with known manner and circumstances of death, must be shown in a systematic way, in order to understand the underlying principles. Simply quoting yogas by rote, will not always bear the desired result. Best wishes,Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dear JB, Robert and other Gurus, I am watching your interchange with interest.So far as Indira Gandhi Gandhi's Horoscope is concerned,the chart I have shows exhange between Mars and Sun. Sun being lord of 2nd gets maraka power and Mars having Sambandha with him can also act as a Maraka. Again mMars and Sun occupy Leo in Navamsha. A yogakaraka as I understand it gives effect to various yogaas depending on his Gochar position and during his dashas.Again Saturn is lord of the 8th and she was assasinated during her Saturn Dasha Rahu Antar. Do we have to go for Arudha Lagna, when natal horoscope navamsha and Dashas give sufficient indications? Your valued views would be appreciated. Chandrashekhar. - j.b vedic astrology Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:46 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Bush chart comments Dear Sarajit, Please let me add, As Narasimha wrote, 3rd It's aspected by Mars Rahu- and no benefics in the picture- I guess that counts a lot too. Anna Sarajit Poddar <sarajit (AT) (DOT) org> wrote: Jaya JagannathNamaste Robert, I would like to respond to the Ketu bit. Ketu can be a benefic for spiritual seeker but not for Health reasons. Ketu is the natural Rudra and higher harmonic of Mrtyu Karaka Mars. So Ketu can give a painful death. However, Maharishi Jaimini goes on mentioning that Ketu's involvement can show accidents. Best Regards Sarajit - Robert A. Koch vedic astrology Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:35 AM [vedic astrology] Re: Bush chart comments Namaste Narasimha, At 11:21 PM 3/3/03 -0500, you wrote: Somebody wrote that the native could not die from a gunshot because Mars is a yogakaraka. Let me point out that Indira Gandhi, who too had Cancer lagna and hence Mars as a yogakaraka, was shot by assassins. Mars being a yogakaraka has nothing to do with death by gunshot. To see the circumstances of death, look at the 3rd from arudha lagna (AL) as advised by Maharshi Jaimini.I respectfully disagree with you. There must be more than just malefic influences on the 3rd from AL to cause death by unnatural means such as assassination. Note as follows: Indira Gandhi: In Indira Gandhi's chart, the 3rd from AL has only Ketu (a benefic according to Jaimini), while, apart from Rahu, Venus is the only other planet aspecting the 3rd from AL. So how could these rather mild afflictions show that she would die by assassination? Mars, on the other hand, although a yogakaraka, does indeed aspect both the lagna lord and the 8th house. Another case in point: Look at the chart of John F. Kennedy, who died by gunshot: 5/29/191715:00 EST71W07:1842N19:54The AL is Scorpio, the 3rd from which is Capricorn. Now, Capricorn has only the aspects of benefics, Viz. Moon, Jupiter, Venus, and Sun. So, you see, there is more to it than just malefics aspecting 3rd from AL. Mars, however, in that chart does indeed account for assassination, being in Aries as 8th lord, with lord of lagna. Further, in Bush's or anyone's chart, the 3rd from the Atmakaraka, as well as from lagna, are also places indicating death. Why just single out 3rd from AL? Jupiter/Moon in the 3rd from AK and lagna describes a totally different scenario than what you are painting above. Finally, the lagna and its lord receive much reinforcements from benefics, viz. Venus, Mercury, and Jupiter. * Question: If someone handed you the chart of Indira Gandhi prior to her death, would you have been able to predict death by gunshot assassination ? If so, how? Another point seemed to be made on the conjunction of lagna lord Moon and 9th lord Jupiter and somebody seemed to be saying that it shows great principles. I humbly disagree. Jupiter, the 9th lord, is in marana karaka sthana and that can even show destruction of dharma, i.e. somebody without a sense of dharma. In addition, in dharmamsa (navamsa), Jupiter and Moon are together again, but afflicted by all the worst malefics - Rahu, Mars and Saturn. Not encouraging again. Jupiter in Vahni (fire) shashtyamsa and Visha (poison) nadyamsa hardly suggests a man of great dharma and principles. Thus, Jupiter and Moon combination does not necessarily imply that the native is principled and dharmik.Still, Raja-Laksmi yoga accounts for a certain level of faith, or religious belief and orientation. Simply because Jupiter is in Marana karaka sthana does not nullify the Laksmi yoga, in my opinion. Raja-Laksmi yoga in the Navamsa is made even stronger given that 5th lord, 9th lord Jupiter and Moon, are joined by Lagnamsa lord Mars. Saturn, a kendra lord, reinforces Raja-yoga. Maybe he is not Dharmic in the sense of his surrounding himself with Sattva guna. Then again, a Ksatriya, or in modern times, president of the US, is not expected to be Sattvic. If the Atmakaraka is exalted in the Navamsa in the 5th, while natural AK Sun is exalted also, that accounts for a certain level of sincerity around spiritual or religious principles. Further, exalted AK Venus does not receive aspects from any malefics in the Navamsa either. Further, in Vimsamsa, AK Venus becomes a yogakaraka, and occupies is Moolatrikona sign in a kendra from lagna. Jupiter therein occupies his Moolatrikona sign (Sg) also, while the Sun is in the 9th house. Further, there are two debilitated planets, Mercury and Moon, signs of someone who has spiritual humility to his credit. So you cannot say that Bush is Adharmic on these accounts. Perhaps not elevated like a Rishi, but then again, certainly not of demonic stock either. How many presidents in Kali-yuga are possessed of great Dharma and principles anyway? It seems to me Pandava Maharaja Yudhisthira was the last of that genre. Would be interested to hear your comments on the above, especially assassination scenarios. Best wishes,Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 I didn't mixed the charts. It's clear from what I wrote. Besides, VIOLENT DEATH was an issue, not particulat chart. What I said, based on my understanding of Narasimha's text, and my astro knoiwledge was that malefic aspectson 3rd CAN indicate violent death, while lack of them or even benefic aspecting /Indira, JFK/, DOES NOT exlude possibility of violent death. Since/If that's common thing in astrology, that one single factor is not enough, I am not getting your point on this. That you don't think that 3rd house have strong bearing on a manner of death is another point, and a very good one- to be researched. Thanks for the common factors presnt at the time of assassination- that provides a good framework for research. Anna "Robert A. Koch" <rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com> wrote: Dear Sarajit and Anna, At 07:16 PM 3/4/03 -0800, you wrote: Dear Sarajit, Please let me add, As Narasimha wrote, 3rd It's aspected by Mars Rahu- and no benefics in the picture- I guess that counts a lot too. Anna Anna, you're getting charts mixed up. Sarajit was referring to Indira Gandhi's chart, wherein Ketu is in the 3rd from AL. You are referring to Bush's chart. * My point was this: In Indira Gandhi's chart, Ketu alone in the 3rd form AL is not enough to indicate death by assassination. Venus too is aspecting as well. *Secondly, in JFK's chart, which I posted, 3rd from AL has *only* benefics aspecting it. This should have given a very smooth or easy death. His was the most horrible of assassinations in USA's memory. OTHER CHART EXAMPLES OF ASSASSINATIONI am going to post some findings on what really causes assassination when I get the time. Meanwhile, you may look at the following charts and see if you can find out why the natives died of assassination by gunshot: 1. Mahatma Gandhi: assassinated by gunshot on Jan. 3, 1948Oct. 2, 186907:56 LMT (TZ -05:21)69E36 21N38Lagna is Libra, while AL is Cancer. There is only the Sun in the 3rd from AL, while no other planets aspect it. Sun is neutral in the matter of death inflictions. 2. William McKinley (president of US up to his assassination on Sep. 6, 1901)Jan. 29, 184323:32 LMT (TZ +05:23:03)80W45:56 41N10:58Lagna is 3:21 Libra, while AL is Aquarius. There are no planets at all, either occupying or aspecting the 3rd from AL. The two other examples that were given were of (a) JFK, in whose chart the 3rd from AL is aspected by Jupiter, Moon, Venus, and Sun; (b) Indira Gandhi, in whose chart Ketu is in the 3rd from AL, while Venus aspects. The point is, that the principle of malefic affliction to the 3rd from AL showing the manner/circumstances of death, does not seem to hold up very well in consideration of assassination cases. In the charts quoted, assassination was specifically by gunshot. This is why I am not convinced that G.W. Bush will be assassinated due to malefics aspecting the 3rd from AL in his chart. ASSASSINATIONIn all the assassination by gunshot charts shown so far, the following apply uniformly: 1. There is a yoga between the lagna or its lord, and the lord of the 7th; 2. Mars and/or Saturn aspects or afflicts the lagna or its lord; 3. Mars and/or Saturn afflict the 8th or its lord. In the case of Bush, Mars - the chief karaka for gunshot wounds - does not associate with or afflict the lagna or its lord in any way. In all the other charts given, Mars afflicts the lagna or its lord, as well as the 8th house/lord, uniformly. CONCLUSIONMore case histories with known manner and circumstances of death, must be shown in a systematic way, in order to understand the underlying principles. Simply quoting yogas by rote, will not always bear the desired result. Best wishes,Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Do you ? Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dear Anna, At 10:56 AM 3/5/03 -0800, you wrote: Since/If that's common thing in astrology, that one single factor is not enough, I am not getting your point on this. That you don't think that 3rd house have strong bearing on a manner of death is another point, and a very good one- to be researched. Yes, this is the point in going over all of this. I've received from one of my friends today, a good list of assassination charts. The utility of this exercise is to see where the consistencies lie. Narasimha made a good case for malefic planets aspecting the 3rd from A7, in charts where it is stronger than AL. That is a better case than 3rd from AL as was illustrated by me. Anyway, the dicta are clear in Jaimini sutram, but they must be demonstrated convincingly for me to agree. In Bush's chart, no aspect exists at all by Mars to the lagna or lagna lord, whereas in ALL the assassination cases that I showed, that combination was found to exist. Go back and look at the charts of JFK, Indira Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi, and William McKinley. In all these cases, Mars is found to be afflicting either the lagna or lagna lord. This may sound simplistic to some, but is the most consistent factor that can be found. Other factors, such as Gandhi remembering Rama at the time of death (by reciting "He Ram"), are further brilliant demonstrations of Jaimini's principles too. So, if you can show why (1) there was violent death, such as gunshot, explosion etc., and (2) the influences in place when the death occurred with uniformity and consistency, then I will concede. I'm tough on these points, I know. Yet, that is the only way we can "tease out" what works, and what doesn't, and if it doesn't, why. Best wishes, Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Dear Robert, There is a shloka in Jataka Paarijaat Chapter 4 verse 82(I think) which states"Lagneshe Nidhanashsthe moodhe shashthgate thwa. Kshbbdaashyaa c maraNam bandhuheene maheetale." Lord of ascendant posited in Navamsharasi which is identical with the 8th house of the natal horoscope or eclipsed by Sun or in 6th house leads to Native's death by starvation or on the ground with no blood relation by his side. This applies to both Indira Gandhi's horoscope and that of Mahatma Gandhi' horoscope. Is this principle applicable to other assasination charts that you mention? Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Robert A. Koch vedic astrology Thursday, March 06, 2003 1:45 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Bush chart comments Dear Anna, At 10:56 AM 3/5/03 -0800, you wrote: Since/If that's common thing in astrology, that one single factor is not enough, I am not getting your point on this. That you don't think that 3rd house have strong bearing on a manner of death is another point, and a very good one- to be researched. Yes, this is the point in going over all of this. I've received from one of my friends today, a good list of assassination charts. The utility of this exercise is to see where the consistencies lie. Narasimha made a good case for malefic planets aspecting the 3rd from A7, in charts where it is stronger than AL. That is a better case than 3rd from AL as was illustrated by me. Anyway, the dicta are clear in Jaimini sutram, but they must be demonstrated convincingly for me to agree. In Bush's chart, no aspect exists at all by Mars to the lagna or lagna lord, whereas in ALL the assassination cases that I showed, that combination was found to exist. Go back and look at the charts of JFK, Indira Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi, and William McKinley. In all these cases, Mars is found to be afflicting either the lagna or lagna lord. This may sound simplistic to some, but is the most consistent factor that can be found. Other factors, such as Gandhi remembering Rama at the time of death (by reciting "He Ram"), are further brilliant demonstrations of Jaimini's principles too. So, if you can show why (1) there was violent death, such as gunshot, explosion etc., and (2) the influences in place when the death occurred with uniformity and consistency, then I will concede. I'm tough on these points, I know. Yet, that is the only way we can "tease out" what works, and what doesn't, and if it doesn't, why. Best wishes,Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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