Guest guest Posted February 20, 2003 Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 I received this on another list, and thought I would pass it along to you (as it's more likely than not you could send this gentleman in the right direction -- though perhaps not as to reliable sources in European languages, if these don't exist ). If you've received this already, please excuse the duplication beyond this copying to the vedic astrology list and you. I've copied the former as I thought any ensuing dialogue might be of interest, particularly to the degree a comparison to Nadi tradition is warranted. Thanks for your time - all my best. Sincerely, Jesse In a message dated 2/20/2003 8:27:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, martin.gansten (AT) teol (DOT) lu.se writes: Subj: [sidereal] Tieh Pan Shen Shu Date:2/20/2003 8:27:05 AM Eastern Standard Time martin.gansten (AT) teol (DOT) lu.se Reply-to:sidereal To:sidereal Received from Internet: I have tried this question on several academic lists to no avail; let us see if SA list members are better informed... I am looking for information on a Chinese form of divination known as Tieh Pan Shen Shu, or 'iron plate divine number', which is supposedly quite similar to Nadi or Bhrigusamhita readings. Based on a client's birth data, certain numeric sequences are generated, corresponding to numbered sentences in ready-made divination books. These sentences are (again supposedly) quite specific, e.g.: 'Your mother is 29 years older than you', or 'Your father is an army officer'. If members know of any source of information on this practice, scholarly or otherwise (preferably printed sources in European languages), or have any idea as to where such might be sought, I would be very grateful to hear of it. An Internet search yielded a single hit, which was merely an advertisement of TPSS classes for 'advanced students' of Feng Shui at the School of Chinese Metaphysics (apparently based in Los Angeles, Washington DC, and Montreal): http://www.fengshuisos.com/ Martin Visit the Sidereal Astrology Disussion Group at: sidereal Your use of is subject to In-reply-to: 3.0.6.32.20030212113929.00841180 sidereal Martin Gansten martin.gansten Mailing-List: list sidereal; contact sidereal-owner Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:26:10 +0100 [sidereal] Tieh Pan Shen Shu I have tried this question on several academic lists to no avail; let us see if SA list members are better informed... I am looking for information on a Chinese form of divination known as Tieh Pan Shen Shu, or 'iron plate divine number', which is supposedly quite similar to Nadi or Bhrigusamhita readings. Based on a client's birth data, certain numeric sequences are generated, corresponding to numbered sentences in ready-made divination books. These sentences are (again supposedly) quite specific, e.g.: 'Your mother is 29 years older than you', or 'Your father is an army officer'. If members know of any source of information on this practice, scholarly or otherwise (preferably printed sources in European languages), or have any idea as to where such might be sought, I would be very grateful to hear of it. An Internet search yielded a single hit, which was merely an advertisement of TPSS classes for 'advanced students' of Feng Shui at the School of Chinese Metaphysics (apparently based in Los Angeles, Washington DC, and Montreal): http://www.fengshuisos.com/ Martin Visit the Sidereal Astrology Disussion Group at: sidereal Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 How kind of you to offer this! Many thanks, Jesse In a message dated 2/21/2003 9:44:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, swee (AT) coppernet (DOT) zm writes: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Jesse, I replied to you privately, but my mail was sent back. This is not meant to be a lesson, but will give you a fair indication of what it all means. But please no further questions on the subject. (Yes, I am also a member Ken Lee’s list, but am set on reading mail from web; haven’t the time to even peek at what’s being discussed so far.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"">Jaya Jagannatha font-family:"Times New Roman""> font-family:"Times New Roman"">Dear Jesse, font-family:"Times New Roman""> font-family:"Times New Roman"">I replied to you privately, but my mail was sent back. This is not meant to be a lesson, but yes"> will give you a fair indication of what it all means. But please no further questions on the subject. (Yes, I am also a member Ken Lee’s list, but am set on reading mail from web; haven’t the time to even peek at what’s being discussed so far.). font-family:Verdana"> color:blue;font-weight:bold">Lou Pan 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue">In ancient China, the common man would use the farmer's calendar of 360 days while the ruling classes such as the imperial astronomer/astrologer, meteorological officer, and timekeeper used the astronomical year of 365.25 days. font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue">They discovered that the most influential heavenly bodies besides the sun and moon were the Northern Stars. The stars: "Plough" or "Big Dipper" and Polaris gave the variations in the year and ones direction on land or at sea. Polaris in particular was the central hub on which all of the other constellations revolved, finding that the handle of the plough points due East on the Spring Equinox, South for the Summer Solstice, West Autumnal Equinox and North on the Winter Solstice. In its transitional phase from one point to another, it indicates the 24 seasons in the Chinese Agricultural Calendar. mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> color:blue">So it provides a natural and dynamic cycle of evolution, with one star in particular being prevalent at any given moment in time. 11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> color:blue">The astronomer stands facing south and observe the celestial objects that will cross the north-south meridian in their daily motion from east to west known as meridian transits. The northern celestial polar region is known as the Central Pool of Heaven/Celestial Lake. This houses the needle of the Lou Pan. The inside plate/Heaven Plate contains the markings of the Lou Pan and defines where the ladle piece of the compass rests. The Heavenly plate rests on the outer square plate, known as the Earth Plate where all the markings are. The red Cross grid are the 2 red strings or cross markings on a Luo Pan which are used to read the correct direction and meanings. These were also used to correctly time the solstices. The Heavens will always move, and hence the Earth plate will always remain in the same place. The square plate is divided into 9 main squares (9x9=81 in all). In the center, no characters are put there because it is considered the abode of the divine (like Brahmasthana). The element here is Big Earth. Thus we will get Heaven Chi and Earthly Chi. mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue">Use the principles of the Four Pillars which is based on an individual's birth year, month, date and time to predict the rise and fall of luck in a person's life. Five elements: basic elements that used in Feng Shui to describe the characters of objects under study. Any object, including time, usually contains more than one element. Earthy branch never moves, but the stems (elements) will change with time. mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue">In a period that five elements are not balanced, significant misfortune could occur. This method employs the 8 characters/Four Pillars. The 8 characters are also based on the 8 directions or the 8 gates of entry or exit. mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue">The sub to this are the 12 branches to denote the seasons. mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue">Hence the Lou Pan will divine the following: For the year, month, day and the hourly stem is the particular one used on a daily basis for solving problems and other divinatory purposes. There are tables to refer to, but I am giving an example below of how the chart should look. font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue">e.g., thus: border:outset green 1.5pt"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> 12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:blue"> color:blue"> color:blue">Choose the hourly gate and the strongest stem for advising the change of fortune. Check up on your reading on the Chinese almanac where the nadi readings are indicated. All the relevant branches and stems make up the I Ching. For this, you can use the yarrow sticks. font-family:Verdana"> font-family:Verdana">Best wishes, 12.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" 12.0pt;color:blue;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Swee color:blue;mso-color-alt:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">swee (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net 12.0pt;color:blue;mso-color-alt:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">http://www.brihaspati.net/ 12.0pt;color:blue;mso-color-alt:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> 12.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> 10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Verdana"> -----Original Message----- jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com [jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com] Thursday, February 20, 2003 3:59 PM swee (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net; vedic astrology [vedic astrology] Fwd: [sidereal] Tieh Pan Shen Shu Dear Swee, I received this on another list, and thought I would pass it along to you (as it's more likely than not you could send this gentleman in the right direction -- though perhaps not as to reliable sources in European languages, if these don't exist ). If you've received this already, please excuse the duplication beyond this copying to the vedic astrology list and you. I've copied the former as I thought any ensuing dialogue might be of interest, particularly to the degree a comparison to Nadi tradition is warranted. Thanks for your time - all my best. Sincerely, Jesse In a message dated 2/20/2003 8:27:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, martin.gansten (AT) teol (DOT) lu.se writes: color:black;background:white"> margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"> background:white">Subj: [sidereal] Tieh Pan Shen Shu Date:2/20/2003 8:27:05 AM Eastern Standard Time martin.gansten (AT) teol (DOT) lu.se font-family:Arial;color:blue;background:white"> Reply-to:sidereal To:sidereal Received from Internet: I have tried this question on several academic lists to no avail; let us see if SA list members are better informed... I am looking for information on a Chinese form of divination known as Tieh Pan Shen Shu, or 'iron plate divine number', which is supposedly quite similar to Nadi or Bhrigusamhita readings. Based on a client's birth data, certain numeric sequences are generated, corresponding to numbered sentences in ready-made divination books. These sentences are (again supposedly) quite specific, e.g.: 'Your mother is 29 years older than you', or 'Your father is an army officer'. If members know of any source of information on this practice, scholarly or otherwise (preferably printed sources in European languages), or have any idea as to where such might be sought, I would be very grateful to hear of it. An Internet search yielded a single hit, which was merely an advertisement of TPSS classes for 'advanced students' of Feng Shui at the School of Chinese Metaphysics (apparently based in Los Angeles, Washington DC, and Montreal): http://www.fengshuisos.com/ Martin Visit the Sidereal Astrology Disussion Group at: sidereal Your use of is subject to color:black"> font-family:Arial;color:black"> "Courier New";color:black"> || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Attachment: (image/gif) image001.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image002.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image003.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image004.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image005.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image006.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image007.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image008.gif [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Hello Swee and Jesse : If I am not mistaken Jesse was not refering to the "tian pan", which is what you explained perfectly in your mail but to the "tian pan shen shu" which means "Iron Plate". This kind of divination is shrouded with mystery, and there is a lot of tales about it. Some say there are by now only 6 persons knowing how to use it (all presumably living in Hong Kong), and when one of them dies, somebody else has to be initiated. When I asked Joseph Yu a famous Feng Shui Master about it, he answered that it was a mere mathematical trick : you are asked a couple a questions and you have to answer yes or no. When the fortune teller is satisfied he can read your past and future very accurately. Hence the comparison with nadis lectures. On the other hand, some other also well known Feng Shui Masters areon the verge to teach it. One of them is Peter Leung which usually gives lectures in Mumbai on FS technics, but when i inquired about it, he answered that the course would not be ready before 2004 (probably because of problems of translation). As far as I know "Tian Pan Shen Shu" is rather a numerological system based on Tai shuan jing, which is a variation of the Yi Jing. Instead of using trigrams, it uses tetragrams (81) instead of the 64 hexagrams of the Yi Jing. Some scholars say that this technic was invented during the Han Dynasty, some others pretend that the famous Shao Yong is the author of this technic. To answer the question, this has little to do with astrology, and the only link with nadis is the way of proceeding with yes/no questions. Kijiye to all those who are not interested in this off-topic thread. Shubh ratri. Eric. -----Message d'origine-----De : Swee Chan [swee (AT) coppernet (DOT) zm]Envoyé : vendredi 21 février 2003 15:38À : vedic astrologyObjet : RE: [vedic astrology] Fwd: [sidereal] Tieh Pan Shen Shu Jaya Jagannatha Dear Jesse, I replied to you privately, but my mail was sent back. This is not meant to be a lesson, but will give you a fair indication of what it all means. But please no further questions on the subject. (Yes, I am also a member Ken Lee’s list, but am set on reading mail from web; haven’t the time to even peek at what’s being discussed so far.). Lou Pan In ancient China, the common man would use the farmer's calendar of 360 days while the ruling classes such as the imperial astronomer/astrologer, meteorological officer, and timekeeper used the astronomical year of 365.25 days. They discovered that the most influential heavenly bodies besides the sun and moon were the Northern Stars. The stars: "Plough" or "Big Dipper" and Polaris gave the variations in the year and ones direction on land or at sea. Polaris in particular was the central hub on which all of the other constellations revolved, finding that the handle of the plough points due East on the Spring Equinox, South for the Summer Solstice, West Autumnal Equinox and North on the Winter Solstice. In its transitional phase from one point to another, it indicates the 24 seasons in the Chinese Agricultural Calendar. So it provides a natural and dynamic cycle of evolution, with one star in particular being prevalent at any given moment in time. The astronomer stands facing south and observe the celestial objects that will cross the north-south meridian in their daily motion from east to west known as meridian transits. The northern celestial polar region is known as the Central Pool of Heaven/Celestial Lake. This houses the needle of the Lou Pan. The inside plate/Heaven Plate contains the markings of the Lou Pan and defines where the ladle piece of the compass rests. The Heavenly plate rests on the outer square plate, known as the Earth Plate where all the markings are. The red Cross grid are the 2 red strings or cross markings on a Luo Pan which are used to read the correct direction and meanings. These were also used to correctly time the solstices. The Heavens will always move, and hence the Earth plate will always remain in the same place. The square plate is divided into 9 main squares (9x9=81 in all). In the center, no characters are put there because it is considered the abode of the divine (like Brahmasthana). The element here is Big Earth. Thus we will get Heaven Chi and Earthly Chi. Use the principles of the Four Pillars which is based on an individual's birth year, month, date and time to predict the rise and fall of luck in a person's life. Five elements: basic elements that used in Feng Shui to describe the characters of objects under study. Any object, including time, usually contains more than one element. Earthy branch never moves, but the stems (elements) will change with time. In a period that five elements are not balanced, significant misfortune could occur. This method employs the 8 characters/Four Pillars. The 8 characters are also based on the 8 directions or the 8 gates of entry or exit. The sub to this are the 12 branches to denote the seasons. Hence the Lou Pan will divine the following: For the year, month, day and the hourly stem is the particular one used on a daily basis for solving problems and other divinatory purposes. There are tables to refer to, but I am giving an example below of how the chart should look. e.g., thus: Choose the hourly gate and the strongest stem for advising the change of fortune. Check up on your reading on the Chinese almanac where the nadi readings are indicated. All the relevant branches and stems make up the I Ching. For this, you can use the yarrow sticks. Best wishes, 12.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" Swee swee (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net http://www.brihaspati.net/ 12.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com [jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com]Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 3:59 PMswee (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net; vedic astrologySubject: [vedic astrology] Fwd: [sidereal] Tieh Pan Shen Shu Dear Swee,I received this on another list, and thought I would pass it along to you (as it's more likely than not you could send this gentleman in the right direction -- though perhaps not as to reliable sources in European languages, if these don't exist ). If you've received this already, please excuse the duplication beyond this copying to the vedic astrology list and you. I've copied the former as I thought any ensuing dialogue might be of interest, particularly to the degree a comparison to Nadi tradition is warranted.Thanks for your time - all my best.Sincerely,JesseIn a message dated 2/20/2003 8:27:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, martin.gansten (AT) teol (DOT) lu.se writes: Subj: [sidereal] Tieh Pan Shen Shu Date:2/20/2003 8:27:05 AM Eastern Standard Timemartin.gansten (AT) teol (DOT) lu.seReply-to:siderealTo:siderealReceived from Internet: I have tried this question on several academic lists to no avail; let ussee if SA list members are better informed... I am looking for informationon a Chinese form of divination known as Tieh Pan Shen Shu, or 'iron platedivine number', which is supposedly quite similar to Nadi or Bhrigusamhitareadings. Based on a client's birth data, certain numeric sequences aregenerated, corresponding to numbered sentences in ready-made divinationbooks. These sentences are (again supposedly) quite specific, e.g.: 'Yourmother is 29 years older than you', or 'Your father is an army officer'.If members know of any source of information on this practice, scholarly orotherwise (preferably printed sources in European languages), or have anyidea as to where such might be sought, I would be very grateful to hear ofit. An Internet search yielded a single hit, which was merely anadvertisement of TPSS classes for 'advanced students' of Feng Shui at theSchool of Chinese Metaphysics (apparently based in Los Angeles, WashingtonDC, and Montreal):http://www.fengshuisos.com/MartinVisit the Sidereal Astrology Disussion Group at:siderealYour use of Groups is subject to Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Attachment: (image/gif) image001.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image002.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image003.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image004.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image005.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image006.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image007.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) image008.gif [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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