Birth Time & cutting a nevel

May 18, 2003

Jaya JagannathDear Rema,

This is really interesting. I would like to have a look in your chart. Please

post me personally. For such cases also and also for cases of still born birth,

I would take the cutting of the umbilical cord. This becomes a problem when you

take first cry or first breath or something like that as the time of birth,

where the birth time cannot be found as the baby didn't cry.

Best Wishes

Sarajit

-

"Rema Menon" <remamenon >

Monday, May 19, 2003 2:03 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel

> Namaste Sarajitji and Ramapriyaji,> > In continuation with this discussion I

have a question> for you.> What if a baby is born, do not cry, is blue, is>

separated from the mothers body, the umblical cord is> cut and since found not

breathing, that means dead,> set aside as dead, and later after 15 minutes or

so.> resumes the color of living, starts moving and crying.> > > What is the

actual time of this baby's starting of> life...the emerging from the mothers

body, cutting of> the umblical cord or first breath(cry)?> The baby in question

is/was me.> > Thanks, Rema> > > > --- Ramapriya D <hubli (AT) hotpop (DOT) com> wrote:> >

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a> > nevelDear Sarajit,> > > > My

accent was intended to keep the whole concept> > simple; it perhaps became too

simple, as you say > > > > Let me try another. Say a lady delivers a baby

which> > is dead on arrival. Would or wouldn't you consider> > it born? I think

I'd look obtuse if on the grounds> > of it not having shrieked I argued that it

wasn't> > born at all. It was born but was born a lemon; too> > bad. And when

was it born? When it physically> > separated from the inside of its mom. That

was my> > point, notwithstanding it was poorly made > > > > Warm regards,> >

> > Rama> > hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com> > > > - > >

Sarajit Poddar > > vedic astrology > > Sunday,

May 18, 2003 5:53 PM> > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time &> >

cutting a nevel> > > > > > Jaya Jagannath> > Dear Rama,> > > > The

logic is brilliant, but not of much utility> > for Jyotish sake. The definition

you gave is again> > is given not taking Jyotish in mind... Isn't it...> >

Definitions are something which we define, based on> > whatever it should be;

its not the definition which> > define what it should be. Yup for a common man

your> > definition of birth would suffice. However, what I> > might say here is

that, Cars don't have placenta> > otherwise if it has any, then obviously you

couldn't> > have driven it to your home, as long as the car was> > connected to

the delivery showroom with it.> > > > Best Wishes> > Sarajit> > -----

Original Message ----- > > Sanjay Rath > > To:

vedic astrology > > Sunday, May 18, 2003 7:37 PM> >

RE: [vedic astrology] Birth Time &> > cutting a nevel> > > > Om

Brihaspataye namah> > Dear Rama> > Simply brilliant analogy..there are

somethigns> > God will always keep in His control.> > With best wishes> >

Sanjay Rath> > > > > =====> Rema Menon> > >

> The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.>

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Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info:

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May 19, 2003

dear sri. chandrasekharji,

one more doctor is on this list who is a well known surgeon from thane, mumbai.

he is an astrologer also and has developed astrology software. i fell he can

also comment on this issue. his details are:

Web Address:http://astrokundali.com/E-mail Addresses:karekar (AT) astrokundali (DOT) comkarekar (AT) vsnl (DOT) com

with regards,

t. v. rao

-

Chandrashekhar

vedic astrology

Monday, May 19, 2003 1:13 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel

Dr. Dilip Banerjee,

Would you please coment whether what I have said about cutting of umbilical cord

and detachment of placenta is correct or wrong. This would enable this

discussion to go on right track again.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

-

Sarbani Sarkar

vedic astrology

Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:52 PM

RE: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel

Dear Candrashekharji,

Sanjayji's shishya, Dr. Dilip Bannerjee, a practising paediatrician, and an old member of SJC!

Best regards,

Sarbani

Chandrashekhar [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk]Sent:

Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:53 AMvedic astrologySubject: Re:

[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel

Dear Visti,

When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This

yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding.

I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the

umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate.

I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not

solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human

variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any

reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any

Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody

really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then

surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner

would allow this to happen.

However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species,

perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position.

I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is

clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

-

Visti Larsen

vedic astrology

Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel

|Hare Rama Krishna|

Dear Chandrashekhar,

The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't

cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe

and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that

they haven't been born? No.

The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow

of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord

crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned

cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted

the same.

Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana:

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org

-

Chandrashekhar

vedic astrology

Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel

Dear Arthur,

Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time

of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is

possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen

parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible

Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation

acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated

as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine

the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child

will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial

election of time of birth could be applied to that event.

The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by

corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies

for first time) has to be the time of birth.

This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying

principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be

taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too

related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it

would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question.

Other learned members might have different views and logic.

Chandrashekhar.

-

Arthur Smith

vedic astrology

Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM

Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel

Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a

substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and

the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron

17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote:

Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries

out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar.

- Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru>

Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri

Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January

17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare

Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there

was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that

birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast

time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour.

Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting

nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives:

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May 19, 2003

|Hare Rama Krishna|

Dear Chandrashekhar,

Good then, no hard feelings. Yes i did access the link and took a hard look.

There is some agreement on waiting for the pulsing of the blood to stop in the

umbelical cord, but this is done by the doctor putting clamps on the same.

But we must define this propperly. See the basis of taking such a time as the

birth-time is to see the childs independant existance in the world.

Lets try to list out the reasons for the various theories:

-First Cry

Here the idea is that the child having acquired breathe of its own or life is

now able to define their own existance. Some say this is the time when the Atma

enters the child, and this would give them a sound reasoning for terminating the

pregnancy before birth and hence the question of killing would be no more...

This is wrong! Fact is that no life can exist without the Atma. The Atma enters

the male before the coitus and resides in him until the seed has left him. From

that point on the Atma then resides in the woman. If the Atma had not entered

the man prior to coitus, then he would literally be shooting blanks.

-First Breathe

This is linked to first cry, hence refer above.

-Leaving the womb

Ramapriya voiced the opinion of taking the time when the child has left the

womb. When the child has done so it is still attached to the mother through the

umbelical cord. This attachment continues to ensure the babies safety through

blood and oxygen and the baby cannot enter an independant existance. However

there could be a time between the time of leaving the mother and cutting of the

umbelical cord.

-Cutting of umbelical cord

The principle of drawing charts is to see when the independant existance occurs.

The Adhana Chakra, also known as the Nisheka Chakra is the first chart drawn for

the child to come. This Chakra is drawn from the time the seed leaves the stem

as per Jaimini. This chart confirms the fact that there is an Atma before birth

and hence the birthtime itself is only a chart to see the activities this Atma

is going to get involved in, in its current existance. The time when the Baby

detaches from the mother is then the chosen time for seeing the existance in

this life. Similarly when the Atma leaves the body at death that chart is drawn

to see the Atma's existance after death.

Hence independant existance of the atma in its new body, is the focal point of the chart.

Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana:

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org

May 19, 2003

dear chanderskekarji

i agree with ur argument . it is logical that the

child does not choose the time of crying. btw i did not cry when the

u-cord was cut i was placed on the ventilator . now i will try to

determine the time from my mother.

also the great malayali saint sri narayana guru is

said to never cried for days after his birth (in mid 1800) but was

breathing normally!!!!

with care and respect

ajoy

May 19, 2003

Dear T V Rao,

If you know the good doctor , would you please seek his opinion by sending the

mail to him? I would be oblidged. This would also clarify some medical details.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

-

tvrao_agd

vedic astrology

Monday, May 19, 2003 5:42 PM