Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Dear Sanjay Rath, Hare Rama Krsna! Jaya Jagannath! >So, even in charts which have "RECORDED" birth times, do the necessary >retification of Kunda and Pranapada, at least the latter is a must. Though you have been stating the time of cutting the umbilical cord is the right time of birth, I had some doubt about this. Can we understand it like this that when child starts 'breathing' on his own, that means, his prana or life air becomes seperate from the mother's, that this is the correct time of birth? That would be why we rectify with pranapada. Can you explain a little more on kunda rectification? I understand it should be that kunda must be in trines to Moon or Nama nakshatra. Is there maybe more to this rectification? E.g. in my chart it doesn't seem to work out. Your sishya, Dhira Krsna dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Hare Rama Krishna Dear Dhira, Prana has nothing todo with breathing itself, it represents the lifeforce that is present in the individual. When one inhales the lifeforce of the individual gets rejuvenated, but the breathing itself isn't the cause of this. Actually the lifeforce is allready in the individual before they are born. Now which being has been born is our question? And this will help us discern the lifeforce present. For humans the pranapada should be in trines or 7th from Moon. For Dogs or horses, this would be Mercury instead. This is the correct understanding of Prana. How to rectify using Kunda, craves understanding of Tattwa and the union between Shiva and Parvati. I have written an article on Kunda rectification in the coming issue of the Jyotish Digest. Best wishesVisti---Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgBrihat Parasara Hora Shastra: vedic astrologybphs.zipiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html - Dhira Krsna BCS vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 9:36 PM [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Sanjay Rath,Hare Rama Krsna!Jaya Jagannath!>So, even in charts which have "RECORDED" birth times, do the necessary>retification of Kunda and Pranapada, at least the latter is a must.Though you have been stating the time of cutting the umbilical cord is theright time of birth, I had some doubt about this. Can we understand itlike this that when child starts 'breathing' on his own, that means, hisprana or life air becomes seperate from the mother's, that this is thecorrect time of birth? That would be why we rectify with pranapada.Can you explain a little more on kunda rectification? I understand itshould be that kunda must be in trines to Moon or Nama nakshatra. Is theremaybe more to this rectification? E.g. in my chart it doesn't seem to workout.Your sishya,Dhira Krsna dasaArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Om Gurave Namah Dear Dhira Krsna, Add Lagna to that option of Nama & Chandra. This is something I have learnt very recently. Also, we need to get a beter grasp of the tatva and vi-tatva. Harihara (Prasna Marga) has just given an excellent method of the Kunda correction. Since it relates to the predominant tatwa of the chart at the moment of birth, this has to be more sensitive than the gross method outlined therein. Perhaps there is more to this than what catches the eye. At the feet of Guru Pandita Kasinatha, I remain, Sanjay Rath Mail: 71 Vasant Apartments, Mayur Vihar Phase-1, New Delhi 110091, India Tel: +91-11-2713201; SJC Web pages: http://.org; Personal Web: http://srath.com - "Dhira Krsna BCS" <Dhira.Krsna.BCS <vedic astrology> Tuesday, January 21, 2003 2:06 AM [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel > Dear Sanjay Rath, > > Hare Rama Krsna! > > Jaya Jagannath! > > >So, even in charts which have "RECORDED" birth times, do the necessary > >retification of Kunda and Pranapada, at least the latter is a must. > > Though you have been stating the time of cutting the umbilical cord is the > right time of birth, I had some doubt about this. Can we understand it > like this that when child starts 'breathing' on his own, that means, his > prana or life air becomes seperate from the mother's, that this is the > correct time of birth? That would be why we rectify with pranapada. > > Can you explain a little more on kunda rectification? I understand it > should be that kunda must be in trines to Moon or Nama nakshatra. Is there > maybe more to this rectification? E.g. in my chart it doesn't seem to work > out. > > Your sishya, > Dhira Krsna dasa > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Dear Visti, When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Dear Visti, In continuation to when umbilical cord is cut, I am giving you a Link to information on umbilical cord , time of its cutting and various practives. The link is of chapter of a recommended set of practices so from there you can go forward and backwards and find out whether electional cutting of cord is possible or not. Whether cord crystalizes or not would also be abudantly clear there. http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/MSM_98_4/MSM_98_4_chapter2.en.html Being a world health organisation link , I hope none questions its authenticity. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Om Namo Gurubrihaspathaye, Dear Visti and Chandrasekhar, Food or Ahara is for keep this body alive. We takes food in many different forms such as through blood before cut the code, form of liquid after take the birth, and form of bread later. When we all tired, the glass of juice add some energy to the body as soon as it goes in to the stomach, need not to wait hours to burn it. Fact is every breath create many million particles or cells in this body as soon as you breath in. So our breathing too is ahara (food) to this body and only difference is the food comes after taking the form of air. First breath is nothing but taking food. But it is not the start of consuming food. So breathing or crying cannot be the actual birth. Hope this help you. Karu Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Jaya JagannathDear Karu, Can you explain more, what you are willing to say. However, I second Visti and you that crying cannot be the basis for birth on one more basis. What makes the baby to have an independent existence and not as an organ of the mother? It is the severence of the connection of umbilical cord to the mother's body. Best Wishes Sarajit - Karu vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:51 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Om Namo Gurubrihaspathaye, Dear Visti and Chandrasekhar, Food or Ahara is for keep this body alive. We takes food in many different forms such as through blood before cut the code, form of liquid after take the birth, and form of bread later. When we all tired, the glass of juice add some energy to the body as soon as it goes in to the stomach, need not to wait hours to burn it. Fact is every breath create many million particles or cells in this body as soon as you breath in. So our breathing too is ahara (food) to this body and only difference is the food comes after taking the form of air. First breath is nothing but taking food. But it is not the start of consuming food. So breathing or crying cannot be the actual birth. Hope this help you. Karu Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, Our Sanjay Rath of this list is said to not cry when he was born. He's still alive and kicking as far as i can tell. The umbilical cord starts by stopping the flow of fluids between mother and baby. When this stops, the outer layers begin to crystalize, and the cord is cut. The whole umbilical cord cannot crystalize at once, but due to the exposure of air and lack of liquid surrounding it starts to dry up. The doctor waits for the the pulsing to stop and then cuts. This discussion has been held several times on this list, in which Sanjay Rath has also given his view. I would recommend that you search for his view in the archives, he has written a detailed assesment. If not then please acquire the workshop cd's from Hyderabad, where this discussion was also held. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:22 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Karu, Carrying the analogy further, would last breath mean cessation of partaking food and not death? Chandrashekhar. - Karu vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:21 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Om Namo Gurubrihaspathaye, Dear Visti and Chandrasekhar, Food or Ahara is for keep this body alive. We takes food in many different forms such as through blood before cut the code, form of liquid after take the birth, and form of bread later. When we all tired, the glass of juice add some energy to the body as soon as it goes in to the stomach, need not to wait hours to burn it. Fact is every breath create many million particles or cells in this body as soon as you breath in. So our breathing too is ahara (food) to this body and only difference is the food comes after taking the form of air. First breath is nothing but taking food. But it is not the start of consuming food. So breathing or crying cannot be the actual birth. Hope this help you. Karu Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Sarajit, If I may put in my two cents worth. You will find that should umbilical cord be not cut then the placenta can come out and the baby looses contact with mother, as you call it. In some natural birth practices this is done. You may like to access WHO site on reprodictive technique and find out the veracity of my statement. I have sent a link in Visti's mail and you may explore it to find out what is the reality. Again if a child's loosing contact with mother's body is to be taken as the time of birth, then it would have to be when placenta detaches from the uterus, which happens much before the baby's egress. There is no method by which this could be ascertained. At the most you can have an approximation by the time a lady breaks first water. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Sarajit Poddar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:39 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Jaya JagannathDear Karu, Can you explain more, what you are willing to say. However, I second Visti and you that crying cannot be the basis for birth on one more basis. What makes the baby to have an independent existence and not as an organ of the mother? It is the severence of the connection of umbilical cord to the mother's body. Best Wishes Sarajit - Karu vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:51 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Om Namo Gurubrihaspathaye, Dear Visti and Chandrasekhar, Food or Ahara is for keep this body alive. We takes food in many different forms such as through blood before cut the code, form of liquid after take the birth, and form of bread later. When we all tired, the glass of juice add some energy to the body as soon as it goes in to the stomach, need not to wait hours to burn it. Fact is every breath create many million particles or cells in this body as soon as you breath in. So our breathing too is ahara (food) to this body and only difference is the food comes after taking the form of air. First breath is nothing but taking food. But it is not the start of consuming food. So breathing or crying cannot be the actual birth. Hope this help you. Karu Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Visti, If you have read my initial mail., I have mentioned that this is my opinion and others may have different opinions. You will also observe that I am not questioning why some hold cutting of umbilical cord to be the time of birth. I am aware that one of the texts (Phaladeepika if I am not wrong) does mention cutting of umbilical cord to be taken as time of birth. In response to your mail, I was just pointing out the physiological phenomenon as it happens. I have also sent link to WHO site so that you can verify yourself. You will also observe that Shri Sanjayji has not yet intervened and is probably observing the arguments unfolding.This is a sign of a great mind which, while not tolerating wrong theories being advanced; continues its search for the truth. To continue to do so after having aquired great knowledge oneself shows that besides reading the scriptures it has understood its meaning. I am certain sanjayji is also well versed in Raja Bhartrihari's Neetishataka. If my putting up my views is causing any hurt to you, I am certain you will pardon an ignorant person. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:06 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, Our Sanjay Rath of this list is said to not cry when he was born. He's still alive and kicking as far as i can tell. The umbilical cord starts by stopping the flow of fluids between mother and baby. When this stops, the outer layers begin to crystalize, and the cord is cut. The whole umbilical cord cannot crystalize at once, but due to the exposure of air and lack of liquid surrounding it starts to dry up. The doctor waits for the the pulsing to stop and then cuts. This discussion has been held several times on this list, in which Sanjay Rath has also given his view. I would recommend that you search for his view in the archives, he has written a detailed assesment. If not then please acquire the workshop cd's from Hyderabad, where this discussion was also held. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:22 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Candrashekharji, Sanjayji's shishya, Dr. Dilip Bannerjee, a practising paediatrician, and an old member of SJC! Best regards, Sarbani Chandrashekhar [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk]Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:53 AMvedic astrologySubject: Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, No emotions involved so far. If you feel attacked personally, then i'm sorry. All i'm doing is putting your oppinions under scrutiny. Maybe Sanjay is observing how his students deal with the subject before he intervenes. At some his students are going to be teaching others without his scrutiny, so for now he maybe reaping the results of his teachings. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, If you have read my initial mail., I have mentioned that this is my opinion and others may have different opinions. You will also observe that I am not questioning why some hold cutting of umbilical cord to be the time of birth. I am aware that one of the texts (Phaladeepika if I am not wrong) does mention cutting of umbilical cord to be taken as time of birth. In response to your mail, I was just pointing out the physiological phenomenon as it happens. I have also sent link to WHO site so that you can verify yourself. You will also observe that Shri Sanjayji has not yet intervened and is probably observing the arguments unfolding.This is a sign of a great mind which, while not tolerating wrong theories being advanced; continues its search for the truth. To continue to do so after having aquired great knowledge oneself shows that besides reading the scriptures it has understood its meaning. I am certain sanjayji is also well versed in Raja Bhartrihari's Neetishataka. If my putting up my views is causing any hurt to you, I am certain you will pardon an ignorant person. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:06 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, Our Sanjay Rath of this list is said to not cry when he was born. He's still alive and kicking as far as i can tell. The umbilical cord starts by stopping the flow of fluids between mother and baby. When this stops, the outer layers begin to crystalize, and the cord is cut. The whole umbilical cord cannot crystalize at once, but due to the exposure of air and lack of liquid surrounding it starts to dry up. The doctor waits for the the pulsing to stop and then cuts. This discussion has been held several times on this list, in which Sanjay Rath has also given his view. I would recommend that you search for his view in the archives, he has written a detailed assesment. If not then please acquire the workshop cd's from Hyderabad, where this discussion was also held. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:22 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... 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May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Chandrashekhar, Visti and Sarajit, Despite battling with thoughts like a blue baby and all that, I confess to holding this view deep down for very long that the cutting of the cord should constitute the moment of birth. I don't quite think so now. Most scriptures refer to the child "being born", not about about its first breath or whatever else. Period. So why not just keep it simple and not bother about anything else? Let me give a preposterous analogy to substantiate what I'm trying to say. When I buy a car, it's actually mine when it rolls out of the showroom. That's the moment, isn't it? Too bad if the thing doesn't come to life when I crank up the key the first time around. Blame the mechanic who did the pre-delivery inspection or anyone else for its stuttering first steps, but the car is mine already. Why don't we deem birth similarly? The baby is born when physical separation between it and mom occurs. If it doesn't / can't cry, too bad but it has already been born. I'm not a gynec but I think the placenta gets disconnected from the mom's uterus along with the birth, while its physical expulsion occurs a wee later on, so even though the cord is attached to the placenta, the latter is in itself free. One last frivolous attempt to prove my point -- point your browsers to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=birth, kill the pop-up and read on... the first definition says that birth is, "The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother". That's all. I don't see no mention of inhalations, bawls or frolic. Is that QED or... ) Warm regards, Ramapriya hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:55 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, If you have read my initial mail., I have mentioned that this is my opinion and others may have different opinions. You will also observe that I am not questioning why some hold cutting of umbilical cord to be the time of birth. I am aware that one of the texts (Phaladeepika if I am not wrong) does mention cutting of umbilical cord to be taken as time of birth. In response to your mail, I was just pointing out the physiological phenomenon as it happens. I have also sent link to WHO site so that you can verify yourself. You will also observe that Shri Sanjayji has not yet intervened and is probably observing the arguments unfolding.This is a sign of a great mind which, while not tolerating wrong theories being advanced; continues its search for the truth. To continue to do so after having aquired great knowledge oneself shows that besides reading the scriptures it has understood its meaning. I am certain sanjayji is also well versed in Raja Bhartrihari's Neetishataka. If my putting up my views is causing any hurt to you, I am certain you will pardon an ignorant person. Regards, Chandrashekhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Jaya JagannathDear Rama, The logic is brilliant, but not of much utility for Jyotish sake. The definition you gave is again is given not taking Jyotish in mind... Isn't it... Definitions are something which we define, based on whatever it should be; its not the definition which define what it should be. Yup for a common man your definition of birth would suffice. However, what I might say here is that, Cars don't have placenta otherwise if it has any, then obviously you couldn't have driven it to your home, as long as the car was connected to the delivery showroom with it. Best Wishes Sarajit - Sanjay Rath vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 7:37 PM RE: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Om Brihaspataye namah Dear Rama Simply brilliant analogy..there are somethigns God will always keep in His control. With best wishes Sanjay Rath --------------------------- H-5, B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India +91-674-2436871 http://srath.com --------------------------- Ramapriya D [hubli (AT) hotpop (DOT) com]Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 3:11 PMvedic astrologySubject: Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandrashekhar, Visti and Sarajit, Despite battling with thoughts like a blue baby and all that, I confess to holding this view deep down for very long that the cutting of the cord should constitute the moment of birth. I don't quite think so now. Most scriptures refer to the child "being born", not about about its first breath or whatever else. Period. So why not just keep it simple and not bother about anything else? Let me give a preposterous analogy to substantiate what I'm trying to say. When I buy a car, it's actually mine when it rolls out of the showroom. That's the moment, isn't it? Too bad if the thing doesn't come to life when I crank up the key the first time around. Blame the mechanic who did the pre-delivery inspection or anyone else for its stuttering first steps, but the car is mine already. Why don't we deem birth similarly? The baby is born when physical separation between it and mom occurs. If it doesn't / can't cry, too bad but it has already been born. I'm not a gynec but I think the placenta gets disconnected from the mom's uterus along with the birth, while its physical expulsion occurs a wee later on, so even though the cord is attached to the placenta, the latter is in itself free. One last frivolous attempt to prove my point -- point your browsers to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=birth, kill the pop-up and read on... the first definition says that birth is, "The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother". That's all. I don't see no mention of inhalations, bawls or frolic. Is that QED or... ) Warm regards, Ramapriya hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:55 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, If you have read my initial mail., I have mentioned that this is my opinion and others may have different opinions. You will also observe that I am not questioning why some hold cutting of umbilical cord to be the time of birth. I am aware that one of the texts (Phaladeepika if I am not wrong) does mention cutting of umbilical cord to be taken as time of birth. In response to your mail, I was just pointing out the physiological phenomenon as it happens. I have also sent link to WHO site so that you can verify yourself. You will also observe that Shri Sanjayji has not yet intervened and is probably observing the arguments unfolding.This is a sign of a great mind which, while not tolerating wrong theories being advanced; continues its search for the truth. To continue to do so after having aquired great knowledge oneself shows that besides reading the scriptures it has understood its meaning. I am certain sanjayji is also well versed in Raja Bhartrihari's Neetishataka. If my putting up my views is causing any hurt to you, I am certain you will pardon an ignorant person. Regards, ChandrashekharArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Sarajit, My accent was intended to keep the whole concept simple; it perhaps became too simple, as you say Let me try another. Say a lady delivers a baby which is dead on arrival. Would or wouldn't you consider it born? I think I'd look obtuse if on the grounds of it not having shrieked I argued that it wasn't born at all. It was born but was born a lemon; too bad. And when was it born? When it physically separated from the inside of its mom. That was my point, notwithstanding it was poorly made Warm regards, Rama hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com - Sarajit Poddar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 5:53 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Jaya JagannathDear Rama, The logic is brilliant, but not of much utility for Jyotish sake. The definition you gave is again is given not taking Jyotish in mind... Isn't it... Definitions are something which we define, based on whatever it should be; its not the definition which define what it should be. Yup for a common man your definition of birth would suffice. However, what I might say here is that, Cars don't have placenta otherwise if it has any, then obviously you couldn't have driven it to your home, as long as the car was connected to the delivery showroom with it. Best Wishes Sarajit - Sanjay Rath vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 7:37 PM RE: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Om Brihaspataye namah Dear Rama Simply brilliant analogy..there are somethigns God will always keep in His control. With best wishes Sanjay Rath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Jyotisha, Pranams to my Guru Visti Ji and all the SJC Gurus for all the wonderful instruction. I must confess my knowledge of Jyotish is very small. However, I am professionally familiar with the birthing process. 1)Physicians clamp the umbilical cord once the baby is clear of the mother and then cut it. 2)In modern practice they do not wait for the blood in the umbilical cord to crystallize/coagulate/clot. However, in principle they could wait as must be the case in farm animals and wild animals. 3)After the umbilical cord is cut hormonal changes in the mother cause the blood supply feeding the placenta to close down and the placenta can safely fall off the womb/uterus. 4)The placenta can not separate from the womb/uterus after the "water breaks" since it can take many hours between the time the water breaks and the baby is actually born and breathing on its own. Without oxygen from the mothers blood supply in the womb/uterus thebaby will die. 5)Essentially, the baby is an extension of the mother until the umbilical cord is cut becase he is dependent on her breath for life. Respectfully, Miguel vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar" <boxdel> wrote: > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelDear Visti, > If you have read my initial mail., I have mentioned that this is my opinion and others may have different opinions. You will also observe that I am not questioning why some hold cutting of umbilical cord to be the time of birth. I am aware that one of the texts (Phaladeepika if I am not wrong) does mention cutting of umbilical cord to be taken as time of birth. In response to your mail, I was just pointing out the physiological phenomenon as it happens. I have also sent link to WHO site so that you can verify yourself. > You will also observe that Shri Sanjayji has not yet intervened and is probably observing the arguments unfolding.This is a sign of a great mind which, while not tolerating wrong theories being advanced; continues its search for the truth. To continue to do so after having aquired great knowledge oneself shows that besides reading the scriptures it has understood its meaning. I am certain sanjayji is also well versed in Raja Bhartrihari's Neetishataka. > If my putting up my views is causing any hurt to you, I am certain you will pardon an ignorant person. > Regards, > Chandrashekhar. > - > Visti Larsen > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:06 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel > > > |Hare Rama Krishna| > Dear Chandrashekhar, > Our Sanjay Rath of this list is said to not cry when he was born. He's still alive and kicking as far as i can tell. > The umbilical cord starts by stopping the flow of fluids between mother and baby. When this stops, the outer layers begin to crystalize, and the cord is cut. The whole umbilical cord cannot crystalize at once, but due to the exposure of air and lack of liquid surrounding it starts to dry up. The doctor waits for the the pulsing to stop and then cuts. > > This discussion has been held several times on this list, in which Sanjay Rath has also given his view. I would recommend that you search for his view in the archives, he has written a detailed assesment. If not then please acquire the workshop cd's from Hyderabad, where this discussion was also held. > > Best wishes > Visti > --- > Sri Jagannath Center: http://.org > Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org > iTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org > - > Chandrashekhar > vedic astrology > Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:22 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel > > > Dear Visti, > When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. > I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. > I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. > However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. > I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. > Regards, > Chandrashekhar. > - > Visti Larsen > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel > > > |Hare Rama Krishna| > Dear Chandrashekhar, > The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel- cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. > > The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. > > Best wishes > Visti > --- > Sri Jagannath Center: http://.org > Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org > iTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org > - > Chandrashekhar > vedic astrology > Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel > > > Dear Arthur, > Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. > The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. > This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. > Other learned members might have different views and logic. > Chandrashekhar. > > - > Arthur Smith > vedic astrology > Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel > > > Dear Chandramukha & Chandrasekhar > > The question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references? > > Arthur > > > > on 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel wrote: > > > Dear Chandramukha Das, > I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath. > Chandrashekhar. > > - > Chandramukha das <chandra@m...> > Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic- astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> > Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM > [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel > > Hare Krishna! > Dear Jyotisha, > We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubt > concerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birth > time is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in the > last time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cutting > nevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning of > birth time from cutting nevel? > > -- > Your sishya, > Chandramukha das > > > > > > Group info: vedic- astrology/info.html > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Terms of Service <> . > > > Sponsor > > > > Group info: vedic- astrology/info.html > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Terms of Service <> . > > > > > > > Group info: vedic- astrology/info.html > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Group info: vedic- astrology/info.html > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Group info: vedic- astrology/info.html > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Group info: vedic- astrology/info.html > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Namaste Sarajitji and Ramapriyaji, In continuation with this discussion I have a question for you. What if a baby is born, do not cry, is blue, is separated from the mothers body, the umblical cord is cut and since found not breathing, that means dead, set aside as dead, and later after 15 minutes or so. resumes the color of living, starts moving and crying. What is the actual time of this baby's starting of life...the emerging from the mothers body, cutting of the umblical cord or first breath(cry)? The baby in question is/was me. Thanks, Rema --- Ramapriya D <hubli wrote: > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a > nevelDear Sarajit, > > My accent was intended to keep the whole concept > simple; it perhaps became too simple, as you say > > Let me try another. Say a lady delivers a baby which > is dead on arrival. Would or wouldn't you consider > it born? I think I'd look obtuse if on the grounds > of it not having shrieked I argued that it wasn't > born at all. It was born but was born a lemon; too > bad. And when was it born? When it physically > separated from the inside of its mom. That was my > point, notwithstanding it was poorly made > > Warm regards, > > Rama > hubli > > - > Sarajit Poddar > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 5:53 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & > cutting a nevel > > > Jaya Jagannath > Dear Rama, > > The logic is brilliant, but not of much utility > for Jyotish sake. The definition you gave is again > is given not taking Jyotish in mind... Isn't it... > Definitions are something which we define, based on > whatever it should be; its not the definition which > define what it should be. Yup for a common man your > definition of birth would suffice. However, what I > might say here is that, Cars don't have placenta > otherwise if it has any, then obviously you couldn't > have driven it to your home, as long as the car was > connected to the delivery showroom with it. > > Best Wishes > Sarajit > - > Sanjay Rath > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 7:37 PM > RE: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & > cutting a nevel > > Om Brihaspataye namah > Dear Rama > Simply brilliant analogy..there are somethigns > God will always keep in His control. > With best wishes > Sanjay Rath > ===== Rema Menon The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Chandramukhadas, I would add here that even in domestic animals procedure of cutting of umbilical cord is electional. In wild it is broken by mother if carnivore and when the herbivore stand then the pressure of the baby detaches it. If some one has bred dogs (I think Laxmi does) he/she will confirm that sometimes placenta does come out with the pup. Even in cases where for some reason harmones are used to induce pains this can happen even in humans. I have not said that ababy should be allowed to dangle by placenta till expelled naturally nor did I say this is the general practice. I was commenting on baby's loosing contact from physical body of the mother. You might like to visit WHO reprodictive practices web page and find out what happens in child birth. Reagards, Chandrashekhar. - m_estevez vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:37 PM [vedic astrology] Re: Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Jyotisha, Pranams to my Guru Visti Ji and all the SJC Gurus for all the wonderful instruction. I must confess my knowledge of Jyotish is very small. However, I am professionally familiar with the birthing process.1)Physicians clamp the umbilical cord once the baby is clear of the mother and then cut it.2)In modern practice they do not wait for the blood in the umbilical cord to crystallize/coagulate/clot. However, in principle they could wait as must be the case in farm animals and wild animals.3)After the umbilical cord is cut hormonal changes in the mother cause the blood supply feeding the placenta to close down and the placenta can safely fall off the womb/uterus.4)The placenta can not separate from the womb/uterus after the "water breaks" since it can take many hours between the time the water breaks and the baby is actually born and breathing on its own. Without oxygen from the mothers blood supply in the womb/uterus thebaby will die.5)Essentially, the baby is an extension of the mother until the umbilical cord is cut becase he is dependent on her breath for life.Respectfully, Miguel vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar" <boxdel> wrote:> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelDear Visti,> If you have read my initial mail., I have mentioned that this is my opinion and others may have different opinions. You will also observe that I am not questioning why some hold cutting of umbilical cord to be the time of birth. I am aware that one of the texts (Phaladeepika if I am not wrong) does mention cutting of umbilical cord to be taken as time of birth. In response to your mail, I was just pointing out the physiological phenomenon as it happens. I have also sent link to WHO site so that you can verify yourself.> You will also observe that Shri Sanjayji has not yet intervened and is probably observing the arguments unfolding.This is a sign of a great mind which, while not tolerating wrong theories being advanced; continues its search for the truth. To continue to do so after having aquired great knowledge oneself shows that besides reading the scriptures it has understood its meaning. I am certain sanjayji is also well versed in Raja Bhartrihari's Neetishataka.> If my putting up my views is causing any hurt to you, I am certain you will pardon an ignorant person.> Regards,> Chandrashekhar. > - > Visti Larsen > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:06 PM> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel> > > |Hare Rama Krishna|> Dear Chandrashekhar,> Our Sanjay Rath of this list is said to not cry when he was born. He's still alive and kicking as far as i can tell.> The umbilical cord starts by stopping the flow of fluids between mother and baby. When this stops, the outer layers begin to crystalize, and the cord is cut. The whole umbilical cord cannot crystalize at once, but due to the exposure of air and lack of liquid surrounding it starts to dry up. The doctor waits for the the pulsing to stop and then cuts.> > This discussion has been held several times on this list, in which Sanjay Rath has also given his view. I would recommend that you search for his view in the archives, he has written a detailed assesment. If not then please acquire the workshop cd's from Hyderabad, where this discussion was also held.> > Best wishes> Visti> ---> Sri Jagannath Center: http://.org> Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org> iTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org> - > Chandrashekhar > vedic astrology > Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:22 PM> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel> > > Dear Visti,> When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding.> I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. > I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen.> However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position.> I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list.> Regards,> Chandrashekhar.> ----- Original Message ----- > Visti Larsen > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel> > > |Hare Rama Krishna|> Dear Chandrashekhar,> The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No.> > The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same.> > Best wishes> Visti> ---> Sri Jagannath Center: http://.org> Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org> iTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org> - > Chandrashekhar > vedic astrology > Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel> > > Dear Arthur,> Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event.> The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. > This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question.> Other learned members might have different views and logic.> Chandrashekhar.> > - > Arthur Smith > vedic astrology > Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel> > > Dear Chandramukha & Chandrasekhar> > The question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?> > Arthur> > > > on 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel wrote:> > > Dear Chandramukha Das,> I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.> Chandrashekhar.> > ----- Original Message ----- > Chandramukha das <chandra@m...> > Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> > Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM> [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel> > Hare Krishna!> Dear Jyotisha,> We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubt> concerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birth> time is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in the> last time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cutting> nevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning of> birth time from cutting nevel?> > --> Your sishya,> Chandramukha das> > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service <> . > > > Sponsor > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of Service <> . > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > .> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > ........ May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Rema, At the cost of being called obstinate, I would say when you first cried out would be the right time. Your horoscope, if the ascendant is on border so that difference of 5 minutes could make a change of ascendant would be a fit case to test the theory of what should be the time of birth. Of course for this both the time of cutting of umbilical cord and that of your first cry should be available. Chandrashekhar. - Rema Menon vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 11:33 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Namaste Sarajitji and Ramapriyaji,In continuation with this discussion I have a questionfor you.What if a baby is born, do not cry, is blue, isseparated from the mothers body, the umblical cord iscut and since found not breathing, that means dead,set aside as dead, and later after 15 minutes or so.resumes the color of living, starts moving and crying.What is the actual time of this baby's starting oflife...the emerging from the mothers body, cutting ofthe umblical cord or first breath(cry)?The baby in question is/was me.Thanks, Rema--- Ramapriya D <hubli (AT) hotpop (DOT) com> wrote:> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a> nevelDear Sarajit,> > My accent was intended to keep the whole concept> simple; it perhaps became too simple, as you say > > Let me try another. Say a lady delivers a baby which> is dead on arrival. Would or wouldn't you consider> it born? I think I'd look obtuse if on the grounds> of it not having shrieked I argued that it wasn't> born at all. It was born but was born a lemon; too> bad. And when was it born? When it physically> separated from the inside of its mom. That was my> point, notwithstanding it was poorly made > > Warm regards,> > Rama> hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com> > ----- Original Message ----- > Sarajit Poddar > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 5:53 PM> Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time &> cutting a nevel> > > Jaya Jagannath> Dear Rama,> > The logic is brilliant, but not of much utility> for Jyotish sake. The definition you gave is again> is given not taking Jyotish in mind... Isn't it...> Definitions are something which we define, based on> whatever it should be; its not the definition which> define what it should be. Yup for a common man your> definition of birth would suffice. However, what I> might say here is that, Cars don't have placenta> otherwise if it has any, then obviously you couldn't> have driven it to your home, as long as the car was> connected to the delivery showroom with it.> > Best Wishes> Sarajit> ----- Original Message ----- > Sanjay Rath > vedic astrology > Sunday, May 18, 2003 7:37 PM> RE: [vedic astrology] Birth Time &> cutting a nevel> > Om Brihaspataye namah> Dear Rama> Simply brilliant analogy..there are somethigns> God will always keep in His control.> With best wishes> Sanjay Rath> =====Rema MenonThe New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.http://search.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dr. Dilip Banerjee, Would you please coment whether what I have said about cutting of umbilical cord and detachment of placenta is correct or wrong. This would enable this discussion to go on right track again. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Sarbani Sarkar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:52 PM RE: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Candrashekharji, Sanjayji's shishya, Dr. Dilip Bannerjee, a practising paediatrician, and an old member of SJC! Best regards, Sarbani Chandrashekhar [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk]Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:53 AMvedic astrologySubject: Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Dear Visti, I have not felt attacked personally at all. I thought you might feel so, as I was explaining the process of cutting of umbilical cord. That is why I asked your pardon , should feel that I am trying to hurt you. I never take discussions personally if they have a base in logic (however farfetched the logic might be). So feeling attacked, that too by a person of your immense knowledge is absolutely out of question. It is said by elders " Vade vade ni jaayate tatvabodhaH". By the way did you access the link I had given with the mail? Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 3:00 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, No emotions involved so far. If you feel attacked personally, then i'm sorry. All i'm doing is putting your oppinions under scrutiny. Maybe Sanjay is observing how his students deal with the subject before he intervenes. At some his students are going to be teaching others without his scrutiny, so for now he maybe reaping the results of his teachings. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, If you have read my initial mail., I have mentioned that this is my opinion and others may have different opinions. You will also observe that I am not questioning why some hold cutting of umbilical cord to be the time of birth. I am aware that one of the texts (Phaladeepika if I am not wrong) does mention cutting of umbilical cord to be taken as time of birth. In response to your mail, I was just pointing out the physiological phenomenon as it happens. I have also sent link to WHO site so that you can verify yourself. You will also observe that Shri Sanjayji has not yet intervened and is probably observing the arguments unfolding.This is a sign of a great mind which, while not tolerating wrong theories being advanced; continues its search for the truth. To continue to do so after having aquired great knowledge oneself shows that besides reading the scriptures it has understood its meaning. I am certain sanjayji is also well versed in Raja Bhartrihari's Neetishataka. If my putting up my views is causing any hurt to you, I am certain you will pardon an ignorant person. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:06 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, Our Sanjay Rath of this list is said to not cry when he was born. He's still alive and kicking as far as i can tell. The umbilical cord starts by stopping the flow of fluids between mother and baby. When this stops, the outer layers begin to crystalize, and the cord is cut. The whole umbilical cord cannot crystalize at once, but due to the exposure of air and lack of liquid surrounding it starts to dry up. The doctor waits for the the pulsing to stop and then cuts. This discussion has been held several times on this list, in which Sanjay Rath has also given his view. I would recommend that you search for his view in the archives, he has written a detailed assesment. If not then please acquire the workshop cd's from Hyderabad, where this discussion was also held. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:22 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Visti, When babies never cry and never breath they are called still born babies. This yoga is seen in the parent's horoscope to my understanding. I think your info about flow of blood stopping in umbilical cord and the umbilical cord crystallizing is not accurate. I have been a breeder of dogs and also a dairyman( the puzzle that was not solved) and have delivered umpteen numbers of babies albeit not of the human variety. I have never seen umbilical cord crystallizing and have not found any reference to this being the condition for cutting the umbilical cord in any Gynic or Obstretics reference Books that I possess. To my mind if somebody really allows it to crystalize this ould be necrosis and the mother would then surely suffer pyometra at the minimum. I doubt if any medical practitioner would allow this to happen. However, me not being a Licenced medical practitioner of the Human species, perhaps Doctors on the list would like to state the factual position. I will give other reasons that I belive what I belive after this issue is clarified by some medical practitioner one of whom is bound to be on this list. Regards, Chandrashekhar. - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-........ 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Om Namo Gurubrihaspathaye, Dear Sarajit, Me to agree. Independent existing is actual physical separation from mother. Arising (creation ?) and dissolution (Destruction?) of the body can be realized with breathing practice. This is part of insight meditation (Vipassana). Feeding this body start as soon as conception occurred and continue until death. Foods are not only bread and rice, but water as well as Air we breath in. In the womb, the body partake oxygen or food through mothers blood and after come out start to partake oxygen it self. So start breathing is changing the way of partaking oxygen, but not start to partake oxygen. Body is a separate department which growing up separately, I like or not it keep breath in and out, and continue to exist. There is no choice up to certain level. The actual birth occur, after physical separation, from mother's body. This is only my understanding and what I believe. How ever, if you understand the rising and dissolution part related to breath in and out easier to understand my argument. Hope this help. Perhaps more details can be send to your mail. Thanks Karu - Sarajit Poddar vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:09 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Jaya JagannathDear Karu, Can you explain more, what you are willing to say. However, I second Visti and you that crying cannot be the basis for birth on one more basis. What makes the baby to have an independent existence and not as an organ of the mother? It is the severence of the connection of umbilical cord to the mother's body. Best Wishes Sarajit - Karu vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:51 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Om Namo Gurubrihaspathaye, Dear Visti and Chandrasekhar, Food or Ahara is for keep this body alive. We takes food in many different forms such as through blood before cut the code, form of liquid after take the birth, and form of bread later. When we all tired, the glass of juice add some energy to the body as soon as it goes in to the stomach, need not to wait hours to burn it. Fact is every breath create many million particles or cells in this body as soon as you breath in. So our breathing too is ahara (food) to this body and only difference is the food comes after taking the form of air. First breath is nothing but taking food. But it is not the start of consuming food. So breathing or crying cannot be the actual birth. Hope this help you. Karu Visti Larsen vedic astrology Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:42 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel |Hare Rama Krishna| Dear Chandrashekhar, The logic of using first cry as time of birth doesn't work, some babies don't cry.. maybe you could apply this to first breathe, but then some don't breathe and are born dead as soon as the navel-cord is cut, are we then to say that they haven't been born? No. The umbilical cord is not cut at just anytime, the doctor waits until the flow of fluids between the mother and child has stopped, and then the umbilical cord crystalizes and is cut. Otherwise it is not cut. Hence the idea of planned cesarian births doesn't work.. just ask some on this list who have attempted the same. Best wishesVisti---Sri Jagannath Center: http://.orgBhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgiTRANS 99 Font: http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org - Chandrashekhar vedic astrology Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:27 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Arthur, Some texts say that the time of cutting of umbilical cord is to be taken as time of birth. I differ. The reason is that when elective ceasarian section is possible, time of cutting of umbilical cord can also be selected(I have seen parents asking astrologers what would be the time that would give best possible Horoscope for a child to be so delivered so that they can fix time of operation acordingly). Now if we accept that umbilical cord separation is to be treated as time of birth and that the position of planets then is going to determine the fate of the child, I think we are missing something here. However a child will cry for first time only at a moment of its own choosing and no artificial election of time of birth could be applied to that event. The second logic is that since estoppage of breath is time of death, by corrolary drawing of the first birth( which is what the child does when he cies for first time) has to be the time of birth. This is my logic(Viveka which astrologers are enjoined to use, when applying principles of astrology, by the sages) in saying that time of birth is to be taken when a baby cries out for the first time. There are other reasons too related to the time the shashtra was evolved but let us not delve into it as it would then constitute a thesis, beyond the scope of the question. Other learned members might have different views and logic. Chandrashekhar. - Arthur Smith vedic astrology Monday, January 20, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevel Dear Chandramukha & ChandrasekharThe question here is that there could be a substantial time difference between the time when the imbilical cord is cut and the first gap of air. So which exactly is it? Any sastra references?Arthuron 17/01/2003 7:53 pm, Chandrashekhar at boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk wrote: Dear Chandramukha Das,I believe a the moment of birth is when the baby cries out. This happenes when it draws the first breath.Chandrashekhar. - Chandramukha das <chandra (AT) mail (DOT) ru> Forum Vedic Astrology <vedic astrology> ; Sri Jagannath Forum <> Friday, January 17, 2003 1:13 PM[vedic astrology] Birth Time & cutting a nevelHare Krishna!Dear Jyotisha,We had discussion in Russia among astrologer,and there was some doubtconcerning the beginning of birth time. Sanjayaji teaches, that birthtime is considered from cutting nevel, but sometimes especial in thelast time, meets that the child been born can lay with not cuttingnevel till 1 hour. Is acceptably consider in that case beginning ofbirth time from cutting nevel?--Your sishya,Chandramukha dasArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Terms of Service <> . Sponsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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