Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Dear Ashutoshji, I would like to share my own experiences with my Guruji, Sri Poonjaji of Lucknow India. I grew up with no religious or spiritual training in any tradition what so ever & completely shunned everything even remotely related in that direction I enjoyed my life to the fullest in whatever was my concept of enjoyement in those years but as I came to the end of my Rahu MD I began to have certain psycological experiences & some how I knew that I would need a GURU to guide me thru. This belief, all by itself, cut thru all my disdain, mistrust & disregard for anything spiritual & of Gurus in particular. With the onset of my Jupiter MD, Sri Poonjaji came into my field of awareness & I decided to visit him, telling myself that I was not obliged to stay & was free to leave anytime I wanted to. That it couldnt hurt to spend a week around him, to see what might transpire & if nothing happened then well it was only a week of wasted time. Above all, I was convinced that I would never join any organization no matter what. There may be other members of this group who might have heard of or maybe spent time with Sri Poonjaji. However I speak only for me. I found in him a GURU who took nothing from me. If I brought him gifts he accepted them graciously but passed them on to whoever. At first I felt offended but later understood that it was not the gift itself that was important but the intention behind. He did not ask me to join any organization, he was always available for me whenever I wanted to seek his company & I never left his home without being fed the meal of that time of day. No contribution was asked for the meal or expected & I never gave any. I never saw him angry with anyone who was sincere in their search, no matter how foolish they might have appeared to me but he was often very angry with people who trifled with him & others, even though I didnt always understand his reasons. I was just an ordinary face in the crowd but he always treated me with Love without giving me any prefrential treatment. Without my asking, he seemed to know about my needs & simply was there for me. When I was sick, I did not tell him but he sent the doctor to take care of me. He even sent me a letter when someone was comming to Switzerland. I really felt Loved even though I had no position of authority or finiancial status among his usual gathering of apparently important devotees, nor did I contribute any money whatsoever. It was never the subject. Thru certain too long to mention experiences, Papaji gave me his Grace, by which I can now always recognize my ego & step aside to avoid being blinded by it. He also made me aware of the empty & peaceful space within me, whose technical name I do not know but value it nevertheless. And many more such like.... I dont know how important these gifts are for anyone else but for me they are the greatest gift I can imagin with humility & gratitude, at this point in my development. I had also observed that whomsoever went to him with whatsoever space, he had filled it with his Grace. The amount of space one had was entirely upto the individual. I often regret that I was not more aware of this during my time in his physical presence but only truly realized this after he left this world. Now I am at a point that with every new realization, I love & appriciate Shri Poonjaji ever more for his continued guidance. So I do not know about all the other Gurus & their organizations but Sri Poonjaji certainly flipped me over, a completely sceptical nonbeliever into someone who understands that everything is possible in the appropriate place at the appropriate time. Perhaps an answer to your question below might be that one recognizes the Guru in one`s own projection of one`s self, be this projection on someone on the outside or within oneself. It doesnt really matter in the end. Hari Om ! Shabnam ---- astrologerashutosh 05/14/06 05:51:04 valist Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse Dear friend, The whole question is whether to look for a Guru is some other person or to search for a guru who has always been there inside you. The whole idea of having a Guru, or a Satguru, itself is faulty. It undermines ones spiritual self-reliance. I never had any Guru and I know hundreds of such people who have never had any Guru. Those who run after Gurus, are really those who have accumulated to much of guilt over their consciences in their lives due to faulty and indisciplined lives. Then, when they feel that they are going to loose everything, they run after these gurus to get rid of the ghosts of their own misdeeds which have been haunting them. I say it all because today I am in a position to be a typical Guru. It is realy very easy for me.There are many people who respect and rever me.. I look like a guru, long hair and all, I can preach for hours, talk on any topic and give appropriate advices. My knowledge is not limited to astrology only, but I have done some deep research in yoga and ayurveda too. But, I know that I will be making them more dependent upon me that way. My aim is to make everyone in my touch self-reliant and self-guiding. I feel more comfortable talking to you as a friend, as an equal. I hate sitting on a pedestal with people bowing before me. Because then I will have to tell a thousand lies just to keep sitting on that pedestal. But, ironically, someone somewhere might be impressed by my these very thoughts and decide to make me his guru. People are ready to worship even lifeless stones and have thousands of reasons and arguments to do so. You are looking at the topic from the point of view of a layman, a guru-seeker. I am looking at it as a potential Guru. To be very frank, it is very easy to be a Guru, but it is really the disciples who make a Guru. Without them, the guru is just a beggar sitting under a tree. Very often, the disciples make someone a Guru and form a group aiming at some higher personal gains. It is all materialism, not spiritualism. The Guru is a status symbol nowadays. It sounds funny, but it is true. When I said 'all', I meant 'all'. Any thoughts why despite having tonnes of Gurus every century, we Indians are still in all sorts of troubles. Regards, Ashutosh - temp_spk4 valist Sunday, 14 May, 2006 01:25 Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse Alas, I am still here and still want to write more. Ashutosh, I agree completely that a true well-wishing honest Guru does not need to form any organization. But I do not think that automically means that they will not. The true and many reasons for things may be unknown to us. And I do not think there is anything inherently evil about organizations. Much can be accomplished when many work in harmony toward the same goal. And do you agree that it is possible that the devotees of a Guru may take it upon themselves to form an organization around the Guru? Saints are uplifted above others because they put themselves above no one & are ahead of/lead others becuase they put themselves ahead of no one. Certainly, there must be a vast number of self-proclaimed gurus that Rick and yourself have described, who run sects/cults/organizations. I have not encounted them first hand, but I definitely take Rick's word for it and your word for it. However, again I say that this does not indicate there are no true Gurus, it just means that neither you nor Rick have encountered one that you could take to be a true Guru. Again, I say to you if a person has all negative experiences with anything, whether it be religion, gurus, astrology, police, kids, pets, hippies, corporate executives, ect.... then such a person's perception may be colored by the said experiences. It so very easy for that to happen. A coloration of perception due to past experience is what I call karma. It could be "ROSY" colored perception from positive experiences or, I don't know, GREY colored perception from negative experience. If one thinks & acts in accordance to this coloration and does not see things how they truly are then such a one can be said to be under the infuence of karma. What you described is that you have the humility to learn from others and to see in them the same as what is in you. Perhaps it is your lot in life to not have a Sat ("True") Guru, but rather to awaken & develop love through your interactions with many people. The only thing I take expection to in your writing is the use of the word "all". Is it possible that we could dig for a lifetime in a mine and not find any trace of a diamond? Is is possilble that hundreds, thousands of others have the same experience? And still is it possible that another person may dig for 10 minutes and find a diamond? Ashutosh, I do not know. But I am not willing to rule it out. What you describe about the way you live your life is beautiful. And I thank you sincerely for sharing your wisdom here. Perhaps each aspect of wisdom, of love, that you have gleaned from your encounters with others, the Guru you see in others, will one day be before you in totality, embodied as your Sat-Guru, one who is qualified to guide you beyond the limited view that the objects of the senses provide. Or not, who can say for certain? I think it is possible to be open to the possibility with out sacrificing one's caution & reason. It is also possible that we may not consider some one to be a Guru and actually may have a dislike for such a person when such a one is Sat-Guru to another. Many today are called to wear a monk's robe, but to wear it "on the inside" and cultivate themselves within society, to improve society by merging with it, rather than in the seclusion of a cave or in the woods. As described earlier it not the "label" that makes one who one is, whether the label is self-imposed or given by others, nor is it a particular uniform or dress. And those who wear the uniform and have the label may not be the real deal. Again, we can "know a tree by its fruit." Namaste valist, "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear friend, > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a friend, and in many different ways. > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think good and do good to more people around us and that too with total honesty. > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on any television channel in the morning and you will find them in different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some different perspectives of life everyday. > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co- existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a member of these sects or cults. > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > - > temp_spk4 > valist > Saturday, 13 May, 2006 00:26 > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > Ashutosh, > > I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all these > organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if instead > of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring to > just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making a > generalization. > > Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus does not > automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. > Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in the > natal chart. > > If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and was > defrauded every time then such a person might state that "astrology > causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are out for > money" because that has been there experience. However, here we know > that this is not the case because we have had the experience that > astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help others > greatly with the knowledge they share. > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear Das, > > > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You have > bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions were > dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder aeroplane. > Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand Margis, > they had no evidence to book them. > > > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was > personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun manufacturing > factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his own > private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances are > well known. > > > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > - > > Das Goravani > > valist > > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > > > Death > > > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no > struggle, > > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she > was actually > > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days > before. > > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people > in the > > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you > would think > > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see > Hanuman or > > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is > record of a > > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing > the Druids, > > and so on. > > > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't > think it is > > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not > the horrific > > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, > shock sets in > > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the > friend of > > the traumatized it seems. > > > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too > difficult overall. > > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the > sentient > > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and > eventually into > > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. > > > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and > animals, > > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life > that we all > > live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere > together, > > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, > with TV, > > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we > learn to > > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my > parents > > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of > them from my > > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all > very new. > > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > > > ----------------------- > > > > The Proveable > > > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material > nature itself. > > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they > don't > > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life > will perish, > > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much > much more. > > > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the > unproveable. It is > > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious > theories. > > > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to > see, know, > > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the > creation in which > > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs > the > > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching > this list, so > > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each > isolated > > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, > in Ireland > > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in > India "Vishnu" etc. > > > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. > Certain > > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and > a "God" of some > > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to > harmonize > > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > > > ---------------------- > > > > Abuse > > > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that > one needs a > > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the > idea that > > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who > perform the > > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right > guidance" for > > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, > or teacher, > > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in > fact, they say > > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God > because > > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to > God". > > > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, > he is > > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals > have raised > > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to > defend their > > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, > he showed > > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban > Warfare Gun. > > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing > humans. It's > > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, > light, and > > deadly. > > > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing > nor even > > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the > Guru". > > > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But > nobody could > > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche > cars and > > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove > through our > > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, > from one > > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, > and there > > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I > knew him well. > > There is no other explanation. > > > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years > later he > > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. > He had > > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to > waste > > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our > Hare > > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw > beyond it. > > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had > these > > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense > always that > > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. > Finally the > > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was > just one of > > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy > events, that I > > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. > Then > > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been > through a few > > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may > also be the > > path destroyer. > > > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear > your voice, > > your song, your way, your lessons. > > > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are > really great. > > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", > as in the > > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, > really "the path to > > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to > emulate? > > > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much > what I've > > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other > scriptures, always > > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as > well. Kindof > > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and > through > > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if > being > > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real > feelings, the > > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way > wasted > > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > : valist- > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > Links Visit your group "valist" on the web. valist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Dear Shabnam, Your comment is enlightening that "one recognizes the Guru in one`s own projection of one`sÊ self, beÊthis projectionÊon someone on the outside or within oneself. It doesnt really matter in the end" because it points to the truth that the "Guru" is ultimately a state of grace that exists beyond that which we perceive through the body, mind, and senses and whether it is projected on "another" who is embodied doesn't ultimately "matter in the end"; it is the recognition of "that" grace beyond one's limited self, or the limited self of another, that does really matter in the end, and is particularly illuminating since this purnima celebrates the birth, death, and enlightenment of the Buddha. Janna Om Purnamada Purnamidam Purnat Purnamadachayte Purnasya, Purnamadaya, Purname Va vashisyate. valist, "Bioacoustics" <bioacoustics wrote: > > Dear Ashutoshji, > > I would like to share my own experiences with my Guruji, Sri Poonjaji of > Lucknow India. > > I grew up with no religious or spiritual training in any tradition what so > ever & completely shunned everything even remotely related in that direction > > I enjoyed my life to the fullest in whatever was my concept of enjoyement in > those years but as I came to the end of my Rahu MD I began to have certain > psycological experiences & some how I knew that I would need a GURU to guide > me thru. > This belief, all by itself, cut thru all my disdain, mistrust & disregard > for anything spiritual & of Gurus in particular. > With the onset of my Jupiter MD, Sri Poonjaji came into my field of > awareness & I decided to visit him, telling myself that I was not obliged to > stay & was free to leave anytime I wanted to. That it couldnt hurt to spend > a week around him, to see what might transpire & if nothing happened then > well it was only a week of wasted time. Above all, I was convinced that I > would never join any organization no matter what. > > There may be other members of this group who might have heard of or maybe > spent time with Sri Poonjaji. However I speak only for me. > > I found in him a GURU who took nothing from me. If I brought him gifts he > accepted them graciously but passed them on to whoever. At first I felt > offended but later understood that it was not the gift itself that was > important but the intention behind. > He did not ask me to join any organization, he was always available for me > whenever I wanted to seek his company & I never left his home without being > fed the meal of that time of day. No contribution was asked for the meal or > expected & I never gave any. > I never saw him angry with anyone who was sincere in their search, no matter > how foolish they might have appeared to me but he was often very angry with > people who trifled with him & others, even though I didnt always understand > his reasons. > I was just an ordinary face in the crowd but he always treated me with Love > without giving me any prefrential treatment. > Without my asking, he seemed to know about my needs & simply was there for > me. When I was sick, I did not tell him but he sent the doctor to take care > of me. He even sent me a letter when someone was comming to Switzerland. I > really felt Loved even though I had no position of authority or finiancial > status among his usual gathering of apparently important devotees, nor did I > contribute any money whatsoever. It was never the subject. > > Thru certain too long to mention experiences, Papaji gave me his Grace, by > which I can now always recognize my ego & step aside to avoid being blinded > by it. He also made me aware of the empty & peaceful space within me, whose > technical name I do not know but value it nevertheless. And many more such > like.... > I dont know how important these gifts are for anyone else but for me they > are the greatest gift I can imagin with humility & gratitude, at this point > in my development. > I had also observed that whomsoever went to him with whatsoever space, he > had filled it with his Grace. The amount of space one had was entirely upto > the individual. > I often regret that I was not more aware of this during my time in his > physical presence but only truly realized this after he left this world. > Now I am at a point that with every new realization, I love & appriciate > Shri Poonjaji ever more for his continued guidance. > > So I do not know about all the other Gurus & their organizations but Sri > Poonjaji certainly flipped me over, a completely sceptical nonbeliever into > someone who understands that everything is possible in the appropriate place > at the appropriate time. > > Perhaps an answer to your question below might be that one recognizes the > Guru in one`s own projection of one`s self, be this projection on someone > on the outside or within oneself. It doesnt really matter in the end. > > Hari Om ! > Shabnam > > > ---- > > astrologerashutosh > 05/14/06 05:51:04 > valist > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > Dear friend, > > The whole question is whether to look for a Guru is some > other person or to search for a guru who has always been there inside you.. > > The whole idea of having a Guru, or a Satguru, itself is faulty. It > undermines ones spiritual self-reliance. I never had any Guru and I know > hundreds of such people who have never had any Guru. > > Those who run after Gurus, are really those who have accumulated to > much of guilt over their consciences in their lives due to faulty and > indisciplined lives. Then, when they feel that they are going to loose > everything, they run after these gurus to get rid of the ghosts of their own > misdeeds which have been haunting them. > > I say it all because today I am in a position to be a typical Guru. > It is realy very easy for me.There are many people who respect and rever me. > I look like a guru, long hair and all, I can preach for hours, talk on any > topic and give appropriate advices. My knowledge is not limited to astrology > only, but I have done some deep research in yoga and ayurveda too. > > But, I know that I will be making them more dependent upon me that > way. My aim is to make everyone in my touch self-reliant and self-guiding.. I > feel more comfortable talking to you as a friend, as an equal. I hate > sitting on a pedestal with people bowing before me. Because then I will have > to tell a thousand lies just to keep sitting on that pedestal. But, > ironically, someone somewhere might be impressed by my these very thoughts > and decide to make me his guru. People are ready to worship even lifeless > stones and have thousands of reasons and arguments to do so. > > You are looking at the topic from the point of view of a layman, a > guru-seeker. I am looking at it as a potential Guru. To be very frank, it is > very easy to be a Guru, but it is really the disciples who make a Guru. > Without them, the guru is just a beggar sitting under a tree. Very often, > the disciples make someone a Guru and form a group aiming at some higher > personal gains. It is all materialism, not spiritualism. The Guru is a > status symbol nowadays. It sounds funny, but it is true. > > When I said 'all', I meant 'all'. > > Any thoughts why despite having tonnes of Gurus every century, we > Indians are still in all sorts of troubles. > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > > - > temp_spk4 > valist > Sunday, 14 May, 2006 01:25 > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > Alas, I am still here and still want to write more. > > Ashutosh, > > I agree completely that a true well-wishing honest Guru does not > need to form any organization. But I do not think that automically > means that they will not. The true and many reasons for things may > be unknown to us. And I do not think there is anything inherently > evil about organizations. Much can be accomplished when many work > in harmony toward the same goal. And do you agree that it is > possible that the devotees of a Guru may take it upon themselves to > form an organization around the Guru? Saints are uplifted above > others because they put themselves above no one & are ahead of/lead > others becuase they put themselves ahead of no one. > > Certainly, there must be a vast number of self-proclaimed gurus that > Rick and yourself have described, who run > sects/cults/organizations. I have not encounted them first hand, > but I definitely take Rick's word for it and your word for it. > > However, again I say that this does not indicate there are no true > Gurus, it just means that neither you nor Rick have encountered one > that you could take to be a true Guru. > > Again, I say to you if a person has all negative experiences with > anything, whether it be religion, gurus, astrology, police, kids, > pets, hippies, corporate executives, ect.... then such a person's > perception may be colored by the said experiences. It so very easy > for that to happen. A coloration of perception due to past > experience is what I call karma. It could be "ROSY" colored > perception from positive experiences or, I don't know, GREY colored > perception from negative experience. If one thinks & acts in > accordance to this coloration and does not see things how they truly > are then such a one can be said to be under the infuence of karma. > > What you described is that you have the humility to learn from > others and to see in them the same as what is in you. Perhaps it is > your lot in life to not have a Sat ("True") Guru, but rather to > awaken & develop love through your interactions with many people. > > The only thing I take expection to in your writing is the use of the > word "all". > > Is it possible that we could dig for a lifetime in a mine and not > find any trace of a diamond? Is is possilble that hundreds, > thousands of others have the same experience? And still is it > possible that another person may dig for 10 minutes and find a > diamond? > > Ashutosh, I do not know. But I am not willing to rule it out. > > What you describe about the way you live your life is beautiful. > And I thank you sincerely for sharing your wisdom here. > > Perhaps each aspect of wisdom, of love, that you have gleaned from > your encounters with others, the Guru you see in others, will one > day be before you in totality, embodied as your Sat-Guru, one who is > qualified to guide you beyond the limited view that the objects of > the senses provide. Or not, who can say for certain? I think it is > possible to be open to the possibility with out sacrificing one's > caution & reason. It is also possible that we may not consider some > one to be a Guru and actually may have a dislike for such a person > when such a one is Sat-Guru to another. > > Many today are called to wear a monk's robe, but to wear it "on the > inside" and cultivate themselves within society, to improve society > by merging with it, rather than in the seclusion of a cave or in the > woods. > > As described earlier it not the "label" that makes one who one is, > whether the label is self-imposed or given by others, nor is it a > particular uniform or dress. > > And those who wear the uniform and have the label may not be the > real deal. Again, we can "know a tree by its fruit." > > Namaste > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear friend, > > > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well > wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. > He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a > friend, and in many different ways. > > > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think > good and do good to more people around us and that too with total > honesty. > > > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on > any television channel in the morning and you will find them in > different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove > that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach > us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, > which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this > business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found > not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, > friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the > neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some > different perspectives of life everyday. > > > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be > touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers > to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is > not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make > several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co- > existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no > crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a > member of these sects or cults. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > temp_spk4 > > valist > > Saturday, 13 May, 2006 00:26 > > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > Ashutosh, > > > > I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all > these > > organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if > instead > > of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring > to > > just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making > a > > generalization. > > > > Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus > does not > > automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. > > Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in > the > > natal chart. > > > > If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and > was > > defrauded every time then such a person might state > that "astrology > > causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are > out for > > money" because that has been there experience. However, here we > know > > that this is not the case because we have had the experience > that > > astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help > others > > greatly with the knowledge they share. > > > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Das, > > > > > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You > have > > bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > > > > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions > were > > dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder > aeroplane. > > Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand > Margis, > > they had no evidence to book them. > > > > > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was > > personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun > manufacturing > > factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his > own > > private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > > > > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances > are > > well known. > > > > > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Das Goravani > > > valist > > > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > > > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Death > > > > > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain > and no > > struggle, > > > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional > she > > was actually > > > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for > days > > before. > > > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other > people > > in the > > > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that > you > > would think > > > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus > see > > Hanuman or > > > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There > is > > record of a > > > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of > seeing > > the Druids, > > > and so on. > > > > > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I > don't > > think it is > > > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course > not > > the horrific > > > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, > > shock sets in > > > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is > the > > friend of > > > the traumatized it seems. > > > > > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too > > difficult overall. > > > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that > the > > sentient > > > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and > > eventually into > > > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing > process. > > > > > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people > and > > animals, > > > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one > life > > that we all > > > live together for billions of years, as if we are going > somewhere > > together, > > > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and > now, > > with TV, > > > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, > as we > > learn to > > > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody > in my > > parents > > > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands > of > > them from my > > > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is > all > > very new. > > > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > The Proveable > > > > > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material > > nature itself. > > > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if > they > > don't > > > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or > life > > will perish, > > > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and > much > > much more. > > > > > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the > > unproveable. It is > > > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with > relgious > > theories. > > > > > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach > to > > see, know, > > > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the > > creation in which > > > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that > runs > > the > > > internet is well understood and all our messages are > reaching > > this list, so > > > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > > > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > > > > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and > each > > isolated > > > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for > example, > > in Ireland > > > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in > > India "Vishnu" etc. > > > > > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the > rituals. > > Certain > > > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and > > a "God" of some > > > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > > > > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures > try to > > harmonize > > > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > Abuse > > > > > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say > that > > one needs a > > > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something > similar...the > > idea that > > > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > > > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who > > perform the > > > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right > > guidance" for > > > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us > call it > > > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > > > > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the > Guru, > > or teacher, > > > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the > founder was > > > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and > in > > fact, they say > > > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than > God > > because > > > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers > you to > > God". > > > > > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not > questioned, > > he is > > > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > > > > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. > Cardinals > > have raised > > > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had > to > > defend their > > > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > > > > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first > day, > > he showed > > > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban > > Warfare Gun. > > > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing > > humans. It's > > > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, > > light, and > > > deadly. > > > > > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a > thing > > nor even > > > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the > > Guru". > > > > > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But > > nobody could > > > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked > Porsche > > cars and > > > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the > woman too. > > > > > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy > drove > > through our > > > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live > ammunition, > > from one > > > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, > whatever, > > and there > > > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. > I > > knew him well. > > > There is no other explanation. > > > > > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years > > later he > > > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our > lives. > > He had > > > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got > to > > waste > > > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets > on our > > Hare > > > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I > saw > > beyond it. > > > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > > > > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru > had > > these > > > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense > > always that > > > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take > measures. > > Finally the > > > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that > was > > just one of > > > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy > > events, that I > > > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel > too. > > Then > > > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been > > through a few > > > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > > > > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he > may > > also be the > > > path destroyer. > > > > > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to > hear > > your voice, > > > your song, your way, your lessons. > > > > > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to > be > > > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons > are > > really great. > > > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of > renunciation", > > as in the > > > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, > > really "the path to > > > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the > thing to > > emulate? > > > > > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty > much > > what I've > > > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other > > scriptures, always > > > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as > > well. Kindof > > > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know > thyself...and > > through > > > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but > if > > being > > > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own > real > > feelings, the > > > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in > a way > > wasted > > > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > : valist- > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "valist" on the web. > > > valist > > > <*> valist/ <*> valist <*> Your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Ashutosh, Perhaps it is just our notion of what a Guru is that differs. What you described is not what I would consider to be Guru. To me it is not about simply sharing knowledge and offering advice. I do not agree that the idea of having Satguru undermines one's spiritual self-reliance. Rather, I believe that a Satguru helps one to discern one's True Self, Sat, by being a living example of the same and by guiding one in sadhanas that spur this realization. For one that has realized the True Self, Guru, then they cease to need an "outer" Guru to quide them as they have relized their oneness with the Guru/True Self & become truly Self-reliant. It still takes some self-reliance & self-effort to succeed in any endeavor whether guided by Satguru or not. We can recognize Truth/Sat because it is the same that is within us, we always remain reliant on this Self. However, more often then not I and perhaps many others are not guided by this "Self", but by the "self" - ego & material body. Until the realization of Self is fully ours, we can be quided by this same True Self that is fully realized & embodied by another if we are lucky enough to keep company with such a person. Therefor, my understanding of a Satguru is such a person whom has fully realized the Self/Sat and is therefor qualified to lead another to the same. Whether it takes a Satguru to guide another to this realization or whether a person can achieve this w/o a Satguru, I do not know. But most often in my life it has been experiences with others, like you have described, and the examples offered by others, that has helped to show me the way - helped me to "recognize" Sat/Truth. Even those practices that one can do in solitude like various meditation & other exercises that help awaken greater awareness still require another person to introduce it to you. Therefor, it is plausible that it will be Satguru who will guide me into a final & complete realization of the "True Self", "Sat", "Guru." My belief is that the role of a Satguru is not simply advising others based on a learned knowledge of Jyotish, Ayurveda, scripture, and so forth. However, we find even such worldly knowledge spurred not by inner-realization alone, but by guidance received from others & by our "outer" experiences in general. Again, it is not necessary to discard our discernment & reason in order to be guided by another. Rather, I believe that such a one who can be called Satguru speaks to our highest capacity of discernment & reason (Sattwa /Buddhi/ Intelligence) and therefor it could not be more natural to be guided by such a one. > Any thoughts why despite having tonnes of Gurus every >century, we Indians are still in all sorts of troubles. Well, we know it is not just Indians that are in all sorts of troubles. Humans in general have all sorts of troubles. I think the reason for this is not due to any lack or abudance of Gurus- whether they be false or true. Rather, it is because of our ignorance that we chose to be led mainly by attachement & aversion, egoism, and tenacity (tenacity to the belief in the validity and ultimate worth of the material creation), rather then being guided by Guru/Sat/True Self whether inwardly realized or found outwardly embodied as one's Satguru. I do not think a Satguru could help us until we are able to live by some basic priciples that can be gleaned by simply following the "golden rule" and when we have the ability to put into action what we already know to be the proper way of life. Until then, even if we were to meet one that could be to us our Satguru and we were to recognize one as such, would we even have the discipline to be guided by such a one? There are plenty of things we know already about what we consider to be the right & moral way of life that we fail to implement. Nor do we even try our best all of the time. For me, personally, there are many things I know to be true and yet I fail to put them into practice even a small percentage of the time. So I think many of us still have plenty that we can learn & implement with out needing to find a Satguru whether by seeking inwardly or outwardly. It is my optimistic belief that when we are ready we will meet our Satguru - another cliche is that "only when the fruit is ripe will it drop from the tree." Untill then, like you have described, there is plenty to be gleaned from life experiences and others we encounter through out our life. And I STILL contend that it is possible that others here on this planet, at this time, are able to keep the company of one(s) qualified to be Sat-Guru. Clearly, we may continue to disagree on this point. And I guess it really does not matter all that much - I think all this writing is simply stemming from ego (on my part), wanting to be heard & acknowledged. If there are true Gurus out there then there are true Gurus out there. If there are not any then there are not any. That is that. Therefor, perhaps this discussion served no purpose except for us to put our thought process in writing to be viewed by others. valist, "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear friend, > > The whole question is whether to look for a Guru is some other person or to search for a guru who has always been there inside you. > > The whole idea of having a Guru, or a Satguru, itself is faulty. It undermines ones spiritual self-reliance. I never had any Guru and I know hundreds of such people who have never had any Guru. > > Those who run after Gurus, are really those who have accumulated to much of guilt over their consciences in their lives due to faulty and indisciplined lives. Then, when they feel that they are going to loose everything, they run after these gurus to get rid of the ghosts of their own misdeeds which have been haunting them. > > I say it all because today I am in a position to be a typical Guru. It is realy very easy for me.There are many people who respect and rever me. I look like a guru, long hair and all, I can preach for hours, talk on any topic and give appropriate advices. My knowledge is not limited to astrology only, but I have done some deep research in yoga and ayurveda too. > > But, I know that I will be making them more dependent upon me that way. My aim is to make everyone in my touch self-reliant and self-guiding. I feel more comfortable talking to you as a friend, as an equal. I hate sitting on a pedestal with people bowing before me. Because then I will have to tell a thousand lies just to keep sitting on that pedestal. But, ironically, someone somewhere might be impressed by my these very thoughts and decide to make me his guru. People are ready to worship even lifeless stones and have thousands of reasons and arguments to do so. > > You are looking at the topic from the point of view of a layman, a guru-seeker. I am looking at it as a potential Guru. To be very frank, it is very easy to be a Guru, but it is really the disciples who make a Guru. Without them, the guru is just a beggar sitting under a tree. Very often, the disciples make someone a Guru and form a group aiming at some higher personal gains. It is all materialism, not spiritualism. The Guru is a status symbol nowadays. It sounds funny, but it is true. > > When I said 'all', I meant 'all'. > > Any thoughts why despite having tonnes of Gurus every century, we Indians are still in all sorts of troubles. > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > > - > temp_spk4 > valist > Sunday, 14 May, 2006 01:25 > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > Alas, I am still here and still want to write more. > > Ashutosh, > > I agree completely that a true well-wishing honest Guru does not > need to form any organization. But I do not think that automically > means that they will not. The true and many reasons for things may > be unknown to us. And I do not think there is anything inherently > evil about organizations. Much can be accomplished when many work > in harmony toward the same goal. And do you agree that it is > possible that the devotees of a Guru may take it upon themselves to > form an organization around the Guru? Saints are uplifted above > others because they put themselves above no one & are ahead of/lead > others becuase they put themselves ahead of no one. > > Certainly, there must be a vast number of self-proclaimed gurus that > Rick and yourself have described, who run > sects/cults/organizations. I have not encounted them first hand, > but I definitely take Rick's word for it and your word for it. > > However, again I say that this does not indicate there are no true > Gurus, it just means that neither you nor Rick have encountered one > that you could take to be a true Guru. > > Again, I say to you if a person has all negative experiences with > anything, whether it be religion, gurus, astrology, police, kids, > pets, hippies, corporate executives, ect.... then such a person's > perception may be colored by the said experiences. It so very easy > for that to happen. A coloration of perception due to past > experience is what I call karma. It could be "ROSY" colored > perception from positive experiences or, I don't know, GREY colored > perception from negative experience. If one thinks & acts in > accordance to this coloration and does not see things how they truly > are then such a one can be said to be under the infuence of karma. > > What you described is that you have the humility to learn from > others and to see in them the same as what is in you. Perhaps it is > your lot in life to not have a Sat ("True") Guru, but rather to > awaken & develop love through your interactions with many people. > > The only thing I take expection to in your writing is the use of the > word "all". > > Is it possible that we could dig for a lifetime in a mine and not > find any trace of a diamond? Is is possilble that hundreds, > thousands of others have the same experience? And still is it > possible that another person may dig for 10 minutes and find a > diamond? > > Ashutosh, I do not know. But I am not willing to rule it out. > > What you describe about the way you live your life is beautiful. > And I thank you sincerely for sharing your wisdom here. > > Perhaps each aspect of wisdom, of love, that you have gleaned from > your encounters with others, the Guru you see in others, will one > day be before you in totality, embodied as your Sat-Guru, one who is > qualified to guide you beyond the limited view that the objects of > the senses provide. Or not, who can say for certain? I think it is > possible to be open to the possibility with out sacrificing one's > caution & reason. It is also possible that we may not consider some > one to be a Guru and actually may have a dislike for such a person > when such a one is Sat-Guru to another. > > Many today are called to wear a monk's robe, but to wear it "on the > inside" and cultivate themselves within society, to improve society > by merging with it, rather than in the seclusion of a cave or in the > woods. > > As described earlier it not the "label" that makes one who one is, > whether the label is self-imposed or given by others, nor is it a > particular uniform or dress. > > And those who wear the uniform and have the label may not be the > real deal. Again, we can "know a tree by its fruit." > > Namaste > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear friend, > > > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well > wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. > He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a > friend, and in many different ways. > > > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think > good and do good to more people around us and that too with total > honesty. > > > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on > any television channel in the morning and you will find them in > different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove > that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach > us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, > which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this > business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found > not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, > friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the > neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some > different perspectives of life everyday. > > > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be > touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers > to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is > not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make > several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co- > existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no > crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a > member of these sects or cults. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > temp_spk4 > > valist > > Saturday, 13 May, 2006 00:26 > > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > Ashutosh, > > > > I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all > these > > organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if > instead > > of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring > to > > just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making > a > > generalization. > > > > Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus > does not > > automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. > > Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in > the > > natal chart. > > > > If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and > was > > defrauded every time then such a person might state > that "astrology > > causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are > out for > > money" because that has been there experience. However, here we > know > > that this is not the case because we have had the experience > that > > astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help > others > > greatly with the knowledge they share. > > > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Das, > > > > > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You > have > > bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > > > > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions > were > > dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder > aeroplane. > > Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand > Margis, > > they had no evidence to book them. > > > > > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was > > personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun > manufacturing > > factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his > own > > private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > > > > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances > are > > well known. > > > > > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Das Goravani > > > valist > > > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > > > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Death > > > > > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain > and no > > struggle, > > > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional > she > > was actually > > > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for > days > > before. > > > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other > people > > in the > > > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that > you > > would think > > > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus > see > > Hanuman or > > > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There > is > > record of a > > > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of > seeing > > the Druids, > > > and so on. > > > > > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I > don't > > think it is > > > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course > not > > the horrific > > > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, > > shock sets in > > > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is > the > > friend of > > > the traumatized it seems. > > > > > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too > > difficult overall. > > > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that > the > > sentient > > > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and > > eventually into > > > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing > process. > > > > > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people > and > > animals, > > > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one > life > > that we all > > > live together for billions of years, as if we are going > somewhere > > together, > > > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and > now, > > with TV, > > > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, > as we > > learn to > > > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody > in my > > parents > > > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands > of > > them from my > > > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is > all > > very new. > > > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > The Proveable > > > > > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material > > nature itself. > > > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if > they > > don't > > > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or > life > > will perish, > > > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and > much > > much more. > > > > > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the > > unproveable. It is > > > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with > relgious > > theories. > > > > > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach > to > > see, know, > > > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the > > creation in which > > > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that > runs > > the > > > internet is well understood and all our messages are > reaching > > this list, so > > > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > > > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > > > > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and > each > > isolated > > > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for > example, > > in Ireland > > > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in > > India "Vishnu" etc. > > > > > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the > rituals. > > Certain > > > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and > > a "God" of some > > > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > > > > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures > try to > > harmonize > > > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > Abuse > > > > > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say > that > > one needs a > > > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something > similar...the > > idea that > > > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > > > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who > > perform the > > > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right > > guidance" for > > > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us > call it > > > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > > > > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the > Guru, > > or teacher, > > > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the > founder was > > > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and > in > > fact, they say > > > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than > God > > because > > > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers > you to > > God". > > > > > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not > questioned, > > he is > > > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > > > > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. > Cardinals > > have raised > > > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had > to > > defend their > > > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > > > > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first > day, > > he showed > > > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban > > Warfare Gun. > > > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing > > humans. It's > > > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, > > light, and > > > deadly. > > > > > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a > thing > > nor even > > > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the > > Guru". > > > > > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But > > nobody could > > > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked > Porsche > > cars and > > > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the > woman too. > > > > > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy > drove > > through our > > > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live > ammunition, > > from one > > > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, > whatever, > > and there > > > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. > I > > knew him well. > > > There is no other explanation. > > > > > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years > > later he > > > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our > lives. > > He had > > > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got > to > > waste > > > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets > on our > > Hare > > > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I > saw > > beyond it. > > > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > > > > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru > had > > these > > > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense > > always that > > > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take > measures. > > Finally the > > > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that > was > > just one of > > > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy > > events, that I > > > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel > too. > > Then > > > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been > > through a few > > > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > > > > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he > may > > also be the > > > path destroyer. > > > > > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to > hear > > your voice, > > > your song, your way, your lessons. > > > > > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to > be > > > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons > are > > really great. > > > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of > renunciation", > > as in the > > > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, > > really "the path to > > > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the > thing to > > emulate? > > > > > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty > much > > what I've > > > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other > > scriptures, always > > > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as > > well. Kindof > > > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know > thyself...and > > through > > > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but > if > > being > > > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own > real > > feelings, the > > > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in > a way > > wasted > > > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > : valist- > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > : valist- > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > <*> valist/ <*> valist <*> Your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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