Back to Cosmic Roots--Reply and query--more queries.

[Guest guest]

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

Dear Mr Desai and group,

 

Well we are going into more philosophical discussions now. I might

say whatever, from the thousands of books I may have read or heard

from the holy people (BTW though there are spiritual salesmen, thugs

and robbers, there are genuine holy men too)or the few experiences I

may have had. But now the discussion is entering a point where I

should not be really talking much.Trust me, I am not saying this to

avoid a discussion. One understands such things more by Sadhana than

by mere speculation or discussions or debates. While it is useful to

understand these things theoretically, beyond a point it can take the

mind away from the GOAL. Every answer will lead to further questions.

One could perhaps answer them easily with logic and an intelligent

approach. Millions have done it for very many ages. And you know

what, if we continue this discussion, a point WILL come when the

Bhakti siddhantins and Advaitins, the Buddhists and the Jains... all

scholars can go into hair-splitting arguments or discussions.

Brilliant scholars who combined in themselves the power of sadhana

with razor sharp logic, had already left enough matter for any

follower of any school of thought to put up a brilliant argument on

just one tiny aspect of a teaching. Probably those great spiritual

giants, the founders of various schools did what was their DHARMA for

those times. Each one had a PURPOSE. The Buddha had his own purpose

when he came. The Adi Sankaracharya had his own purpose too to fulfil

and so on. But the average follower takes things too seriously in his

over enthusiasm. The success of a particular school of thought, how

it refuted other schools and seems to have established the supremacy

of its own view/thought, at that point in time, is more due to the

PERSONALITY OF THE LEADER, the brilliance of his logic and his own

sadhana power than anything. It is sadhana that made them what they

were. Even KNOWLEDGE comes from SADHANA. As Swami Sivananda said, an

ounce of practice is far better than tons of theory. It is Swa-

Adhyaya and Satsanga that really help an aspirant to move an inch

towards better understanding. So I would urge all who are really

SERIOUS about spiritual matters to do this. Not that I consider

myself a teacher, just a friendly advice from one sadhak to

others.

 

And now I will very very briefly address Desaiji's queries from a

SCRIPTURAL POINT OF VIEW.

 

> Now, the big question is -- What leads to moksha? Does

> god take a unilateral decision in selecting which

> souls attain moksha? (moksha I understand to be freed

> from the cycle of birth and death and become one with

> god as Visti pointed out couple of days back).

 

 

GOD DOES NOT TAKE A UNILATERAL DECISION IN SELECTING WHICH SOULS

ATTAIN MOKSHA. The individual efforts matter largely. The Buddhist

schools generally put it fully on individual efforts. The Advaitins

also emphasise individual efforts with some scope for God's

intervention (varies depending on whose commentary you are

reading).The Bhakti siddhantins have given a unique place to God's

Grace (Kripa) where moksha is a result of both individual efforts as

well as Daiva Kripa. In fact His Grace can do more than anything

else.

 

In my answer above, I have given you a general idea broadly. But

there are sects and sub-sects and more, where they differ as to even

the nature of moksha as well as the means. It is not for me to

comment on any school of thought. I see it as a SPORT of the ONE.

Hasn't the One become Many (Back To Cosmic Roots)? All these

paradoxes are just a play of the ONE.

 

> And why would we all be talking about moksha and the

> means to achieve it if the cycle of birth and re-birth

> is going to continue till infinity? Thanks.

 

 

Well, not till infinity. But for many many births, perhaps thousands

if you are already there, or even millions. But dont you see that a

million lives of mine and yours are nothing when viewed against the

ten or twenty thousand billion years (the scientist's age of the

universe)of the Universe? Each birth and death is like a day and

night. Don't you sleep and get up again everyday, each day of your

life? Our existence is a mere moment in Eternity and our earth a

speck of dust in this the vast Universe. The mysteries of day and

night, life and death, and the cycle of seasons, are all elaborations

of the sport of Mahakala. Kala literally means 'Time' and Mahakala

(Great Time or Great Lord of Time)is the matrix of the Unborn. The

distinction between Kala and Mahakala, between manifest and

unmanifest time, is a great philosophical concept. Time and change

are rhythmic and this rhythmic nature is seen as a great dance, and

Shiva is depicted as Nataraj, the Lord of dancers, the Cosmic dancer.

 

 

> The human birth itself is suffering, there is no way

> to escape suffering then why be born again to reap the

> rewards of good deeds from prior life. -- how can one

> reap the rewards of past life good karma why the human

> life (by default) is suffering?

 

 

Good karmas can be reaped in HIGHER LOKAS as I stated earlier, where

the suffering is RELATIVELY less. But after exhausting the good

karmas, we are born on the earth to work out our salvation.Any birth

with a physical body and mind (not only human) implies some suffering

by its very nature. That is what this human birth is intended to do.

While affording a chance to liquidate karmic debts, it eventually

takes our mind to the NATURE OF THIS LIFE, ITS TRANSITORINESS AND

SUFFERING. Somewhere along the line, however little the spark of

knowledge catches.

 

 

"Where are all the riches of kings? Where are all the worlds

created

by Brahma? All these are destroyed and dissolved (in the eternal

process of Time). How can I have faith in all these things?

 

Millions of Indras have been swallowed up like bubbles in the ocean

of eternity. Wise men will laugh at me for my having pinned my faith

to earthly life.

 

Millions of Brahmas have passed away. Several cycles of creation have

elapsed. Kings of the earth have disappeared like particles of dust.

Where is the confidence then, in my life and its stability?"

 

(I.22-24, JANAKA GITA, Upashanti Prakarana, YOGA VASISHTA)

 

 

Once we start seeing this, life will NEVER be the same again! Instead

of fear, the above realisation can evoke awe, wonder and ecstasy! We

see the whole of existence as a sport, a lila, a cosmic play. And as

Swami Vivekananda said, we remember that great Sankhya philosophy

that, "`The whole of nature is for the soul, not the soul for

nature'. The very reason for nature's existence is the education of

the soul. It has no other meaning. It is there because the soul must

have knowledge, and through knowledge free itself. If we remember

this always, we shall never be attached to nature. We shall know that

nature is like a book we are to read, and that when we have gained

the required knowledge, the book is of no more value to us."

 

 

We take a 180 degree turn in our approach to life. We start walking

BACK, retracing the steps Back to the Cosmic Roots. SADHANA AWAKENS

THE FORGOTTEN MEMORY OF OUR UNITY WITH THE WHOLE, THAT WE ARE NOT THE

BODY, THAT WE ARE DEEPLY ROOTED IN THAT BLISSFUL, ETERNAL, DIVINE

COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS. THAT LIFE IS NO MORE A SUFFERING. PAIN? YES,

BUT NO SUFFERING. That all this beauty and splendor with apparent

paradoxes is the result of the sport of Nature, a Cosmic play, a

continuous dance towards order and perfection.

 

 

Time is the great force of change that drives all things to be born,

to grow, to transform and eventually to die. But beyond our limited

vision of manifest time, is eternity, which is the unmanifest time.

When we realize the ultimate truth of time itself, we merge into that

eternity.Herein lies the lesson of the malefics- change, growth and

transformation- a threefold lesson learnt through the hard

experiences of Time. Ultimately the malefics too are benefic, benefic

at least in their purpose. Their work is the grace of Mahakala.

Everything dissolves into Him. Glories to Mahakala! Glories to the

One that became the Many! Glories to One and All!

 

 

With this, I beg to remain away from further philosophical

discussions on Moksha, at least for the time being. Let us

concentrate on Swa-adhyaya, on Sadhana, on the actual practice and

not mere theory. For those who are interested in free downloads of

some excellent publications of the Divine Life Society (Swami

Sivananda), I would suggest the following link that I discovered some

months back. Try it. Many full books on various topics of interest

can be found here. Their books seem good because they have the right

mix of theory and practical suggestions quite often.

 

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/download.htm

 

Now we can get on with astrology discussions! Thanks to all those who

have written online as well as offline, giving their feedback.

 

Regards,

Satya

[Guest guest]

dear dr satya,

thanks i think you put the discussion to a fine end

i enjoyed it and i think mr desai has a very keen

mind to know more about the big picture seen by eyes

rather than to seek sutle nature of the one who sees

it.

i remind him to see the poem by kabir sent by one of

member.

one thing i will like to know how we know in present

day wich guru is fine as we see many and a common man

donot have any scale to measusre them.

certainly intelect say writing of raman maharishi.

vivekanand sivanand and more impresive but they are

gone as hinduism says

human body

intelect

and guru are the only three gift to seek unknown

reality of soul.

thanks again

rajinder

--- Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary

<satyaprakasika wrote:

> Aum Namah Shivaya

>

> Dear Mr Desai and group,

>

> Well we are going into more philosophical

> discussions now. I might

> say whatever, from the thousands of books I may have

> read or heard

> from the holy people (BTW though there are spiritual

> salesmen, thugs

> and robbers, there are genuine holy men too)or the

> few experiences I

> may have had. But now the discussion is entering a

> point where I

> should not be really talking much.Trust me, I am not

> saying this to

> avoid a discussion. One understands such things more

> by Sadhana than

> by mere speculation or discussions or debates. While

> it is useful to

> understand these things theoretically, beyond a

> point it can take the

> mind away from the GOAL. Every answer will lead to

> further questions.

> One could perhaps answer them easily with logic and

> an intelligent

> approach. Millions have done it for very many ages.

> And you know

> what, if we continue this discussion, a point WILL

> come when the

> Bhakti siddhantins and Advaitins, the Buddhists and

> the Jains... all

> scholars can go into hair-splitting arguments or

> discussions.

> Brilliant scholars who combined in themselves the

> power of sadhana

> with razor sharp logic, had already left enough

> matter for any

> follower of any school of thought to put up a

> brilliant argument on

> just one tiny aspect of a teaching. Probably those

> great spiritual

> giants, the founders of various schools did what was

> their DHARMA for

> those times. Each one had a PURPOSE. The Buddha had

> his own purpose

> when he came. The Adi Sankaracharya had his own

> purpose too to fulfil

> and so on. But the average follower takes things too

> seriously in his

> over enthusiasm. The success of a particular school

> of thought, how

> it refuted other schools and seems to have

> established the supremacy

> of its own view/thought, at that point in time, is

> more due to the

> PERSONALITY OF THE LEADER, the brilliance of his

> logic and his own

> sadhana power than anything. It is sadhana that made

> them what they

> were. Even KNOWLEDGE comes from SADHANA. As Swami

> Sivananda said, an

> ounce of practice is far better than tons of theory.

> It is Swa-

> Adhyaya and Satsanga that really help an aspirant to

> move an inch

> towards better understanding. So I would urge all

> who are really

> SERIOUS about spiritual matters to do this. Not that

> I consider

> myself a teacher, just a friendly advice from one

> sadhak to

> others.

>

> And now I will very very briefly address Desaiji's

> queries from a

> SCRIPTURAL POINT OF VIEW.

>

> > Now, the big question is -- What leads to moksha?

> Does

> > god take a unilateral decision in selecting which

> > souls attain moksha? (moksha I understand to be

> freed

> > from the cycle of birth and death and become one

> with

> > god as Visti pointed out couple of days back).

>

>

> GOD DOES NOT TAKE A UNILATERAL DECISION IN SELECTING

> WHICH SOULS

> ATTAIN MOKSHA. The individual efforts matter

> largely. The Buddhist

> schools generally put it fully on individual

> efforts. The Advaitins

> also emphasise individual efforts with some scope

> for God's

> intervention (varies depending on whose commentary

> you are

> reading).The Bhakti siddhantins have given a unique

> place to God's

> Grace (Kripa) where moksha is a result of both

> individual efforts as

> well as Daiva Kripa. In fact His Grace can do more

> than anything

> else.

>

> In my answer above, I have given you a general idea

> broadly. But

> there are sects and sub-sects and more, where they

> differ as to even

> the nature of moksha as well as the means. It is not

> for me to

> comment on any school of thought. I see it as a

> SPORT of the ONE.

> Hasn't the One become Many (Back To Cosmic Roots)?

> All these

> paradoxes are just a play of the ONE.

>

> > And why would we all be talking about moksha and

> the

> > means to achieve it if the cycle of birth and

> re-birth

> > is going to continue till infinity? Thanks.

>

>

> Well, not till infinity. But for many many births,

> perhaps thousands

> if you are already there, or even millions. But dont

> you see that a

> million lives of mine and yours are nothing when

> viewed against the

> ten or twenty thousand billion years (the

> scientist's age of the

> universe)of the Universe? Each birth and death is

> like a day and

> night. Don't you sleep and get up again everyday,

> each day of your

> life? Our existence is a mere moment in Eternity and

> our earth a

> speck of dust in this the vast Universe. The

> mysteries of day and

> night, life and death, and the cycle of seasons, are

> all elaborations

> of the sport of Mahakala. Kala literally means

> 'Time' and Mahakala

> (Great Time or Great Lord of Time)is the matrix of

> the Unborn. The

> distinction between Kala and Mahakala, between

> manifest and

> unmanifest time, is a great philosophical concept.

> Time and change

> are rhythmic and this rhythmic nature is seen as a

> great dance, and

> Shiva is depicted as Nataraj, the Lord of dancers,

> the Cosmic dancer.

>

>

> > The human birth itself is suffering, there is no

> way

> > to escape suffering then why be born again to reap

> the

> > rewards of good deeds from prior life. -- how can

> one

> > reap the rewards of past life good karma why the

> human

> > life (by default) is suffering?

>

>

> Good karmas can be reaped in HIGHER LOKAS as I

> stated earlier, where

> the suffering is RELATIVELY less. But after

> exhausting the good

> karmas, we are born on the earth to work out our

> salvation.Any birth

> with a physical body and mind (not only human)

> implies some suffering

> by its very nature. That is what this human birth is

> intended to do.

> While affording a chance to liquidate karmic debts,

> it eventually

> takes our mind to the NATURE OF THIS LIFE, ITS

> TRANSITORINESS AND

> SUFFERING. Somewhere along the line, however little

> the spark of

> knowledge catches.

>

>

> "Where are all the riches of kings? Where are all

> the worlds

> created

> by Brahma? All these are destroyed and dissolved (in

> the eternal

> process of Time). How can I have faith in all these

> things?

>

> Millions of Indras have been swallowed up like

> bubbles in the ocean

> of eternity. Wise men will laugh at me for my having

> pinned my faith

> to earthly life.

>

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

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