Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Dear Dr. SP Choudhary: This is the finest interpretation of the central idea of Bhagwad Geeta I've read so far. You do however get entangled in the LITERAL interpretation and that create more questions than answers. I'm going to point your attention to one paragraph from your e-mail that I've posted below: "Misery is not natural to the Jiva. It comes to experience a state of misery because of its association with a body. a. So the cause of misery is a body b. The body (birth) is due to karma (previous actions) c. Karma arises from attachment and hate, by preference to certain objects and aversion to some. d. Attachment and hate arise from Egoism (sense of `I' and `Mine') e. This Egoism comes from indiscrimination. f. Indiscrimination, from ignorance of your true nature, that you are one with the Brahman Any of the reasons cited (in various contexts) as being the motivation for rebirth, are all covered under some stage of the above- explained process. For instance take the desire for something as a cause of birth as some members were discussing in earlier posts. It is already covered in point C. "Karma arises from attachment and hate, by preference to certain objects and aversion to some". So the desire to "enjoy more whiskey" is nothing but an attachment, a preference for a particular object. So this results in Karma (Karma can be mental, verbal or actual deed (thought, word and deed). Karma results in birth. So in that sense your desire makes you take birth again." You say that re-birth occurs due to Karma and also your desires. I'm under the impressiong that ONLY BAD-Karma lead to re-birth to suffer for the sins of previous birth. You seem to say that just because there is karma, there is going to be re-birth. How can one exist in a family life and in society without karma? Hey, I have to go to my office and work so that I can take care of my family, I just can't run away in the jungle, sit under a tree and chant the name of god and expect moksha. Shri Krishna specifically asked us humans to do our karma, whatever form the karma takes--may it be caring for your children or having sex with you wife or earning a living. The zest of Shri Krishna's teachings it that the Karma's have tobe righteous karma meanning--don't hurt other people's childern in order to care for you own, don't have sex with someone else's wife or don't put other out of a job while earning your own living. You also say that "your desire make you take birth again." I have no idea what this means, if we are born as humans, we most definitely are going to have desire. I'm fasting today and I desire food more than anything else, does me desire for food make me take re-birth? I don't think so. If I steal food to fulfil my desire, then maybe I'll have a re-birth just to suffer for my sin. Hey, I desire good Scoth whiskey and I drink it and I sit down with friend and reminisce. Why would this result in re-birth. However, if I were to drink whiskey and beat the crap out of my wife and kids then offcourse I'd be born again to pay for my bad karma. I have no control over my desire. Just becuase I'm born a human, I desire. Now desire leads to karma and there I have a choice of doing bad karma or good karma. -- and here lies the reason for re-birth. I'm going to print out your e-mail, read it tonight and more later. Thank you once more for this comprehensive interpretation of Bhagwad Geeta. -- The thugs wearing orange clothes and exploiting the financial, emotional and spiritual aspects of the multitutes should be asked the interpretation. No, these thugs should be put in jail or run off somewhere--man, I really despise these holy men and women. MD --- Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary <satyaprakasika wrote: > Aum Namah Shivaya > > BACK TO COSMIC ROOTS > > > He who knows the inverted Peepal tree, with roots in > the Primal > Being, whose trunk is Brahma, and whose leaves are > the Karmas, is a > knower of the Real Meaning of the Vedas" > > --- Lord Krishna, > Sloka-1, chapter 15, > Bhagawad Gita. > > > As a child, I often wondered what lies beyond the > sky. At school > when I came to know of the Solar system, I wondered > what lies beyond > the solar system and if there are other solar > systems, what lies > beyond them; if there are other universes beyond > this one … It would > go on forever. Every night whenever I was allowed > to go up on to the > terrace, I would lie on my back and watch the stars, > wondering where > this immense Universe came from. As children, some > of us would have > questioned the origins of existence. > > There is nothing that does not have a mother. > Everything in the > world whether a living being, a form of Nature, or > an idea has been > generated from another being, form or idea. This > generative process > goes back indefinitely, prompting one to ask: who > or what is the > first mother? This search for a definite starting > point is like > peeling an Onion layer by layer, until one finally > reaches the center > where nothing is there except the same empty space > that surrounds and > maintains the entire onion. > > The ultimate Reality – the mother of all that is, is > beyond all form, > words, thoughts and names. All notions of space and > time, in fact > the very mind dissolves into a primordial pool that > is unfathomable. > But man always tries to know the unknown through the > known and has > tried to understand that which is beyond the mind > through the mind. > The Sad darsanas (6 systems of philosophy) explain > the concept of > creation from various viewpoints. Apart from these, > the various > schools of Saiva and Sakta Tantras also explain the > concept of > creation. In essence, all these schools of thought > explain the > same. At root all are similar, the external > differences being only > due to the various angles from which they approach. > > The ultimate reality, the core of all things and all > Beings is beyond > words, thoughts and description. The seers called > it by various > names – Param Shiva, Brahman, Pure Consciousness and > Cosmic > consciousness. Call it what you want to, but it is > the eternal ocean > in which the countless universes arise as waves; the > boundless space > within which everything is born, grows and dies; the > source of all > things, the substratum upon which all things appear, > the one and only > reality which is unproduced, indestructible, > motionless, eternal, all- > pervading and beyond time and space. It is a > veritable zero of > vibrationless equilibrium. > > While the details differ, most of these schools of > thought have > something in common. Most Indian schools (Hindu > schools to be > precise) are at root vedic. What do the Vedic seers > say about the > universe? For that I have to tell you a story. > > I will tell you a story, the story of the universe – > how it was born, > how it evolved and how the various forms that we see > today came to > be. In the beginning, long back, in a far-off > period, there was > neither the sky nor atmosphere above, neither death > nor immortality, > there was neither the Sun nor Earth, nor day, nor > night, nor light, > nor darkness, neither naught nor aught. There > existed only the One > without a second. The whole universe existed in an > invisible, subtle > and unmanifested state. What we see today and call > the earth, the > sun, the moon, the stars and the sky was then, only > formless matter > in its most elemental and compressed form. That One > alone, non- > being, without a second, the ancient vedic seers > called it, > the "Hiranyagarbha" – the womb of light. This > cosmic womb was all > that existed. > > The condition of what we call matter today, in the > Hiranyagarbha, was > in its most elemental form, as Infinite Space > (Akasha). In this > etheric state, there was an intense vibration, > (spanda) which gave it > so much dynamism, that it resulted in luminosity and > expansion. Thus > there arose light where there was formerly no light. > > Now the scientist tells us something similar, that > there was a time, > nearly ten or twenty thousand billion years ago when > the universe was > infinitesimally small and infinitely dense. Then > there was a "Big > Bang" and ever since, the universe is expanding. At > the big bang > itself, the universe is thought to have had zero > size, and so > infinitely hot. But as the universe expanded, the > temperature of the > radiation decreased. As it cooled, atoms were > formed which combined > to form molecules. After many more events, at > regions that were > slightly denser than average, the expansion would > have slowed down, > caused them to start to re-collapse, spin fast, and > eventually give > birth to galaxies. > > As time went on the atoms within the clouds of gases > started > colliding with one another increasing the > temperature, eventually > starting nuclear reactions. The heat given off > would raise the > pressure and thereby stop the clouds from > contracting any further. > They would remain stable in this state for a long > time as Stars or > Suns, burning Hydrogen into Helium and radiating the > resulting energy > as heat and light. The outer regions of the star > may sometimes get > blown off in a tremendous explosion called a > Supernova. The debris > or dust of such a stellar explosion forms many more > second or third > generation suns (stars). Our own Sun was formed > some five thousand > billion years ago out of a cloud of rotating gas > containing the > debris of earlier supernovas. Most of the gas in > that cloud went to > form the Sun or got blown away, but a small amount > of the heavier > elements collected together to form the bodies that > now orbit the Sun > as planets, like the Earth. > > Initially the earth was very hot and without an > atmosphere. In the > course of time, it cooled and acquired an atmosphere > from the > omission of gases from the rocks. Gradually life > evolved in the > oceans some three million years back as > macromolecules, then single > celled organisms and slowly multi-cellular > organisms. Then the first > amphibian stepped on land, then the reptiles, birds > and mammals, till > eventually man came into being. > > This in short, is the story of the Universe, how it > came === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 AUM NAMAH SHIVAYA Dear MD, >You say that re-birth occurs due to Karma and also your desires. I'm >under the impression that ONLY BAD-Karma lead to re-birth to suffer >for the sins of previous birth. A GOLDEN CHAIN OR AN IRON CHAIN, BOTH ARE CHAINS. "A golden chain can shackle you as much as an iron chain" . Karma, whether good or bad, can bring you back again. The texts and commentaries are clear on this (not only Hindu, even Jain and Buddhist for that matter). If you do good karmas, you come back to enjoy the results of good karma. At the best, you will go to various lokas or higher worlds and live there for a period till you have reaped the results of the good karmas. But again you are born to work out your salvation. The idea that only bad karma results in birth is a misunderstanding. There is NO such thing that the law of karma exists to PUNISH YOU for your bad deeds! It is a natural law that has no preference for good and bad. Put simply, you just reap what you sow. Sow good seeds and you shall reap good results. That is why we are asked to rise beyond both good and bad. >How can one exist in a family life and in society without karma? >Hey, I have to go to my office and work so that I can take care of >my family, I just can't run away in the jungle, sit under a tree and >chant the name of god and expect moksha. That is a good question. It is impossible to run away from the society. No human being can ever remain without karma. Bound by Prakriti (Nature), man is forced to do karma by the three gunas (Sattva, Rajas, Tamas). Our Prakriti will makes us do karma. Karma is three fold. First there arises a desire. Then you will think of how to get it. Then you exert to attain it. Desire, thought and action always go together. So thought itself is subtle karma, the seed of karma. Karma can be done through the mind (thought), speech (words/verbal) and the body (the actual act). These are three threads, which make the rope of karma that binds all men. Hence even if a man is inactive and refrains from action, he may still be doing karma at a thought level. As long as thoughts are there, karma is being done. A man may be acting, but mentally he may not have sense of agency, in which case karma cannot bind him. This is the essence of the Gita sloka, "He who sees action in inaction, and inaction in action, is a `Yogi'". Seeing, hearing, talking, thinking, etc. are all Karmas. We are constantly performing karma through the mind, speech and body in all the three states of dreaming, sleeping and walking. There can be no state in which a man is not performing karma. Instead of running away from action, one should instead, give up all SENSE OF AGENCY, the IDENTIFICATION with Karmas. If you write a cheque for a hundred thousand rupees and do not sign it, is it valid? No, because your signature is not there. Similarly if you do not put your signature on the actions, they cannot bind you. In other words, you can act, but do not be attached to the result. Do it without any sense of agency, with a Nimita Bhava. Surrendering oneself to God, if one acts without any attachment to the results, the Karmas do not bind him. The sense of `I', `mine' and self-identification are your signature. When you do any karma without your signature, it is not going to bind you. This again brings us to point D of my earlier post. Remember "d.) Attachment and hate arise from Egoism (sense of `I' and `Mine')"? It is this "I" that holds the key to all problems. Understanding this "I" is the essence of Gnana (Ramana Maharshi's "Who am I" for instance). In fact that loop of six points that I gave as the cause (process as well) for repeated births is the distilled essence of a highly acclaimed text "Laghu Vasudeva Mananam". In my articles/posts I just make a rosary of the beads collected from the essence of various texts, commentaries, or teachings of great saints. There is nothing new in what I write. My originality lies only in how I weave the garland/rosary and also the choice of the beads. But the beads are all already there. But normally in such posts I do not give references and notes, as it can be cumbersome and also spoils the flow. And now back to what we were discussing… So can one really go beyond karma? As Swami Sivananda said, one can go beyond the ***results of karma. "Attaining knowledge of Brahman or the Eternal, destroys the whole lot of Sanchita karma. It can be greatly modified by entertaining lofty, divine thoughts, and doing virtuous actions. Agami karma can be destroyed by expiatory rites or Prayaschitta, and by removing the idea of agency through Nimitta Bhava (attitude that one is an instrument in the hands of God) and Sakshi Bhava (attitude that one is silent witness of the actions of the senses and the mind)". Even Ramana Maharshi clearly advocates Sakshi bhava. Almost all his conversations directly or indirectly reflect this. Whether you follow the path of Gnana (like Ramana Maharshi's "Who am I") or whether you follow the Bhakti ( devotion) marga, the essence is the same. Either you surrender all sense of agency and remain an instrument (Nimitta matra) as in the case of a devotee (bhakta), or you become a silent witness of the action of the senses and the mind (sakshi: witness) if you follow the Upanisadic path of discrimination. While the bhakti path is easier and suitable to most (at least in Kali yuga), the direct path of discrimination requires a higher degree of maturity or maybe even a specific bent of mind. JK's (Jiddu Krishnamurti) work too is similar to the Upanisadic path of Gnana, the path of discrimination. It stresses more on AWARENESS, which is another way of teaching the Sakshi bhava. And so do certain schools of Buddhism. Guess I have to stop now as otherwise, this reply/post too will become more like an article! I will end it with a few extracts from Swami Vivekananda's complete works. He interprets Karma yoga in the best manner. "Be unattached. Let things work; let brain centers work; work incessantly, but let not a ripple conquer the mind. Work as if you were a stranger in this land, a sojourner. Work incessantly, but do not bind yourself. Bondage is terrible. This world is not our habitation. It is only one of the many stages through which we are passing. Remember that great Sankhya philosophy, `The whole of nature is for the soul, not the soul for nature'. The very reason for nature's existence is the education of the soul. It has no other meaning. It is there because the soul must have knowledge, and through knowledge free itself. If we remember this always, we shall never be attached to nature. We shall know that nature is like a book we are to read, and that when we have gained the required knowledge, the book is of no more value to us." "Work like a master and not like a slave. Work incessantly, but do not do a slave's work. Do you not see how everybody works? Nobody can be altogether at rest. Ninety nine percent of mankind work like slaves, and the result is misery. It is all selfish work. Work through freedom! Work through love! The word love is very difficult to understand. Love never comes until there is freedom. There is no true love possible in the slave." "He works best who works without any motive- neither for money, nor for fame, nor for anything else. And when a man can do that, he will be a Buddha, and out of him will come the power to work in such a manner as will transform the world. This man represents the very highest ideal of karma yoga". ………Well my dear friend. THAT IS KARMA YOGA! Salutations to all the sages to whom we remain indebted for their revelations! Salutations to all! Salutations again and again to the ONE that manifests in ALL! SP vedic astrology, md <monmuk111> wrote: > Dear Dr. SP Choudhary: > > This is the finest interpretation of the central idea > of Bhagwad Geeta I've read so far. You do however get > entangled in the LITERAL interpretation and that > create more questions than answers. > > I'm going to point your attention to one paragraph > from your e-mail that I've posted below: > > "Misery is not natural to the Jiva. It comes to > experience a state of misery because of its > association with a body. > > a. So the cause of misery is a body > b. The body (birth) is due to karma (previous > actions) > c. Karma arises from attachment and hate, by > preference to > certain objects and aversion to some. > d. Attachment and hate arise from Egoism (sense > of `I' > and `Mine') > e. This Egoism comes from indiscrimination. > f. Indiscrimination, from ignorance of your true > nature, that > you are one with the Brahman > > Any of the reasons cited (in various contexts) as > being the > motivation for rebirth, are all covered under some > stage of the above- > explained process. For instance take the desire for > something as a > cause of birth as some members were discussing in > earlier posts. It > is already covered in point C. "Karma arises from > attachment and > hate, by preference to certain objects and aversion to > some". So the > desire to "enjoy more whiskey" is nothing but an > attachment, a > preference for a particular object. So this results in > Karma (Karma > can be mental, verbal or actual deed (thought, word > and deed). Karma > results in birth. So in that sense your desire makes > you take birth > again." > > You say that re-birth occurs due to Karma and also > your desires. I'm under the impressiong that ONLY > BAD-Karma lead to re-birth to suffer for the sins of > previous birth. > > You seem to say that just because there is karma, > there is going to be re-birth. How can one exist in a > family life and in society without karma? Hey, I have > to go to my office and work so that I can take care of > my family, I just can't run away in the jungle, sit > under a tree and chant the name of god and expect > moksha. > > Shri Krishna specifically asked us humans to do our > karma, whatever form the karma takes--may it be caring > for your children or having sex with you wife or > earning a living. > > The zest of Shri Krishna's teachings it that the > Karma's have tobe righteous karma meanning--don't hurt > other people's childern in order to care for you own, > don't have sex with someone else's wife or don't put > other out of a job while earning your own living. > > You also say that "your desire make you take birth > again." I have no idea what this means, if we are born > as humans, we most definitely are going to have > desire. I'm fasting today and I desire food more than > anything else, does me desire for food make me take > re-birth? I don't think so. If I steal food to fulfil > my desire, then maybe I'll have a re-birth just to > suffer for my sin. Hey, I desire good Scoth whiskey > and I drink it and I sit down with friend and > reminisce. Why would this result in re-birth. However, > if I were to drink whiskey and beat the crap out of my > wife and kids then offcourse I'd be born again to pay > for my bad karma. > > I have no control over my desire. Just becuase I'm > born a human, I desire. Now desire leads to karma and > there I have a choice of doing bad karma or good > karma. -- and here lies the reason for re-birth. > > I'm going to print out your e-mail, read it tonight > and more later. Thank you once more for this > comprehensive interpretation of Bhagwad Geeta. -- The > thugs wearing orange clothes and exploiting the > financial, emotional and spiritual aspects of the > multitutes should be asked the interpretation. No, > these thugs should be put in jail or run off > somewhere--man, I really despise these holy men and > women. > > MD > > > > --- Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary > <satyaprakasika> wrote: > > Aum Namah Shivaya > > > > BACK TO COSMIC ROOTS > > > > > > He who knows the inverted Peepal tree, with roots in > > the Primal > > Being, whose trunk is Brahma, and whose leaves are > > the Karmas, is a > > knower of the Real Meaning of the Vedas" > > > > --- Lord Krishna, > > Sloka-1, chapter 15, > > Bhagawad Gita. > > > > > > As a child, I often wondered what lies beyond the > > sky. At school > > when I came to know of the Solar system, I wondered > > what lies beyond > > the solar system and if there are other solar > > systems, what lies > > beyond them; if there are other universes beyond > > this one … It would > > go on forever. Every night whenever I was allowed > > to go up on to the > > terrace, I would lie on my back and watch the stars, > > wondering where > > this immense Universe came from. As children, some > > of us would have > > questioned the origins of existence. > > > > There is nothing that does not have a mother. > > Everything in the > > world whether a living being, a form of Nature, or > > an idea has been > > generated from another being, form or idea. This > > generative process > > goes back indefinitely, prompting one to ask: who > > or what is the > > first mother? This search for a definite starting > > point is like > > peeling an Onion layer by layer, until one finally > > reaches the center > > where nothing is there except the same empty space > > that surrounds and > > maintains the entire onion. > > > > The ultimate Reality – the mother of all that is, is > > beyond all form, > > words, thoughts and names. All notions of space and > > time, in fact > > the very mind dissolves into a primordial pool that > > is unfathomable. > > But man always tries to know the unknown through the > > known and has > > tried to understand that which is beyond the mind > > through the mind. > > The Sad darsanas (6 systems of philosophy) explain > > the concept of > > creation from various viewpoints. Apart from these, > > the various > > schools of Saiva and Sakta Tantras also explain the > > concept of > > creation. In essence, all these schools of thought > > explain the > > same. At root all are similar, the external > > differences being only > > due to the various angles from which they approach. > > > > The ultimate reality, the core of all things and all > > Beings is beyond > > words, thoughts and description. The seers called > > it by various > > names – Param Shiva, Brahman, Pure Consciousness and > > Cosmic > > consciousness. Call it what you want to, but it is > > the eternal ocean > > in which the countless universes arise as waves; the > > boundless space > > within which everything is born, grows and dies; the > > source of all > > things, the substratum upon which all things appear, > > the one and only > > reality which is unproduced, indestructible, > > motionless, eternal, all- > > pervading and beyond time and space. It is a > > veritable zero of > > vibrationless equilibrium. > > > > While the details differ, most of these schools of > > thought have > > something in common. Most Indian schools (Hindu > > schools to be > > precise) are at root vedic. What do the Vedic seers > > say about the > > universe? For that I have to tell you a story. > > > > I will tell you a story, the story of the universe – > > how it was born, > > how it evolved and how the various forms that we see > > today came to > > be. In the beginning, long back, in a far-off > > period, there was > > neither the sky nor atmosphere above, neither death > > nor immortality, > > there was neither the Sun nor Earth, nor day, nor > > night, nor light, > > nor darkness, neither naught nor aught. There > > existed only the One > > without a second. The whole universe existed in an > > invisible, subtle > > and unmanifested state. What we see today and call > > the earth, the > > sun, the moon, the stars and the sky was then, only > > formless matter > > in its most elemental and compressed form. That One > > alone, non- > > being, without a second, the ancient vedic seers > > called it, > > the "Hiranyagarbha" – the womb of light. This > > cosmic womb was all > > that existed. > > > > The condition of what we call matter today, in the > > Hiranyagarbha, was > > in its most elemental form, as Infinite Space > > (Akasha). In this > > etheric state, there was an intense vibration, > > (spanda) which gave it > > so much dynamism, that it resulted in luminosity and > > expansion. Thus > > there arose light where there was formerly no light. > > > > Now the scientist tells us something similar, that > > there was a time, > > nearly ten or twenty thousand billion years ago when > > the universe was > > infinitesimally small and infinitely dense. Then > > there was a "Big > > Bang" and ever since, the universe is expanding. At > > the big bang > > itself, the universe is thought to have had zero > > size, and so > > infinitely hot. But as the universe expanded, the > > temperature of the > > radiation decreased. As it cooled, atoms were > > formed which combined > > to form molecules. After many more events, at > > regions that were > > slightly denser than average, the expansion would > > have slowed down, > > caused them to start to re-collapse, spin fast, and > > eventually give > > birth to galaxies. > > > > As time went on the atoms within the clouds of gases > > started > > colliding with one another increasing the > > temperature, eventually > > starting nuclear reactions. The heat given off > > would raise the > > pressure and thereby stop the clouds from > > contracting any further. > > They would remain stable in this state for a long > > time as Stars or > > Suns, burning Hydrogen into Helium and radiating the > > resulting energy > > as heat and light. The outer regions of the star > > may sometimes get > > blown off in a tremendous explosion called a > > Supernova. The debris > > or dust of such a stellar explosion forms many more > > second or third > > generation suns (stars). Our own Sun was formed > > some five thousand > > billion years ago out of a cloud of rotating gas > > containing the > > debris of earlier supernovas. Most of the gas in > > that cloud went to > > form the Sun or got blown away, but a small amount > > of the heavier > > elements collected together to form the bodies that > > now orbit the Sun > > as planets, like the Earth. > > > > Initially the earth was very hot and without an > > atmosphere. In the > > course of time, it cooled and acquired an atmosphere > > from the > > omission of gases from the rocks. Gradually life > > evolved in the > > oceans some three million years back as > > macromolecules, then single > > celled organisms and slowly multi-cellular > > organisms. Then the first > > amphibian stepped on land, then the reptiles, birds > > and mammals, till > > eventually man came into being. > > > > This in short, is the story of the Universe, how it > > came > === message truncated === > > > > > Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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