Ishta Devata Misconceptions

September 13, 2002

Namaste friends,

I will address the few misconceptions I have seen on the list today

regarding ishta devata:

(1) "Ishta devata worship immediately brings moksha."

No, ishta devata worship is a catalyst that accelerates the process

of moksha. It does not guarantee instant moksha. Even if one worships

the ishta devata everyday, it may still take many lives to get

moksha. It all depends on the evolution of that particular soul.

Worship of ishta devata helps one in learning the lessons fast and in

overcoming desires. It is only a catalyst. One's mind still has to

learn the lessons and travel the whole path.

(2) "One who does not worship ishta devata cannot get moksha."

No, ishta devata worship is only a catalyst that accelerates the

process of moksha. It helps one in learning the lessons of life fast.

Even without this catalyst, one can still learn the lessons of life

fast.

(3) "Monotheism and Hinduism are at loggerheads."

Monotheism is not a new concept for Hinduism. Hindu Sages taught that

God is nirguna (nirguna parabrahman). Nirguna means formless. God is

all pervading as aakasa tattva (ether) and he has no form. The great

Jupiter among planets represents aakasa tattva and hence the nirguna

(formless) expression of God.

Worship of Nirguna Parabrahman is considered the most supreme form of

worship in Hinduism, but it is considered to be apt only for highly

advanced souls. If you recognize the formless nature of The Supreme

Soul and yet ask very mundane desires when praying to Him, what good

is it?

Though the Supreme Soul is formless, it CAN manifest in many forms.

You can worship those specific forms too. Hinduism has an elaborate

description of these forms. This does not mean that the ONENESS and

the formlessness of God are questioned.

(4) "Monotheistic religions cannot have ishta devata worship"

This is wrong too. Hindus worship deities, sages and saints, though

they recognize the oneness and the formlessness of God. So can people

of other religions do. It is a misconception to think that

worshipping the individual forms in which God manifested Himself is

somehow wrong. Isn't Christ a saguna (having a form) manifestation of

God? Isn't Mother Mary a manifestation of divinity? Aren't the great

saints of christianity who brought the divine teachings to masses a

manifestation of divinity? What is wrong in praying to them?

Similarly, Sikhs have some great gurus who are the manifestations of

God for the followers of Sikhism. There is nothing wrong in praying

to them.

I am not knowledgable about Islam, but Allah is perhaps the

equivalent of the Nirguna Parabrahman of Hinduism. But there are so

many great saints and fakirs in Islam, who must've been born with

some divinity in them.

Whenever God sends somebody to establish an order of spirituality, He

manifests Himself in various forms filled with the energies of

various planets, to show the way to people of various inclinations.

Irrespective of which religion you are talking about, there will be

different deities, saints, angels etc (basically formful expressions

of the formless divinity) that correspond to the nine planets. The

real God aakasa tattva (formless ether). The planets have bodies and

they represent His formful expressions.

We have to map planets to these divine forms. For Hindus, this task

has already been done. As for other religions, it is upto learned

Vedic astrologers following these religions to carefully study the

teachings of their religion and classify. If learned scholars of

Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism attempt

this task for their own religions, I will be delighted!

In case the main point is lost, I will stress it again. The concept

of finding an ideal deity or saint or angel whose divine energies

will help one in getting rid of desires does not amount to

polytheism. You can seek the blessings of a particular prophet or

saint and yet believe in the oneness of Allah. I hope I am clear.

(5) "Worship of other deities is a waste of time"

Moksha is only one of the 4 purposes in life. One has to follow

dharma, artha and kama. If any unfinished karma is left related to

those purusharthas, one can NOT get moksha.

Worship of various deities (or forms of God) gets blessings in

various areas of life. If you sincerely pray to any deity, the prayer

will never do you any harm. But the worship of ishta devata will take

you a long way in finishing the unfinished karma, getting a true

perspective of the lessons of life and in overcoming desires of all

kinds.

(6) "Moksha comes from leading a good and truthful life"

Well, that is dharma (dutifullness and righteousness). Dharma too is

needed in life, but moksha is different. Moksha is lack of desires.

Lack of desires comes only when one understands the true nature of

self (soul) and the the oneness of divinity to which one's soul

belongs. How else can all desires disappear?

Ishta devata's worship, leading a truthful life all help in that long

process, but neither is sufficient. Moksha is not an easy thing to

get.

LAST REMARK:

Finally, we don't need religious intolerance on this list. No

religion teaches hatred, intolerance and unkindness as the virtues of

a religious person. Though there are many religions in this world of

Kali Yuga, they all have very similar strands of thought behind them.

A casual observer may see disharmony, but a careful critic will see

really similar strands of harmonious thought behind all religions.

After all, there is only one God and each religion was started by

somebody HE sent.

Let us be kind, compassionate, understanding and respectful to each

other.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

September 13, 2002

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear group,

Anybody with sufficient knowledge of Hinduism will heartily agree

with what Sri Narasimha has written. Initially I typed out a long

reply addressing some of the posts. When I finished and was going to

post the reply, I realised that Sri Narasimha had already addressed

most of the points. So I decided to exclude the points he had already

discussed. It is important for a student to learn clearly the

foundations of the Vedic and Tantric paradigm so that certain issues

like 'desire being the cause of birth' and other questions on ishta

devata, sadhana, remedial measures etc can be resolved clearly.

Sometimes an over-zealous student in his enthusiasm can unknowingly

misrepresent the ideas in his attempt to answer some questions. I

have already posted on Remedial measures and Sacred myth. In

addition, I am posting another on the Vedic/tantric view of the world

and some basics of the tantric path. I might post another later if I

feel like writing more on this. Reading this article, might help a

beginner to appreciate the remedies of ishta devata, yantra, mantra

etc chosen by a jyotishi. Sri Sanjay ji's remedies reflect a deep

knowledge (theoretical as well as practical)of the workings of

Tantra. Choosing the remedies carefully is a scientific process in

its own right. The article also explains some basics of the Indian

way of thinking. Please read the next post for more....

Regards,

Satya

vedic astrology, "pvr108" <pvr@c...> wrote:

> Namaste friends,

>

> I will address the few misconceptions I have seen on the list today

> regarding ishta devata:

>

> (1) "Ishta devata worship immediately brings moksha."

>

> No, ishta devata worship is a catalyst that accelerates the process

> of moksha. It does not guarantee instant moksha. Even if one

worships

> the ishta devata everyday, it may still take many lives to get

> moksha. It all depends on the evolution of that particular soul.

>

> Worship of ishta devata helps one in learning the lessons fast and

in

> overcoming desires. It is only a catalyst. One's mind still has to

> learn the lessons and travel the whole path.

>

> (2) "One who does not worship ishta devata cannot get moksha."

>

> No, ishta devata worship is only a catalyst that accelerates the

> process of moksha. It helps one in learning the lessons of life

fast.

> Even without this catalyst, one can still learn the lessons of life

> fast.

>

> (3) "Monotheism and Hinduism are at loggerheads."

>

> Monotheism is not a new concept for Hinduism. Hindu Sages taught

that

> God is nirguna (nirguna parabrahman). Nirguna means formless. God

is

> all pervading as aakasa tattva (ether) and he has no form. The

great

> Jupiter among planets represents aakasa tattva and hence the

nirguna

> (formless) expression of God.

>

> Worship of Nirguna Parabrahman is considered the most supreme form

of

> worship in Hinduism, but it is considered to be apt only for highly

> advanced souls. If you recognize the formless nature of The Supreme

> Soul and yet ask very mundane desires when praying to Him, what

good

> is it?

>

> Though the Supreme Soul is formless, it CAN manifest in many forms.

> You can worship those specific forms too. Hinduism has an elaborate

> description of these forms. This does not mean that the ONENESS and

> the formlessness of God are questioned.

>

> (4) "Monotheistic religions cannot have ishta devata worship"

>

> This is wrong too. Hindus worship deities, sages and saints, though

> they recognize the oneness and the formlessness of God. So can

people

> of other religions do. It is a misconception to think that

> worshipping the individual forms in which God manifested Himself is

> somehow wrong. Isn't Christ a saguna (having a form) manifestation

of

> God? Isn't Mother Mary a manifestation of divinity? Aren't the

great

> saints of christianity who brought the divine teachings to masses a

> manifestation of divinity? What is wrong in praying to them?

>

> Similarly, Sikhs have some great gurus who are the manifestations

of

> God for the followers of Sikhism. There is nothing wrong in praying

> to them.

>

> I am not knowledgable about Islam, but Allah is perhaps the

> equivalent of the Nirguna Parabrahman of Hinduism. But there are so

> many great saints and fakirs in Islam, who must've been born with

> some divinity in them.

>

> Whenever God sends somebody to establish an order of spirituality,

He

> manifests Himself in various forms filled with the energies of

> various planets, to show the way to people of various inclinations.

> Irrespective of which religion you are talking about, there will be

> different deities, saints, angels etc (basically formful

expressions

> of the formless divinity) that correspond to the nine planets. The

> real God aakasa tattva (formless ether). The planets have bodies

and

> they represent His formful expressions.

>

> We have to map planets to these divine forms. For Hindus, this task

> has already been done. As for other religions, it is upto learned

> Vedic astrologers following these religions to carefully study the

> teachings of their religion and classify. If learned scholars of

> Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism attempt

> this task for their own religions, I will be delighted!

>

> In case the main point is lost, I will stress it again. The concept

> of finding an ideal deity or saint or angel whose divine energies

> will help one in getting rid of desires does not amount to

> polytheism. You can seek the blessings of a particular prophet or

> saint and yet believe in the oneness of Allah. I hope I am clear.

>

> (5) "Worship of other deities is a waste of time"

>

> Moksha is only one of the 4 purposes in life. One has to follow

> dharma, artha and kama. If any unfinished karma is left related to

> those purusharthas, one can NOT get moksha.

>

> Worship of various deities (or forms of God) gets blessings in

> various areas of life. If you sincerely pray to any deity, the

prayer

> will never do you any harm. But the worship of ishta devata will

take

> you a long way in finishing the unfinished karma, getting a true

> perspective of the lessons of life and in overcoming desires of all

> kinds.

>

> (6) "Moksha comes from leading a good and truthful life"

>

> Well, that is dharma (dutifullness and righteousness). Dharma too

is

> needed in life, but moksha is different. Moksha is lack of desires.

> Lack of desires comes only when one understands the true nature of

> self (soul) and the the oneness of divinity to which one's soul

> belongs. How else can all desires disappear?

>

> Ishta devata's worship, leading a truthful life all help in that

long

> process, but neither is sufficient. Moksha is not an easy thing to

> get.

>

> LAST REMARK:

>

> Finally, we don't need religious intolerance on this list. No

> religion teaches hatred, intolerance and unkindness as the virtues

of

> a religious person. Though there are many religions in this world

of

> Kali Yuga, they all have very similar strands of thought behind

them.

> A casual observer may see disharmony, but a careful critic will see

> really similar strands of harmonious thought behind all religions.

> After all, there is only one God and each religion was started by

> somebody HE sent.

>

> Let us be kind, compassionate, understanding and respectful to each

> other.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

September 13, 2002

aum namo bhagavate vasudevaya

dear narsimha,

a small clarification

you said "the worship of nirguna parabrahman is supreme" can you

quote in which scriputre it is written.

even jagadguru adisankaracharya ( the shaktyavesh avtar of lord

shiva) who preached advaita,says in his famous momudhgaram(otherwise

called as bhajagovindam) that "one has to finally chant the name of

govinda, irrespective of the knowledge gained, to attain moksha" and

he also says "govinda is the only alternative".

with regards

ram

In vedic astrology, "pvr108" <pvr@c...> wrote:

> Namaste friends,

>

> I will address the few misconceptions I have seen on the list today

> regarding ishta devata:

>

> (1) "Ishta devata worship immediately brings moksha."

>

> No, ishta devata worship is a catalyst that accelerates the process

> of moksha. It does not guarantee instant moksha. Even if one

worships

> the ishta devata everyday, it may still take many lives to get

> moksha. It all depends on the evolution of that particular soul.

>

> Worship of ishta devata helps one in learning the lessons fast and

in

> overcoming desires. It is only a catalyst. One's mind still has to

> learn the lessons and travel the whole path.

>

> (2) "One who does not worship ishta devata cannot get moksha."

>

> No, ishta devata worship is only a catalyst that accelerates the

> process of moksha. It helps one in learning the lessons of life

fast.

> Even without this catalyst, one can still learn the lessons of life

> fast.

>

> (3) "Monotheism and Hinduism are at loggerheads."

>

> Monotheism is not a new concept for Hinduism. Hindu Sages taught

that

> God is nirguna (nirguna parabrahman). Nirguna means formless. God

is

> all pervading as aakasa tattva (ether) and he has no form. The

great

> Jupiter among planets represents aakasa tattva and hence the

nirguna

> (formless) expression of God.

>

> Worship of Nirguna Parabrahman is considered the most supreme form

of

> worship in Hinduism, but it is considered to be apt only for highly

> advanced souls. If you recognize the formless nature of The Supreme

> Soul and yet ask very mundane desires when praying to Him, what

good

> is it?

>

> Though the Supreme Soul is formless, it CAN manifest in many forms.

> You can worship those specific forms too. Hinduism has an elaborate

> description of these forms. This does not mean that the ONENESS and

> the formlessness of God are questioned.

>

> (4) "Monotheistic religions cannot have ishta devata worship"

>

> This is wrong too. Hindus worship deities, sages and saints, though

> they recognize the oneness and the formlessness of God. So can

people

> of other religions do. It is a misconception to think that

> worshipping the individual forms in which God manifested Himself is

> somehow wrong. Isn't Christ a saguna (having a form) manifestation

of

> God? Isn't Mother Mary a manifestation of divinity? Aren't the

great

> saints of christianity who brought the divine teachings to masses a

> manifestation of divinity? What is wrong in praying to them?

>

> Similarly, Sikhs have some great gurus who are the manifestations

of

> God for the followers of Sikhism. There is nothing wrong in praying

> to them.

>

> I am not knowledgable about Islam, but Allah is perhaps the

> equivalent of the Nirguna Parabrahman of Hinduism. But there are so

> many great saints and fakirs in Islam, who must've been born with

> some divinity in them.

>

> Whenever God sends somebody to establish an order of spirituality,

He

> manifests Himself in various forms filled with the energies of

> various planets, to show the way to people of various inclinations.

> Irrespective of which religion you are talking about, there will be

> different deities, saints, angels etc (basically formful

expressions

> of the formless divinity) that correspond to the nine planets. The

> real God aakasa tattva (formless ether). The planets have bodies

and

> they represent His formful expressions.

>

> We have to map planets to these divine forms. For Hindus, this task

> has already been done. As for other religions, it is upto learned

> Vedic astrologers following these religions to carefully study the

> teachings of their religion and classify. If learned scholars of

> Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism attempt

> this task for their own religions, I will be delighted!

>

> In case the main point is lost, I will stress it again. The concept

> of finding an ideal deity or saint or angel whose divine energies

> will help one in getting rid of desires does not amount to

> polytheism. You can seek the blessings of a particular prophet or

> saint and yet believe in the oneness of Allah. I hope I am clear.

>

> (5) "Worship of other deities is a waste of time"

>

> Moksha is only one of the 4 purposes in life. One has to follow

> dharma, artha and kama. If any unfinished karma is left related to

> those purusharthas, one can NOT get moksha.

>

> Worship of various deities (or forms of God) gets blessings in

> various areas of life. If you sincerely pray to any deity, the

prayer

> will never do you any harm. But the worship of ishta devata will

take

> you a long way in finishing the unfinished karma, getting a true

> perspective of the lessons of life and in overcoming desires of all

> kinds.

>

> (6) "Moksha comes from leading a good and truthful life"

>

> Well, that is dharma (dutifullness and righteousness). Dharma too

is

> needed in life, but moksha is different. Moksha is lack of desires.

> Lack of desires comes only when one understands the true nature of

> self (soul) and the the oneness of divinity to which one's soul

> belongs. How else can all desires disappear?

>

> Ishta devata's worship, leading a truthful life all help in that

long

> process, but neither is sufficient. Moksha is not an easy thing to

> get.

>

> LAST REMARK:

>

> Finally, we don't need religious intolerance on this list. No

> religion teaches hatred, intolerance and unkindness as the virtues

of

> a religious person. Though there are many religions in this world

of

> Kali Yuga, they all have very similar strands of thought behind

them.

> A casual observer may see disharmony, but a careful critic will see

> really similar strands of harmonious thought behind all religions.

> After all, there is only one God and each religion was started by

> somebody HE sent.

>

> Let us be kind, compassionate, understanding and respectful to each

> other.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

September 14, 2002

Once some learned person argued with Bamakhsepa, a famous tantric saint in

Tarapeeth (west bengal) about nirguna and saguna form of the God. He argued

that saguna worship is wrong and only nirguna worshiping should be done. The

saint asked him to get some fire for smoking. The learned person went outside,

lit an wooden piece and braught back to the saint. The saint instantly rebuked

him `I have asked you to bring fire only-why you have braught the wooden piece

also?'. The learned man replied, `How else can I carry the fire to you?'. The

saint replied, `Then tell me how can I bring God to you without the medium of a

form?'

God is all pervading and an ocean of power only. Saguna worshipping leads to

that understanding. Else it is impossible for a common man to even understand

the concept of nirguna. It is like trying to see ourselves with a binocular..a

mirror is required in between to reflect the image.

jk dasgupta

-

ved_ram

vedic astrology

Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:07 AM

[vedic astrology] Re: Ishta Devata Misconceptions

aum namo bhagavate vasudevayadear narsimha,a small clarification you said "the

worship of nirguna parabrahman is supreme" can you quote in which scriputre it

is written.even jagadguru adisankaracharya ( the shaktyavesh avtar of lord

shiva) who preached advaita,says in his famous momudhgaram(otherwise called as

bhajagovindam) that "one has to finally chant the name of govinda, irrespective

of the knowledge gained, to attain moksha" and he also says "govinda is the only

alternative".with regardsram In vedic astrology, "pvr108" <pvr@c...>

wrote:> Namaste friends,> > I will address the few misconceptions I have seen

on the list today > regarding ishta devata:> > (1) "Ishta devata worship

immediately brings moksha."> > No, ishta devata worship is a catalyst that

accelerates the process > of moksha. It does not guarantee instant moksha. Even

if one worships > the ishta devata everyday, it may still take many lives to get

> moksha. It all depends on the evolution of that particular soul.> > Worship

of ishta devata helps one in learning the lessons fast and in > overcoming

desires. It is only a catalyst. One's mind still has to > learn the lessons and

travel the whole path.> > (2) "One who does not worship ishta devata cannot get

moksha."> > No, ishta devata worship is only a catalyst that accelerates the >

process of moksha. It helps one in learning the lessons of life fast. > Even

without this catalyst, one can still learn the lessons of life > fast.> > (3)

"Monotheism and Hinduism are at loggerheads."> > Monotheism is not a new

concept for Hinduism. Hindu Sages taught that > God is nirguna (nirguna

parabrahman). Nirguna means formless. God is > all pervading as aakasa tattva

(ether) and he has no form. The great > Jupiter among planets represents aakasa

tattva and hence the nirguna > (formless) expression of God.> > Worship of

Nirguna Parabrahman is considered the most supreme form of > worship in

Hinduism, but it is considered to be apt only for highly > advanced souls. If

you recognize the formless nature of The Supreme > Soul and yet ask very

mundane desires when praying to Him, what good > is it?> > Though the Supreme

Soul is formless, it CAN manifest in many forms. > You can worship those

specific forms too. Hinduism has an elaborate > description of these forms.

This does not mean that the ONENESS and > the formlessness of God are

questioned.> > (4) "Monotheistic religions cannot have ishta devata worship">

> This is wrong too. Hindus worship deities, sages and saints, though > they

recognize the oneness and the formlessness of God. So can people > of other

religions do. It is a misconception to think that > worshipping the individual

forms in which God manifested Himself is > somehow wrong. Isn't Christ a saguna

(having a form) manifestation of > God? Isn't Mother Mary a manifestation of

divinity? Aren't the great > saints of christianity who brought the divine

teachings to masses a > manifestation of divinity? What is wrong in praying to

them?> > Similarly, Sikhs have some great gurus who are the manifestations of

> God for the followers of Sikhism. There is nothing wrong in praying > to

them.> > I am not knowledgable about Islam, but Allah is perhaps the >

equivalent of the Nirguna Parabrahman of Hinduism. But there are so > many

great saints and fakirs in Islam, who must've been born with > some divinity in

them.> > Whenever God sends somebody to establish an order of spirituality, He

> manifests Himself in various forms filled with the energies of > various

planets, to show the way to people of various inclinations. > Irrespective of

which religion you are talking about, there will be > different deities,

saints, angels etc (basically formful expressions > of the formless divinity)

that correspond to the nine planets. The > real God aakasa tattva (formless

ether). The planets have bodies and > they represent His formful expressions.>

> We have to map planets to these divine forms. For Hindus, this task > has

already been done. As for other religions, it is upto learned > Vedic

astrologers following these religions to carefully study the > teachings of

their religion and classify. If learned scholars of > Islam, Judaism,

Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism attempt > this task for their own

religions, I will be delighted!> > In case the main point is lost, I will

stress it again. The concept > of finding an ideal deity or saint or angel

whose divine energies > will help one in getting rid of desires does not amount

to > polytheism. You can seek the blessings of a particular prophet or > saint

and yet believe in the oneness of Allah. I hope I am clear.> > (5) "Worship of

other deities is a waste of time"> > Moksha is only one of the 4 purposes in

life. One has to follow > dharma, artha and kama. If any unfinished karma is

left related to > those purusharthas, one can NOT get moksha.> > Worship of

various deities (or forms of God) gets blessings in > various areas of life. If

you sincerely pray to any deity, the prayer > will never do you any harm. But

the worship of ishta devata will take > you a long way in finishing the

unfinished karma, getting a true > perspective of the lessons of life and in

overcoming desires of all > kinds.> > (6) "Moksha comes from leading a good

and truthful life"> > Well, that is dharma (dutifullness and righteousness).

Dharma too is > needed in life, but moksha is different. Moksha is lack of

desires. > Lack of desires comes only when one understands the true nature of >

self (soul) and the the oneness of divinity to which one's soul > belongs. How

else can all desires disappear?> > Ishta devata's worship, leading a truthful

life all help in that long > process, but neither is sufficient. Moksha is not

an easy thing to > get.> > LAST REMARK:> > Finally, we don't need religious

intolerance on this list. No > religion teaches hatred, intolerance and

unkindness as the virtues of > a religious person. Though there are many

religions in this world of > Kali Yuga, they all have very similar strands of

thought behind them. > A casual observer may see disharmony, but a careful

critic will see > really similar strands of harmonious thought behind all

religions. > After all, there is only one God and each religion was started by

> somebody HE sent.> > Let us be kind, compassionate, understanding and

respectful to each > other.> > May Jupiter's light shine on us,>

NarasimhaArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

September 14, 2002

>

>ved_ram [ved_ram]

>Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:08 AM

>aum namo bhagavate vasudevaya

>dear narsimha,

>

>a small clarification

>

>you said "the worship of nirguna parabrahman is

>supreme" can you quote in which scriputre it is

>written.

Dear Ram,

While still the answer from Narasimha garu is awaited,

my comments are below.

When studying Advaita or Shankaracharya's works, the

first thing to understand the path(s) that are

approved by Shankaracharya. He identifies jnAna,

karma, bhakti as three different paths to moksha. He

says that jnAna is direct in leading to nirguNa

brahman, while the others aid in leading oneself to

jnAna (which happens through something called as

'krama mukti'). The rest, i.e., karma and bhakti, lead

to saguNa brahman. This saguNa brahman, also referred

as Ishvara, aids in getting jnAna and thus to nirguNa

brahmaikya.

He also says that jnAna is meant for uttamAdhikaris

(high aspirants -- He opines that it is only people in

sannyAsa ashrama that are capable of being on the path

of jnAnayoga. The rigidity of such a constraint was

later mellowed by others to include people of all

classes and sex.) and karma/bhakti are for

madhyamAdhikAri and adhamAdhikAri. This information

can be obtained in his commentary on Gita, esp 3.1.

This opinion comes from his paramaguru, Gaudapaada,

who in his kArikAs says that the Vedas are benign

enough to give different paths to people at different

levels of awareness.

In line with that, Shankaracharya himself praises each

of the paths in flowery terms, but the order or

priorities of upAsana is never lost sight of. For

example, see his commentary on 15.16 where he extols

that the gist of the scripture lying in the fact that

Lord Krishna is the Supreme. But see his commentary on

verses in terms of 'jnAnagni dagdha karmANi...'. You

will get a different picture. Or even the preface to

his commentary on Brahmasutras.

So, my point is that one should not take a small

section of his works to conclude that he was favoring

one path. A complete reading will give the order I'd

mentioned.

But we should also notice that this idea of nirguNa

and saguNa brahman itself has been criticized heavily

by many other greats and a dispassionate reading (not

possible if one already __likes__ his works and cannot

subject them to critical examination) would convince

that this idea is a big phoney.

Every vedantic school has claims to have sprung from

the fountainhead of scriptures only. All its ideas

come only from scriptures and nowhere else. And these

scriptures say two different things, atleast when

superficially read.

The first set say that Brahman has lot of qualities --

parA.asya shaktirvividhaiva shrUyate svAbhAvikI jnAna

bala kriyA cha (Shvetashvatara upanishad)- The shrutis

propound that the Brahman is possesed of many and

different types of wonderful powers, energy,

activities -- all of which are intrinsic to Brahman.

The second set say that Brahman has no quality -- eko

devaH sarvabhUteshhu gUDhaH sarvavyApI

sarvabhUtAntarAtmA.

karmAdhyaxaH sarvabhUtAdhivAsaH sAxI chetA kevalo

____nirguNashcha___ (The same upanishad).

Every school has its own solution to this. None of

them agree that both these are the two sides of the

same coin, for it cannot be that one can have

qualities and not have them simultaneously. Such a

notion would be possible only when one does not want

to think much.

Advaita school says that the second set are absolutely

true, the first set are absolutely false but

empirically true so on. This is their solution. The

first set refers to saguNa Brahman, who will be

finally proved to be a figment of imagination and is

thus only empirically true, while the second set is

absolutely true

Other schools come up with a simpler solution that the

word 'nirguNa' does mean absolutely qualitiy-less, but

devoid of prAkritic qualities, i.e. materialistic

qualities such as limitedness, materialistic body

subject to pain, disease, coarseness etc.

The Advaitic solution lends itself to criticism

because there are no pramANas, i.e., scriptures which

approve such a bifurcation. Secondly, the second set

of statements lend to better interpretation and the

advaitic interpretation is grammatically and

contextually wrong. For example, in the above

statement itself, there are many qualities that are

given by the side of nirguNa. The quality of

nirguNatva is counted among other attributes (like in

Vishnu sahasranama) and no special consideration is

given to it. Thirdly, an advaitin will affirm that

there is a difference between nirguNa brahman and a

buddhist's shUnya (Void) (since Shankara and some

others before him spend time criticising buddhists'

shUnya); but actually there is no difference. Any

object without qualities, nay, not even that of

"nirguNatva", is no object at all and is thus void.

Fourthly, Shankaracharya says in his

brahmasutrabhAShya that our upAsana is to get correct

understanding of brahman, whose qualities are covered

by avidyA. No, how can anything cover an object,

partially or entirely, without any attributes? Fiftly,

the shrutis says that Brahman is immutable and his

qualities are intrinsic to Him. How can this be if

Brahman is nirguNa? Sixth, calling the first set as

only empirically true and the second as absolutely

true has the flaw of assumption of conclusion. Who

told that the final truth is that of nirguNa. Don't

say that great advaitin teachers have experienced it.

Such an experience is contrary to the nirguNa concept

in the first place. Also, Shankara himself says that

only Upanishads can be the source of jnAna (and not

others' experiences).

There are many other objections and criticisms which

have been never been answered. People would fire

irrelevant suggestions such as "become silent to

understand that", instead of answering questions;

which is a tacit acceptance that shruti does not

support advaita or the bifurcation into saguNa/nirguNa

brahman concept.

Regards,

Nomadeva

>even jagadguru adisankaracharya ( the shaktyavesh

avtar of lord

>shiva) who preached advaita,says in his famous

momudhgaram(otherwise

>called as bhajagovindam) that "one has to finally

chant the name of

>govinda, irrespective of the knowledge gained, to

attain moksha" and

>he also says "govinda is the only alternative".

>

>with regards

>ram

>

News - Today's headlines

http://news.

September 16, 2002

First I must say I learned a lot from Narasimhajis reply. Thank you

very much. I hope you dont consider comparing and contrasting ideas

of different religions as "religious intolerance". It is certainly

not what I intend when I post. I do have one remaining curiosity

regarding the way certain religions are at loggerheads. The other day

I read an article in the Dec. 2001 National Geographic - "Abraham:

Father of Three Faiths" (Judaism, Christianity and Islam -

collectively covering most of the world's population excluding India

and China). In that, Abraham (whose life is considered to have been

for a "175" year period somewhere between 2000-700BC - there isnt

consensus between literary and archaeological sources) is widely

regarded as the father of monotheism. And clearly, monotheism is

portrayed as a more "advanced" form of religion than polytheism,

which is what was in vogue in Abraham's time. Abraham is said to have

destroyed deities and idols - I'm guessing this was done so that

people wouldn't use different forms of God to divide themselves - he

wanted to dispel the notion of personal and village deities in

specific and all deities and idols in general. This message has been

taken to heart very literally(another example like the 4 examples

cited by MD in this thread) by the average member of one of these

three faiths and has been communicated down the centuries. This idea

seems to go very clearly against what you say - that monotheistic

religions can have Ishta Devata worship. How can both systems of

thought be reconciled? Aren't Abraham's actions tantamount to saying

that worshipping any saguna form (is that the right term?) is plain

wrong? Do note that Christ is not considered a form of God. Nor is

Moses. Nor is Mohammed. They are all considered only messengers in

some form or the other. Please do note here again - I am not trying

to create a rift between people of different religions - I am simply

identifying the point of the existing rift and I hope my presenting

what I see isnt going to be interpreted as creating disharmony.

Basically I am looking for some additional words of wisdom much like

what you've already given.

SP

vedic astrology, "pvr108" <pvr@c...> wrote:

> Namaste friends,

>

> I will address the few misconceptions I have seen on the list today

> regarding ishta devata:

>

> (1) "Ishta devata worship immediately brings moksha."

>

> No, ishta devata worship is a catalyst that accelerates the process

> of moksha. It does not guarantee instant moksha. Even if one

worships

> the ishta devata everyday, it may still take many lives to get

> moksha. It all depends on the evolution of that particular soul.

>

> Worship of ishta devata helps one in learning the lessons fast and

in

> overcoming desires. It is only a catalyst. One's mind still has to

> learn the lessons and travel the whole path.

>

> (2) "One who does not worship ishta devata cannot get moksha."

>

> No, ishta devata worship is only a catalyst that accelerates the

> process of moksha. It helps one in learning the lessons of life

fast.

> Even without this catalyst, one can still learn the lessons of life

> fast.

>

> (3) "Monotheism and Hinduism are at loggerheads."

>

> Monotheism is not a new concept for Hinduism. Hindu Sages taught

that

> God is nirguna (nirguna parabrahman). Nirguna means formless. God

is

> all pervading as aakasa tattva (ether) and he has no form. The

great

> Jupiter among planets represents aakasa tattva and hence the

nirguna

> (formless) expression of God.

>

> Worship of Nirguna Parabrahman is considered the most supreme form

of

> worship in Hinduism, but it is considered to be apt only for highly

> advanced souls. If you recognize the formless nature of The Supreme

> Soul and yet ask very mundane desires when praying to Him, what

good

> is it?

>

> Though the Supreme Soul is formless, it CAN manifest in many forms.

> You can worship those specific forms too. Hinduism has an elaborate

> description of these forms. This does not mean that the ONENESS and

> the formlessness of God are questioned.

>

> (4) "Monotheistic religions cannot have ishta devata worship"

>

> This is wrong too. Hindus worship deities, sages and saints, though

> they recognize the oneness and the formlessness of God. So can

people

> of other religions do. It is a misconception to think that

> worshipping the individual forms in which God manifested Himself is

> somehow wrong. Isn't Christ a saguna (having a form) manifestation

of

> God? Isn't Mother Mary a manifestation of divinity? Aren't the

great

> saints of christianity who brought the divine teachings to masses a

> manifestation of divinity? What is wrong in praying to them?

>

> Similarly, Sikhs have some great gurus who are the manifestations

of

> God for the followers of Sikhism. There is nothing wrong in praying

> to them.

>

> I am not knowledgable about Islam, but Allah is perhaps the

> equivalent of the Nirguna Parabrahman of Hinduism. But there are so

> many great saints and fakirs in Islam, who must've been born with

> some divinity in them.

>

> Whenever God sends somebody to establish an order of spirituality,

He

> manifests Himself in various forms filled with the energies of

> various planets, to show the way to people of various inclinations.

> Irrespective of which religion you are talking about, there will be

> different deities, saints, angels etc (basically formful

expressions

> of the formless divinity) that correspond to the nine planets. The

> real God aakasa tattva (formless ether). The planets have bodies

and

> they represent His formful expressions.

>

> We have to map planets to these divine forms. For Hindus, this task

> has already been done. As for other religions, it is upto learned

> Vedic astrologers following these religions to carefully study the

> teachings of their religion and classify. If learned scholars of

> Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism attempt

> this task for their own religions, I will be delighted!

>

> In case the main point is lost, I will stress it again. The concept

> of finding an ideal deity or saint or angel whose divine energies

> will help one in getting rid of desires does not amount to

> polytheism. You can seek the blessings of a particular prophet or

> saint and yet believe in the oneness of Allah. I hope I am clear.

>

> (5) "Worship of other deities is a waste of time"

>

> Moksha is only one of the 4 purposes in life. One has to follow

> dharma, artha and kama. If any unfinished karma is left related to

> those purusharthas, one can NOT get moksha.

>

> Worship of various deities (or forms of God) gets blessings in

> various areas of life. If you sincerely pray to any deity, the

prayer

> will never do you any harm. But the worship of ishta devata will

take

> you a long way in finishing the unfinished karma, getting a true

> perspective of the lessons of life and in overcoming desires of all

> kinds.

>

> (6) "Moksha comes from leading a good and truthful life"

>

> Well, that is dharma (dutifullness and righteousness). Dharma too

is

> needed in life, but moksha is different. Moksha is lack of desires.

> Lack of desires comes only when one understands the true nature of

> self (soul) and the the oneness of divinity to which one's soul

> belongs. How else can all desires disappear?

>

> Ishta devata's worship, leading a truthful life all help in that

long

> process, but neither is sufficient. Moksha is not an easy thing to

> get.

>

> LAST REMARK:

>

> Finally, we don't need religious intolerance on this list. No

> religion teaches hatred, intolerance and unkindness as the virtues

of

> a religious person. Though there are many religions in this world

of

> Kali Yuga, they all have very similar strands of thought behind

them.

> A casual observer may see disharmony, but a careful critic will see

> really similar strands of harmonious thought behind all religions.

> After all, there is only one God and each religion was started by

> somebody HE sent.

>

> Let us be kind, compassionate, understanding and respectful to each

> other.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

September 17, 2002

>> > dear members,

there is nothing wrong to give a constructive critism

to

any religion including hinduism, as we all know all

religion ignore this. jews when during christ time

making temple a place of busines did not christ get

mad

at them same way you go to pilgrmage of hindu holi

places

there is less holi men and priest more thugs and

business is at rise and they suck the blood of poor

and believer,

swami dayanand was the great reformer of this root

evil in hinduism.

ramakrishna parmahansa mutth has started some

missionary

work in last 50year .

and swami vivekanand has appeal our logic to worshipp

ista deveta as we respect our pareents and bow to

there pic so the planet

in reality are worthy to worship so we gave the form

of

as look like us.

regarding islam dayanand has left lot of constructive

critism of islam if the wise has done something about

it and i bet you we would have not seen this tragedy

of 91102

no one could justified this act under the shelter of

dharm.

sufiism sect of islam will take you more close to

moksha then a mere teching of muhamad who i think just

a warrior and change his idealogy for his benefit

many times in his life .

what a chracter of man you think at present time who

marry a 8 year old child.

infact world is in habit of change god according to

place and time as the maya put imprtance on pleasure

rather than bliss.

if you believe history is witness i can assure you

once they find Godlike personality is therer they

crucified Hiom but could not take their bliss away.

foolish are those who follow new leader of faith

with old books there source,maya is there end not your

salvation.

one scholar even wrote christ was cu=]rucified as his

karma as he did not put women as equal to his status

but gautam BUDDHA WAS NOT CRUCIFIED AS HE GAVE WOMEN

THE EQUAL PLACE IN HEAVAN . in reality there is god

only first if i as witness exist so he gave power to

your soul find it and you will not need to do bad

karma to find sat chit anand. you are that you looking

for.

i consider astrology a place to gossip and i get

pleasure but it did not give me anand the bliss i

seek.

one mr rampriya was advising to not to open to much

that is infact little bit like annand as people are so

unsure of themself they want to consult every event of

yhere life for planet alignment.

hey plant dont do nothing be aware of your own thougt

and learn to forget and forgive and take life asit

comes sky will never fall .

with last line nothing dies in nature it just change

the shape and total sum of energy remain the same.

one day we may have human religion were we learn to

love each other. and no more guilt of this and that

as most of religion keep you close in.

thanks

rajinder

>

=== message truncated ===

News - Today's headlines

http://news.

October 21, 2002

JAYA JAGANNATHA!

Maybe the statement thet the Lord has no hands, eyes, feet etc. can be

misinterpreted, because although it is certainly true, that He has no limited

material senses, but He is endowed with unlimited, transcendental senses, and

we should no think that Lord Jagannatha's hands, feet, eyes etc. are imaginary

or a product of illusion. They are real, more real than our temporary material

senses are, and from His senses do we acquire the power to use ours. In the

Bhagavad-gita it is stated that even Paramatma, or the Supersoul has

unlimitedly potent senses:

sarvatah pani-padam tat sarvato ’kshi-shiro-mukhamsarvatah srutimal loke

sarvam avritya tisthati

Everywhere are His hands and legs, His eyes, heads and faces, and He has ears

everywhere. In this way the Supersoul exists, pervading everything. (Bg.

13.14.)

Srila Prabhupada also quotes from Svetasvatara Upanisad and explains as follows:

apani-pado javano grahitapasyaty acaksuh sa srnoty akarnahsa vetti vedyam na ca

tasyasti vettatam ahur agryam purusam mahantam

"Although the Supreme Lord is described as having no hands and legs, He

nonetheless accepts all sacrificial offerings. He has no eyes, yet He sees

everything. He has no ears, yet He hears everything. When it is stated that the

Supreme Lord has no hands and legs, one should not think that He is impersonal.

Rather, He has no mundane hands or legs like ours. “He has no eyes, yet He

sees.” This means that He does not have mundane, limited eyes like ours.

Rather, He has such eyes that He can see past, present and future, everywhere,

in every corner of the universe and in every corner of the heart of every

living entity. Thus the impersonal descriptions in the Vedas intend to deny

mundane characteristics in the Supreme Lord. They do not intend to establish

the Supreme Lord as impersonal."

Yours,

Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer gauranga (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net Jyotish Remedies:

WWW.BRIHASPATI.NET Phone:+36-309-140-839

-

Sanjay Rath

vedic astrology

Saturday, September 14, 2002 7:58 PM

RE: [vedic astrology] Re: Ishta Devata Misconceptions

Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya

Dear JK,

To sum up, try defining Jagannath Krishna - I mean the specific Vesha or form of

the formless lord, the specific 'Madhura' guna of the Gunaless lord and you will

get what Narasimha was attempting to describe.

Jagannatha has no hands, yet He is the real doer, responsible for all Karma,

Jagannath has no eyes, yet He alone can see and we are but blind men being led,

Jagannath has no feet, yet He is onmipresent, sarva vyapakesha Vishnu,

Jagannath has no ears, yet He is omniscient, the param brahma,

Jagannath has no body, yet His is the only unborn and undying body, the omnipotent Sadashiva,

Each of Sankara, Buddha, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Guru Nanak etc are right; it all

depends on where we stand at a point of time. Like the blind men trying to

describe the elephant, we are sure of what we say, simultaneously knowing that

we can never be sure.

So, JK your search for the Guru is never going to end till you realise that so

long as it is YOU who is searching, you will not find him; when HE searches,

you will go running to Him...I pray that that day comes sooner than later for

one as nice as you.

Om Krishna Guru

With best wishes

Sanjay Rath

http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

j.k. dasgupta [dga (AT) bom5 (DOT) vsnl.net.in]Sent:

Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:38 PMvedic astrologySubject:

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Ishta Devata Misconceptions