Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Dear Visti, You are a great astrloger and avery knowledgeable person.I have few disagreements with you on the following mail. > Dear MD, > The soul 'parks' its sense of individuality at the > doorstep, and realises that its non-different from > the rest of bhagawan/allah/god. As sudharshan has pointed out, from the vaishnava sampradayas, there is no oneness or non difference between soul and paramatma.. Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its individuality which is very distinct from the paramatma in quantity and quality.The soul is eternally dependent on the paramatma for its sustenance. If in liberation, we are going to loose our individual identity, then there is no point in attaining moksha.I would rather prefer to take birth again and again as i will lead my own life... Regards, Kautilya > > I am deeply agrieved to see people use such > discriminating words such as 'islamic savage'. I > would not dare teach astrology to someone who uses > such words, or has such values/beliefs, as this far > from qualifies one from being fit to USE this > knowledge. What ill could a racist do with the > knowledge of astrology? its like giving a fisherman > a torpedo. > > CORRECT YOURSELF! - Discrimination is also a sin, > and you won't be allowed into any higher lokas where > there are any 'islamic savages'.. instead you will > get a lower loka, with people of like-minds. Free > your mind. > > Best wishes, Visti. > > > - > monmuk111 > vedic astrology > Friday, September 06, 2002 8:14 PM > [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and Islam > > > Dear Sudharsan: > > Even better said, I respect the feelings of others > on this board and > will stop posting on this subject unless provoked > again by some > Islamic savage. > > On another point, you mention that "we are > permanent entities as > souls," I agree. However, if soul is permanent, > what is moksha? Does > moksha mean that the soul stops the cycle of birth > and re-birth? And > if this is what moksha is, then where does the > soul utlimately park > itself after attainig moksha? > > Sudarsan: I've attempted to live a righteous life > so that I (my soul) > attains moksha. Now, does my past life sins > withold me from attaining > moksha even though I've lived a righteious life in > the current life? > > Others on the board knowledgeable on this subject > are welcome to > enlighten me as well. Thank you. > > MD > > vedic astrology, Sudharsan Srinivasan > <sudhar108> > wrote: > > > > Hare Rama Krishna > > Jaya Jagannatha > > Dear List, > > I think its time we step on the brakes with this > thread. This type > of exchange certainly does not add to our > knowledge nor does it > encourage Sattwa which is very important in our > learning.Maybe we > should gain some more knowledge about the > transmigration of the soul > and the fact that we are spirit souls and NOT this > body.Bodily > identification is the root cause of all bondage > and miseries in this > world.Some of us have Indian bodies and others > have chinese bodies , > American bodies and Pakistani bodies. According to > the Lord in the > Srimad Baghavad Gita, some of us who identify > ourselves as indians in > this birth could have been pakistanis or Arabs in > our previous > births.Can anyone here refute the same? Or can > anyone here guarantee > their birth again in India? > > We are spirit souls , part and parcel of the > Supreme Lord and since > He is permanent and we are permanent entities as > souls, a temporary > body should not be our identification. It would > help greatly if we > view the world through Guru, Sadhu and Sashthra. > > Hare Krishna > > Sudharsan > > monmuk111 wrote:Hello Rampriya: > > > > Imran seems like a nice guy, at least he is > attempting transcend > the > > bounds of Islam and look at what other cultures > and religions have > to > > offer. There may be a fatwa on Imran's head in > Pakistan just for > > posting on this board. Maybe he'll have to run > away to India or US > or > > England to save his life. Hey Imran, if your > savage blood thirsty > > brothers kick you out of Pakistan, you're > welcome to make India > your > > home.--India has given citizenship to two > hundred million of your > > brothers, why not one more!! > > > > What amazes me is that the the muslims in Inida > forget that they're > > just a guest in India, they were given their own > separat homeland > > then why not move to their homeland, Pakistan in > the West and > > Bangladesh in the East? The intent and essence > of partition was > > separate homeland for Hindus and Muslims. The > Muslims got their > > homeland, then why are they still in India. > Hindus are too nice, > the > > Hindus should have removed EACH and EVERY muslim > after the > partition > > from Hindustan and shipped them to WestPakistan > and East Pakistan. > > > > Every time I visit India or the middle east (I'm > scared to visit > any > > country in the middle-east except Bahrain), I > have a bitter > > experience of the muslim savages. However, the > Hindus are loving, > > caring, sharing and above all open to a > foreigner. The savages who > > blew up the WTC and killed thousands of > innocents made my > sentiments > > about these savages even more stronger. > > > > Rampriya, I wish you had posted your analysis > in reponse to some > > blood thirsty savage muslim like the ones who > blew up the WTC and > the > > ones to kill innocent Israeli civilians and the > ones who rape, > > pillage and kill innocent Kashmiri Pandits > who've been living in > > Kashmir even before the religion of the savages > was born in 800 AD. > > Imran seems like a good man. > > > > MD > > > > vedic astrology, Ramapriya D > <ramapriya_d> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Imran, > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jagmeet, Qamar and List, > > > > > > Hello/Pranam, > > > > > > It is usually said that astrology is strickly > prohibited in Islam > > and there are hundreds of Fatawa and opposing > arguments about > > astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > Old hat. But who doesn't know the mindset of > the blokes who issue > > fatwas? > > > > > > > > > > > > Very few persons tried to highlite the true > picture. === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah Dear Kautilya, There more to this, check bellow.. i always refer to the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti There are 4 types of Mukti: Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a particular god, he will ultimately obtain a place in the heavenly abode of that particular god. This is called as ‘Saalokya Mukti’. The method of worship followed here is called as ‘Charya’. It is a method in which the seeker considers himself a slave and the god as the Supreme Lord. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising even more intense devotion will not only obtain a place in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the qualities of the god he worships. The method of worship followed here is called as ‘Kriya’. Kriya here means performing Pooja, Homa and other rituals. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even more intense, the seeker will not only acquire the qualities of the god he worships, but will also gain a godly form and a place very near to God. This method is called ‘Yoga’. Here Yoga means the eight steps of Ashtanga Yoga. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships transcends the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, the seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma are one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti. The instrument to obtain this is ‘Jnana’. Jnana means realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya Anitya Vastu Viveka. The source is: http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth.. Who are you really? Best wishes, Visti. - Vishnu Gupta vedic astrology Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:31 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and Islam - To Visti Dear Visti,You are a great astrloger and avery knowledgeableperson.I have few disagreements with you on thefollowing mail.> Dear MD,> The soul 'parks' its sense of individuality at the> doorstep, and realises that its non-different from> the rest of bhagawan/allah/god.As sudharshan has pointed out, from the vaishnavasampradayas, there is no oneness or non differencebetween soul and paramatma..Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its individualitywhich is very distinct from the paramatma in quantityand quality.The soul is eternally dependent on theparamatma for its sustenance.If in liberation, we are going to loose our individualidentity, then there is no point in attaining moksha.Iwould rather prefer to take birth again and again as iwill lead my own life...Regards,Kautilya> > I am deeply agrieved to see people use such> discriminating words such as 'islamic savage'. I> would not dare teach astrology to someone who uses> such words, or has such values/beliefs, as this far> from qualifies one from being fit to USE this> knowledge. What ill could a racist do with the> knowledge of astrology? its like giving a fisherman> a torpedo.> > CORRECT YOURSELF! - Discrimination is also a sin,> and you won't be allowed into any higher lokas where> there are any 'islamic savages'.. instead you will> get a lower loka, with people of like-minds. Free> your mind.> > Best wishes, Visti.> > > - > monmuk111 > To: vedic astrology > Friday, September 06, 2002 8:14 PM> [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and Islam> > > Dear Sudharsan:> > Even better said, I respect the feelings of others> on this board and > will stop posting on this subject unless provoked> again by some > Islamic savage. > > On another point, you mention that "we are> permanent entities as > souls," I agree. However, if soul is permanent,> what is moksha? Does > moksha mean that the soul stops the cycle of birth> and re-birth? And > if this is what moksha is, then where does the> soul utlimately park > itself after attainig moksha?> > Sudarsan: I've attempted to live a righteous life> so that I (my soul) > attains moksha. Now, does my past life sins> withold me from attaining > moksha even though I've lived a righteious life in> the current life?> > Others on the board knowledgeable on this subject> are welcome to > enlighten me as well. Thank you.> > MD > > --- In vedic astrology, Sudharsan Srinivasan> <sudhar108> > wrote:> > > > Hare Rama Krishna> > Jaya Jagannatha> > Dear List,> > I think its time we step on the brakes with this> thread. This type > of exchange certainly does not add to our> knowledge nor does it > encourage Sattwa which is very important in our> learning.Maybe we > should gain some more knowledge about the> transmigration of the soul > and the fact that we are spirit souls and NOT this> body.Bodily > identification is the root cause of all bondage> and miseries in this > world.Some of us have Indian bodies and others> have chinese bodies , > American bodies and Pakistani bodies. According to> the Lord in the > Srimad Baghavad Gita, some of us who identify> ourselves as indians in > this birth could have been pakistanis or Arabs in> our previous > births.Can anyone here refute the same? Or can> anyone here guarantee > their birth again in India?> > We are spirit souls , part and parcel of the> Supreme Lord and since > He is permanent and we are permanent entities as> souls, a temporary > body should not be our identification. It would> help greatly if we > view the world through Guru, Sadhu and Sashthra.> > Hare Krishna> > Sudharsan> > monmuk111 wrote:Hello Rampriya:> > > > Imran seems like a nice guy, at least he is> attempting transcend > the > > bounds of Islam and look at what other cultures> and religions have > to > > offer. There may be a fatwa on Imran's head in> Pakistan just for > > posting on this board. Maybe he'll have to run> away to India or US > or > > England to save his life. Hey Imran, if your> savage blood thirsty > > brothers kick you out of Pakistan, you're> welcome to make India > your > > home.--India has given citizenship to two> hundred million of your > > brothers, why not one more!!> > > > What amazes me is that the the muslims in Inida> forget that they're > > just a guest in India, they were given their own> separat homeland > > then why not move to their homeland, Pakistan in> the West and > > Bangladesh in the East? The intent and essence> of partition was > > separate homeland for Hindus and Muslims. The> Muslims got their > > homeland, then why are they still in India.> Hindus are too nice, > the > > Hindus should have removed EACH and EVERY muslim> after the > partition > > from Hindustan and shipped them to WestPakistan> and East Pakistan.> > > > Every time I visit India or the middle east (I'm> scared to visit > any > > country in the middle-east except Bahrain), I> have a bitter > > experience of the muslim savages. However, the> Hindus are loving, > > caring, sharing and above all open to a> foreigner. The savages who > > blew up the WTC and killed thousands of> innocents made my > sentiments > > about these savages even more stronger.> > > > Rampriya, I wish you had posted your analysis> in reponse to some > > blood thirsty savage muslim like the ones who> blew up the WTC and > the > > ones to kill innocent Israeli civilians and the> ones who rape, > > pillage and kill innocent Kashmiri Pandits> who've been living in > > Kashmir even before the religion of the savages> was born in 800 AD. > > Imran seems like a good man. > > > > MD> > > > vedic astrology, Ramapriya D> <ramapriya_d> wrote:> > > > > > > > Hi Imran,> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jagmeet, Qamar and List,> > > > > > Hello/Pranam, > > > > > > It is usually said that astrology is strickly> prohibited in Islam > > and there are hundreds of Fatawa and opposing> arguments about > > astrology.> > > > > > > > > > > > Old hat. But who doesn't know the mindset of> the blokes who issue > > fatwas?> > > > > > > > > > > > Very few persons tried to highlite the true> picture. === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quoteshttp://finance.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Dear Visit, This is exactly what i have also refuted.That in moksha you lose your identity to merge into a nirguna brahman who does not have a consiciousness of his own, appears to me of no use for the man kind. What you have referred to is the advaitic interpretation of the vedanta where as all the vaishnava sampradayas do not conform to this interpretation. My simple question is : If at all you are going to lose your identity at the 4 th level of moksha, why do you want to achieve that ?What you are not talking is that you ,who has acquired so much knowledge and worshipped the supreme being with such a devotion, only to find that you no longer exist once you attain moksha.This sounds ridiculous to me. Also, it is another ingenuity of Advaita to describe the supreme being as a nirguna brahman - a god without attributes including conciousness!A god without conciousness,knowledge,power,compassion,name,form is not the one that i or for that matter anybody else wants.There is a huge difference between a formless/charecteristics less god and a god with infinite form who is omni present. Regards, Kautilya --- Visti Larsen <vishnu wrote: > Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah > > -- > > Dear Kautilya, > There more to this, check bellow.. i always refer to > the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti > > There are 4 types of Mukti: > 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a > particular god, he will ultimately obtain a place in > the heavenly abode of that particular god. This is > called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of worship > followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a method > in which the seeker considers himself a slave and > the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising even > more intense devotion will not only obtain a place > in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the > qualities of the god he worships. The method of > worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'. Kriya > here means performing Pooja, Homa and other rituals. > > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even more > intense, the seeker will not only acquire the > qualities of the god he worships, but will also gain > a godly form and a place very near to God. This > method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the eight > steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships transcends > the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, the > seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma are > one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti. The > instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana means > realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya > Anitya Vastu Viveka. > The source is: > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm > Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth.. Who > are you really? > > Best wishes, Visti. > - > Vishnu Gupta > vedic astrology > Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:31 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and > Islam - To Visti > > > Dear Visti, > You are a great astrloger and avery knowledgeable > person.I have few disagreements with you on the > following mail. > > > Dear MD, > > The soul 'parks' its sense of individuality at > the > > doorstep, and realises that its non-different > from > > the rest of bhagawan/allah/god. > > As sudharshan has pointed out, from the vaishnava > sampradayas, there is no oneness or non difference > between soul and paramatma.. > > Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its > individuality > which is very distinct from the paramatma in > quantity > and quality.The soul is eternally dependent on the > paramatma for its sustenance. > > If in liberation, we are going to loose our > individual > identity, then there is no point in attaining > moksha.I > would rather prefer to take birth again and again > as i > will lead my own life... > > Regards, > Kautilya > > > > I am deeply agrieved to see people use such > > discriminating words such as 'islamic savage'. I > > would not dare teach astrology to someone who > uses > > such words, or has such values/beliefs, as this > far > > from qualifies one from being fit to USE this > > knowledge. What ill could a racist do with the > > knowledge of astrology? its like giving a > fisherman > > a torpedo. > > > > CORRECT YOURSELF! - Discrimination is also a > sin, > > and you won't be allowed into any higher lokas > where > > there are any 'islamic savages'.. instead you > will > > get a lower loka, with people of like-minds. > Free > > your mind. > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > > > > > > - > > monmuk111 > > vedic astrology > > Friday, September 06, 2002 8:14 PM > > [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and > Islam > > > > > > Dear Sudharsan: > > > > Even better said, I respect the feelings of > others > > on this board and > > will stop posting on this subject unless > provoked > > again by some > > Islamic savage. > > > > On another point, you mention that "we are > > permanent entities as > > souls," I agree. However, if soul is > permanent, > > what is moksha? Does > > moksha mean that the soul stops the cycle of > birth > > and re-birth? And > > if this is what moksha is, then where does the > > soul utlimately park > > itself after attainig moksha? > > > > Sudarsan: I've attempted to live a righteous > life > > so that I (my soul) > > attains moksha. Now, does my past life sins > > withold me from attaining > > moksha even though I've lived a righteious > life in > > the current life? > > > > Others on the board knowledgeable on this > subject > > are welcome to > > enlighten me as well. Thank you. > > > > MD > > > > vedic astrology, Sudharsan > Srinivasan > > <sudhar108> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hare Rama Krishna > > > Jaya Jagannatha > > > Dear List, > > > I think its time we step on the brakes with > this > > thread. This type > > of exchange certainly does not add to our > > knowledge nor does it > > encourage Sattwa which is very important in > our > > learning.Maybe we > > should gain some more knowledge about the > > transmigration of the soul > > and the fact that we are spirit souls and NOT > this > > body.Bodily > > identification is the root cause of all > bondage > > and miseries in this > > world.Some of us have Indian bodies and others > > have chinese bodies , > > American bodies and Pakistani bodies. > According to > > the Lord in the > > Srimad Baghavad Gita, some of us who identify > > ourselves as indians in > > this birth could have been pakistanis or Arabs > in > > our previous > > births.Can anyone here refute the same? Or can > > anyone here guarantee > > their birth again in India? > > > We are spirit souls , part and parcel of the > > Supreme Lord and since > > He is permanent and we are permanent entities > as > === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah Dear Kautilya, Characterless form is far from the truth.. rather the right term is full of character.. actually all the characters! I will love to teach you more, but you must give me something first. Best wishes, Visti. - Vishnu Gupta vedic astrology Saturday, September 07, 2002 2:25 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and Islam - To Visti Dear Visit,This is exactly what i have also refuted.That inmoksha you lose your identity to merge into a nirgunabrahman who does not have a consiciousness of his own,appears to me of no use for the man kind.What you have referred to is the advaiticinterpretation of the vedanta where as all thevaishnava sampradayas do not conform to thisinterpretation.My simple question is : If at all you are going tolose your identity at the 4 th level of moksha, why doyou want to achieve that ?What you are not talking isthat you ,who has acquired so much knowledge andworshipped the supreme being with such a devotion,only to find that you no longer exist once you attainmoksha.This sounds ridiculous to me.Also, it is another ingenuity of Advaita to describethe supreme being as a nirguna brahman - a god withoutattributes including conciousness!A god withoutconciousness,knowledge,power,compassion,name,form isnot the one that i or for that matter anybody elsewants.There is a huge difference between aformless/charecteristics less god and a god withinfinite form who is omni present.Regards,Kautilya--- Visti Larsen <vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk> wrote:> Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah> >--> > Dear Kautilya,> There more to this, check bellow.. i always refer to> the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti> > There are 4 types of Mukti:> 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a> particular god, he will ultimately obtain a place in> the heavenly abode of that particular god. This is> called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of worship> followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a method> in which the seeker considers himself a slave and> the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising even> more intense devotion will not only obtain a place> in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the> qualities of the god he worships. The method of> worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'. Kriya> here means performing Pooja, Homa and other rituals.> > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even more> intense, the seeker will not only acquire the> qualities of the god he worships, but will also gain> a godly form and a place very near to God. This> method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the eight> steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships transcends> the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, the> seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma are> one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti. The> instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana means> realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya> Anitya Vastu Viveka.> The source is:>http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm> Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth.. Who> are you really?> > Best wishes, Visti.> - > Vishnu Gupta > To: vedic astrology > Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:31 PM> Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and> Islam - To Visti> > > Dear Visti,> You are a great astrloger and avery knowledgeable> person.I have few disagreements with you on the> following mail.> > > Dear MD,> > The soul 'parks' its sense of individuality at> the> > doorstep, and realises that its non-different> from> > the rest of bhagawan/allah/god.> > As sudharshan has pointed out, from the vaishnava> sampradayas, there is no oneness or non difference> between soul and paramatma..> > Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its> individuality> which is very distinct from the paramatma in> quantity> and quality.The soul is eternally dependent on the> paramatma for its sustenance.> > If in liberation, we are going to loose our> individual> identity, then there is no point in attaining> moksha.I> would rather prefer to take birth again and again> as i> will lead my own life...> > Regards,> Kautilya> > > > I am deeply agrieved to see people use such> > discriminating words such as 'islamic savage'. I> > would not dare teach astrology to someone who> uses> > such words, or has such values/beliefs, as this> far> > from qualifies one from being fit to USE this> > knowledge. What ill could a racist do with the> > knowledge of astrology? its like giving a> fisherman> > a torpedo.> > > > CORRECT YOURSELF! - Discrimination is also a> sin,> > and you won't be allowed into any higher lokas> where> > there are any 'islamic savages'.. instead you> will> > get a lower loka, with people of like-minds.> Free> > your mind.> > > > Best wishes, Visti.> > > > > > - > > monmuk111 > > vedic astrology > > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 8:14 PM> > [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and> Islam> > > > > > Dear Sudharsan:> > > > Even better said, I respect the feelings of> others> > on this board and > > will stop posting on this subject unless> provoked> > again by some > > Islamic savage. > > > > On another point, you mention that "we are> > permanent entities as > > souls," I agree. However, if soul is> permanent,> > what is moksha? Does > > moksha mean that the soul stops the cycle of> birth> > and re-birth? And > > if this is what moksha is, then where does the> > soul utlimately park > > itself after attainig moksha?> > > > Sudarsan: I've attempted to live a righteous> life> > so that I (my soul) > > attains moksha. Now, does my past life sins> > withold me from attaining > > moksha even though I've lived a righteious> life in> > the current life?> > > > Others on the board knowledgeable on this> subject> > are welcome to > > enlighten me as well. Thank you.> > > > MD > > > > vedic astrology, Sudharsan> Srinivasan> > <sudhar108> > > wrote:> > > > > > Hare Rama Krishna> > > Jaya Jagannatha> > > Dear List,> > > I think its time we step on the brakes with> this> > thread. This type > > of exchange certainly does not add to our> > knowledge nor does it > > encourage Sattwa which is very important in> our> > learning.Maybe we > > should gain some more knowledge about the> > transmigration of the soul > > and the fact that we are spirit souls and NOT> this> > body.Bodily > > identification is the root cause of all> bondage> > and miseries in this > > world.Some of us have Indian bodies and others> > have chinese bodies , > > American bodies and Pakistani bodies.> According to> > the Lord in the > > Srimad Baghavad Gita, some of us who identify> > ourselves as indians in > > this birth could have been pakistanis or Arabs> in> > our previous > > births.Can anyone here refute the same? Or can> > anyone here guarantee > > their birth again in India?> > > We are spirit souls , part and parcel of the> > Supreme Lord and since > > He is permanent and we are permanent entities> as> === message truncated ===Do You ? Finance - Get real-time stock quoteshttp://finance.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Dear Visti, > Dear Kautilya, > Characterless form is far from the truth.. rather > the right term is full of character.. actually all > the characters! Thanks for this clarification.This solved one of my contention from your earlier post.And i think this stand of your must be going agains the advaitic tradition when advaita is interpreted as it is... But this still did not answer my other question about the need and validitity of claiming that jeevatma and paramatma are same or they merge with each other. > I will love to teach you more, but you must give me > something first. > Best wishes, Visti. I would love to learn more about astrology,... REgards, Rajendra R > > - > Vishnu Gupta > vedic astrology > Saturday, September 07, 2002 2:25 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and > Islam - To Visti > > > Dear Visit, > This is exactly what i have also refuted.That in > moksha you lose your identity to merge into a > nirguna > brahman who does not have a consiciousness of his > own, > appears to me of no use for the man kind. > > What you have referred to is the advaitic > interpretation of the vedanta where as all the > vaishnava sampradayas do not conform to this > interpretation. > > My simple question is : If at all you are going to > lose your identity at the 4 th level of moksha, > why do > you want to achieve that ?What you are not talking > is > that you ,who has acquired so much knowledge and > worshipped the supreme being with such a devotion, > only to find that you no longer exist once you > attain > moksha.This sounds ridiculous to me. > > Also, it is another ingenuity of Advaita to > describe > the supreme being as a nirguna brahman - a god > without > attributes including conciousness!A god without > conciousness,knowledge,power,compassion,name,form > is > not the one that i or for that matter anybody else > wants.There is a huge difference between a > formless/charecteristics less god and a god with > infinite form who is omni present. > > Regards, > Kautilya > > --- Visti Larsen <vishnu wrote: > > Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah > > > > > > -- > > > > Dear Kautilya, > > There more to this, check bellow.. i always > refer to > > the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti > > > > There are 4 types of Mukti: > > 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a > > particular god, he will ultimately obtain a > place in > > the heavenly abode of that particular god. This > is > > called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of > worship > > followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a > method > > in which the seeker considers himself a slave > and > > the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising > even > > more intense devotion will not only obtain a > place > > in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the > > qualities of the god he worships. The method of > > worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'. > Kriya > > here means performing Pooja, Homa and other > rituals. > > > > > > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even > more > > intense, the seeker will not only acquire the > > qualities of the god he worships, but will also > gain > > a godly form and a place very near to God. This > > method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the > eight > > steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships > transcends > > the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, > the > > seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma > are > > one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti. > The > > instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana > means > > realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya > > Anitya Vastu Viveka. > > The source is: > > > > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm > > Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth.. > Who > > are you really? > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > > - > > Vishnu Gupta > > vedic astrology > > Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:31 PM > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology > and > > Islam - To Visti > > > > > > Dear Visti, > > You are a great astrloger and avery > knowledgeable > > person.I have few disagreements with you on > the > > following mail. > > > > > Dear MD, > > > The soul 'parks' its sense of individuality > at > > the > > > doorstep, and realises that its > non-different > > from > > > the rest of bhagawan/allah/god. > > > > As sudharshan has pointed out, from the > vaishnava > > sampradayas, there is no oneness or non > difference > > between soul and paramatma.. > > > > Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its > > individuality > > which is very distinct from the paramatma in > > quantity > > and quality.The soul is eternally dependent on > the > > paramatma for its sustenance. > > > > If in liberation, we are going to loose our > > individual > > identity, then there is no point in attaining > > moksha.I > > would rather prefer to take birth again and > again > > as i > > will lead my own life... > > > > Regards, > > Kautilya > > > > > > I am deeply agrieved to see people use such > > > discriminating words such as 'islamic > savage'. I > > > would not dare teach astrology to someone > who > > uses > > > such words, or has such values/beliefs, as > this > > far > > > from qualifies one from being fit to USE > this > > > knowledge. What ill could a racist do with > the > > > knowledge of astrology? its like giving a > > fisherman > > > a torpedo. > > > > > > CORRECT YOURSELF! - Discrimination is also a > === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah Dear Rajendra, Kautilya, and whoever else is behind that mail id. The place you misunderstood the scriptures is in the fact that allthough God is infact the embodiment of everything, God isn't 'bound' by anything. All religions agree on this exact description. Btw, are you prepared to give me something?.. Anything i ask? believe me i will be reasonable. - Visti - Vishnu Gupta vedic astrology Saturday, September 07, 2002 3:17 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and Islam - To Visti Dear Visti,> Dear Kautilya,> Characterless form is far from the truth.. rather> the right term is full of character.. actually all> the characters!Thanks for this clarification.This solved one of mycontention from your earlier post.And i think thisstand of your must be going agains the advaitictradition when advaita is interpreted as it is...But this still did not answer my other question aboutthe need and validitity of claiming that jeevatma andparamatma are same or they merge with each other.> I will love to teach you more, but you must give me> something first.> Best wishes, Visti.I would love to learn more about astrology,...REgards,Rajendra R> > - > Vishnu Gupta > vedic astrology > Saturday, September 07, 2002 2:25 PM> Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and> Islam - To Visti> > > Dear Visit,> This is exactly what i have also refuted.That in> moksha you lose your identity to merge into a> nirguna> brahman who does not have a consiciousness of his> own,> appears to me of no use for the man kind.> > What you have referred to is the advaitic> interpretation of the vedanta where as all the> vaishnava sampradayas do not conform to this> interpretation.> > My simple question is : If at all you are going to> lose your identity at the 4 th level of moksha,> why do> you want to achieve that ?What you are not talking> is> that you ,who has acquired so much knowledge and> worshipped the supreme being with such a devotion,> only to find that you no longer exist once you> attain> moksha.This sounds ridiculous to me.> > Also, it is another ingenuity of Advaita to> describe> the supreme being as a nirguna brahman - a god> without> attributes including conciousness!A god without> conciousness,knowledge,power,compassion,name,form> is> not the one that i or for that matter anybody else> wants.There is a huge difference between a> formless/charecteristics less god and a god with> infinite form who is omni present.> > Regards,> Kautilya> > --- Visti Larsen <vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk> wrote:> > Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah> > > >> >--> > > > Dear Kautilya,> > There more to this, check bellow.. i always> refer to> > the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti> > > > There are 4 types of Mukti:> > 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a> > particular god, he will ultimately obtain a> place in> > the heavenly abode of that particular god. This> is> > called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of> worship> > followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a> method> > in which the seeker considers himself a slave> and> > the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising> even> > more intense devotion will not only obtain a> place> > in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the> > qualities of the god he worships. The method of> > worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'.> Kriya> > here means performing Pooja, Homa and other> rituals.> > > > > > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even> more> > intense, the seeker will not only acquire the> > qualities of the god he worships, but will also> gain> > a godly form and a place very near to God. This> > method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the> eight> > steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships> transcends> > the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form,> the> > seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma> are> > one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti.> The> > instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana> means> > realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya> > Anitya Vastu Viveka.> > The source is:> >> >http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm> > Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth..> Who> > are you really?> > > > Best wishes, Visti.> > - > > Vishnu Gupta > > vedic astrology > > Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:31 PM> > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology> and> > Islam - To Visti> > > > > > Dear Visti,> > You are a great astrloger and avery> knowledgeable> > person.I have few disagreements with you on> the> > following mail.> > > > > Dear MD,> > > The soul 'parks' its sense of individuality> at> > the> > > doorstep, and realises that its> non-different> > from> > > the rest of bhagawan/allah/god.> > > > As sudharshan has pointed out, from the> vaishnava> > sampradayas, there is no oneness or non> difference> > between soul and paramatma..> > > > Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its> > individuality> > which is very distinct from the paramatma in> > quantity> > and quality.The soul is eternally dependent on> the> > paramatma for its sustenance.> > > > If in liberation, we are going to loose our> > individual> > identity, then there is no point in attaining> > moksha.I> > would rather prefer to take birth again and> again> > as i> > will lead my own life...> > > > Regards,> > Kautilya> > > > > > I am deeply agrieved to see people use such> > > discriminating words such as 'islamic> savage'. I> > > would not dare teach astrology to someone> who> > uses> > > such words, or has such values/beliefs, as> this> > far> > > from qualifies one from being fit to USE> this> > > knowledge. What ill could a racist do with> the> > > knowledge of astrology? its like giving a> > fisherman> > > a torpedo.> > > > > > CORRECT YOURSELF! - Discrimination is also a> === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quoteshttp://finance.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Dear Vishnugupta, Could you clarify the following? Vishnu Gupta wrote: Dear Visit, This is exactly what i have also refuted.That in moksha you lose your identity to merge into a nirguna brahman who does not have a consiciousness of his own, appears to me of no use for the man kind. What you have referred to is the advaitic interpretation of the vedanta where as all the vaishnava sampradayas do not conform to this interpretation. Sarbani: I thought the vaishnava sampradayas also speak about merging...though in Krishna. It is the same surrendering of one's identity and losing oneself. Krishna is just another way...Both the advaita and the vaishnava schools do not consider the question of what is of use and non-use to mankind. That itself speaks of the existence of an ego. If the world is krishnamay, then all dissolves in Krishna...please correct me if I am wrong... My simple question is : If at all you are going to lose your identity at the 4 th level of moksha, why do you want to achieve that ?What you are not talking is that you ,who has acquired so much knowledge and worshipped the supreme being with such a devotion, only to find that you no longer exist once you attain moksha.This sounds ridiculous to me. Sarbani: I quote below from Chaitanyamangal. The original is in Bengali, as you know Mahaprabhu hailed from Navadvip. The translation is below. "Ke tumi tomar putra ke be kar baap, micha tor mor kori koro anutaap ki nari purush ki ba ke ba kar pati, Shri Krishna charan boi onyo nahi gati. shei mata shei pita shei bandhujan, shei harta shei karta shei matra dhan ta binu shokoli micha kohinu e tatva, ta bina shokol mithya shokol jagat." Who are you? Who is your son? Who is whose father...these are false emotions over which you fret. Who is a man? Who is a woman? Who is whose husband? The way, the 'gati' leads only to the feet of Shri Krishna...there is no other way. He is your mother, father, friend, protector, master, your only treasure. Except him everything else is false, a lie and without him the whole world is a lie, unreal. Very similar to advaita isn't it? Just that the language is of bhakti, of divine love, in familiar one-to-one colloquial Bengali, rather than the pristine classicism of Sanskrit. Both Sankara and Chaitanya are speaking of the 'gati' as the only way to move, i.e. towards the feet of the Almighty. And that everything else is false. Also, it is another ingenuity of Advaita to describe the supreme being as a nirguna brahman - a god without attributes including conciousness!A god without conciousness,knowledge,power,compassion,name,form is not the one that i or for that matter anybody else wants.There is a huge difference between a formless/charecteristics less god and a god with infinite form who is omni present. Sarbani: It is a matter of personal choice whether you wish to worship him in his absolute nirgunahood or in a saguna form or both or sometimes one and sometimes the other. Why do you find it so difficult to accept that we are nothing, our existence is nothing, without Him or His will? The vaishnava sampradaya explains it so beautifully and simply...Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has said it again and again, that save Krishna, everything is maya...that it is from the Brahman the world has emerged, it is in the Brahman the world resides, and it is in the Brahman they merge once more (brahma hoite janam visva, brahmate jeeboy, punarapi shei brahme hoye jaye leen.). In fact he has spoken so clearly explaining the concept of maya and satchidananda, of the atma and prakrti, that the advaita principles become crystal clear. For fear of making the post too long, I am not quoting on this subject here. But he says that nirguna Krishna maybe known through gyan and in svarupa form Krishna exists in shaktirupa. He exists in the 'chitshakti-svarupa shakti' form. He speaks of the jeevatma as the 'amsa jeevas'. Consider this gem of his as an end note: 'I dwell in the world and the world in me. But in truth, neither the world dwells me in nor the world in me." Regards, Sarbani Regards, Kautilya --- Visti Larsen <vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk> wrote: > Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah > > -- > > Dear Kautilya, > There more to this, check bellow.. i always refer to > the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti > > There are 4 types of Mukti: > 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a > particular god, he will ultimately obtain a place in > the heavenly abode of that particular god. This is > called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of worship > followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a method > in which the seeker considers himself a slave and > the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising even > more intense devotion will not only obtain a place > in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the > qualities of the god he worships. The method of > worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'. Kriya > here means performing Pooja, Homa and other rituals. > > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even more > intense, the seeker will not only acquire the > qualities of the god he worships, but will also gain > a godly form and a place very near to God. This > method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the eight > steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships transcends > the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, the > seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma are > one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti. The > instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana means > realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya > Anitya Vastu Viveka. > The source is: > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm > Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth.. Who > are you really? > > Best wishes, Visti. > - > Vishnu Gupta > vedic astrology > Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:31 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and > Islam - To Visti > > > Dear Visti, > You are a great astrloger and avery knowledgeable > person.I have few disagreements with you on the > following mail. > > > Dear MD, > > The soul 'parks' its sense of individuality at > the > > doorstep, and realises that its non-different > from > > the rest of bhagawan/allah/god. > > As sudharshan has pointed out, from the vaishnava > sampradayas, there is no oneness or non difference > between soul and paramatma.. > > Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its > individuality > which is very distinct from the paramatma in > quantity > and quality.The soul is eternally dependent on the > paramatma for its sustenance. > > If in liberation, we are going to loose our > individual > identity, then there is no point in attaining > moksha.I > would rather prefer to take birth again and again > as i > will lead my own life... > > Regards, > Kautilya > > > > I am deeply agrieved to see people use such > > discriminating words such as 'islamic savage'. I > > would not dare teach astrology to someone who > uses > > such words, or has such values/beliefs, as this > far > > from qualifies one from being fit to USE this > > knowledge. What ill could a racist do with the > > knowledge of astrology? its like giving a > fisherman > > a torpedo. > > > > CORRECT YOURSELF! - Discrimination is also a > sin, > > and you won't be allowed into any higher lokas > where > > there are any 'islamic savages'.. instead you > will > > get a lower loka, with people of like-minds. > Free > > your mind. > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > > > > > > - > > monmuk111 > > vedic astrology > > Friday, September 06, 2002 8:14 PM > > [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and > Islam > > > > > > Dear Sudharsan: > > > > Even better said, I respect the feelings of > others > > on this board and > > will stop posting on this subject unless > provoked > > again by some > > Islamic savage. > > > > On another point, you mention that "we are > > permanent entities as > > souls," I agree. However, if soul is > permanent, > > what is moksha? Does > > moksha mean that the soul stops the cycle of > birth > > and re-birth? And > > if this is what moksha is, then where does the > > soul utlimately park > > itself after attainig moksha? > > > > Sudarsan: I've attempted to live a righteous > life > > so that I (my soul) > > attains moksha. Now, does my past life sins > > withold me from attaining > > moksha even though I've lived a righteious > life in > > the current life? > > > > Others on the board knowledgeable on this > subject > > are welcome to > > enlighten me as well. Thank you. > > > > MD > > > > vedic astrology, Sudharsan > Srinivasan > > <sudhar108> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hare Rama Krishna > > > Jaya Jagannatha > > > Dear List, > > > I think its time we step on the brakes with > this > > thread. This type > > of exchange certainly does not add to our > > knowledge nor does it > > encourage Sattwa which is very important in > our > > learning.Maybe we > > should gain some more knowledge about the > > transmigration of the soul > > and the fact that we are spirit souls and NOT > this > > body.Bodily > > identification is the root cause of all > bondage > > and miseries in this > > world.Some of us have Indian bodies and others > > have chinese bodies , > > American bodies and Pakistani bodies. > According to > > the Lord in the > > Srimad Baghavad Gita, some of us who identify > > ourselves as indians in > > this birth could have been pakistanis or Arabs > in > > our previous > > births.Can anyone here refute the same? Or can > > anyone here guarantee > > their birth again in India? > > > We are spirit souls , part and parcel of the > > Supreme Lord and since > > He is permanent and we are permanent entities > as > === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. ------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click./SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/.8XolB/TM ---~-> || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Dear Sarbani, Here are my comments: > > Sarbani: I thought the vaishnava sampradayas also > speak about merging...though in > > Krishna. It is the same surrendering of one's > identity and losing oneself. Krishna > > is just another way... When some one talks about surrendering oneself to Krishna, it does not mean one will lose his identity.It only means, one has to worship krshna thro knowledge and undiluted bhakti if one has to swim through this ocean of suffering and pain. > Both the advaita and the > vaishnava schools do not consider > > the question of what is of use and non-use to > mankind. That itself speaks of the > > existence of an ego. If the world is krishnamay, > then all dissolves in > > Krishna...please correct me if I am wrong... I did not speak with a sense of ego when i made that statement.All i was saying is that a man will not find spirtual satisfaction if he is told that the real god is the one who cannot see,feel,know,hear...Such a god is not appealing to the mankind... > Sarbani: I quote below from Chaitanyamangal. The > original is in Bengali, as you know > Mahaprabhu hailed from Navadvip. The translation is > below. > Who are you? Who is your son? Who is whose > father...these are false emotions over > which you fret. Who is a man? Who is a woman? Who is > whose husband? The way, the > 'gati' leads only to the feet of Shri > Krishna...there is no other way. He is your > mother, father, friend, protector, master, your only > treasure. Except him everything > else is false, a lie and without him the whole world > is a lie, unreal. I do not belong to this sampradaya.That does not matter.As far as i know, the Gaudiya parampara (Chaitanya is the leading light of that) distinguishes itself from Advaita on precisely this point - the thoery of oneness of Jiva and paramatma and the unreality of the world.Gaudiya parampara stands for the difference between jiva and paramatma, which is eternal.There are so many websites, official and unofficial, put up by the followers of Gaudiya parampara which you can refer on the internet.You are the first person i have read who has appropriated Chaintanya into Advaita. Anyways, i think you should not be literally interpreting the above verse.What it means is that the world is made of more suffering than happiness(which is temporary), and if one wants permanent happiness, Krishna is the only way... > Sarbani: It is a matter of personal choice whether > you wish to worship him in his > absolute nirgunahood or in a saguna form or both or > sometimes one and sometimes the > other. The question is not whether one wants to worship in which form.The question is :Who is the god finally ?Is the god a nirguna brahman, who is the only reality and all other things are Maya, according to Advaita ?All vaishnava schools are ferociously against this concept of brahman... The rest of your post below is again a missappropriation of Chaitanya.As i am not aware of what exactly Chaintanya has talked, i would leave the rebuttal of following to others who are followers of that school... Regards and take care, Kautilya Why do you find it so difficult to accept > that we are nothing, our existence > is nothing, without Him or His will? The vaishnava > sampradaya explains it so > beautifully and simply...Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has > said it again and again, that save > Krishna, everything is maya...that it is from the > Brahman the world has emerged, it > is in the Brahman the world resides, and it is in > the Brahman they merge once more > (brahma hoite janam visva, brahmate jeeboy, punarapi > shei brahme hoye jaye leen.). > In fact he has spoken so clearly explaining the > concept of maya and satchidananda, > of the atma and prakrti, that the advaita principles > become crystal clear. For fear > of making the post too long, I am not quoting on > this subject here. But he says that > nirguna Krishna maybe known through gyan and in > svarupa form Krishna exists in > shaktirupa. He exists in the 'chitshakti-svarupa > shakti' form. He speaks of the > jeevatma as the 'amsa jeevas'. Consider this gem of > his as an end note: 'I dwell in > the world and the world in me. But in truth, neither > the world dwells me in nor the > world in me." > > Regards, > > Sarbani > > > > > > > Regards, > > Kautilya > > > > --- Visti Larsen <vishnu wrote: > > > Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Dear Kautilya, > > > There more to this, check bellow.. i always > refer to > > > the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti > > > > > > There are 4 types of Mukti: > > > 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a > > > particular god, he will ultimately obtain a > place in > > > the heavenly abode of that particular god. This > is > > > called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of > worship > > > followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a > method > > > in which the seeker considers himself a slave > and > > > the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > > > > > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising > even > > > more intense devotion will not only obtain a > place > > > in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the > > > qualities of the god he worships. The method of > > > worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'. > Kriya > > > here means performing Pooja, Homa and other > rituals. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even > more > > > intense, the seeker will not only acquire the > > > qualities of the god he worships, but will also > gain > > > a godly form and a place very near to God. This > > > method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the > eight > > > steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > > > > > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships > transcends > > > the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, > the > > > seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma > are > > > one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti. > The > > > instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana > means > > > realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya > > > Anitya Vastu Viveka. > > > The source is: > > > > > > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm > > > Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth.. > Who > > > are you really? > > > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 Dear Vishnu, I too do not wish to continue this discussion here as it is off topic, but I would like to make a couple of comments. Firstly, I am not equating advaita and vaishnavism...Mahaprabhu did. I repeat again, there is no space here to quote the umpteen verses of his, I can give them to you via pesonal mail if you so wish. Do you have any idea what a great Shiva bhakt he was, of how he had travelled to all the important shaakta pilgrim points in India? I don't believe true knowledge can be got from the internet...I am quoting to you directly from Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Chaitanya Bhagavat and Chaitanya Mangal from their original Bengali. The language is utterly simple and unambigous and I am not twisting any interpretation or 'meaning' into them. You dismiss Mahaprabhu as a 'gaudiya sect'! Well, now we come to the bottom of things: you are espousing the views of YOUR partricular sect. Fair enough...but don't generalise those beliefs by clubbing them as a general vaishnava sampradaya view point. Also I am very interested as to why you are having so much problem in surrendering yourself at His feet? Very, very unusual for a vaisnavite...but don't reply onlist, otherwise I see a sharp warning from the List Moderators immanent! Regards, Sarbani Vishnu Gupta wrote: Dear Sarbani, Here are my comments: > > Sarbani: I thought the vaishnava sampradayas also > speak about merging...though in > > Krishna. It is the same surrendering of one's > identity and losing oneself. Krishna > > is just another way... When some one talks about surrendering oneself to Krishna, it does not mean one will lose his identity.It only means, one has to worship krshna thro knowledge and undiluted bhakti if one has to swim through this ocean of suffering and pain. > Both the advaita and the > vaishnava schools do not consider > > the question of what is of use and non-use to > mankind. That itself speaks of the > > existence of an ego. If the world is krishnamay, > then all dissolves in > > Krishna...please correct me if I am wrong... I did not speak with a sense of ego when i made that statement.All i was saying is that a man will not find spirtual satisfaction if he is told that the real god is the one who cannot see,feel,know,hear...Such a god is not appealing to the mankind... > Sarbani: I quote below from Chaitanyamangal. The > original is in Bengali, as you know > Mahaprabhu hailed from Navadvip. The translation is > below. > Who are you? Who is your son? Who is whose > father...these are false emotions over > which you fret. Who is a man? Who is a woman? Who is > whose husband? The way, the > 'gati' leads only to the feet of Shri > Krishna...there is no other way. He is your > mother, father, friend, protector, master, your only > treasure. Except him everything > else is false, a lie and without him the whole world > is a lie, unreal. I do not belong to this sampradaya.That does not matter.As far as i know, the Gaudiya parampara (Chaitanya is the leading light of that) distinguishes itself from Advaita on precisely this point - the thoery of oneness of Jiva and paramatma and the unreality of the world.Gaudiya parampara stands for the difference between jiva and paramatma, which is eternal.There are so many websites, official and unofficial, put up by the followers of Gaudiya parampara which you can refer on the internet.You are the first person i have read who has appropriated Chaintanya into Advaita. Anyways, i think you should not be literally interpreting the above verse.What it means is that the world is made of more suffering than happiness(which is temporary), and if one wants permanent happiness, Krishna is the only way... > Sarbani: It is a matter of personal choice whether > you wish to worship him in his > absolute nirgunahood or in a saguna form or both or > sometimes one and sometimes the > other. The question is not whether one wants to worship in which form.The question is :Who is the god finally ?Is the god a nirguna brahman, who is the only reality and all other things are Maya, according to Advaita ?All vaishnava schools are ferociously against this concept of brahman... The rest of your post below is again a missappropriation of Chaitanya.As i am not aware of what exactly Chaintanya has talked, i would leave the rebuttal of following to others who are followers of that school... Regards and take care, Kautilya Why do you find it so difficult to accept > that we are nothing, our existence > is nothing, without Him or His will? The vaishnava > sampradaya explains it so > beautifully and simply...Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has > said it again and again, that save > Krishna, everything is maya...that it is from the > Brahman the world has emerged, it > is in the Brahman the world resides, and it is in > the Brahman they merge once more > (brahma hoite janam visva, brahmate jeeboy, punarapi > shei brahme hoye jaye leen.). > In fact he has spoken so clearly explaining the > concept of maya and satchidananda, > of the atma and prakrti, that the advaita principles > become crystal clear. For fear > of making the post too long, I am not quoting on > this subject here. But he says that > nirguna Krishna maybe known through gyan and in > svarupa form Krishna exists in > shaktirupa. He exists in the 'chitshakti-svarupa > shakti' form. He speaks of the > jeevatma as the 'amsa jeevas'. Consider this gem of > his as an end note: 'I dwell in > the world and the world in me. But in truth, neither > the world dwells me in nor the > world in me." > > Regards, > > Sarbani > > > > > > > Regards, > > Kautilya > > > > --- Visti Larsen <vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk> wrote: > > > Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Dear Kautilya, > > > There more to this, check bellow.. i always > refer to > > > the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti > > > > > > There are 4 types of Mukti: > > > 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships a > > > particular god, he will ultimately obtain a > place in > > > the heavenly abode of that particular god. This > is > > > called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of > worship > > > followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a > method > > > in which the seeker considers himself a slave > and > > > the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > > > > > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising > even > > > more intense devotion will not only obtain a > place > > > in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire the > > > qualities of the god he worships. The method of > > > worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'. > Kriya > > > here means performing Pooja, Homa and other > rituals. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even > more > > > intense, the seeker will not only acquire the > > > qualities of the god he worships, but will also > gain > > > a godly form and a place very near to God. This > > > method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the > eight > > > steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > > > > > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships > transcends > > > the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, > the > > > seeker will realise that Jeevatma and Paramatma > are > > > one and the same. This is called Saayujya Mukti. > The > > > instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana > means > > > realising the Atma Tattva with the help of Nitya > > > Anitya Vastu Viveka. > > > The source is: > > > > > > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm > > > Realising the Atma, means to realise the truth.. > Who > > > are you really? > > > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. ------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click./pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/.8XolB/TM ---~-> || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 there r tides /waves in the sea. temporarily they create individual identity for themselves. but at the end they merge with the sea. someone may say,they they were never separete from the sea./ others will saythey r different fro the sea. now what 's the truth? prashant --- Vishnu Gupta <gurukautilya wrote: > Dear Visti, > > > Dear Kautilya, > > Characterless form is far from the truth.. rather > > the right term is full of character.. actually all > > the characters! > > Thanks for this clarification.This solved one of my > contention from your earlier post.And i think this > stand of your must be going agains the advaitic > tradition when advaita is interpreted as it is... > > But this still did not answer my other question > about > the need and validitity of claiming that jeevatma > and > paramatma are same or they merge with each other. > > > I will love to teach you more, but you must give > me > > something first. > > Best wishes, Visti. > > I would love to learn more about astrology,... > > REgards, > Rajendra R > > > > - > > Vishnu Gupta > > vedic astrology > > Saturday, September 07, 2002 2:25 PM > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology and > > Islam - To Visti > > > > > > Dear Visit, > > This is exactly what i have also refuted.That in > > moksha you lose your identity to merge into a > > nirguna > > brahman who does not have a consiciousness of > his > > own, > > appears to me of no use for the man kind. > > > > What you have referred to is the advaitic > > interpretation of the vedanta where as all the > > vaishnava sampradayas do not conform to this > > interpretation. > > > > My simple question is : If at all you are going > to > > lose your identity at the 4 th level of moksha, > > why do > > you want to achieve that ?What you are not > talking > > is > > that you ,who has acquired so much knowledge and > > worshipped the supreme being with such a > devotion, > > only to find that you no longer exist once you > > attain > > moksha.This sounds ridiculous to me. > > > > Also, it is another ingenuity of Advaita to > > describe > > the supreme being as a nirguna brahman - a god > > without > > attributes including conciousness!A god without > > > conciousness,knowledge,power,compassion,name,form > > is > > not the one that i or for that matter anybody > else > > wants.There is a huge difference between a > > formless/charecteristics less god and a god with > > infinite form who is omni present. > > > > Regards, > > Kautilya > > > > --- Visti Larsen <vishnu wrote: > > > Vyam Vysaadevaaya Namah > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Dear Kautilya, > > > There more to this, check bellow.. i always > > refer to > > > the 4th type when we talk about moksha/mukti > > > > > > There are 4 types of Mukti: > > > 1.. Saalokya Mukti : When a devotee worships > a > > > particular god, he will ultimately obtain a > > place in > > > the heavenly abode of that particular god. > This > > is > > > called as 'Saalokya Mukti'. The method of > > worship > > > followed here is called as 'Charya'. It is a > > method > > > in which the seeker considers himself a slave > > and > > > the god as the Supreme Lord. > > > > > > > > > 2.. Saaroopya Mukti : A devotee practising > > even > > > more intense devotion will not only obtain a > > place > > > in the heavenly abode, but will also acquire > the > > > qualities of the god he worships. The method > of > > > worship followed here is called as 'Kriya'. > > Kriya > > > here means performing Pooja, Homa and other > > rituals. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.. Saameepya Mukti: If the worship is even > > more > > > intense, the seeker will not only acquire the > > > qualities of the god he worships, but will > also > > gain > > > a godly form and a place very near to God. > This > > > method is called 'Yoga'. Here Yoga means the > > eight > > > steps of Ashtanga Yoga. > > > > > > > > > 4.. Saayujya Mukti : When the worships > > transcends > > > the Saguna form and reaches the Nirguna form, > > the > > > seeker will realise that Jeevatma and > Paramatma > > are > > > one and the same. This is called Saayujya > Mukti. > > The > > > instrument to obtain this is 'Jnana'. Jnana > > means > > > realising the Atma Tattva with the help of > Nitya > > > Anitya Vastu Viveka. > > > The source is: > > > > > > > > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/junejuly98/lessonsinvedanta32.htm > > > Realising the Atma, means to realise the > truth.. > > Who > > > are you really? > > > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > > > - > > > Vishnu Gupta > > > vedic astrology > > > Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:31 PM > > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Astrology > > and > > > Islam - To Visti > > > > > > > > > Dear Visti, > > > You are a great astrloger and avery > > knowledgeable > > > person.I have few disagreements with you on > > the > > > following mail. > > > > > > > Dear MD, > > > > The soul 'parks' its sense of > individuality > > at > > > the > > > > doorstep, and realises that its > > non-different > > > from > > > > the rest of bhagawan/allah/god. > > > > > > As sudharshan has pointed out, from the > > vaishnava > > > sampradayas, there is no oneness or non > > difference > > > between soul and paramatma.. > > > > > > Even in Moksha, the soul will retain its > > > individuality > > > which is very distinct from the paramatma in > > > quantity > === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. 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