Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 Dear astrologers.....Can women recite mantrapushpam at home or can it only be recited at temples by pujaris? regards Aru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 Dear Aru, why do you differentiate between man and woman? I do no think our scripture approve that. jk dasgupta - aru_dulla vedic astrology Wednesday, February 06, 2002 4:03 AM [vedic astrology] Mantrapushpam Dear astrologers.....Can women recite mantrapushpam at home or can it only be recited at temples by pujaris? regardsAru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dear Das.....I asked an orthodox tamil pujari in new york. He said that women should not recite it. But some telugu brahmins do it anyway. So, I wanted to clarify this doubt. thanx Aru > Dear Aru, > > why do you differentiate between man and woman? I do no think our scripture approve that. > > jk dasgupta > - > aru_dulla > vedic astrology > Wednesday, February 06, 2002 4:03 AM > [vedic astrology] Mantrapushpam > > > Dear astrologers.....Can women recite mantrapushpam at home or can it > only be recited at temples by pujaris? > > regards > Aru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dear Aru, All such orthodox people have played with the beatiful Hindu phylosophy for a long time and spoiled it. Actually Hindu phylosophy (i do not call it religion, it is the basic phylosophy of this universe) is not for dumbs and self centered persons. When the nature itself is worshipped as female, how females can be barred from performing any rituals, i have no logic. But u must follow your own logic. Regards, jk dasgupta - aru_dulla vedic astrology Wednesday, February 06, 2002 6:45 PM [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam Dear Das.....I asked an orthodox tamil pujari in new york. He said that women should not recite it. But some telugu brahmins do it anyway. So, I wanted to clarify this doubt.thanxAru> Dear Aru,> > why do you differentiate between man and woman? I do no think our scripture approve that.> > jk dasgupta> ----- Original Message ----- > aru_dulla > vedic astrology > Wednesday, February 06, 2002 4:03 AM> [vedic astrology] Mantrapushpam> > > Dear astrologers.....Can women recite mantrapushpam at home or can it > only be recited at temples by pujaris? > > regards> AruArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Thank you Dr. Dasgupta!! "J.K.Dasgupta" wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dear Sarbani, Sorry, i am not a Dr. just dasgupta. that too not a capital "D", a very very small "d" regards, jk dasgupta - Sarbani Sarkar vedic astrology Wednesday, February 06, 2002 8:17 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam Thank you Dr. Dasgupta!!"J.K.Dasgupta" wrote:> Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)> Encoding: quoted-printableArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dear jk dasguptaji I understand that you have a broad mind,and i appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like buddha)who understands that this whole universe is nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to behave according to the rules,for example he knows that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds background he knows that the pig is also a creation of brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it does not proclaim one religipon one country one people one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule for females and males,each have different rules,you cannot give same medicine to people suffering from different diseases..... I agree that females should be looked upon as equal to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we should not behave as if we are broad minded and the rishis who created these rules are nothing,we sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us rules only for our betterment,and not with bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to understand...... Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu gsr Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dear sreenivas, first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not a logic at all. second. please show me the scripture, where it is written there is seperate rules for women folks. in fact there are great women saints like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. read Mahabharata, where women were given equal, if not more rights & importance. regards, jk dasgupta - sreenivas g vedic astrology Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:05 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam Dear jk dasguptaji I understand that you have a broad mind,and iappreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,Forexample even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..likebuddha)who understands that this whole universe isnothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has tobehave according to the rules,for example he knowsthat a pig also is created by brahma,but he does notput his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has tostick to the rules of humans,only in his mindsbackground he knows that the pig is also a creation ofbrahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,itdoes not proclaim one religipon one country one peopleone language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rulefor females and males,each have different rules,youcannot give same medicine to people suffering fromdifferent diseases..... I agree that females should be looked upon as equalto man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scripturesgave different rules then we should adopt it,and weshould not behave as if we are broad minded and therishis who created these rules are nothing,wesometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules andwonder why the sexes have been seperated in thismanner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give usrules only for our betterment,and not withbias.......and the subject is too deep for us tounderstand...... Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am givingmy opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthugsr Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings!http://greetings.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Namaste friends. Equality does not mean that everyone has a right/duty to do everything. This is the root of misunderstanding. People can be equal doing their respective assigned duties (varna-asrama dharmas). Clearly the samskaras/dharmas prescribed for women are different from those prescribed for a man. The sages gave the path of fastest progress for each kind of person (man/woman/brahmana//vaishya etc.) out of compassion. The duties enjoined to various types of persons can be found in the various dharmasastras. For those who cannot follow the dharmasastras in the original modern day saints have interpreted them so lay people can understand and benefit from them. One such book is 'Hindu Dharma' which is a collection of speeches by the Paramacharya of Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati which has been published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Reading this is a must for clearing up such misconceptions. regards, Krishna. J.K.Dasgupta wrote: > Dear sreenivas, > > > > first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not a logic at all. > second. please show me the scripture, where it is written there is > seperate rules for women folks. in fact there are great women saints > like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. read Mahabharata, where women > were given equal, if not more rights & importance. > > > > regards, > > > > jk dasgupta > > - > > sreenivas g <gsreenivasr > > vedic astrology > <vedic astrology> > > Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:05 PM > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam > > > Dear jk dasguptaji > I understand that you have a broad mind,and i > appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For > example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like > buddha)who understands that this whole universe is > nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to > behave according to the rules,for example he knows > that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not > put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to > stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds > background he knows that the pig is also a creation of > brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it > does not proclaim one religipon one country one people > one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule > for females and males,each have different rules,you > cannot give same medicine to people suffering from > different diseases..... > I agree that females should be looked upon as equal > to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures > gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we > should not behave as if we are broad minded and the > rishis who created these rules are nothing,we > sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and > wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this > manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us > rules only for our betterment,and not with > bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to > understand...... > Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving > my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu > gsr > > > > > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! > http://greetings. > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Terms of Service > <>. > > > Sponsor > > <http://rd./M=213858.1879371.3379540.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705082686:H\ M/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Terms of Service > <>. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dear gsr, 1) How do you account for Maitreyi? 2) Is everything in the tradition good? There was no bad in it? Isn't it our duty to weed out the bad from both the tradition and modern? Sarbani sreenivas g wrote: Dear jk dasguptaji I understand that you have a broad mind,and i appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like buddha)who understands that this whole universe is nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to behave according to the rules,for example he knows that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds background he knows that the pig is also a creation of brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it does not proclaim one religipon one country one people one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule for females and males,each have different rules,you cannot give same medicine to people suffering from different diseases..... I agree that females should be looked upon as equal to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we should not behave as if we are broad minded and the rishis who created these rules are nothing,we sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us rules only for our betterment,and not with bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to understand...... Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu gsr Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Terms of Service. Attachment: (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmail7B.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmailJO.gif [not stored] Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dear Krishna, It is interesting that such decisions concerning women were and are being made by men. Such decisions should be made by woman as to whether they wish to pursue knowledge or not. I read the scriptures and I am a woman. No body can forbid me to do so. If they do, I can challenge them in court under Articles 14, 15 and 19 of the Constitution of the India. In the medieval times, the church used to burn women branding them as witches. This happens in India too where woman and men belonging to scheduled castes are burned alive under the logic of the varnashram dharma. Do you think this is right? You do not think as rational thinking beings, we repudiate the inhuman and deprecating tenets of the religions of both east and west? Religion was one of the main structures through which men maintained their authority over woman, through dominance. This is an established sociological truth. Preventing women from reading and being learned stemmed from a fear. Nevertheless we had Gargi, Maitreyee and the puranas cite stories of quite a few women who were 'bidushis'. Specially the Mahabharata. Preventing women from reading the scriptures or burning them, exhibit the same mindset and it existed in all parts of the world, including India. The rishis were learned, no doubt, but they were not gods, and they are not sacrosanct. If that were so, I should go against the constitutional law of our country which abolishes untouchability and allows them to enter our temples. If I followed the rishis in toto, then this too is against the code of 'everything is not for everybody'. I believe in a lot that our rishis have taught but I also believe in social justice and universal human values. We are living here, now, in 2002 A.D. Not in the time when the rishis were living. A lot water has flown since then. Each yug has its good and bad. And although it is crucial that we revive and rescue our lost traditions which are forgotten, it will be wise to forget the more discriminatory and inhuman elements of that age. You take the best from the and the best from now and that is how synthesis is made and evolution occurs. Krishna Padmasola wrote: Namaste friends. Equality does not mean that everyone has a right/duty to do everything. This is the root of misunderstanding. People can be equal doing their respective assigned duties (varna-asrama dharmas). Clearly the samskaras/dharmas prescribed for women are different from those prescribed for a man. The sages gave the path of fastest progress for each kind of person (man/woman/brahmana//vaishya etc.) out of compassion. The duties enjoined to various types of persons can be found in the various dharmasastras. For those who cannot follow the dharmasastras in the original modern day saints have interpreted them so lay people can understand and benefit from them. One such book is 'Hindu Dharma' which is a collection of speeches by the Paramacharya of Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati which has been published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Reading this is a must for clearing up such misconceptions. regards, Krishna. J.K.Dasgupta wrote: > Dear sreenivas, > > > > first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not a logic at all. > second. please show me the scripture, where it is written there is > seperate rules for women folks. in fact there are great women saints > like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. read Mahabharata, where women > were given equal, if not more rights & importance. > > > > regards, > > > > jk dasgupta > > - > > sreenivas g <gsreenivasr > > > vedic astrology > <vedic astrology> > > Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:05 PM > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam > > > Dear jk dasguptaji > I understand that you have a broad mind,and i > appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For > example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like > buddha)who understands that this whole universe is > nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to > behave according to the rules,for example he knows > that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not > put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to > stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds > background he knows that the pig is also a creation of > brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it > does not proclaim one religipon one country one people > one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule > for females and males,each have different rules,you > cannot give same medicine to people suffering from > different diseases..... > I agree that females should be looked upon as equal > to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures > gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we > should not behave as if we are broad minded and the > rishis who created these rules are nothing,we > sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and > wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this > manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us > rules only for our betterment,and not with > bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to > understand...... > Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving > my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu > gsr > > > > > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! > http://greetings. > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service > <>. > > > Sponsor > > <http://rd./M=213858.1879371.3379540.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705082686:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Terms of Service > <>. || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Terms of Service. Attachment: (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmailRI.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmail1N.gif [not stored] Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Hello, If I may join in: 1. Traditions may not be correct as per the scriptures; they represent current social norms. 2. Further more, many of the scriptures that we have today are proved to carry interpolations, inaccuracies, etc. I too agree that women are definitely EQUAL HALF - if not the better half - of our society. Shailesh Chandra Chadhascchadha (AT) hotmail (DOT) com - Sarbani Sarkar vedic astrology Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:55 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam Dear gsr, 1) How do you account for Maitreyi? 2) Is everything in the tradition good? There was no bad in it? Isn't it our duty to weed out the bad from both the tradition and modern? Sarbani sreenivas g wrote: Dear jk dasguptaji I understand that you have a broad mind,and i appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like buddha)who understands that this whole universe is nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to behave according to the rules,for example he knows that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds background he knows that the pig is also a creation of brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it does not proclaim one religipon one country one people one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule for females and males,each have different rules,you cannot give same medicine to people suffering from different diseases..... I agree that females should be looked upon as equal to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we should not behave as if we are broad minded and the rishis who created these rules are nothing,we sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us rules only for our betterment,and not with bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to understand...... Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu gsr Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. Archives: vedic astrology Group info: vedic astrology/info.html To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Namaste Sarbani, The nature of Dharma cannot be grasped by normal people (atindriya -- beyond the senses, is the word used to describe the nature of Dharma). Dharma differentiates a human from an animal. Some people may interpret Dharma to suit their own selfish interests and act accordingly (usually they act first and try to justify it later), but does that make the act dharmic (your examples of burning etc.)? The ideal of Dharma is very different from what you'll find in practice, especially in this yuga. One need not be surprised about it -- but that doesn't change the Dharma itself. regards, Krishna. P.S. I apologize for posting these articles which are not directly related to vedic astrology. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > Dear Krishna, > > It is interesting that such decisions concerning women were and are > being made by men. Such decisions should be made by woman as to whether > they wish to pursue knowledge or not. I read the scriptures and I am a > woman. No body can forbid me to do so. If they do, I can challenge them > in court under Articles 14, 15 and 19 of the Constitution of the India. > In the medieval times, the church used to burn women branding them as > witches. This happens in India too where woman and men belonging to > scheduled castes are burned alive under the logic of the varnashram > dharma. Do you think this is right? You do not think as rational > thinking beings, we repudiate the inhuman and deprecating tenets of the > religions of both east and west? Religion was one of the main structures > through which men maintained their authority over woman, through > dominance. This is an established sociological truth. Preventing women > from reading and being learned stemmed from a fear. Nevertheless we had > Gargi, Maitreyee and the puranas cite stories of quite a few women who > were 'bidushis'. Specially the Mahabharata. Preventing women from > reading the scriptures or burning them, exhibit the same mindset and it > existed in all parts of the world, including India. The rishis were > learned, no doubt, but they were not gods, and they are not sacrosanct. > If that were so, I should go against the constitutional law of our > country which abolishes untouchability and allows them to enter our > temples. If I followed the rishis in toto, then this too is against the > code of 'everything is not for everybody'. I believe in a lot that our > rishis have taught but I also believe in social justice and universal > human values. We are living here, now, in 2002 A.D. Not in the time when > the rishis were living. A lot water has flown since then. Each yug has > its good and bad. And although it is crucial that we revive and rescue > our lost traditions which are forgotten, it will be wise to forget the > more discriminatory and inhuman elements of that age. You take the best > from the and the best from now and that is how synthesis is made and > evolution occurs. > > Krishna Padmasola wrote: > > Namaste friends. > > Equality does not mean that everyone has a right/duty to do everything. > This is the root of misunderstanding. People can be equal doing their > respective assigned duties (varna-asrama dharmas). > > Clearly the samskaras/dharmas prescribed for women are different from > those prescribed for a man. The sages gave the path of fastest progress > for each kind of person (man/woman/brahmana//vaishya etc.) out of > compassion. The duties enjoined to various types of persons can be > found > in the various dharmasastras. > > For those who cannot follow the dharmasastras in the original modern > day > saints have interpreted them so lay people can understand and benefit > from them. One such book is 'Hindu Dharma' which is a collection of > speeches by the Paramacharya of Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati > which has been published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Reading this is a > must for clearing up such misconceptions. > > regards, > Krishna. > > > J.K.Dasgupta wrote: > > > Dear sreenivas, > > > > > > > > first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not a logic at all. > > second. please show me the scripture, where it is written there is > > seperate rules for women folks. in fact there are great women saints > > like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. read Mahabharata, > where women > > were given equal, if not more rights & importance. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > jk dasgupta > > > > - > > > > sreenivas g <gsreenivasr > > > > vedic astrology > > <vedic astrology> > > > > Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:05 PM > > > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam > > > > > > Dear jk dasguptaji > > I understand that you have a broad mind,and i > > appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For > > example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like > > buddha)who understands that this whole universe is > > nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to > > behave according to the rules,for example he knows > > that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not > > put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to > > stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds > > background he knows that the pig is also a creation of > > brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it > > does not proclaim one religipon one country one people > > one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule > > for females and males,each have different rules,you > > cannot give same medicine to people suffering from > > different diseases..... > > I agree that females should be looked upon as equal > > to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures > > gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we > > should not behave as if we are broad minded and the > > rishis who created these rules are nothing,we > > sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and > > wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this > > manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us > > rules only for our betterment,and not with > > bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to > > understand...... > > Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving > > my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu > > gsr > > > > > > > > > > > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! > > http://greetings. > > > > > > > > > > Group info: > vedic astrology/info.html > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to > vedic astrology- > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service > > <>. > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > <http://rd./M=213858.1879371.3379540.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705082686:H\ M/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to > vedic astrology- > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > > > > > Terms of Service > > <>. > > > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Terms of Service > <>. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Dear krishna, As you rightly say, we should not be discussing this here as this is off topic. This is my last post on the subject. You right in saying that the interpretations is different from the ideal. This is true not only for religion but also for other disciplines as well. But ergo, what if I have some problems with some tenets of the religious? I may be very spiritually inclined but I cannot accept some tenets of manusmriti, specially the varnashrama bits. It goes against certain sensibilities. Similarly I cannot accept that women cannot read/study the scriptures, specially the vedas. I already do. Now tell me in what way does it affect, my, yours or the world's sensibilities? You think by going 'against' the age-old decree, the sky has fallen on my head or that I have practised adharma? Contrarily, it has lifted me to a finer plane of spirituality. No, don't tell me, just think about it. Namaste, Sarbani Krishna Padmasola wrote: Namaste Sarbani, The nature of Dharma cannot be grasped by normal people (atindriya -- beyond the senses, is the word used to describe the nature of Dharma). Dharma differentiates a human from an animal. Some people may interpret Dharma to suit their own selfish interests and act accordingly (usually they act first and try to justify it later), but does that make the act dharmic (your examples of burning etc.)? The ideal of Dharma is very different from what you'll find in practice, especially in this yuga. One need not be surprised about it -- but that doesn't change the Dharma itself. regards, Krishna. P.S. I apologize for posting these articles which are not directly related to vedic astrology. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > Dear Krishna, > > It is interesting that such decisions concerning women were and are > being made by men. Such decisions should be made by woman as to whether > they wish to pursue knowledge or not. I read the scriptures and I am a > woman. No body can forbid me to do so. If they do, I can challenge them > in court under Articles 14, 15 and 19 of the Constitution of the India. > In the medieval times, the church used to burn women branding them as > witches. This happens in India too where woman and men belonging to > scheduled castes are burned alive under the logic of the varnashram > dharma. Do you think this is right? You do not think as rational > thinking beings, we repudiate the inhuman and deprecating tenets of the > religions of both east and west? Religion was one of the main structures > through which men maintained their authority over woman, through > dominance. This is an established sociological truth. Preventing women > from reading and being learned stemmed from a fear. Nevertheless we had > Gargi, Maitreyee and the puranas cite stories of quite a few women who > were 'bidushis'. Specially the Mahabharata. Preventing women from > reading the scriptures or burning them, exhibit the same mindset and it > existed in all parts of the world, including India. The rishis were > learned, no doubt, but they were not gods, and they are not sacrosanct. > If that were so, I should go against the constitutional law of our > country which abolishes untouchability and allows them to enter our > temples. If I followed the rishis in toto, then this too is against the > code of 'everything is not for everybody'. I believe in a lot that our > rishis have taught but I also believe in social justice and universal > human values. We are living here, now, in 2002 A.D. Not in the time when > the rishis were living. A lot water has flown since then. Each yug has > its good and bad. And although it is crucial that we revive and rescue > our lost traditions which are forgotten, it will be wise to forget the > more discriminatory and inhuman elements of that age. You take the best > from the and the best from now and that is how synthesis is made and > evolution occurs. > > Krishna Padmasola wrote: > > Namaste friends. > > Equality does not mean that everyone has a right/duty to do everything. > This is the root of misunderstanding. People can be equal doing their > respective assigned duties (varna-asrama dharmas). > > Clearly the samskaras/dharmas prescribed for women are different from > those prescribed for a man. The sages gave the path of fastest progress > for each kind of person (man/woman/brahmana//vaishya etc.) out of > compassion. The duties enjoined to various types of persons can be > found > in the various dharmasastras. > > For those who cannot follow the dharmasastras in the original modern > day > saints have interpreted them so lay people can understand and benefit > from them. One such book is 'Hindu Dharma' which is a collection of > speeches by the Paramacharya of Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati > which has been published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Reading this is a > must for clearing up such misconceptions. > > regards, > Krishna. > > > J.K.Dasgupta wrote: > > > Dear sreenivas, > > > > > > > > first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not a logic at all. > > second. please show me the scripture, where it is written there is > > seperate rules for women folks. in fact there are great women saints > > like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. read Mahabharata, > where women > > were given equal, if not more rights & importance. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > jk dasgupta > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > sreenivas g <gsreenivasr > > > > > vedic astrology > > <vedic astrology> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:05 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam > > > > > > Dear jk dasguptaji > > I understand that you have a broad mind,and i > > appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For > > example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like > > buddha)who understands that this whole universe is > > nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to > > behave according to the rules,for example he knows > > that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not > > put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to > > stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds > > background he knows that the pig is also a creation of > > brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it > > does not proclaim one religipon one country one people > > one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule > > for females and males,each have different rules,you > > cannot give same medicine to people suffering from > > different diseases..... > > I agree that females should be looked upon as equal > > to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures > > gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we > > should not behave as if we are broad minded and the > > rishis who created these rules are nothing,we > > sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and > > wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this > > manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us > > rules only for our betterment,and not with > > bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to > > understand...... > > Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving > > my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu > > gsr > > > > > > > > > > Do You ? > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! > > http://greetings. > > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology > > > > Group info: > vedic astrology/info.html > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to > vedic astrology- > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > > > Your use of is subject to the Terms of > Service > > <>. > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > <http://rd./M=213858.1879371.3379540.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705082686:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to > vedic astrology- > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > > > Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service > > <>. > > > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service > <>. > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Terms of Service. 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Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Dear Sarbani, I fully agree with you. At least that is what I have learned from Swami Chinmayanandaji. Regards, jk dasgupta - Sarbani Sarkar vedic astrology Thursday, February 07, 2002 4:14 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam Dear krishna, As you rightly say, we should not be discussing this here as this is off topic. This is my last post on the subject. You right in saying that the interpretations is different from the ideal. This is true not only for religion but also for other disciplines as well. But ergo, what if I have some problems with some tenets of the religious? I may be very spiritually inclined but I cannot accept some tenets of manusmriti, specially the varnashrama bits. It goes against certain sensibilities. Similarly I cannot accept that women cannot read/study the scriptures, specially the vedas. I already do. Now tell me in what way does it affect, my, yours or the world's sensibilities? You think by going 'against' the age-old decree, the sky has fallen on my head or that I have practised adharma? Contrarily, it has lifted me to a finer plane of spirituality. No, don't tell me, just think about it. Namaste, Sarbani Krishna Padmasola wrote: Namaste Sarbani, The nature of Dharma cannot be grasped by normal people (atindriya -- beyond the senses, is the word used to describe the nature of Dharma). Dharma differentiates a human from an animal. Some people may interpret Dharma to suit their own selfish interests and act accordingly (usually they act first and try to justify it later), but does that make the act dharmic (your examples of burning etc.)? The ideal of Dharma is very different from what you'll find in practice, especially in this yuga. One need not be surprised about it -- but that doesn't change the Dharma itself. regards, Krishna. P.S. I apologize for posting these articles which are not directly related to vedic astrology. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > Dear Krishna, > > It is interesting that such decisions concerning women were and are > being made by men. Such decisions should be made by woman as to whether > they wish to pursue knowledge or not. I read the scriptures and I am a > woman. No body can forbid me to do so. If they do, I can challenge them > in court under Articles 14, 15 and 19 of the Constitution of the India. > In the medieval times, the church used to burn women branding them as > witches. This happens in India too where woman and men belonging to > scheduled castes are burned alive under the logic of the varnashram > dharma. Do you think this is right? You do not think as rational > thinking beings, we repudiate the inhuman and deprecating tenets of the > religions of both east and west? Religion was one of the main structures > through which men maintained their authority over woman, through > dominance. This is an established sociological truth. Preventing women > from reading and being learned stemmed from a fear. Nevertheless we had > Gargi, Maitreyee and the puranas cite stories of quite a few women who > were 'bidushis'. Specially the Mahabharata. Preventing women from > reading the scriptures or burning them, exhibit the same mindset and it > existed in all parts of the world, including India. The rishis were > learned, no doubt, but they were not gods, and they are not sacrosanct. > If that were so, I should go against the constitutional law of our > country which abolishes untouchability and allows them to enter our > temples. If I followed the rishis in toto, then this too is against the > code of 'everything is not for everybody'. I believe in a lot that our > rishis have taught but I also believe in social justice and universal > human values. We are living here, now, in 2002 A.D. Not in the time when > the rishis were living. A lot water has flown since then. Each yug has > its good and bad. And although it is crucial that we revive and rescue > our lost traditions which are forgotten, it will be wise to forget the > more discriminatory and inhuman elements of that age. You take the best > from the and the best from now and that is how synthesis is made and > evolution occurs. > > Krishna Padmasola wrote: > > Namaste friends. > > Equality does not mean that everyone has a right/duty to do everything. > This is the root of misunderstanding. People can be equal doing their > respective assigned duties (varna-asrama dharmas). > > Clearly the samskaras/dharmas prescribed for women are different from > those prescribed for a man. The sages gave the path of fastest progress > for each kind of person (man/woman/brahmana//vaishya etc.) out of > compassion. The duties enjoined to various types of persons can be > found > in the various dharmasastras. > > For those who cannot follow the dharmasastras in the original modern > day > saints have interpreted them so lay people can understand and benefit > from them. One such book is 'Hindu Dharma' which is a collection of > speeches by the Paramacharya of Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati > which has been published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Reading this is a > must for clearing up such misconceptions. > > regards, > Krishna. > > > J.K.Dasgupta wrote: > > > Dear sreenivas, > > > > > > > > first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not a logic at all. > > second. please show me the scripture, where it is written there is > > seperate rules for women folks. in fact there are great women saints > > like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. read Mahabharata, > where women > > were given equal, if not more rights & importance. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > jk dasgupta > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > sreenivas g <gsreenivasr > > > > > To: vedic astrology > > <vedic astrology> > > > > Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:05 PM > > > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam > > > > > > Dear jk dasguptaji > > I understand that you have a broad mind,and i > > appreciate it,But sometimes rules are rules,For > > example even a brahma gyani(liberated sage..like > > buddha)who understands that this whole universe is > > nothing but brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)has to > > behave according to the rules,for example he knows > > that a pig also is created by brahma,but he does not > > put his mouth in the pigs mouth,because he has to > > stick to the rules of humans,only in his minds > > background he knows that the pig is also a creation of > > brahma......our Hindu religion is not imperialistic,it > > does not proclaim one religipon one country one people > > one language one finger one leg etc.....so no one rule > > for females and males,each have different rules,you > > cannot give same medicine to people suffering from > > different diseases..... > > I agree that females should be looked upon as equal > > to man(ex:ardha naareeshwara)but if the scriptures > > gave different rules then we should adopt it,and we > > should not behave as if we are broad minded and the > > rishis who created these rules are nothing,we > > sometimes get frustrated by seeing these rules and > > wonder why the sexes have been seperated in this > > manner,but the rishis are transcendental,they give us > > rules only for our betterment,and not with > > bias.......and the subject is too deep for us to > > understand...... > > Please excuse me if i have hurt you,but i am giving > > my opinion.....sarve jana sukhionobhavanthu > > gsr > > > > > > > > > > > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! > > http://greetings. > > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology > > > > Group info: > vedic astrology/info.html > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to > vedic astrology- > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service > > <>. > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > <http://rd./M=213858.1879371.3379540.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705082686:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> > > > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology > > > > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to > vedic astrology- > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > > > Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service > > <>. > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology > > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service > <>. > > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... 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Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 My Dear Dasguptaji!! This topic is becoming more and more ridiculous,So i think we should stop it,but before that let me throw some light on your questions to me....My dear dasji,any person with commonsense or a average IQ level would not say that i compared women to pigs!!!!!!!!how could you have linked my general example on human rules to women and pigs,please read the letter properly before jumping to conclusions ,because i directly referred women to ardhanaareeshwara and brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)which missed your observation,But you could faultily observe a negative meaning out of my letter........before attempting to answer a question first try to understand the question,because you people seem to be thinking that i or krishna ji or anybody over here are arguing that women should not get equal rights in matters with men,I/we are not male chauvinists......I think firmly that women and men are same,but what I/We mean here is that we should judge a situation very carefully because sometimes we do not have the Transcendental intelligence to view a situation in full perspective..for example some rishi says that this should not be done by women we should not immediately jump upon the conclusion that the rishi is biased ,it is for our own good only,but we do not understand its implications........Let me giv u a small example,Lord Buddha first did not want to take female Disciples,but some of his disciples even argued with him to admin them saying that they are equal with men,OFCOURSE Buddha knew that women and men are the same but he foresaw that in this case/situation women should not be taken,so while accepting females Buddha foretold that this Dharma would not last for long and he gave some years of its duration,And exactly that is what happened,Now in its own country of Origin Buddhism is wiped out......so u see dear,it was not because Buddha disliked Women,But he saw that in this situation it was not good to take them,which the ordinary disciples could not perceive,they behaved exactly like Dasguptaji and SrabaniJi,Thinking that they are wise...and eventually wiping out Buddhism.....so dont come into conclusions quickly you cannot understand the logic of Rishi's,school children cannot understand college level subjects ...dont react emotionally try to see things as they are....whenever anyone says that women must not do this do not fanatically try to rebel without understanding the situation,I know these days everyone wants to be a womens hero defending their rights,I am also one of them but atlease u should giv a chance to here and research on a situation from all sides.........One more example in the yogic texts it is warned that women should not do shirshana while undergoing periods,whereas a man can do it throughout the year,now people like shrabaniji and dasji would easily understand it and accept it because it is very clear that when a women does shirshana with her head down and her body and legs up while undergoing periods the impure blood might enter the body causing disease,so dasji and shrabaniji would not rebel or complain that why should not women do it in periods,because they can understand the logic,but when buddha said that women should not be admitted into the order dasji and shrabaniji will revolt and argue,why????? because thay cannot understand it,so that is what i am telling my dears that neighther buddha or the yoga treacher is biased but they gave decisions according to the situation.......And by the way Shrabaniji u were saying that rishis are not sancrosanct and not gods,..u see half knowledge is dangerous,Rishis were considered greater than gods,because u could reach gods only through their guidance,it is said that if god and guru came before u at the same time u should pay respects firstly to guru then only to god(guru brahma guru vishnu guru devo maheshwara),and do u know that even some gods came from rishis atleast u r interested in astrology then u should have common knowledge that even sun belongs to kasyapa(rishi) gotra lineage..even gods when born on earth have to hear to rishis advice otherwise they are useless..ex:Rama had to be advised by Agastya to recite aditya hridayam to kill ravan!!!!!did not kacha kick vishnu on the chest?..do not underestimate rishis...... If u blindly argue without reason that why should not a women do this?what happens,does hell break open,does sky fall down?? then let me say that a male or female or anything in this world has its own limitation and duty which should be done properly without comparing with others..nothing happens if a women ties mangalsutra on a mans neck or a man applies sindoor over his head,but they have a traditional significance ,if u break them sky does not fall but at the same time if u follow them also sky does not fall ,so unneccessarily we should not become a rebel without a cause........same here if a sage said that women should not do a thing,sky might not fall if we delibiratley did that thing but its better to respect him because he might be right.. ex: sunmicrosystems website has some documents which we can download them but it says that we should not distribute the documents,ofcourse sky does not fall if we did distribute the documents but we should respect suns warning because sun is the owner like a sage is the owner of a mantra or anything,and sun can go to court if u get caught while distributing and u have to pay for it,and every mantra has a rishi who gave it to us,and if he says that women should not recite it,ofcourse sky will not fall down if a women recites it,but it is morally wrong because it is like stealing it from the sage and not respecting him it is like petent infringement(i think shrabaniji knows about this well because she was quoting constitutional articles ),dont u know what happened when ekalavya stole dhanurvidya from drona,ofcourse nothing happened to ekalavya the sky did not fall down even when he practised dronas technique eventhough drona did not want ekalavya to learn it but he had to pay in the end,and bye the way it is dronas wish to allow or not to allow ekalavya to practise his dhanurvidya tecchnique because he invented it!!!!!.........this whole mail thing is loking so awkward and childish so let us all not continue it friends.......before this last mail from me over this topic let me say that gayatri mantra is said to be worshipped by only the three varnas,but yajnavalkya and even manu permit this mantra to be recited by even shudras and women"samano mantra........."manu meant that let there be a common mantra for all people,and it is gayatri mantra,so u see shrabaniji i do not object it,but i keep my mind open without prejudice and try to understand what a rishi says when he objects anything...... regards gsr --- "J.K.Dasgupta" <jkdasgupta_in wrote: > Dear sreenivas, > > first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not > a logic at all. second. please show me the > scripture, where it is written there is seperate > rules for women folks. in fact there are great women > saints like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. > read Mahabharata, where women were given equal, if > not more rights & importance. > > regards, > > jk dasgupta --- "J.K.Dasgupta" <jkdasgupta_in wrote: > Dear Sarbani, > > I fully agree with you. At least that is what I have > learned from Swami Chinmayanandaji. > > Regards, > > jk dasgupta > - > Sarbani Sarkar > vedic astrology > Thursday, February 07, 2002 4:14 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam > > > Dear krishna, > As you rightly say, we should not be discussing > this here as this is off topic. This is my last post > on the subject. You right in saying that the > interpretations is different from the ideal. This is > true not only for religion but also for other > disciplines as well. But ergo, what if I have some > problems with some tenets of the religious? I may be > very spiritually inclined but I cannot accept some > tenets of manusmriti, specially the varnashrama > bits. It goes against certain sensibilities. > Similarly I cannot accept that women cannot > read/study the scriptures, specially the vedas. I > already do. Now tell me in what way does it affect, > my, yours or the world's sensibilities? You think by > going 'against' the age-old decree, the sky has > fallen on my head or that I have practised adharma? > Contrarily, it has lifted me to a finer plane of > spirituality. No, don't tell me, just think about > it. > > Namaste, > Sarbani > > Krishna Padmasola wrote: > > Namaste Sarbani, > The nature of Dharma cannot be grasped by normal > people (atindriya -- > beyond the senses, is the word used to describe > the nature of Dharma). > Dharma differentiates a human from an animal. > > Some people may interpret Dharma to suit their > own selfish interests and > act accordingly (usually they act first and try > to justify it later), > but does that make the act dharmic (your > examples of burning etc.)? > > The ideal of Dharma is very different from what > you'll find in practice, > especially in this yuga. One need not be > surprised about it -- but that > doesn't change the Dharma itself. > > regards, > Krishna. > > P.S. I apologize for posting these articles > which are not directly > related to vedic astrology. > > > Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > Dear Krishna, > > > > It is interesting that such decisions > concerning women were and are > > being made by men. Such decisions should be > made by woman as to whether > > they wish to pursue knowledge or not. I read > the scriptures and I am a > > woman. No body can forbid me to do so. If they > do, I can challenge them > > in court under Articles 14, 15 and 19 of the > Constitution of the India. > > In the medieval times, the church used to burn > women branding them as > > witches. This happens in India too where woman > and men belonging to > > scheduled castes are burned alive under the > logic of the varnashram > > dharma. Do you think this is right? You do not > think as rational > > thinking beings, we repudiate the inhuman and > deprecating tenets of the > > religions of both east and west? Religion was > one of the main structures > > through which men maintained their authority > over woman, through > > dominance. This is an established sociological > truth. Preventing women > > from reading and being learned stemmed from a > fear. Nevertheless we had > > Gargi, Maitreyee and the puranas cite stories > of quite a few women who > > were 'bidushis'. Specially the Mahabharata. > Preventing women from > > reading the scriptures or burning them, > exhibit the same mindset and it > > existed in all parts of the world, including > India. The rishis were > > learned, no doubt, but they were not gods, and > they are not sacrosanct. > > If that were so, I should go against the > constitutional law of our > > country which abolishes untouchability and > allows them to enter our > > temples. If I followed the rishis in toto, > then this too is against the > > code of 'everything is not for everybody'. I > believe in a lot that our > > rishis have taught but I also believe in > social justice and universal > > human values. We are living here, now, in 2002 > A.D. Not in the time when > > the rishis were living. A lot water has flown > since then. Each yug has > > its good and bad. And although it is crucial > that we revive and rescue > > our lost traditions which are forgotten, it > will be wise to forget the > > more discriminatory and inhuman elements of > that age. You take the best > > from the and the best from now and that is how > synthesis is made and > > evolution occurs. > > > > Krishna Padmasola wrote: > > > > Namaste friends. > > > > Equality does not mean that everyone has a > right/duty to do everything. > > This is the root of misunderstanding. > People can be equal doing their > > respective assigned duties (varna-asrama > dharmas). > > > > Clearly the samskaras/dharmas prescribed > for women are different from > > those prescribed for a man. The sages gave > the path of fastest progress > > for each kind of person > (man/woman/brahmana//vaishya etc.) out of > > compassion. The duties enjoined to various > types of persons can be > > found > > in the various dharmasastras. > > > > For those who cannot follow the > dharmasastras in the original modern > > day > > saints have interpreted them so lay people > can understand and benefit > > from them. One such book is 'Hindu Dharma' > which is a collection of > > speeches by the Paramacharya of Kanchi Sri > Chandrasekharendra Saraswati > > which has been published by Bharatiya > Vidya Bhavan. Reading this is a > > must for clearing up such misconceptions. > > > > regards, > > Krishna. > > > > > > J.K.Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > Dear sreenivas, > > > > > > > > > > > > first, you cannot compare women with > pigs, it is not a logic at all. > > > second. please show me the scripture, > where it is written there is > > > seperate rules for women folks. in fact > there are great women saints > > > like gargi, maitreyi - who were > respected. read Mahabharata, > > where women > > > were given equal, if not more rights & > importance. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > jk dasgupta > > > > > > - > === message truncated === Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Dear Sreenivas, As Krishna Padmasola and I both agreed that this topic is off-list, we have been discussing it privately. And though our positions may differ, we are having, a dialogue. Your post on the other hand is truly not worth replying to, but since you haven taken my name so many times (wrongly at that too, so much for half-knowledge), I feel I need to retort on some points at the very least. Please consider this as my closing remarks to you. Apologies, dear list members, for subjecting you to this uninformed and gross exchange. I promise, not to stir the hornets nest further. Let order be restored. Sreenivas, firstly, your post is inarticulate, garbled and bordering on hysteria. Dasgupta and I are not rebels. And I or other women do not need to fight for our rights, it is inherent in us, as a human being. I think what Dasgupta was trying to point out was the decontextualization of your arguements. What you may be saying about pigs, Buddha and the shirshasan is not the point under consideration. Biological differences between the male and female of the species is understood by all and the example of shirshasan is not being challenged here. The point under consideration is whether women can read/chant/ vedas, with particular reference to mantrapushpam, as raised by Aru. (Dear Aru, we have forgotten you in all this. May I gift you with my copy of the mantrapushpam with accompanying cassettes? Meanwhile the polemics can continue.) The question being raised is that women have the same right to access knowledge or gyan like a man does. (Obviously gyan here inlcudes the broader meaning of brahmagyan). And the same capacity to comprehend it. They are not lesser being in this context. Women are not evil that misfortune will be dealt to the world if they recite the vedas. Tell me in what way are you better equipped to recite mantrapushpam than Aru? The distinction should be only made on merit. It is a well established fact that preventing women or lower castes from access to scriptural knowledge is a structure of dominance. And the crumbling walls of these structures are being upheld by people like you. Because it is convenient for you. Why are you only talking about Sita? Women in our country should stop emulating Sita and follow the examples of Gargi, Maitreyee, Draupadi. Till then their lot will not improve. It is convenient for men like you if women behave in the all-suffering, self-sacrificing role model of Sita. This does not mean that women are renouncing motherhood (as list member Rajinder wrote). It just means that they are unwilling to be trodden upon anymore and that this yug requires a diferent role model. As for half knowledge, I don't claim to have knowledge about anything, not even an iota. It might take me several lifetimes to gain even a drop of knowledge about anything. But that does not mean I will pass your gibberish without voicing my protest. I do not underestimate the rishis. They were gyanis but not infallible. Only the Great Rishi is infallible. The gurur brahma mantra refers to Isvar, the Paramguru or Sriguru, who exists by enveloping the cosmos...akhnadamandalakaram vyaptam yena characharam...it is this Sriguru who is Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwara. The 'chit' rup sacchidanandam is the guru who is referred to here in this shloka. Vedas is all about Him, and knowing Him. (Actually it should It and not Him, as the Atman is beyond gender). Please understand nothing else matters. Your rituals do not matter, they are merely the walking sticks, the guiding tools for mortal man. They are not sacrosanct. Only Isvar is sacrosanct. You are caught in the maya that is why you cannot see beyond rituals and vidhi. I am not saying discard rituals but learn to see beyond them, and then you will only see the Atman, and the rest will fall away as unnecessary items. This is the 'saar' of the Vedas. And on that note...please do not continue with this thread. My apologies once again to list members. (P.S. my name is Sarbani and not Srabani. Srabani is derived from Sravan, the monsoon month, while Sarbani is one of the 108 names of Durga. Needless to say, she inspires me, all the time). Sarbani sreenivas g wrote: My Dear Dasguptaji!! This topic is becoming more and more ridiculous,So i think we should stop it,but before that let me throw some light on your questions to me....My dear dasji,any person with commonsense or a average IQ level would not say that i compared women to pigs!!!!!!!!how could you have linked my general example on human rules to women and pigs,please read the letter properly before jumping to conclusions ,because i directly referred women to ardhanaareeshwara and brahma(sarvam khalvidam brahma)which missed your observation,But you could faultily observe a negative meaning out of my letter........before attempting to answer a question first try to understand the question,because you people seem to be thinking that i or krishna ji or anybody over here are arguing that women should not get equal rights in matters with men,I/we are not male chauvinists......I think firmly that women and men are same,but what I/We mean here is that we should judge a situation very carefully because sometimes we do not have the Transcendental intelligence to view a situation in full perspective..for example some rishi says that this should not be done by women we should not immediately jump upon the conclusion that the rishi is biased ,it is for our own good only,but we do not understand its implications........Let me giv u a small example,Lord Buddha first did not want to take female Disciples,but some of his disciples even argued with him to admin them saying that they are equal with men,OFCOURSE Buddha knew that women and men are the same but he foresaw that in this case/situation women should not be taken,so while accepting females Buddha foretold that this Dharma would not last for long and he gave some years of its duration,And exactly that is what happened,Now in its own country of Origin Buddhism is wiped out......so u see dear,it was not because Buddha disliked Women,But he saw that in this situation it was not good to take them,which the ordinary disciples could not perceive,they behaved exactly like Dasguptaji and SrabaniJi,Thinking that they are wise...and eventually wiping out Buddhism.....so dont come into conclusions quickly you cannot understand the logic of Rishi's,school children cannot understand college level subjects ...dont react emotionally try to see things as they are....whenever anyone says that women must not do this do not fanatically try to rebel without understanding the situation,I know these days everyone wants to be a womens hero defending their rights,I am also one of them but atlease u should giv a chance to here and research on a situation from all sides.........One more example in the yogic texts it is warned that women should not do shirshana while undergoing periods,whereas a man can do it throughout the year,now people like shrabaniji and dasji would easily understand it and accept it because it is very clear that when a women does shirshana with her head down and her body and legs up while undergoing periods the impure blood might enter the body causing disease,so dasji and shrabaniji would not rebel or complain that why should not women do it in periods,because they can understand the logic,but when buddha said that women should not be admitted into the order dasji and shrabaniji will revolt and argue,why????? because thay cannot understand it,so that is what i am telling my dears that neighther buddha or the yoga treacher is biased but they gave decisions according to the situation.......And by the way Shrabaniji u were saying that rishis are not sancrosanct and not gods,..u see half knowledge is dangerous,Rishis were considered greater than gods,because u could reach gods only through their guidance,it is said that if god and guru came before u at the same time u should pay respects firstly to guru then only to god(guru brahma guru vishnu guru devo maheshwara),and do u know that even some gods came from rishis atleast u r interested in astrology then u should have common knowledge that even sun belongs to kasyapa(rishi) gotra lineage..even gods when born on earth have to hear to rishis advice otherwise they are useless..ex:Rama had to be advised by Agastya to recite aditya hridayam to kill ravan!!!!!did not kacha kick vishnu on the chest?..do not underestimate rishis...... If u blindly argue without reason that why should not a women do this?what happens,does hell break open,does sky fall down?? then let me say that a male or female or anything in this world has its own limitation and duty which should be done properly without comparing with others..nothing happens if a women ties mangalsutra on a mans neck or a man applies sindoor over his head,but they have a traditional significance ,if u break them sky does not fall but at the same time if u follow them also sky does not fall ,so unneccessarily we should not become a rebel without a cause........same here if a sage said that women should not do a thing,sky might not fall if we delibiratley did that thing but its better to respect him because he might be right.. ex: sunmicrosystems website has some documents which we can download them but it says that we should not distribute the documents,ofcourse sky does not fall if we did distribute the documents but we should respect suns warning because sun is the owner like a sage is the owner of a mantra or anything,and sun can go to court if u get caught while distributing and u have to pay for it,and every mantra has a rishi who gave it to us,and if he says that women should not recite it,ofcourse sky will not fall down if a women recites it,but it is morally wrong because it is like stealing it from the sage and not respecting him it is like petent infringement(i think shrabaniji knows about this well because she was quoting constitutional articles ),dont u know what happened when ekalavya stole dhanurvidya from drona,ofcourse nothing happened to ekalavya the sky did not fall down even when he practised dronas technique eventhough drona did not want ekalavya to learn it but he had to pay in the end,and bye the way it is dronas wish to allow or not to allow ekalavya to practise his dhanurvidya tecchnique because he invented it!!!!!.........this whole mail thing is loking so awkward and childish so let us all not continue it friends.......before this last mail from me over this topic let me say that gayatri mantra is said to be worshipped by only the three varnas,but yajnavalkya and even manu permit this mantra to be recited by even shudras and women"samano mantra........."manu meant that let there be a common mantra for all people,and it is gayatri mantra,so u see shrabaniji i do not object it,but i keep my mind open without prejudice and try to understand what a rishi says when he objects anything...... regards gsr --- "J.K.Dasgupta" <jkdasgupta_in > wrote: > Dear sreenivas, > > first, you cannot compare women with pigs, it is not > a logic at all. second. please show me the > scripture, where it is written there is seperate > rules for women folks. in fact there are great women > saints like gargi, maitreyi - who were respected. > read Mahabharata, where women were given equal, if > not more rights & importance. > > regards, > > jk dasgupta --- "J.K.Dasgupta" <jkdasgupta_in > wrote: > Dear Sarbani, > > I fully agree with you. At least that is what I have > learned from Swami Chinmayanandaji. > > Regards, > > jk dasgupta > - > Sarbani Sarkar > vedic astrology > Thursday, February 07, 2002 4:14 PM > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mantrapushpam > > > Dear krishna, > As you rightly say, we should not be discussing > this here as this is off topic. This is my last post > on the subject. You right in saying that the > interpretations is different from the ideal. This is > true not only for religion but also for other > disciplines as well. But ergo, what if I have some > problems with some tenets of the religious? I may be > very spiritually inclined but I cannot accept some > tenets of manusmriti, specially the varnashrama > bits. It goes against certain sensibilities. > Similarly I cannot accept that women cannot > read/study the scriptures, specially the vedas. I > already do. Now tell me in what way does it affect, > my, yours or the world's sensibilities? You think by > going 'against' the age-old decree, the sky has > fallen on my head or that I have practised adharma? > Contrarily, it has lifted me to a finer plane of > spirituality. No, don't tell me, just think about > it. > > Namaste, > Sarbani > > Krishna Padmasola wrote: > > Namaste Sarbani, > The nature of Dharma cannot be grasped by normal > people (atindriya -- > beyond the senses, is the word used to describe > the nature of Dharma). > Dharma differentiates a human from an animal. > > Some people may interpret Dharma to suit their > own selfish interests and > act accordingly (usually they act first and try > to justify it later), > but does that make the act dharmic (your > examples of burning etc.)? > > The ideal of Dharma is very different from what > you'll find in practice, > especially in this yuga. One need not be > surprised about it -- but that > doesn't change the Dharma itself. > > regards, > Krishna. > > P.S. I apologize for posting these articles > which are not directly > related to vedic astrology. > > > Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > Dear Krishna, > > > > It is interesting that such decisions > concerning women were and are > > being made by men. Such decisions should be > made by woman as to whether > > they wish to pursue knowledge or not. I read > the scriptures and I am a > > woman. No body can forbid me to do so. If they > do, I can challenge them > > in court under Articles 14, 15 and 19 of the > Constitution of the India. > > In the medieval times, the church used to burn > women branding them as > > witches. This happens in India too where woman > and men belonging to > > scheduled castes are burned alive under the > logic of the varnashram > > dharma. Do you think this is right? You do not > think as rational > > thinking beings, we repudiate the inhuman and > deprecating tenets of the > > religions of both east and west? Religion was > one of the main structures > > through which men maintained their authority > over woman, through > > dominance. This is an established sociological > truth. Preventing women > > from reading and being learned stemmed from a > fear. Nevertheless we had > > Gargi, Maitreyee and the puranas cite stories > of quite a few women who > > were 'bidushis'. Specially the Mahabharata. > Preventing women from > > reading the scriptures or burning them, > exhibit the same mindset and it > > existed in all parts of the world, including > India. The rishis were > > learned, no doubt, but they were not gods, and > they are not sacrosanct. > > If that were so, I should go against the > constitutional law of our > > country which abolishes untouchability and > allows them to enter our > > temples. If I followed the rishis in toto, > then this too is against the > > code of 'everything is not for everybody'. I > believe in a lot that our > > rishis have taught but I also believe in > social justice and universal > > human values. We are living here, now, in 2002 > A.D. Not in the time when > > the rishis were living. A lot water has flown > since then. Each yug has > > its good and bad. And although it is crucial > that we revive and rescue > > our lost traditions which are forgotten, it > will be wise to forget the > > more discriminatory and inhuman elements of > that age. You take the best > > from the and the best from now and that is how > synthesis is made and > > evolution occurs. > > > > Krishna Padmasola wrote: > > > > Namaste friends. > > > > Equality does not mean that everyone has a > right/duty to do everything. > > This is the root of misunderstanding. > People can be equal doing their > > respective assigned duties (varna-asrama > dharmas). > > > > Clearly the samskaras/dharmas prescribed > for women are different from > > those prescribed for a man. The sages gave > the path of fastest progress > > for each kind of person > (man/woman/brahmana//vaishya etc.) out of > > compassion. The duties enjoined to various > types of persons can be > > found > > in the various dharmasastras. > > > > For those who cannot follow the > dharmasastras in the original modern > > day > > saints have interpreted them so lay people > can understand and benefit > > from them. One such book is 'Hindu Dharma' > which is a collection of > > speeches by the Paramacharya of Kanchi Sri > Chandrasekharendra Saraswati > > which has been published by Bharatiya > Vidya Bhavan. Reading this is a > > must for clearing up such misconceptions. > > > > regards, > > Krishna. > > > > > > J.K.Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > Dear sreenivas, > > > > > > > > > > > > first, you cannot compare women with > pigs, it is not a logic at all. > > > second. please show me the scripture, > where it is written there is > > > seperate rules for women folks. in fact > there are great women saints > > > like gargi, maitreyi - who were > respected. read Mahabharata, > > where women > > > were given equal, if not more rights & > importance. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > jk dasgupta > > > > > > - > === message truncated === Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Terms of Service. 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