Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Namaste to all Group members, I apologise in advance for posting another long message to the group. This message has none of the obviously useful things, such as new techniques etc, but I hope it will be thought-provoking and will make us think harder and better about Jyotish. As I read analysis after analysis of charts in Jyotish books by virtually every author, one thing really stands out - the correlation of the well known events in the person's life with the chart. On the face of it, this would seem like a strong endorsement of the analysis. To my mind, however, this is one of the reasons why I think post-event analysis serve little purpose. Rarely is real life that simple... public perceptions of a person are very unlikely to be reality. A "macho actor" may not be a macho man in reality, but circumstances may have created that image for him. So too for a "holy man", or a "social worker". I would expect astrology, when used properly, to throw light on the REAL person, not merely reinforce his public image. A writer once asked Aurobindo for permission to write a biography, to which Aurobindo was said to have made the pointed remark - "You can only write about my life as it is seen on the surface, but the fact is, my life as I lived it, is not reflected on the surface". In other words, he meant that the outer facts of his life did not portray the reality of his life at all. While Aurobindo was a mystic, this is true to a lesser, but still significant extent with just about anybody, especially public figures (prime targets for post-fact astrological analysis). The real personality of Nehru was quite different from the one that is usually projected. In inside circles, he was reputed to be a womaniser, and power-monger. He was English-educated and did not think much of his roots, he very much endorsed the view that astrology and other Indian sastras had nothing to them. His craving to be the first Prime Minister of Independent India is reputed to even be a major factor in the partition of India. And undoubtedly, his need to win appreciation in international circles caused him to bungle the Kashmir issue badly. Most people of those days who have followed politics will confirm this. Nehru's simplistic popular image as a great patriot and leader is one that has simply been built up assidously by the Congress party, in order to keep the Nehru dynasty going. The media is extremely powerful today, and you can imagine how powerful a government-directed media could be before the days of the Internet and independent TV stations. However, if you read Raman's analysis of Nehru's chart, it very much matches the "projected image". Even more interestingly, Raman makes several references to the Navamsa lagna and to Dasa-Bhuktis for past events. These are different with Raman's ayanamsa, but he is able to explain perfectly the events! I can post Raman's entire analysis of Nehru's chart if there is sufficient interest. But to me, it is clear that he is reading Nehru's known life events into the chart, and not vice versa. Raman is a great astrologer, and I attribute no ulterior motive to him, but I only state this as an inbuilt weakness of post-fact analysis. If this is the case with Raman, what of other astrologers? Here is another example: Narasimha wrote: > Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:33 pm > Re: The mysterious UpaGrahas... > (6) Vimsottari dasa can be initiated based on the longitude of > Maandi (instead of Moon). This dasa shows the sufferings. In > the dasa of 10th lord, career can suffer. In the dasa of 5th > lord, reputation or children may suffer. For example, JFK Jr > died in "Maandi Vimsottari" dasa of 8th lord and antardasa of > 3rd lord. Indian politician Jayalalita will soon start Maandi > Vimsottari dasa antardasa of 10th lord and she may have > setbacks in career. Note the date. This was written in October 2000. At this time, Jayalalita was "down and out". It looked as if she had no hope at all of coming back to power. That was the general perception - that she was going to be prosecuted, was going to be disqualified from contesting elections and so on. Sure enough, Narasimha is able to correlate the physical reality with some astrological factor in her chart - the start of Maandi Vimshottari dasa-antar dasa of 10th lord. Now, by the middle of 2001, it became very clear that Jayalalita, for a variety of reasons, WAS actually able to become the Chief Minister of her state. Narasimha's analyses at this point now find astrological factors that will explain this: > Fri Jun 1, 2001 7:08 pm > Re: Tribhagi Variation >As Uttarashadha 2nd quarter is in the 8th house, Sun dasa saw her >losing power. From the second half of Dhanishtha, 8th house ends >and the 9th house starts. So her woes ended in the second half of >Mars dasa corresponding to Dhanishtha (2000-2002)! From Dhanishtha, >karma nakshatra (start of activities) has vedha from exalted Venus >(GL lord!) and abhisheka nakshatra (star of coronation) has vedha >from Sun. This dasa gave her kingdom (chief ministership). And... > Fri Jul 6, 2001 5:45 am > Another Moola Dasa Example > In August 2000, Ketu dasa started. It will last till June 2006 >(time of next elections if her government lasts 5 years!). > In rasi chart (of this life), Ketu is in GL and HL and shows power > and wealth. In D-60 of past life, as pointed out, he shows > meticulous devotion and strong spirituality in own 12th house. The > fruits of this good karma can be enjoyed in this life in Ketu's > Moola dasa. Being in GL in rasi chart, Ketu gave controversial > (Ketu-like!) power in his dasa. > However, Saturn's 12-year dasa will come in 2006 June. Unless very > strong remedial measures are undertaken, the native may suffer much > for the acts of adharma committed in past life. Sure enough... her government is scheduled to be in office for five years. It is already somewhat clear that she will not be elected back. Sure enough - you say she "may suffer" at that time! And all this with an uncertain birth place, time, and possibly even birth date!! (remember, she was an actress). My point is not to cast aspersions on Narasimha's astrological ability, but to point out that he is clearly being influenced by the flow of events here, and that this is a HUGE problem with post-fact astrological analysis. I remain, Mahalinga Iyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Dear Mahalinga. As always your mind is ever pondering all the ailments of prediction, and ur questionining will test the foundation, shake it, and strengthen it. Only a person sincere enough, and willing to work towards finding the truth, will admit that sometimes they can't explain the events, and sometimes they cannot. Thats why we have Guru's, that preach us perfection. There are many that once trying to comprehend all the rules given to us, find contradictions, and simply leave astrology alone, until they can comprehend it. My solution is devotion. Best wishes, Visti. - mahalinga_iyer vedic astrology Sunday, July 22, 2001 8:41 AM [vedic astrology] Post-fact astrological analyses (long) Namaste to all Group members,I apologise in advance for posting another long message to the group.This message has none of the obviously useful things, such as newtechniques etc, but I hope it will be thought-provoking and will makeus think harder and better about Jyotish.As I read analysis after analysis of charts in Jyotish books by virtually every author, one thing really stands out - the correlation of the well known events in the person's life with the chart. On the face of it, this would seem like a strong endorsement of the analysis. To my mind, however, this is one of the reasons why I think post-event analysis serve little purpose. Rarely is real life that simple... public perceptions of a person are very unlikely to be reality. A "macho actor" may not be a macho man in reality, but circumstances may have created that image for him. So too for a "holy man", or a "social worker". I would expect astrology, when used properly, to throw light on the REAL person, not merely reinforce his public image. A writer once asked Aurobindo for permission to write a biography, towhich Aurobindo was said to have made the pointed remark - "You canonly write about my life as it is seen on the surface, but the fact is, my life as I lived it, is not reflected on the surface". In other words, he meant that the outer facts of his life did not portray the reality of his life at all. While Aurobindo was a mystic, this is true to a lesser, but still significant extent with just about anybody, especially public figures (prime targets for post-fact astrological analysis).The real personality of Nehru was quite different from the one thatis usually projected. In inside circles, he was reputed to be a womaniser, and power-monger. He was English-educated and did not think much of his roots, he very much endorsed the view that astrology and other Indian sastras had nothing to them. His craving to be the first Prime Minister of Independent India is reputed to even be a major factor in the partition of India. And undoubtedly, his need to win appreciation in international circles caused him to bungle the Kashmir issue badly.Most people of those days who have followed politics will confirm this. Nehru's simplistic popular image as a great patriot and leader is one that has simply been built up assidously by the Congress party, in order to keep the Nehru dynasty going. The media is extremely powerful today, and you can imagine how powerful a government-directed media could be before the days of the Internet and independent TV stations.However, if you read Raman's analysis of Nehru's chart, it very muchmatches the "projected image". Even more interestingly, Raman makes several references to the Navamsa lagna and to Dasa-Bhuktisfor past events. These are different with Raman's ayanamsa, buthe is able to explain perfectly the events! I can post Raman's entireanalysis of Nehru's chart if there is sufficient interest. But to me, it is clear that he is reading Nehru's known life events into the chart, and not vice versa. Raman is a great astrologer, and I attribute no ulterior motive to him, but I only state this as an inbuilt weakness of post-fact analysis. If this is the case with Raman, what of other astrologers? Here is another example:Narasimha wrote:> Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:33 pm> Re: The mysterious UpaGrahas...> (6) Vimsottari dasa can be initiated based on the longitude of> Maandi (instead of Moon). This dasa shows the sufferings. In> the dasa of 10th lord, career can suffer. In the dasa of 5th> lord, reputation or children may suffer. For example, JFK Jr> died in "Maandi Vimsottari" dasa of 8th lord and antardasa of> 3rd lord. Indian politician Jayalalita will soon start Maandi> Vimsottari dasa antardasa of 10th lord and she may have> setbacks in career.Note the date. This was written in October 2000. At this time,Jayalalita was "down and out". It looked as if she had no hope atall of coming back to power. That was the general perception -that she was going to be prosecuted, was going to be disqualifiedfrom contesting elections and so on. Sure enough, Narasimhais able to correlate the physical reality with some astrologicalfactor in her chart - the start of Maandi Vimshottari dasa-antardasa of 10th lord.Now, by the middle of 2001, it became very clear that Jayalalita,for a variety of reasons, WAS actually able to become the ChiefMinister of her state. Narasimha's analyses at this point nowfind astrological factors that will explain this:> Fri Jun 1, 2001 7:08 pm> Re: Tribhagi Variation>As Uttarashadha 2nd quarter is in the 8th house, Sun dasa saw her >losing power. From the second half of Dhanishtha, 8th house ends >and the 9th house starts. So her woes ended in the second half of >Mars dasa corresponding to Dhanishtha (2000-2002)! From Dhanishtha, >karma nakshatra (start of activities) has vedha from exalted Venus >(GL lord!) and abhisheka nakshatra (star of coronation) has vedha >from Sun. This dasa gave her kingdom (chief ministership).And...> Fri Jul 6, 2001 5:45 am> Another Moola Dasa Example> In August 2000, Ketu dasa started. It will last till June 2006 >(time of next elections if her government lasts 5 years!). > In rasi chart (of this life), Ketu is in GL and HL and shows power > and wealth. In D-60 of past life, as pointed out, he shows > meticulous devotion and strong spirituality in own 12th house. The > fruits of this good karma can be enjoyed in this life in Ketu's > Moola dasa. Being in GL in rasi chart, Ketu gave controversial > (Ketu-like!) power in his dasa.> However, Saturn's 12-year dasa will come in 2006 June. Unless very > strong remedial measures are undertaken, the native may suffer much > for the acts of adharma committed in past life.Sure enough... her government is scheduled to be in office for five years. It is already somewhat clear that she will not be elected back. Sure enough - you say she "may suffer" at that time!And all this with an uncertain birth place, time, and possibly even birth date!! (remember, she was an actress).My point is not to cast aspersions on Narasimha's astrologicalability, but to point out that he is clearly being influenced by theflow of events here, and that this is a HUGE problem with post-factastrological analysis. I remain,Mahalinga IyerArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Namaste Mahalinga Iyer, You quoted me below and let me respond. My comments do not contradict each other as you try to portray. If Vimsottari dasa started from Mandi is enough to predict whether one will be a chief minister or not, why do you need normal Vimsottari dasa, Narayana dasa, Sudasa etc etc??? I've always stressed that different dasas offer different vantage points to observe the same kaleidoscope that life is. They are not alternatives to each other, but they supplement each other. Each dasa has its own purpose. Mandi is the son of Saturn and he stands for poison. Gulika shows the poison with which one afflicts others and Mandi shows the poison with which others afflict us. Vimsottari dasa from Moon shows the progress of mind. Vimsottari dasa from Mandi shows the progress of this external poison afflicting one. Vimsottari dasa from Mandi shows the sufferings one has to go through and the obstacles one has to cross. Whether these obstacles are crossed or not is NOT shown by Mandi Vimsottari dasa. It only shows the obstacles. If one understands the true purpose of Mandi Vimsottari dasa, one will take my comments below in the right context/spirit and realize that they do not contradict with the next set of comments you quoted. Jayalalita has won. But look at the obstacles she faced. She was not even allowed to contest the elections (because she had been convicted in a case). When her party swept the elections, it was not clear what the governor would do. Though she was finally appointed as the chief minister, she has to be elected to either the lower or upper house within 6 months. That's not over yet. Recently, she arrested political opponents and she was shocked to find herself at loggerheads with the whole media, people of her state and central government. Some central ministers of members of the ruling coalition had a strong demand for the dismissal of government. Some influential leaders also joined the "dismiss Jayalalita" bandwagon. These nuisances and obstacles are what Mandi Vimsottari dasa shows. When I illustrate one principle in isolation and make comments, don't take them out of context. Of course, the subtle differences between different principles/techniques may not always be clear and, as a result, the "context" may not be clear either. But I do my best to clarify. I was lucky to be accepted into a great tradition by a great guru and I try to share with others the little I learnt from gurus. People who are content on always wearing the "critic" glasses and blasting and dismissing (rather than learning and growing) help nobody (including themselves). They just waste people's time. > Sure enough... her government is scheduled to be in office for five > years. It is already somewhat clear that she will not be elected > back. Sure enough - you say she "may suffer" at that time! This is grossly unfair and can mislead people who don't know the situation in Tamilnadu. At the time I wrote this, it was not at all clear whether her government would survive. She had locked up central ministers and there was a strong demand from influential circles for dismissing her government and imposing the President's rule. Even now, there are a lot of uncertainties. For one thing, she has to be elected to either the lower or the upper house of TN assembly within 6 months from her appointment as CM and it has to happen without any problems. >From a political perspective, it is not at all so clear that she will stay in power for 5 years. More than that, you say "it is already somewhat clear that she will not be elected back" and this is just nonsense. Public memory is short and people's indignation with her recent acts will disappear very soon. She is an excellent showwoman and a lot of things can happen in 5 years. In the light of these facts, your motives are highly questionable when you attempt to portray what I wrote as "something that will happen anyway". You are deliberately misleading the list. A large percentage of members don't know Indian politics and things are not as obvious as you try to portray. Secondly, I am not committing myself to the view that Jayalalita will go after 2006. Based on Moola dasa, I only indicated that there will be trouble based on Moola dasa and D-60 rectification. With correct remedial measures, they can pass. I didn't look at the whole picture and so I did not and will not predict that she will be finished in five years. Though Sudasa of the 8th house from AL runs from 2006, it also aspects GL and HL (like current dasa sign). I have to analyze a lot more factors carefully before I can commit myself to a prediction. May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha > > Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:33 pm > > Re: The mysterious UpaGrahas... > > > Indian politician Jayalalita will soon start Maandi > > Vimsottari dasa antardasa of 10th lord and she may have > > setbacks in career. > > > Fri Jun 1, 2001 7:08 pm > > Re: Tribhagi Variation > > >As Uttarashadha 2nd quarter is in the 8th house, Sun dasa saw her > >losing power. From the second half of Dhanishtha, 8th house ends > >and the 9th house starts. So her woes ended in the second half of > >Mars dasa corresponding to Dhanishtha (2000-2002)! From Dhanishtha, > >karma nakshatra (start of activities) has vedha from exalted Venus > >(GL lord!) and abhisheka nakshatra (star of coronation) has vedha > >from Sun. This dasa gave her kingdom (chief ministership). > > And... > > > Fri Jul 6, 2001 5:45 am > > Another Moola Dasa Example > > > In August 2000, Ketu dasa started. It will last till June 2006 > >(time of next elections if her government lasts 5 years!). > > > In rasi chart (of this life), Ketu is in GL and HL and shows power > > and wealth. In D-60 of past life, as pointed out, he shows > > meticulous devotion and strong spirituality in own 12th house. The > > fruits of this good karma can be enjoyed in this life in Ketu's > > Moola dasa. Being in GL in rasi chart, Ketu gave controversial > > (Ketu-like!) power in his dasa. > > > However, Saturn's 12-year dasa will come in 2006 June. Unless very > > strong remedial measures are undertaken, the native may suffer much > > for the acts of adharma committed in past life. > > Sure enough... her government is scheduled to be in office for five > years. It is already somewhat clear that she will not be elected > back. Sure enough - you say she "may suffer" at that time! > > And all this with an uncertain birth place, time, and possibly even > birth date!! (remember, she was an actress). > > My point is not to cast aspersions on Narasimha's astrological > ability, but to point out that he is clearly being influenced by the > flow of events here, and that this is a HUGE problem with post-fact > astrological analysis. > > I remain, > > Mahalinga Iyer Best regards, Narasimha --------------------- Narasimha P.V.R. Rao Tel: (781) 270-4997 3 Baron Park Lane #13 email: pvr Burlington, MA 01803 email: pvr108 Homepage: http://www.vedicastrologer.org Home address will change in July/Aug, 2001 --------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Dear Narasimha, Namaste. I believe Mahalinga adressed a serious topic, not specifically aimed at you. Namely when astrologers make the events fit the chart, but cannot do the same during blind analysis. Your name came up as you have made many influencial posts, this should only be taken as a sign of respect to your teachings, which you have indeed deserved. I feel that this is something we should keep in mind as astrologers, as this tests our sincerity. Best wishes, Visti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Namaste Narasimha, As Sri Visti Larsen pointed out in a later post, I am not trying to single you out for criticism. As you read, my point also had to do with Raman, who is the greatest Vedic astrologer of the modern age. This is something that I noted in general about post-fact astrological analysis. Raman, in fact, makes this very point in one of his books - ie that after the fact, any event can be suitably explained for a chart. This is like KN Rao not predicting anything untoward for Princess Diana when he gave a "next few years" prediction. I am sure when Sri Rao writes another book after all this is forgotten, he can come up with a post-fact analysis that explains every little detail using astrological factors. Don't you think this is questionable? > You quoted me below and let me respond. My comments do not > contradict each other as you try to portray. Yes, they do. In your Moola Dasa analysis, the implication is that power for her is a formality, because of good past karma. In the Mandi analysis, the implication is that a bad time in career is similarly imminent. Now, the mechanics of the Jayalalita situation, and her own eccentric, unpredictable nature are such that she could either quieten down and stay in power, or could do something very foolish and get thrown out. My point is that analyses such as yours provide astrological factors that cover each possibility. To me, this is mapping her current situation INTO her chart, and not reading her situation FROM her chart. > If Vimsottari dasa started from Mandi is enough to predict whether > one will be a chief minister or not, why do you need normal > Vimsottari dasa, Narayana dasa, Sudasa etc etc??? My point is that, in any chart, different methods can be analysed to show different outcomes. In a post-fact analysis, one has the liberty to choose the astrological factors that fit what happened. In other words, with so many varying techniques, one can explain just about any reality using some selected technique. The techniques themselves mean little, unless one also knows ahead of time, WHICH one to apply where. > I've always stressed that different dasas offer different vantage > points to observe the same kaleidoscope that life is. They are not > alternatives to each other, but they supplement each other. Each > dasa has its own purpose. I agree completely with you. > Mandi is the son of Saturn and he stands for poison. Gulika shows > the poison with which one afflicts others and Mandi shows the > poison with which others afflict us. Vimsottari dasa from Moon > shows the progress of mind. You understate the Vimsottari dasa from Moon, in my opinion. This dasa has been used by hundreds of astrologers, including the venerable Raman, to explain, and predict PHYSICAL events, such as marriage, childbirth, change of residence, gain of honour and so on. Surely these are all not events pertaining to "the mind" alone? > Vimsottari dasa from Mandi shows the progress of this external > poison afflicting one. Is there a relationship between the progress of one's mind and the progress of the external poison affecting one? Or between the external poisons and events in one's life? > If one understands the true purpose of Mandi Vimsottari dasa, one > will take my comments below in the right context/spirit and realize > that they do not contradict with the next set of comments you > quoted. Narasimha, your sincerity is beyond question to me. This is not a crusade by me to show that you cannot predict, or that your predictions are wrong. I am only trying to say that in a post-fact analysis, one has the liberty of choosing any technique that explains the event. This is no guarantee that this technique will help one PREDICT in the next situation, for the next chart. > These nuisances and obstacles are what Mandi Vimsottari dasa shows. Your point is valid. There can be no doubting that she did face obstacles. But your Moola dasa analysis implies that power was there for the taking for her, because of past karma. In my opinion, you could not have said this without the help of hindsight. > When I illustrate one principle in isolation and make comments, > don't take them out of context. Of course, the subtle differences > between different principles/techniques may not always be clear > and, as a result, the "context" may not be clear either. But I do > my best to clarify. I was lucky to be accepted into a great > tradition by a great guru and I try to share with others the > little I learnt from gurus. I am sure everybody on the group respects and admires you for this, including myself. > People who are content on always wearing the "critic" glasses and > blasting and dismissing (rather than learning and growing) help > nobody (including themselves). They just waste people's time. I am disappointed to read this personal attack. So you imply that those who criticise do not learn and grow, but those who accept what is taught do. Does this sound reasonable to you? > This is grossly unfair and can mislead people who don't know the > situation in Tamilnadu. At the time I wrote this, it was not at all > clear whether her government would survive. She had locked up > central ministers and there was a strong demand from influential > circles for dismissing her government and imposing the President's > rule. Even now, there are a lot of uncertainties. For one thing, > she has to be elected to either the lower or the upper house of TN > assembly within 6 months from her appointment as CM and it has to > happen without any problems. Okay, so what do you think will happen? Will her Maandi Vimsottari dasa hold sway to deprive her of power? Or will the past karma shown in her Moola dasa help her hang on? If so, how long do you think she will hang on? Or would we need another different Dasa system to say what will happen? > In the light of these facts, your motives are highly questionable > when you attempt to portray what I wrote as "something that will > happen anyway". You are deliberately misleading the list. A large > percentage of members don't know Indian politics and things are not > as obvious as you try to portray. I agree that most members do not know Indian politics, which is why I did not reply to the post asking about Nehru. My point is that you can see numerous good things and numerous bad things in her chart, using different techniques. Post-fact, you can just highlight the good things and ignore the bad ones to justify any event that happened. ALSO, as I said, we do not even know if the birth data is beyond question!! Not just the time, but also the place, and possibly the date also! > Secondly, I am not committing myself to the view that Jayalalita > will go after 2006. Based on Moola dasa, I only indicated that > there will be trouble based on Moola dasa and D-60 rectification. > With correct remedial measures, they can pass. I didn't look at the > whole picture and so I did not and will not predict that she will > be finished in five years. Though Sudasa of the 8th house from AL > runs from 2006, it also aspects GL and HL (like current dasa sign). > I have to analyze a lot more factors carefully before I can commit > myself to a prediction. My point is precisely that, you cannot commit yourself to any view at this point, because that is PREDICTION, but after the fact, I am sure any astrologer can explain what happened using a technique of his or her choice. You are saying that all you can say is that there will be trouble in 2006. She may or may not retain power based on remedial measures she performs. Politicians and film stars in India are so superstitious that they are performing "remedial measures" all the time. I am sorry, but what you have said is so generic that it cannot be taken very seriously. I remain, Mahalinga Iyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Namaste Jaan, > im puzzled slightly by your views on nehru. where did you obtain > the information relating to nehrus personal ambitions? I am no expert on politics either, but I have read extensively about this period in Indian politics, during one period of time when I had nothing better to do (seriously). And I have no bias for or against the Gandhi family either. Nehru was just an example, I could have picked anybody else just as well. A discussion about Nehru would be beyond the scope of this group, and neither of us would gain anything from it. My point is that if you look deeper at his personality, and read the accounts of people who knew him, you will find that he was very different from his public image. He was by no means an "evil" person. He just was not the person the general public was led to believe he was. Most post-fact analyses seem to reinforce his public image. To me, this only means that the astrologer is reading what he knows about Nehru into (what he thinks is) Nehru's chart. To me, this is counter-intuitive. Astrology should be used to "read" a person's personality, not vice versa. I remain, Mahalinga Iyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Namaste Mahalinga Iyer, > > You quoted me below and let me respond. My comments do not > > contradict each other as you try to portray. > > Yes, they do. In your Moola Dasa analysis, the implication is that > power for her is a formality, because of good past karma. In the > Mandi analysis, the implication is that a bad time in career is > similarly imminent. My Moola dasa analysis does not imply that power is "a formality". If you saw such an "implication", it is your problem. Moola dasa shows the forces at work at the root (moola) of events, i.e. past karma. It is extremely important when deciding the remedial measures. It is only one part of the picture. Without understanding the purpose and context of each dasa, if you see simplistic "implications", it is your problem and you are not taking things in the right spirit. > > If Vimsottari dasa started from Mandi is enough to predict whether > > one will be a chief minister or not, why do you need normal > > Vimsottari dasa, Narayana dasa, Sudasa etc etc??? > > My point is that, in any chart, different methods can be analysed to > show different outcomes. In a post-fact analysis, one has the liberty > to choose the astrological factors that fit what happened. But, if one is choosing the techniques and parameters freely, it becomes a meaningless analysis. If one uses GL for power in one chart, for enemies in another chart and for education in another chart, you can find it wrong. As long as each parameter and technique has a specific purpose, your criticism is pointless. If the specific purpose of each parameter is not clear to you, it is your problem and try to learn (instead of just dismissing things). > > Mandi is the son of Saturn and he stands for poison. Gulika shows > > the poison with which one afflicts others and Mandi shows the > > poison with which others afflict us. Vimsottari dasa from Moon > > shows the progress of mind. > > You understate the Vimsottari dasa from Moon, in my opinion. This > dasa has been used by hundreds of astrologers, including the > venerable Raman, to explain, and predict PHYSICAL events, such as > marriage, childbirth, change of residence, gain of honour and so on. > Surely these are all not events pertaining to "the mind" alone? I taught what my gurus taught me. I only said that Vimsottari dsasa traces the progression of mind and did not say that it does not show "physical" events. Of course, each physical event has an influence on mind. Body and mind are not two different things. You cannot criticize based on your limited and simplistic understanding of what the other person said. > predictions are wrong. I am only trying to say that in a post-fact > analysis, one has the liberty of choosing any technique that explains > the event. This is no guarantee that this technique will help one > PREDICT in the next situation, for the next chart. That is perfectly true. What is the solution? (1) Shun multiple techniques and settle down with just a few. (2) Understand the difference between each technique. I don't know your approach, but mine is (2). > Your point is valid. There can be no doubting that she did face > obstacles. But your Moola dasa analysis implies that power was there > for the taking for her, because of past karma. In my opinion, you > could not have said this without the help of hindsight. Said which one? I was not only commenting on her recent win (yes, THAT is hindsight), but also commenting on a FUTURE event, viz troubles related to the demand for President's rule. I said that her Moola dasa antardasa shows sins in past life taking toll in this life during this period, but said that the remedial measure she had undertaken (donating an elephant at Krishna temple) was just right for it and so I said that the trouble shown by Moola dasa could be overcome. Point 1: This is a limited angle statement and you cannot see any bigger implications in it. I was just illustrating one aspect. Point 2: Even if you do, this is a PREDICTION and NOT a hindsight thing as you try to portray. > > People who are content on always wearing the "critic" glasses and > > blasting and dismissing (rather than learning and growing) help > > nobody (including themselves). They just waste people's time. > > I am disappointed to read this personal attack. So you imply that > those who criticise do not learn and grow, No, those who are content on always criticizing (often with a partial understanding of what others are teaching). > but those who accept > what is taught do. Does this sound reasonable to you? > ALSO, as I said, we do not even know if the birth data is > beyond question!! Not just the time, but also the place, and possibly > the date also! I took the birthdata in Pt. Sanjay Rath's book and slightly rectified it (after a public debate with Sanjay). Though some questioned the birthplace (ok, she studied in Karnataka. So? Does it prove she was born in Karnataka?), nobody has shown me a clear reference showing it is wrong. > My point is precisely that, you cannot commit yourself to any view at > this point, because that is PREDICTION I cannot commit myself because I did not look at all angles and have no time for it now. Good and confident predictions take a lot of dedicated time. Illustrating just one angle is much easier. THIS may indeed be your point, but it did not come across that way. Moreover, my main problem was that you were insincere in reporting facts. You misrepresented the situation in Tamilnadu (that it is obvious that Jayalalita will remain in power for 5 years and will not come back) just to downplay the predictive nature of a statement you were attacking. I do not appreciate such insincerity. May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Namaste Narasimha, > My Moola dasa analysis does not imply that power is "a formality". > If you saw such an "implication", it is your problem. Here we go. I quote you again. > Fri Jul 6, 2001 5:45 am > Another Moola Dasa Example > In August 2000, Ketu dasa started. It will last till June 2006 >(time of next elections if her government lasts 5 years!). > In rasi chart (of this life), Ketu is in GL and HL and shows power > and wealth. In D-60 of past life, as pointed out, he shows > meticulous devotion and strong spirituality in own 12th house. The > fruits of this good karma can be enjoyed in this life in Ketu's > Moola dasa. > Being in GL in rasi chart, Ketu gave controversial Ketu-like!) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > power in his dasa. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If I am not mistaken, you are not merely illustrating one angle here, you seem to be quite categorically saying that: 1. Ketu is in GL and HL and shows power and wealth 2. The native had good karma in his last birth 2. Ketu represents the fruits of this good karma in his Moola dasa 3. You even state that Ketu "gave power in his dasa"!! Look at this another way, you state why Ketu should give power in His Moola dasa, state that He DID give power, and state till when Ketu dasa goes - 2006 and EVEN SAY that that is the time of the next election if her government lasts! I am not reading too much between the lines, or into your words here. Now, if you are saying that you did not MEAN to say that Ketu giving power was such a straightforward thing, then that is a different thing altogether. But the fact of your doing so is pretty clear to me. > Without understanding the purpose and context of each dasa, if you > see simplistic "implications", it is your problem and you are not > taking things in the right spirit. Narasimha, ultimately the point of Jyotish is predicting the future. I used the word "imply" because you constantly use words like "may give" and "could give", like all astrologers do. In other words, you do not directly SAY something, but imply it very clearly. My usage of the word "imply" does not mean that I am reading things into your statements. > But, if one is choosing the techniques and parameters freely, it > becomes a meaningless analysis. If one uses GL for power in one > chart, for enemies in another chart and for education in another > chart, you can find it wrong. As long as each parameter and > technique has a specific purpose, your criticism is pointless. If > the specific purpose of each parameter is not clear to you, it is > your problem and try to learn (instead of just dismissing things). If we say Moola dasa says Jayalalita "could" experience a good period for the next year, and if Vimsottari says her "progress of mind" may not be good and if Narayana dasa says something else and if Kalachakra dasa says something else and if each of Parashara Muni's other 50-odd dasa systems say other things, does the entire analysis mean anything as a whole? My understanding is that astrology IS the study of how our karma is going to manifest in this life. Our chart is a map of the karmas we bring into this life, the dasa systems show when the fruits of these are likely to manifest. The dasa systems are just a timing device. Without knowing what the OVERRIDING influences are, what is the purpose of knowing to calculate different dasa systems? Once you know which the starting dasa is, and how long each one lasts after that, you are done. > I taught what my gurus taught me. I only said that Vimsottari dsasa > traces the progression of mind and did not say that it does not > show "physical" events. Of course, each physical event has an > influence on mind. Body and mind are not two different things. You > cannot criticize based on your limited and simplistic understanding > of what the other person said. What is the meaning of the phrase "Vimsottari dasa traces the progression of mind" if "body and mind are not two different things"? What precisely is meant by saying it traces the progression of mind? I will let you explain, so you will not say I read something simplistic into your words. > That is perfectly true. What is the solution? > > (1) Shun multiple techniques and settle down with just a few. > (2) Understand the difference between each technique. > > I don't know your approach, but mine is (2). Finally we agree! I would prefer to learn how to isolate the overriding factors so that I do not give equal importance to every little thing. In my opinion, there are too many things in Jyotish that way. Please don't ask me HOW I will do it... if I knew that, I would already be an accomplished astrologer! To sum up, we got a little side-tracked into the specifics of the Jayalalita issue. My point is that once one KNOWS what events took place, mapping it into a chart is not difficult. Certainly not with multiple variables like lagnas, arudhas, divisional charts and multiple dasa systems. Without knowing to pick out the overriding influences, more "information" is not necessarily good. In fact, one could argue that it may be counter-productive. I will not reply to your charges of "insincerity" because that will lead us into personal attacks (and defenses) and that will be thoroughly pointless; it is best if we stick to our points and leave personalities well alone. I remain, Mahalinga Iyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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