Narasimha - further D-1, D-10 and D-24 issues

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narasimha and other learned list members,

 

Further to my question about D-24 indicating education etc here

is a hypothetical situation that illustrates my thoughts. I have

taken a chart for this morning, in Mumbai. Please look at the

D-1, D-10 and D-24 and read on below.

 

 

Date of Birth: June 20, 2001

Time of Birth: 3:45:05 am

Time Zone of Birth: 5:30 East of GMT

Longitude of Birth: 72 E 50

Latitude of Birth: 18 N 58

 

Planet Position Pada CharaK

 

Ascdt 1 Ta 14 Krittika 2 -

Sun 4 Ge 48 Mrigasira 4 GK

Moon 13 Ta 58 Rohini 2 PiK

Mars ® 26 Sc 49 Jyeshtha 4 AmK

Mercury ® 29 Ta 45 Mrigasira 2 AK

Jupiter 0 Ge 53 Mrigasira 3 DK

Venus 19 Ar 28 Bharani 2 BK

Saturn 13 Ta 43 Rohini 2 PK

Rahu 12 Ge 49 Aardra 2 MK

Ketu 12 Sg 49 Moola 4 -

 

 

 

+----------------------+

| | | Asc | Jup |

| | | | |

| | Ven | Sat | Sun |

| | | | |

| | | Moo MerR | Rah |

|-------------|---------------------------|-------------|

| | | |

| | | |

| | | |

| | | |

| | | |

|-------------| R A S I |-------------|

| | | |

| | | |

| | | |

| | | |

| | | |

|-------------|---------------------------|-------------|

| | | | |

| Glk Ket | | | |

| | MarR | | |

| Mnd | | | |

| | | | |

+----------------------+

 

+----------------------+

| | | | |

| | Ket | Sat | Jup |

| MarR | | | |

| | Mnd | Moo | |

| | | | |

|-------------|---------------------------|-------------|

| | | |

| | | |

| | | Sun |

| | | |

| | | |

|-------------| D - 1 0 |-------------|

| | | |

| | | |

| Asc | | |

| | | |

| Glk | | |

|-------------|---------------------------|-------------|

| | | Ven | |

| | | | |

| | | MerR | |

| | | | |

| | | Rah | |

+----------------------+

 

+----------------------+

| | | | |

| | | Sat | Moo MerR |

| | MarR | | |

| | | | Rah Ket |

| | | | |

|-------------|---------------------------|-------------|

| | | |

| | | |

| | | Asc |

| | | |

| | | Mnd |

|-------------| D - 2 4 |-------------|

| | | |

| | | |

| | | Jup |

| | | |

| | | |

|-------------|---------------------------|-------------|

| | | | |

| | Ven | | |

| Glk | | | |

| | Sun | | |

| | | | |

+----------------------+

 

 

Note the D-1 lagna in Taurus, D-10 lagna in Capricorn and D-24 lagna

in Cancer.

 

This is the chart between 3:45:05 AM to 3:49:41 AM.

 

The same combination of D-1, D-10 and D-24 repeats again between

4:42:49 AM to 4:47:46.

 

Obviously, the arudha lagnas are also identical for both time windows.

 

Now, I have taken the place to be Mumbai, which as you know, is a

city with millions of people. We have two five minute windows for

which the Rasi chart and the D-24 chart remain essentially the same.

 

 

My questions are:

 

1. Is it possible that more than a few people will be born in these

two time windows of 5 minutes each?

 

2. Is it possible that some of them will be born in very poor

families? And possibly one of them in a very rich family? ie in

very different circumstances?

 

3. Since the D-1 and D-24 charts are essentially the same, is it

reasonable to assume that they will have the "same education" ?

I mean, that they will study similar subjects and so on?

 

4. Since the D-1, D-10 and D-24 charts are essentially the same,

is it reasonable to assume that the children born in these two

windows of 5 minutes each will have similar careers? Consider

that they may be of different gender, different religion,

different caste and from different economic groups. You know

all these make a difference in India in most choices we make.

 

5. Further, if D-3 is supposed to denote the number of siblings,

D-3 lagna changes only every 40 minutes or so. So all these

people will have the same D-1 and D-3 charts. Is it possible

that they will all have the same number of siblings, of the

same gender?!

 

Please do not label my questions as "mechanistic" or "left brain".

I am no "scientist" or "rationalist", I would not even be studying

astrology if I were. This is as much an attempt for me to understand

as it is for me to question.

 

I have no clue at all about "Krishnamurthy Paddhati". I am trying

to apply what I have been reading based on the divisional charts.

What is the point trying to apply a new method like "KP" before

attempting to use the divisional charts correctly? (my view).

 

I am not trying to offend anybody here. Please do not get offended

by my questions, nor are they meant to be taken personally. If I

am being naive, foolish, arrogant, vain at any point, if that is

pointed out to me, I will be happy to correct myself.

 

 

I remain,

 

Mahalinga Iyer

[Guest guest]

Namaste Mahalinga Iyer,

 

Brilliant questions! Let me quickly try to comment.

 

WARNING: My suggestion to beginners and those who get depressed

easily is to skip this post.

 

> My questions are:

>

> 1. Is it possible that more than a few people will be born in these

> two time windows of 5 minutes each?

 

Of course, YES!!

 

> 2. Is it possible that some of them will be born in very poor

> families? And possibly one of them in a very rich family? ie in

> very different circumstances?

 

Yes again.

 

> 3. Since the D-1 and D-24 charts are essentially the same, is it

> reasonable to assume that they will have the "same education" ?

> I mean, that they will study similar subjects and so on?

 

Their learning and activities are likely to be similar. However,

material manifestations of these can be different based on desa-kaala-

paatra. Let us take two people with the D-10 you gave. Because of

Venus and Mercury in 10th giving dharma-karmadhipati yoga, these two

people are likely to engage in good activities and be cheerful,

thoughtful and creative in their activities. Irrespective of their

actual material careers, this may be the common feature of their

careers. Due to Sun in A10, some power or politics may be involved in

the *actual* career (as seen in the material plane).

 

However, depending on one's paatra (class), this can mean being Prime

Minister or the leader of taxi drivers in a part of the town.

 

Another note: Apart from lagna, note that there are several special

lagnas described by Parasara. For example, varnada lagna shows the

kind of people one deals with. Ghati lagna shows the kind of

influence one enjoys. All these things have an influence. So, people

born within 5 min can have wide ranging careers.

 

Having these many parameters may be confusing and some may think that

Parasara described them just for the fancy of it and that they have

no role. However, my view is that every parameter has a specific role

and integrating everything is a daunting task. Bad news is that a lot

of this knowledge is lost and there are too many factors to consider.

Good news is that a lot of bits and pieces are still preserved in

traditional families in the remote corners of India.

 

Astrology as practiced today is much inferior to how it was practiced

in India in ancient times. For example, leave special lagnas etc.

Deva Keralam gives the results based on Nadyamsa (D-150) and

sometimes ardhanadyamsa (D-300). Elders teach that ardhanadyamsa is

the genetic map of a person. How many of us really understand these

charts? I, for one, don't.

 

The way we use it, astrology is not deterministic. It is a

probabilistic science. But, when all the parameters are thoroughly

understood and the birthtime is accucrate, I will not be surprised if

Vedic astrology is pretty deterministic.

 

> 4. Since the D-1, D-10 and D-24 charts are essentially the same,

> is it reasonable to assume that the children born in these two

> windows of 5 minutes each will have similar careers? Consider

> that they may be of different gender, different religion,

> different caste and from different economic groups. You know

> all these make a difference in India in most choices we make.

>

> 5. Further, if D-3 is supposed to denote the number of siblings,

> D-3 lagna changes only every 40 minutes or so. So all these

> people will have the same D-1 and D-3 charts. Is it possible

> that they will all have the same number of siblings, of the

> same gender?!

>

> Please do not label my questions as "mechanistic" or "left brain".

> I am no "scientist" or "rationalist", I would not even be studying

> astrology if I were. This is as much an attempt for me to understand

> as it is for me to question.

 

A lot of lost knowledge has to be recovered. Questions such as the

ones above are the first step...

 

Ask these questions and try to make progress. But, even those who

don't have the energy for pursuing scientific astrology with such

precision can benefit from Jyotish if they treat it as a

probabilistic subject.

 

Anyway, I really have to go to sleep now...

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

AUM SRI GURUVE NAMAH

Dear Narasimha!

 

The result of a horoscope being modified by desha-kaala-patra is a misnomer

if a horoscope is judged very minutely and precisely (upto the last

divisional chart and the considering all the factors in the horoscope). If

that is not the case, interpreting a horoscope would have been impossible if

the background of the native is not known. But this is not true, astrologers

can interpret an horoscope without any prior knowledge of the the owner of

the horoscope, or otherwise there is no objectivity. An expert astrologer

will be able to judge the past of the native from the horoscope only, why he

would need the information of the native from outside. Even sex of an

individual can be determined.

 

Then how to interpret the meaning of Desha-Kaala-Patra. If some one is

seeing a horoscope at a broader level such as only the rasi and navamsa

chart only, then the result will be modified by D-K-P. Lets say, two

horoscopes, both having same lagna and Dharma-karmadhipatya yoga in the

10th, the decision of whether one will become a king or a village head will

depend upon the place, time and the past of the native.

 

But can't we know from the horoscope itself, whether a person has taken

birth in kings family or in a poor family, whether he has taken birth in a

urban place or a rural place, whether he is male or female???? When

everything can be known from the horoscope itself, why the result be

modified by D-K-P.

 

The issue here is consider the past of the native and the present situation

to predict it future. This is another matter whether you take information

from outside or the horoscope itself.

 

Regards

Sarajit

 

 

 

-

<pvr

<vedic astrology>

Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:07 AM

[vedic astrology] Re: Narasimha - further D-1, D-10 and D-24 issues

 

 

> Namaste Mahalinga Iyer,

>

> Brilliant questions! Let me quickly try to comment.

>

> WARNING: My suggestion to beginners and those who get depressed

> easily is to skip this post.

>

> > My questions are:

> >

> > 1. Is it possible that more than a few people will be born in these

> > two time windows of 5 minutes each?

>

> Of course, YES!!

>

> > 2. Is it possible that some of them will be born in very poor

> > families? And possibly one of them in a very rich family? ie in

> > very different circumstances?

>

> Yes again.

>

> > 3. Since the D-1 and D-24 charts are essentially the same, is it

> > reasonable to assume that they will have the "same education" ?

> > I mean, that they will study similar subjects and so on?

>

> Their learning and activities are likely to be similar. However,

> material manifestations of these can be different based on desa-kaala-

> paatra. Let us take two people with the D-10 you gave. Because of

> Venus and Mercury in 10th giving dharma-karmadhipati yoga, these two

> people are likely to engage in good activities and be cheerful,

> thoughtful and creative in their activities. Irrespective of their

> actual material careers, this may be the common feature of their

> careers. Due to Sun in A10, some power or politics may be involved in

> the *actual* career (as seen in the material plane).

>

> However, depending on one's paatra (class), this can mean being Prime

> Minister or the leader of taxi drivers in a part of the town.

>

> Another note: Apart from lagna, note that there are several special

> lagnas described by Parasara. For example, varnada lagna shows the

> kind of people one deals with. Ghati lagna shows the kind of

> influence one enjoys. All these things have an influence. So, people

> born within 5 min can have wide ranging careers.

>

> Having these many parameters may be confusing and some may think that

> Parasara described them just for the fancy of it and that they have

> no role. However, my view is that every parameter has a specific role

> and integrating everything is a daunting task. Bad news is that a lot

> of this knowledge is lost and there are too many factors to consider.

> Good news is that a lot of bits and pieces are still preserved in

> traditional families in the remote corners of India.

>

> Astrology as practiced today is much inferior to how it was practiced

> in India in ancient times. For example, leave special lagnas etc.

> Deva Keralam gives the results based on Nadyamsa (D-150) and

> sometimes ardhanadyamsa (D-300). Elders teach that ardhanadyamsa is

> the genetic map of a person. How many of us really understand these

> charts? I, for one, don't.

>

> The way we use it, astrology is not deterministic. It is a

> probabilistic science. But, when all the parameters are thoroughly

> understood and the birthtime is accucrate, I will not be surprised if

> Vedic astrology is pretty deterministic.

>

> > 4. Since the D-1, D-10 and D-24 charts are essentially the same,

> > is it reasonable to assume that the children born in these two

> > windows of 5 minutes each will have similar careers? Consider

> > that they may be of different gender, different religion,

> > different caste and from different economic groups. You know

> > all these make a difference in India in most choices we make.

> >

> > 5. Further, if D-3 is supposed to denote the number of siblings,

> > D-3 lagna changes only every 40 minutes or so. So all these

> > people will have the same D-1 and D-3 charts. Is it possible

> > that they will all have the same number of siblings, of the

> > same gender?!

> >

> > Please do not label my questions as "mechanistic" or "left brain".

> > I am no "scientist" or "rationalist", I would not even be studying

> > astrology if I were. This is as much an attempt for me to understand

> > as it is for me to question.

>

> A lot of lost knowledge has to be recovered. Questions such as the

> ones above are the first step...

>

> Ask these questions and try to make progress. But, even those who

> don't have the energy for pursuing scientific astrology with such

> precision can benefit from Jyotish if they treat it as a

> probabilistic subject.

>

> Anyway, I really have to go to sleep now...

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narasimha,

 

> Brilliant questions! Let me quickly try to comment.

 

Your answers are no less brilliant. Most astrologers would choose

to shy away from the topic - calling me names would be simpler!

 

 

> > 3. Since the D-1 and D-24 charts are essentially the same, is it

> > reasonable to assume that they will have the "same education" ?

> > I mean, that they will study similar subjects and so on?

 

 

> Irrespective of their actual material careers, this may be the

> common feature of their careers. Due to Sun in A10, some power or

> politics may be involved in the *actual* career (as seen in the

> material plane).

 

So we agree that one cannot say things like "you have the influence

of Venus and Mercury on your tenth, so you may have been an

accountant in the fashion industry" ?? In other words, no

deterministic predictions about career can be given.

 

> However, depending on one's paatra (class), this can mean being

> Prime Minister or the leader of taxi drivers in a part of the town.

 

Given (say) seventeen charts with the same D-1, D-10 and D-24, you

are saying that depending on one's paatra, the person may go on to

become either a Prime Minister or a petty leader, or something in

between.

 

First off, people who go on to become Prime Ministers do not always

start off being privileged. Likewise, people who go on to become

petty leaders do not always start off being "under privileged". In

other words, the paatra may not be that obvious either at the time

of birth, or indeed at any point in the person's childhood or youth.

 

Secondly, by saying that how high the person goes depends on the

paatra (class) and not on the strength of the rajayogas in the

chart (how could that be - with identical charts!), we are making

a *damaging* statement about Vedic astrology.

 

In other words, if I am given a chart, one cannot tell if it is

that of a sportsman of international calibre, or of someone who is

merely fond of sports, unless I know about the background of the

person.

 

Meaning - the paatra is essentially the deciding factor. True?

 

> Another note: Apart from lagna, note that there are several special

> lagnas described by Parasara. For example, varnada lagna shows the

> kind of people one deals with. Ghati lagna shows the kind of

> influence one enjoys. All these things have an influence. So,

people

> born within 5 min can have wide ranging careers.

 

True. But how often does the varnada lagna, or the ghati lagna

change? We are talking of a set of charts with the same D-1, D-10 and

D-24, remember.

 

> Good news is that a lot of bits and pieces are still preserved in

> traditional families in the remote corners of India.

 

I understand some of Parashara's original teachings may be lost,

and the fact that something is preserved is our good fortune,

however, do you believe that with more techniques, we will be able

to get to more detail?

 

Is it possible that astrology can only indicate the *broad outlines*

of our lives? That the finer details are essentially driven by "free

will" ??

 

 

I remain,

 

Mahalinga Iyer.

[Guest guest]

AUM SRI GURUVE NAMAH

Dear Mahalinga!

 

I would like to comment on some the things... They are as under.....

 

> Namaste Narasimha,

>

> > Brilliant questions! Let me quickly try to comment.

>

> Your answers are no less brilliant. Most astrologers would choose

> to shy away from the topic - calling me names would be simpler!

>

>

> > > 3. Since the D-1 and D-24 charts are essentially the same, is it

> > > reasonable to assume that they will have the "same education" ?

> > > I mean, that they will study similar subjects and so on?

>

>

> > Irrespective of their actual material careers, this may be the

> > common feature of their careers. Due to Sun in A10, some power or

> > politics may be involved in the *actual* career (as seen in the

> > material plane).

>

> So we agree that one cannot say things like "you have the influence

> of Venus and Mercury on your tenth, so you may have been an

> accountant in the fashion industry" ?? In other words, no

> deterministic predictions about career can be given.

 

Sarajit: On the basis of this deterministic prediction can't be given about

the career. However, did we take *all* the factors into consideration before

giving the prediction.

 

>

> > However, depending on one's paatra (class), this can mean being

> > Prime Minister or the leader of taxi drivers in a part of the town.

>

> Given (say) seventeen charts with the same D-1, D-10 and D-24, you

> are saying that depending on one's paatra, the person may go on to

> become either a Prime Minister or a petty leader, or something in

> between.

>

> First off, people who go on to become Prime Ministers do not always

> start off being privileged. Likewise, people who go on to become

> petty leaders do not always start off being "under privileged". In

> other words, the paatra may not be that obvious either at the time

> of birth, or indeed at any point in the person's childhood or youth.

>

> Secondly, by saying that how high the person goes depends on the

> paatra (class) and not on the strength of the rajayogas in the

> chart (how could that be - with identical charts!), we are making

> a *damaging* statement about Vedic astrology.

 

 

Sarajit: What if the class itself of the paatra is known from the horoscope.

As we know the past lives of the native can be known, why not the status of

the family and surroundings in which the person has taken birth. The

strength of rajayogas does show whether one would become the prime-minister

provided the astrologer has taken into consideration, *all the influencing

factors*. The class of the patra can also be known from the horoscope.

 

 

> In other words, if I am given a chart, one cannot tell if it is

> that of a sportsman of international calibre, or of someone who is

> merely fond of sports, unless I know about the background of the

> person.

>

 

Sarajit: One can tell this.

 

> Meaning - the paatra is essentially the deciding factor. True?

 

Sarajit: It does. However, the past status of the patra is also reveiled

from the horoscope.

 

> > Another note: Apart from lagna, note that there are several special

> > lagnas described by Parasara. For example, varnada lagna shows the

> > kind of people one deals with. Ghati lagna shows the kind of

> > influence one enjoys. All these things have an influence. So,

> people

> > born within 5 min can have wide ranging careers.

>

> True. But how often does the varnada lagna, or the ghati lagna

> change? We are talking of a set of charts with the same D-1, D-10 and

> D-24, remember.

>

> > Good news is that a lot of bits and pieces are still preserved in

> > traditional families in the remote corners of India.

>

> I understand some of Parashara's original teachings may be lost,

> and the fact that something is preserved is our good fortune,

> however, do you believe that with more techniques, we will be able

> to get to more detail?

 

Sarajit Yes! more detail can be gathered if more techniques are known. As I

mentioned (in other maiil) even sex can be determined from one's horoscope.

But, how to do that is still an grey area.

 

>

> Is it possible that astrology can only indicate the *broad outlines*

> of our lives? That the finer details are essentially driven by "free

> will" ??

>

 

Sarajit: With attainment of more and more precision, astrology becomes more

and more deterministic.

 

regards

Sarajit