Satyam and Sivam

June 11, 2001

Aloha Moses,

My time is better spent on those list members who have sincere

questions. Considering the unreasonable nature of your criticism, I

will ignore you from now on. Before I do that, I will try to briefly

address your points for one last time. This will be my last reply to

you on my article on twins.

I am a student of Jyotish, which is an ocean of knowledge. One may

indeed find some contradictions in my writings, partly because of my

incomplete knowledge and partly because of the time constraint I

face when writing. However, YOU have chosen a very wrong example. I

will answer your points shortly.

You could've just asked me "why did you consider so and so point and

why did you leave so and so point" instead of terming these

as "contradictions" and using words like "dishonest" and "deceptive"

about me.

> But any cautious observer

> will notice that you only argue the half of the story that supports

your

> claim and completely ignore all of the points that would not

support your

> claim. I came away from this article feeling like you were very

deceptive and

> biased in presenting this information.

One certainly cannot expect me to state each and every point in that

very brief article. The article you read was meant to show the fine

parameters/degrees of freedom present in Vedic astrology as opposed

to some other systems. You came up with YOUR OWN set of rigid rules

and tried to find "contradictions" in my article - basically you

pointed out the points that I did not make. In a brief article, I

have the right of making only the salient points. You are painting

secondary/tertiary points as primary ones (using your own judgment)

and calling me "deceptive" and "dishonest".

> Let's establish the ground rules of what will be considered, using

your own

> statements as the standards:

>

> 1) Planets in trines or kendras are considered good, while planets

in

> dusthana's are not (6/8/12). You make this point at the top of the

D-6

> discussion

<<<Other "rules" snipped>>>

> So then these are the ground rules.

It was a very brief article and *I* did not "establish" any rules,

let alone give the preference order for resolving clashes. Any set of

rules and order of applying them that you come up with are

essentially your own.

> In your discussion, however, you only

> made the points that supported your claims, and left out at least

16 points

> that i have listed below, when it did not suit your argument. Now

to the

> specific contradictions:

>

> D-6

>

> Contradiction 1: You mentioned that Sivam's Lagna lord is conjunct

a

> debilitated planet, but you did not mention that Satyam's is also.

That's not called a "contradiction". Let us see exactly what I wrote:

I wrote: "In Satyam's D-6, lagna lord Saturn is in a trine. Lagna is

occupied by exalted Mars and aspected by Sun (significator of

vitality). These factors blessed him with solid health. In Sivam's D-

6, lagna lord occupies 8th - that's the first sign of weakness. He

joins a debilitated planet (Venus) - that's the second."

In Satyam's D-6, I pointed out the key plus points. I did not bother

to comment on weaknesses that are likely to be dominated by these two

strong points. Why is that a "contradiction"?

> D-27

>

> Contradiction 5: Sivam's D-27 Lagna lord is in the 5th house, which

according

> to your established standards is good. You go on to say that this

Moon is

> debilitated, implying that this is the big problem, but this seems

dishonest

> because ...

My "established standards"??? YOU are trying to establish/force your

own standards! If I point out lagna lord's trinal placement in one

chart, it does not mean it is a great placement irrespective of other

factors. Nor does it become my established standard.

Look, the point here is that lagna lord's strength is vital in a

chart. You have lagna lord Moon debilitated in Sivam's D-27. He's in

a trine, but he's debilitated and weak.

The other twin's D-27 has Gemini lagna with lord Mercury in it.

There is no comparison between the two.

I re-iterate - making salient points and skipping secondary points

does not amount to a "contradiction". Terming those

as "contradictions" and labelling me "dishonest" only points at one's

poor judgment and/or hastiness...

> Contradiction 6: Not only is Sivam's Moon a natural and temporal

benefic, as

> lord of the 1st, but Sivam's Moon receives a full aspect from

Jupiter, and

> this forms a raja yoga as Jupiter is the lord of the Sivam's 7th

and 10th.

> This is the only full aspect his 5th house and Moon receives. But

this

> aspect, and the raja yoga, are not mentioned.

Debilitated Moon can only draw a little strength from functional

neutral Jupiter's aspect. In fact, FOUR unobstructed papa argalas

(malefic interventions) spoil his indications beyond repair (read my

book "Vedic Astrology: An Integrated Approach" if you don't know what

argalas are and mean). Being debilitated, he cannot easily fight back

and save his significations (lagna).

Again, you're expecting me to mention every point that you can think

of. I considered all those secondary and left them, especially

because I wanted to keep the article very brief.

> The final analysis of who has the stronger D-27 still favors

Satyam, but this

> is certainly not as clear-cut as you present it to be, and your

subjective

> bias still seems very evident to me here. This subjective bias soon

becomes

What seems evident to me is a desire to flame at any cost.

> full blown in the case of the D-24's.

>

> D-24

>

> Contradiction 9: You say that Satyam's "lagna lord occupies a trine

and it

> makes him fortunate." You do not mention that the exact same is

true of

> Sivam's chart, or the fact that on top of this, Sivam's lagna lord

is better

> aspected than Satyam's.

Yes, both have lagna lords in 9th. In one case, lagna lord Venus is

in 9th in a friend's house in an intellectual sign. He is quite

strong. In the other case, lagna lord is debilitated in 9th. Just as

in D-27, lagna lord in Sivam's D-24 is well-placed, but weak. If I

stress on the weakness, why is it a sin? When one is weak, how does

it matter whether he is well-placed or ill-placed?? If one is strong,

then it matters whether he is well-placed or not.

> Contradiction 13: While you mention Saturn's aspect to Satyam's 5th

house

> being to its own sign, you do not mention the aspect from malefic

Mars to the

> same 5th house.

Mars is not a malefic in this chart. He is a *weak* functional

neutral (2nd & 7th lord). His aspect has little role. Saturn, OTOH,

is a reasonably strong yogakaraka (and the lord of the house being

considered!).

I repeat for one last time - is this a "contradiction"? Poor choice

of words...

You could've just asked me "why did you consider so and so point and

why did you leave so and so point" instead of terming these

as "contradictions" and using words like "dishonest" and "deceptive"

about me.

With this, I conclude my correspondence with you. God bless you.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

PS: I understood why I did not get your mail. The article lists my

old work address (nrao) and you must've sent a mail there.

It must've bounced.

June 11, 2001

Dear Narasimha,

>> My time is better spent on those list members who

have sincere questions. Considering the unreasonable

nature of your criticism, I will ignore you from now

on. Before I do that<<

Well said.It is time you ignored the thread or better

still if admin. puts an end to it.

--\

------------------------------

You promised to give an example on the application of

multiple dasa systems: how, when and where to apply. I

am eager to read it and been waiting for it!

You are one of the most learned & experienced Vedic

astrologers on this list. From time to time, you pass

on your wisdom, like the example mentioned above,

culled out of your (over two decades, I guess)

experience(and your research) to us, the beginners and

the learned alike.

I consider it as a boon to receive something like this

on a platter!

Please keep it up.

Regards

viswanadham

Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

June 12, 2001

Dear Moses,

I am shocked. I do not care if Narasimha's article had left some points

or not. But he is a human.

It often happens that even some of salient features escape our notice.

Otherwise, we can predict

correctly every time. Some time, after the event happens, we come back

and wonder how we missed

it in the first glance. DID NOT THIS HAPPEN TO YOU SO FAR??? Be sincere

in answereing this

question to yourself. So, calling some one as dishonesh and decisive

due to either wrong points or

missed points is extremely unwarented (UNLESS YOU THINK, AN ASTROLOGER

NEVER MISSES

A POINT WHILE READING A HOROSCOPE).

This is a hermitage like group. Let us not use such insulting words.

You can dis-agree with or put down one readings

or observations. But, do not put down the personality. What is the

proof you have that Narasimha wantedly did quote

worng points? How are you sure that he was dishonest?? Please refrain

in using such strong words.

Narasimhas articles may have some wrong comments/calculations. But to

err is human. Do not tag them as dishonesty.

Best regards,

Vijay.

MosesSiregarIII (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

Narasimha,

on your website, www.vedicastrologer.org, you try to argue that

the D-6, D-24, and D-24

divisional charts of two twins born two minutes apart

clearly shows why Satyam

has solid health, an easy-going temperment, and was

a brilliant student while

Sivam has poor health, a gloomy temperment, and was

a mediocre student (except

in math).

Birth data:

Nov 4, 1970

76E53

30N44

5:30 zones ahead (east)

of GMT

Satyam: 4:06 pm

Sivam: 4:08 pm

In discussing the D-6, D-24,

and D-27's you make it look crystal clear, plain

as day, that the two charts

show these differences. But any cautious observer

will notice that you only

argue the half of the story that supports your

claim and completely ignore

all of the points that would not support your

claim. I came away from

this article feeling like you were very deceptive and

biased in presenting this

information.

Let's establish the ground

rules of what will be considered, using your own

statements as the standards:

1) Planets in trines or kendras

are considered good, while planets in

dusthana's are not (6/8/12).

You make this point at the top of the D-6

discussion

2) Exalted planets are considered

strong, and debilitated planets are

considered weak. You make

this point when you discuss Mars in Capricorn,

under D-6, and debilitations

of Sivam under D-27 and D-24.

3) Planets in the Lagna (1st

house) are considered when it comes to

determining the strength

of the Lagna. You make this point when discussing

Satyam's D-6

4) Conjunction with a debilitated

planet is considered a weakness, or the

presence of a debilitated

planet in a house is considered a weakness. You

make this point when discussing

Sivam's D-6, D-27, and D-24.

5) The houses a planet owns

influences it effect upon matters. You make this

point when you discuss the

6 and 8 rulers, in Sivam's D-6, as bad influences.

>From this, we can also assume

that planets ruling good houses are positive.

6) Aspects from malefics

are considered bad. When you consider Sivam's aspect

from Saturn to Mars you

establish this point.

7) By virtue of the last

point, we can assume that aspects from natural

benefics are good. Perhaps

you did not mention this yourself, because this

would have favored Sivam

more than Satyam.

8) Aspects from a planet

to its own sign are considered positive. You

establish this when you

discuss the aspect from Saturn to Mercury in Aquarius

in Satyam's D-24. From this,

we can also assume that a planet in aspect to

its exaltation sign would

be positive.

9) You consider an aspect

to the Lagna as significant. You establish this

when you discuss the aspect

from Satyam's D-6 Sun to Lagna, and say that this

is a positive aspect since

the Sun is an indicator of longevity.

10) Dispositors are considered.

You establish this when you discuss the

dispositor of Satyams' D-24

lagna. So Lagna dispositors are certainly

considered, and from this

general principle the 5th house dispositors must

also mean something.

So then these are the ground

rules. In your discussion, however, you only

made the points that supported

your claims, and left out at least 16 points

that i have listed below,

when it did not suit your argument. Now to the

specific contradictions:

D-6

Contradiction 1: You mentioned

that Sivam's Lagna lord is conjunct a

debilitated planet, but

you did not mention that Satyam's is also.

Contradiction 2: Although

Sivam's Lagna lord is in the 8th house, and

conjunct a debilitated planet,

Venus (just as Satyam's Lagna lord is conjunct

a debilitated planet), you

do not mention that Sivam's Lagna lord in the 8th

is conjunct a natural benefic,

which is also a raja yoga karaka for Capricorn

Lagna (which, granted, would

also be the case for Satyam's Aquarius lagna).

Contradiction 3: You mention

the aspect from Satyam's Sun to his Lagna, and

say that this is positive

since the Sun is the indicator of longevity. Yet

you do not mention that

the Sun is the 8th lord.

Contradiction 4: You mention

that Sivam's kidney problems would be shown by

the presence of the 6 and

8 lords in the 7th, and the 7th lord in the 6th.

But you do not mention that

Satyam's 8 lord is in his 7th, or that his 7th

lord is in the 8th, or that

his 7th house receives the full aspect of malefic

Mars, and that this aspect

is from Mars to its sign of debiliation, Cancer.

Still, Satyam's D-6 Lagna

is stronger than Sivam's, as you have argued,

although you're beginning

to establish that you only argue points that go in

your favor.

D-27

Contradiction 5: Sivam's

D-27 Lagna lord is in the 5th house, which according

to your established standards

is good. You go on to say that this Moon is

debilitated, implying that

this is the big problem, but this seems dishonest

because ...

Contradiction 6: Not only

is Sivam's Moon a natural and temporal benefic, as

lord of the 1st, but Sivam's

Moon receives a full aspect from Jupiter, and

this forms a raja yoga as

Jupiter is the lord of the Sivam's 7th and 10th.

This is the only full aspect

his 5th house and Moon receives. But this

aspect, and the raja yoga,

are not mentioned.

Contradiction 7: Comparison

of 5th house lords. While Satyam's 5th house lord

is Venus in her own sign,

Libra, you do not mention that Sivam's 5th house

lord is in a kendra house,

and aspected by Jupiter, the 7-10 lord. Granted,

Saturn also aspects Mars,

but Mars's dispositor is Mercury in Gemini in the

Lagna.

The final analysis of who

has the stronger D-27 still favors Satyam, but this

is certainly not as clear-cut

as you present it to be, and your subjective

bias still seems very evident

to me here. This subjective bias soon becomes

full blown in the case of

the D-24's.

D-24

Contradiction 8: You do not

adequately discuss the D-24 Lagna of Satyam. You

mention that the "lagna

lord occupies a trine and it makes him fortunate."

You do not mention that

the Sun is debilitated in the Lagna in Libra, or that

the debilitated Sun in the

Lagna receives the 4th house aspect from malefic

Mars. You make a big point

of all of Sivam's debilitations, but you do not

mention Satyam's here, including

the malefic aspect to it.

Contradiction 9: You say

that Satyam's "lagna lord occupies a trine and it

makes him fortunate." You

do not mention that the exact same is true of

Sivam's chart, or the fact

that on top of this, Sivam's lagna lord is better

aspected than Satyam's.

Contradiction 10: You do

not mention the difficult aspect's to Satyam's lagna

lord. Again, you say that

"Satyam's D-24, lagna lord occupies a trine and it

makes him fortunate." You

do not mention that this Venus is hemmed in by

Saturn and Mars (although

Saturn is a raja yoga karaka), and receiving the

7th house aspect from both

Rahu and Ketu, if you consider this aspect from

Rahu/Ketu.

Contradiction 11: You do

not compare the positive aspects to Satyam's and

Sivam's lagna lords. Satyam's

lagna lord receives no positive aspects.

Sivam's lagna lord, however,

receives full aspects from Jupiter and Moon, and

the aspect of Jupiter is

to its sign of exaltation while the aspect from the

Moon is to her own sign.

And these aspects form a raja yoga of 1-5-9 lords in

mutual aspect.

Contradiction 12: While you

mention the strength of Satyam's lagna lord

dispositor, you do not mention

the strength of Sivam's lagna lord dispositor

to compare the two. While

Satyam's lagna lord dispositor is Mercury in

Aquarius in the 5th, aspected

by Mars and Saturn, you do not mention that

Sivam's lagna lord dispositor

is the Moon, conjunct Jupiter (the 5th house

Lord), and mutually aspected

by 1st Lord, Mars, to its sign of exaltation,

and a part of a raja yoga

between 1-5-9 lords.

Contradiction 13: While you

mention Saturn's aspect to Satyam's 5th house

being to its own sign, you

do not mention the aspect from malefic Mars to the

same 5th house.

Contradiction 14: You simply

say that Sivam's Lagna lord is debilitated, Mars

in Cancer. You left out

a lot. While Mars is also aspected by Saturn, it is

in the 9th house, aspected

by the Moon to her own sign, aspected by Jupiter

to his exaltation sign,

and Jupiter is the 5th lord while the Moon is the 9th

lord! Also when Mars is

in Cancer and Jupiter is in Capricorn, you cannot

simply say that they are

debilitated and leave it at that, because each is

aspecting each other to

their own signs of exaltation. And the Moon, the 9th

lord, aspects both. Additionally,

this is a powerful raja yoga with the 1st,

5th, and 9th lords all in

mutual aspect, all to either their own sign or

their sign of exaltations.

Additionally, as discussed above, the Lagna lord's

dispositor in Sivam's D-24

is the Moon, which is incredibly well placed for

the many reasons listed

above.

Contradiction 15: You do

not mention the house placements of the 5th house

lords, which you consider

very important in D-24. While Satyam's 5th house

lord is in the dusthana

8th (although, granted, a raja yoga karaka and in

aspect with Jupiter--although

Jupiter is not as strong, ruling houses 3 and

6), Sivam's 5th house lord

is in the 3rd, and forming a much more powerful

raja yoga. Certainly the

3rd is considered a better house than the 8th,

especially when the 3rd

house planet forms a raja yoga with 1-5-9 lords in

mutual aspect, all to their

own sign or signs of exaltation. These planets

also do not form a raja

yoga in Satyam's chart.

Contradiction 16: Of Sivam's

5th lord, all you say is that he is debilitated,

but you left out all of

the above, including the conjunction with Moon,

aspect from Mars to its

exaltation sign, and raja yoga of 1-5-9 lords in

mutual aspect. Also, the

5th lord's dispositor, Saturn, is well placed in a

kendra and receiving the

full aspect from 5th lord Jupiter.

In the case of the D-24,

according to the standards you set in this whole

article, it is very hard

to say that Satyam's D-24 is stronger than

Sivam's--in fact the opposite

is probably the case. And here again you have

clearly only mentioned the

points which favor your argument. And since the

D-24 is the most important

varga for educational studies, your overall

argument would not seem

to support the reality that: "Satyam was a brilliant

student ... Sivam was a

mediocre student (except in mathematics)."

Since, Narasimha, i know

that you are someone who is interested in objective,

scientific astrology, i

thought these points should be considered. It seemed

to me that you were trying

to convince people, especially western

astrologers, of the great

abilities of vedic astrology; and anyone who read

your article not knowing

how to analyze these conditions to be able to think

for themselves, would probably

have been impressed. But these contradictions

would certainly not give

a good impression to the scientific or world

community, whom you are

trying to protect from the bad influences of

unintelligent and insane

astrologers.

I appreciated your help and

your concern, Narasimha, and i certainly wish you

all the best. I am simply

returning the favor of being as constructively

critical with you as you

have been kind enough to be with me. I hope you will

be able to appreciate my

honesty on this matter. I think we both care enough

about astrology to sometimes

assist our fellow astrologers to present our

science with the greatest

integrity and accuracy possible, for the well-being

of all who practice it and

benefit from it.

much love and aloha to all,

moses

www.astrologyforthesoul.com

........ May Jupiter's light shine on

us .......

|| Om Tat Sat

|| Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu ||

Your use of is subject

to the

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June 12, 2001

Pingali Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao

[pvklnrao (AT) hclt (DOT) com]Tuesday, 12 June 2001 2:35To:

vedic astrologySubject: Re: [vedic astrology] Satyam and

SivamDear Moses, I am shocked. I do not care if Narasimha's article had left

some points or not. But he is a human. It often happens that even some of

salient features escape our notice. Otherwise, we can predict correctly every

time. Some time, after the event happens, we come back and wonder how we missed

it in the first glance. DID NOT THIS HAPPEN TO YOU SO FAR??? Be sincere in

answereing this question to yourself. So, calling some one as dishonesh and

decisive due to either wrong points or missed points is extremely unwarented

(UNLESS YOU THINK, AN ASTROLOGER NEVER MISSES A POINT WHILE READING A

HOROSCOPE). This is a hermitage like group. Let us not use such insulting

words. You can dis-agree with or put down one readings or observations. But, do

not put down the personality. What is the proof you have that Narasimha wantedly

did quote worng points? How are you sure that he was dishonest?? Please refrain

in using such strong words. Narasimhas articles may have some wrong

comments/calculations. But to err is human. Do not tag them as dishonesty. Best

regards, Vijay. MosesSiregarIII (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: Narasimha, on your website,

www.vedicastrologer.org, you try to argue that the D-6, D-24, and D-24

divisional charts of two twins born two minutes apart clearly shows why Satyam

has solid health, an easy-going temperment, and was a brilliant student while

Sivam has poor health, a gloomy temperment, and was a mediocre student (except

in math). Birth data: Nov 4, 1970 76E53 30N44 5:30 zones ahead (east) of GMT

Satyam: 4:06 pm Sivam: 4:08 pm In discussing the D-6, D-24, and D-27's you make

it look crystal clear, plain as day, that the two charts show these differences.

But any cautious observer will notice that you only argue the half of the story

that supports your claim and completely ignore all of the points that would not

support your claim. I came away from this article feeling like you were very

deceptive and biased in presenting this information. Let's establish the ground

rules of what will be considered, using your own statements as the standards: 1)

Planets in trines or kendras are considered good, while planets in dusthana's

are not (6/8/12). You make this point at the top of the D-6 discussion 2)

Exalted planets are considered strong, and debilitated planets are considered

weak. You make this point when you discuss Mars in Capricorn, under D-6, and

debilitations of Sivam under D-27 and D-24. 3) Planets in the Lagna (1st house)

are considered when it comes to determining the strength of the Lagna. You make

this point when discussing Satyam's D-6 4) Conjunction with a debilitated

planet is considered a weakness, or the presence of a debilitated planet in a

house is considered a weakness. You make this point when discussing Sivam's

D-6, D-27, and D-24. 5) The houses a planet owns influences it effect upon

matters. You make this point when you discuss the 6 and 8 rulers, in Sivam's

D-6, as bad influences. From this, we can also assume that planets ruling good

houses are positive. 6) Aspects from malefics are considered bad. When you

consider Sivam's aspect from Saturn to Mars you establish this point. 7) By

virtue of the last point, we can assume that aspects from natural benefics are

good. Perhaps you did not mention this yourself, because this would have

favored Sivam more than Satyam. 8) Aspects from a planet to its own sign are

considered positive. You establish this when you discuss the aspect from Saturn

to Mercury in Aquarius in Satyam's D-24. From this, we can also assume that a

planet in aspect to its exaltation sign would be positive. 9) You consider an

aspect to the Lagna as significant. You establish this when you discuss the

aspect from Satyam's D-6 Sun to Lagna, and say that this is a positive aspect

since the Sun is an indicator of longevity. 10) Dispositors are considered. You

establish this when you discuss the dispositor of Satyams' D-24 lagna. So Lagna

dispositors are certainly considered, and from this general principle the 5th

house dispositors must also mean something. So then these are the ground rules.

In your discussion, however, you only made the points that supported your

claims, and left out at least 16 points that i have listed below, when it did

not suit your argument. Now to the specific contradictions: D-6 Contradiction

1: You mentioned that Sivam's Lagna lord is conjunct a debilitated planet, but

you did not mention that Satyam's is also. Contradiction 2: Although Sivam's

Lagna lord is in the 8th house, and conjunct a debilitated planet, Venus (just

as Satyam's Lagna lord is conjunct a debilitated planet), you do not mention

that Sivam's Lagna lord in the 8th is conjunct a natural benefic, which is also

a raja yoga karaka for Capricorn Lagna (which, granted, would also be the case

for Satyam's Aquarius lagna). Contradiction 3: You mention the aspect from

Satyam's Sun to his Lagna, and say that this is positive since the Sun is the

indicator of longevity. Yet you do not mention that the Sun is the 8th lord.

Contradiction 4: You mention that Sivam's kidney problems would be shown by the

presence of the 6 and 8 lords in the 7th, and the 7th lord in the 6th. But you

do not mention that Satyam's 8 lord is in his 7th, or that his 7th lord is in

the 8th, or that his 7th house receives the full aspect of malefic Mars, and

that this aspect is from Mars to its sign of debiliation, Cancer. Still,

Satyam's D-6 Lagna is stronger than Sivam's, as you have argued, although

you're beginning to establish that you only argue points that go in your favor.

D-27 Contradiction 5: Sivam's D-27 Lagna lord is in the 5th house, which

according to your established standards is good. You go on to say that this

Moon is debilitated, implying that this is the big problem, but this seems

dishonest because ... Contradiction 6: Not only is Sivam's Moon a natural and

temporal benefic, as lord of the 1st, but Sivam's Moon receives a full aspect

from Jupiter, and this forms a raja yoga as Jupiter is the lord of the Sivam's

7th and 10th. This is the only full aspect his 5th house and Moon receives. But

this aspect, and the raja yoga, are not mentioned. Contradiction 7: Comparison

of 5th house lords. While Satyam's 5th house lord is Venus in her own sign,

Libra, you do not mention that Sivam's 5th house lord is in a kendra house, and

aspected by Jupiter, the 7-10 lord. Granted, Saturn also aspects Mars, but

Mars's dispositor is Mercury in Gemini in the Lagna. The final analysis of who

has the stronger D-27 still favors Satyam, but this is certainly not as

clear-cut as you present it to be, and your subjective bias still seems very

evident to me here. This subjective bias soon becomes full blown in the case of

the D-24's. D-24 Contradiction 8: You do not adequately discuss the D-24 Lagna

of Satyam. You mention that the "lagna lord occupies a trine and it makes him

fortunate." You do not mention that the Sun is debilitated in the Lagna in

Libra, or that the debilitated Sun in the Lagna receives the 4th house aspect

from malefic Mars. You make a big point of all of Sivam's debilitations, but

you do not mention Satyam's here, including the malefic aspect to it.

Contradiction 9: You say that Satyam's "lagna lord occupies a trine and it

makes him fortunate." You do not mention that the exact same is true of Sivam's

chart, or the fact that on top of this, Sivam's lagna lord is better aspected

than Satyam's. Contradiction 10: You do not mention the difficult aspect's to

Satyam's lagna lord. Again, you say that "Satyam's D-24, lagna lord occupies a

trine and it makes him fortunate." You do not mention that this Venus is hemmed

in by Saturn and Mars (although Saturn is a raja yoga karaka), and receiving the

7th house aspect from both Rahu and Ketu, if you consider this aspect from

Rahu/Ketu. Contradiction 11: You do not compare the positive aspects to

Satyam's and Sivam's lagna lords. Satyam's lagna lord receives no positive

aspects. Sivam's lagna lord, however, receives full aspects from Jupiter and

Moon, and the aspect of Jupiter is to its sign of exaltation while the aspect

from the Moon is to her own sign. And these aspects form a raja yoga of 1-5-9

lords in mutual aspect. Contradiction 12: While you mention the strength of

Satyam's lagna lord dispositor, you do not mention the strength of Sivam's

lagna lord dispositor to compare the two. While Satyam's lagna lord dispositor

is Mercury in Aquarius in the 5th, aspected by Mars and Saturn, you do not

mention that Sivam's lagna lord dispositor is the Moon, conjunct Jupiter (the

5th house Lord), and mutually aspected by 1st Lord, Mars, to its sign of

exaltation, and a part of a raja yoga between 1-5-9 lords. Contradiction 13:

While you mention Saturn's aspect to Satyam's 5th house being to its own sign,

you do not mention the aspect from malefic Mars to the same 5th house.

Contradiction 14: You simply say that Sivam's Lagna lord is debilitated, Mars

in Cancer. You left out a lot. While Mars is also aspected by Saturn, it is in

the 9th house, aspected by the Moon to her own sign, aspected by Jupiter to his

exaltation sign, and Jupiter is the 5th lord while the Moon is the 9th lord!

Also when Mars is in Cancer and Jupiter is in Capricorn, you cannot simply say

that they are debilitated and leave it at that, because each is aspecting each

other to their own signs of exaltation. And the Moon, the 9th lord, aspects

both. Additionally, this is a powerful raja yoga with the 1st, 5th, and 9th

lords all in mutual aspect, all to either their own sign or their sign of

exaltations. Additionally, as discussed above, the Lagna lord's dispositor in

Sivam's D-24 is the Moon, which is incredibly well placed for the many reasons

listed above. Contradiction 15: You do not mention the house placements of the

5th house lords, which you consider very important in D-24. While Satyam's 5th

house lord is in the dusthana 8th (although, granted, a raja yoga karaka and in

aspect with Jupiter--although Jupiter is not as strong, ruling houses 3 and 6),

Sivam's 5th house lord is in the 3rd, and forming a much more powerful raja

yoga. Certainly the 3rd is considered a better house than the 8th, especially

when the 3rd house planet forms a raja yoga with 1-5-9 lords in mutual aspect,

all to their own sign or signs of exaltation. These planets also do not form a

raja yoga in Satyam's chart. Contradiction 16: Of Sivam's 5th lord, all you say

is that he is debilitated, but you left out all of the above, including the

conjunction with Moon, aspect from Mars to its exaltation sign, and raja yoga

of 1-5-9 lords in mutual aspect. Also, the 5th lord's dispositor, Saturn, is

well placed in a kendra and receiving the full aspect from 5th lord Jupiter. In

the case of the D-24, according to the standards you set in this whole article,

it is very hard to say that Satyam's D-24 is stronger than Sivam's--in fact the

opposite is probably the case. And here again you have clearly only mentioned

the points which favor your argument. And since the D-24 is the most important

varga for educational studies, your overall argument would not seem to support

the reality that: "Satyam was a brilliant student ... Sivam was a mediocre

student (except in mathematics)." Since, Narasimha, i know that you are someone

who is interested in objective, scientific astrology, i thought these points

should be considered. It seemed to me that you were trying to convince people,

especially western astrologers, of the great abilities of vedic astrology; and

anyone who read your article not knowing how to analyze these conditions to be

able to think for themselves, would probably have been impressed. But these

contradictions would certainly not give a good impression to the scientific or

world community, whom you are trying to protect from the bad influences of

unintelligent and insane astrologers. I appreciated your help and your concern,

Narasimha, and i certainly wish you all the best. I am simply returning the

favor of being as constructively critical with you as you have been kind enough

to be with me. I hope you will be able to appreciate my honesty on this matter.

I think we both care enough about astrology to sometimes assist our fellow

astrologers to present our science with the greatest integrity and accuracy

possible, for the well-being of all who practice it and benefit from it. much

love and aloha to all, moses www.astrologyforthesoul.com Archives:

vedic astrology Group info:

vedic astrology/info.html To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology- ....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

June 12, 2001

Dear Moses,

This is indeed unfortunate. What;s the point in all this? there will

always be disagreemnts... but certainly not insulting language. isnt

humilty the first stepping stone for gaining knowledge?

Please let students of vedic astrology like me learn more than

getting into all this unproductive eogistic talk!

Regards

Katti Narahari.

vedic astrology, "Somaraja" <somaraja@c...> wrote:

>

> Pingali Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao

> [pvklnrao@h...]

> Tuesday, 12 June 2001 2:35

> vedic astrology

> Re: [vedic astrology] Satyam and Sivam

>

> Dear Moses,

> I am shocked. I do not care if Narasimha's article had left some

points or

> not. But he is a human.

> It often happens that even some of salient features escape our

notice.

> Otherwise, we can predict

> correctly every time. Some time, after the event happens, we come

back and

> wonder how we missed

> it in the first glance. DID NOT THIS HAPPEN TO YOU SO FAR??? Be

sincere in

> answereing this

> question to yourself. So, calling some one as dishonesh and

decisive due

> to either wrong points or

> missed points is extremely unwarented (UNLESS YOU THINK, AN

ASTROLOGER

> NEVER MISSES

> A POINT WHILE READING A HOROSCOPE).

>

> This is a hermitage like group. Let us not use such insulting

words. You

> can dis-agree with or put down one readings

> or observations. But, do not put down the personality. What is

the proof

> you have that Narasimha wantedly did quote

> worng points? How are you sure that he was dishonest?? Please

refrain in

> using such strong words.

>

> Narasimhas articles may have some wrong comments/calculations.

But to err

> is human. Do not tag them as dishonesty.

>

> Best regards,

> Vijay.

>

> MosesSiregarIII@a... wrote:

>

> Narasimha, on your website, www.vedicastrologer.org, you try to

argue

> that

> the D-6, D-24, and D-24 divisional charts of two twins born two

minutes

> apart

> clearly shows why Satyam has solid health, an easy-going

temperment, and

> was

> a brilliant student while Sivam has poor health, a gloomy

temperment,

> and was

> a mediocre student (except in math).

> Birth data:

> Nov 4, 1970

> 76E53

> 30N44

> 5:30 zones ahead (east) of GMT

> Satyam: 4:06 pm

> Sivam: 4:08 pm

>

> In discussing the D-6, D-24, and D-27's you make it look

crystal clear,

> plain

> as day, that the two charts show these differences. But any

cautious

> observer

> will notice that you only argue the half of the story that

supports your

> claim and completely ignore all of the points that would not

support

> your

> claim. I came away from this article feeling like you were very

> deceptive and

> biased in presenting this information.

>

> Let's establish the ground rules of what will be considered,

using your

> own

> statements as the standards:

>

> 1) Planets in trines or kendras are considered good, while

planets in

> dusthana's are not (6/8/12). You make this point at the top of

the D-6

> discussion

>

> 2) Exalted planets are considered strong, and debilitated

planets are

> considered weak. You make this point when you discuss Mars in

Capricorn,

> under D-6, and debilitations of Sivam under D-27 and D-24.

>

> 3) Planets in the Lagna (1st house) are considered when it

comes to

> determining the strength of the Lagna. You make this point when

> discussing

> Satyam's D-6

>

> 4) Conjunction with a debilitated planet is considered a

weakness, or

> the

> presence of a debilitated planet in a house is considered a

weakness.

> You

> make this point when discussing Sivam's D-6, D-27, and D-24.

>

> 5) The houses a planet owns influences it effect upon matters.

You make

> this

> point when you discuss the 6 and 8 rulers, in Sivam's D-6, as

bad

> influences.

> From this, we can also assume that planets ruling good houses

are

> positive.

>

> 6) Aspects from malefics are considered bad. When you consider

Sivam's

> aspect

> from Saturn to Mars you establish this point.

>

> 7) By virtue of the last point, we can assume that aspects from

natural

> benefics are good. Perhaps you did not mention this yourself,

because

> this

> would have favored Sivam more than Satyam.

>

> 8) Aspects from a planet to its own sign are considered

positive. You

> establish this when you discuss the aspect from Saturn to

Mercury in

> Aquarius

> in Satyam's D-24. From this, we can also assume that a planet

in aspect

> to

> its exaltation sign would be positive.

>

> 9) You consider an aspect to the Lagna as significant. You

establish

> this

> when you discuss the aspect from Satyam's D-6 Sun to Lagna, and

say that

> this

> is a positive aspect since the Sun is an indicator of longevity.

>

> 10) Dispositors are considered. You establish this when you

discuss the

> dispositor of Satyams' D-24 lagna. So Lagna dispositors are

certainly

> considered, and from this general principle the 5th house

dispositors

> must

> also mean something.

>

> So then these are the ground rules. In your discussion,

however, you

> only

> made the points that supported your claims, and left out at

least 16

> points

> that i have listed below, when it did not suit your argument.

Now to the

> specific contradictions:

>

> D-6

>

> Contradiction 1: You mentioned that Sivam's Lagna lord is

conjunct a

> debilitated planet, but you did not mention that Satyam's is

also.

>

> Contradiction 2: Although Sivam's Lagna lord is in the 8th

house, and

> conjunct a debilitated planet, Venus (just as Satyam's Lagna

lord is

> conjunct

> a debilitated planet), you do not mention that Sivam's Lagna

lord in the

> 8th

> is conjunct a natural benefic, which is also a raja yoga karaka

for

> Capricorn

> Lagna (which, granted, would also be the case for Satyam's

Aquarius

> lagna).

>

> Contradiction 3: You mention the aspect from Satyam's Sun to

his Lagna,

> and

> say that this is positive since the Sun is the indicator of

longevity.

> Yet

> you do not mention that the Sun is the 8th lord.

>

> Contradiction 4: You mention that Sivam's kidney problems would

be shown

> by

> the presence of the 6 and 8 lords in the 7th, and the 7th lord

in the

> 6th.

> But you do not mention that Satyam's 8 lord is in his 7th, or

that his

> 7th

> lord is in the 8th, or that his 7th house receives the full

aspect of

> malefic

> Mars, and that this aspect is from Mars to its sign of

debiliation,

> Cancer.

>

> Still, Satyam's D-6 Lagna is stronger than Sivam's, as you have

argued,

> although you're beginning to establish that you only argue

points that

> go in

> your favor.

>

> D-27

>

> Contradiction 5: Sivam's D-27 Lagna lord is in the 5th house,

which

> according

> to your established standards is good. You go on to say that

this Moon

> is

> debilitated, implying that this is the big problem, but this

seems

> dishonest

> because ...

>

> Contradiction 6: Not only is Sivam's Moon a natural and temporal

> benefic, as

> lord of the 1st, but Sivam's Moon receives a full aspect from

Jupiter,

> and

> this forms a raja yoga as Jupiter is the lord of the Sivam's

7th and

> 10th.

> This is the only full aspect his 5th house and Moon receives.

But this

> aspect, and the raja yoga, are not mentioned.

>

> Contradiction 7: Comparison of 5th house lords. While Satyam's

5th house

> lord

> is Venus in her own sign, Libra, you do not mention that

Sivam's 5th

> house

> lord is in a kendra house, and aspected by Jupiter, the 7-10

lord.

> Granted,

> Saturn also aspects Mars, but Mars's dispositor is Mercury in

Gemini in

> the

> Lagna.

>

> The final analysis of who has the stronger D-27 still favors

Satyam, but

> this

> is certainly not as clear-cut as you present it to be, and your

> subjective

> bias still seems very evident to me here. This subjective bias

soon

> becomes

> full blown in the case of the D-24's.

>

> D-24

>

> Contradiction 8: You do not adequately discuss the D-24 Lagna

of Satyam.

> You

> mention that the "lagna lord occupies a trine and it makes him

> fortunate."

> You do not mention that the Sun is debilitated in the Lagna in

Libra, or

> that

> the debilitated Sun in the Lagna receives the 4th house aspect

from

> malefic

> Mars. You make a big point of all of Sivam's debilitations, but

you do

> not

> mention Satyam's here, including the malefic aspect to it.

>

> Contradiction 9: You say that Satyam's "lagna lord occupies a

trine and

> it

> makes him fortunate." You do not mention that the exact same is

true of

> Sivam's chart, or the fact that on top of this, Sivam's lagna

lord is

> better

> aspected than Satyam's.

>

> Contradiction 10: You do not mention the difficult aspect's to

Satyam's

> lagna

> lord. Again, you say that "Satyam's D-24, lagna lord occupies a

trine

> and it

> makes him fortunate." You do not mention that this Venus is

hemmed in by

> Saturn and Mars (although Saturn is a raja yoga karaka), and

receiving

> the

> 7th house aspect from both Rahu and Ketu, if you consider this

aspect

> from

> Rahu/Ketu.

>

> Contradiction 11: You do not compare the positive aspects to

Satyam's

> and

> Sivam's lagna lords. Satyam's lagna lord receives no positive

aspects.

> Sivam's lagna lord, however, receives full aspects from Jupiter

and

> Moon, and

> the aspect of Jupiter is to its sign of exaltation while the

aspect from

> the

> Moon is to her own sign. And these aspects form a raja yoga of

1-5-9

> lords in

> mutual aspect.

>

> Contradiction 12: While you mention the strength of Satyam's

lagna lord

> dispositor, you do not mention the strength of Sivam's lagna

lord

> dispositor

> to compare the two. While Satyam's lagna lord dispositor is

Mercury in

> Aquarius in the 5th, aspected by Mars and Saturn, you do not

mention

> that

> Sivam's lagna lord dispositor is the Moon, conjunct Jupiter

(the 5th

> house

> Lord), and mutually aspected by 1st Lord, Mars, to its sign of

> exaltation,

> and a part of a raja yoga between 1-5-9 lords.

>

> Contradiction 13: While you mention Saturn's aspect to Satyam's

5th

> house

> being to its own sign, you do not mention the aspect from

malefic Mars

> to the

> same 5th house.

>

> Contradiction 14: You simply say that Sivam's Lagna lord is

debilitated,

> Mars

> in Cancer. You left out a lot. While Mars is also aspected by

Saturn, it

> is

> in the 9th house, aspected by the Moon to her own sign,

aspected by

> Jupiter

> to his exaltation sign, and Jupiter is the 5th lord while the

Moon is

> the 9th

> lord! Also when Mars is in Cancer and Jupiter is in Capricorn,

you

> cannot

> simply say that they are debilitated and leave it at that,

because each

> is

> aspecting each other to their own signs of exaltation. And the

Moon, the

> 9th

> lord, aspects both. Additionally, this is a powerful raja yoga

with the

> 1st,

> 5th, and 9th lords all in mutual aspect, all to either their

own sign or

> their sign of exaltations. Additionally, as discussed above,

the Lagna

> lord's

> dispositor in Sivam's D-24 is the Moon, which is incredibly

well placed

> for

> the many reasons listed above.

>

> Contradiction 15: You do not mention the house placements of

the 5th

> house

> lords, which you consider very important in D-24. While

Satyam's 5th

> house

> lord is in the dusthana 8th (although, granted, a raja yoga

karaka and

> in

> aspect with Jupiter--although Jupiter is not as strong, ruling

houses 3

> and

> 6), Sivam's 5th house lord is in the 3rd, and forming a much

more

> powerful

> raja yoga. Certainly the 3rd is considered a better house than

the 8th,

> especially when the 3rd house planet forms a raja yoga with 1-5-

9 lords

> in

> mutual aspect, all to their own sign or signs of exaltation.

These

> planets

> also do not form a raja yoga in Satyam's chart.

>

> Contradiction 16: Of Sivam's 5th lord, all you say is that he is

> debilitated,

> but you left out all of the above, including the conjunction

with Moon,

> aspect from Mars to its exaltation sign, and raja yoga of 1-5-9

lords in

> mutual aspect. Also, the 5th lord's dispositor, Saturn, is well

placed

> in a

> kendra and receiving the full aspect from 5th lord Jupiter.

>

> In the case of the D-24, according to the standards you set in

this

> whole

> article, it is very hard to say that Satyam's D-24 is stronger

than

> Sivam's--in fact the opposite is probably the case. And here

again you

> have

> clearly only mentioned the points which favor your argument.

And since

> the

> D-24 is the most important varga for educational studies, your

overall

> argument would not seem to support the reality that: "Satyam

was a

> brilliant

> student ... Sivam was a mediocre student (except in

mathematics)."

>

> Since, Narasimha, i know that you are someone who is interested

in

> objective,

> scientific astrology, i thought these points should be

considered. It

> seemed

> to me that you were trying to convince people, especially

western

> astrologers, of the great abilities of vedic astrology; and

anyone who

> read

> your article not knowing how to analyze these conditions to be

able to

> think

> for themselves, would probably have been impressed. But these

> contradictions

> would certainly not give a good impression to the scientific or

world

> community, whom you are trying to protect from the bad

influences of

> unintelligent and insane astrologers.

>

> I appreciated your help and your concern, Narasimha, and i

certainly

> wish you

> all the best. I am simply returning the favor of being as

constructively

> critical with you as you have been kind enough to be with me. I

hope you

> will

> be able to appreciate my honesty on this matter. I think we

both care

> enough

> about astrology to sometimes assist our fellow astrologers to

present

> our

> science with the greatest integrity and accuracy possible, for

the

> well-being

> of all who practice it and benefit from it.

>

> much love and aloha to all,

> moses

> www.astrologyforthesoul.com

>

> Group info: vedic-

astrology/info.html

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

> Terms of

Service.

June 12, 2001

Namaste

I fully second the views expressed by Vijay. The matter has been dragged too

much already. In the process we are being deprived of the invaluable inputs

that may have come our way from Shri P.V.Narasimha Rao.

Best wishes

Anil

-

Pingali Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao

vedic astrology

Monday, 11 June, 2001 11:35 PM

Re: [vedic astrology] Satyam and Sivam

Dear Moses, I am shocked. I do not care if Narasimha's article had left some

points or not. But he is a human. It often happens that even some of salient

features escape our notice. Otherwise, we can predict correctly every time.

Some time, after the event happens, we come back and wonder how we missed it in

the first glance. DID NOT THIS HAPPEN TO YOU SO FAR??? Be sincere in answereing

this question to yourself. So, calling some one as dishonesh and decisive due

to either wrong points or missed points is extremely unwarented (UNLESS YOU

THINK, AN ASTROLOGER NEVER MISSES A POINT WHILE READING A HOROSCOPE). This is a

hermitage like group. Let us not use such insulting words. You can dis-agree

with or put down one readings or observations. But, do not put down the

personality. What is the proof you have that Narasimha wantedly did quote worng

points? How are you sure that he was dishonest?? Please refrain in using such

strong words. Narasimhas articles may have some wrong comments/calculations.

But to err is human. Do not tag them as dishonesty. Best regards, Vijay.

MosesSiregarIII (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: Narasimha, on your website,