Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Respected Arjunji, since you are feeling so bad about my comments on jyotish/jyotishis, let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally hurt sopme strong sentiments here. Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with this group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked anything. Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who want free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I have had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in and given money to.. I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my perception of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets agree to disagree and close it at that. with regards, Shantala. , "panditarjun2004" <panditarjun2004 wrote: > > dear friends > > as you are all aware, shantalaji first raised a question of > astrologers not following a system. in the subsequent mail > shantalaji posted it positively by saying her queries are an attempt > to make the astrology a more robust and more working science. if > this is the true intention, where from the "accountability" question > was put up for free reading astrologers in this august group, nay, > the next mail questions the "commitment" of these free reading > astrologers. then comes the criticism on astrologers not giving > receipts for the fees received. then comes playing a "critic" role > and eulogising the role of a critic doing a free service. if this > is to continue, the next query would be to brand all answering > astrologers as incapable and then the querent's ego is served by > throwing eggs on all noble astrologers. can the critic ask > him/herself as to what contribution he/she has given instead of > criticising the free givers. > > with best wishes > arjun > > , vattem krishnan > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, > > I think personal attributes to astrologers and statements > like: "astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > > doctors who never feel bad" are not good for any pallet > > Code of conduct for the seekers having problems and the soothe > sayer willing to devite time are essential .Neevr it can be one > sided. > > Secondly giving answers,calrifying issues is no doubt service > and to what extent with how much honesty on either side.The group > and the site is basically to do as much as it can.Certainly not at > the cost of basic decency. > > My experience shows,members are never satisfied with the advices > even after consulting variety of Astrologers still find that they > are not satisfied with what they are experiencing.In all such > conditions is to allege that jyotish is not scientific and jyotishis > are bad.The scales being used for measuring the strength of jyotish > as well as jyotishis becomes lopsideds and is only to humiliate the > people involved. > > For jyotish to be achieving the goals and jyotish to do their > job well statement of facts,sincerity in addressing problems and > faith are primary requisites.In most of the occassions querants pass > judgements to fulfil their own pleasures.Infact the group is > approached to test credentials but never to resolve the issues. > > If what is intended as an organsied attempt to come up:the > approach has to be simple and staight forward and the environment is > of sharing. > > Infact I was always concerned with now and here situations which > leads to "jyotish scene in flux" > > Astrology,a natural study of cosmic effects has no doubt has to > gear up with "multiple > > variables being tossed around,".These issues can be put in order > with a close perspect and effort to see" the dust has yet to > settle"is veru much possible.her mutual interest ahve to > synchronise "a bit"but not as a driver and driven to go around > > Before any such organized attempt could be contemplated like > minded people have to come together and note down the issues and > come up through analytical and practical methods.This would be > possible (as you suggest)when you are ready to look through plai > glasses. > > krishnan > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > Shantala ji, > > > > You raise some very good points, and some practical and some > > impractical suggestions :-) > > > > If astrologers are so egoistic (some interpret that as being > > defensive and insecure, as in taking up challenges like that) kind > > of like medical doctors were at one point in time many years ago > > when a second opinion was not as easily accepted. I have > experienced > > that generation of doctors so I speak from first hand experience! > > The modern astrologers, particularly the younger generation (20- > 40) > > are more tolerant and aware of the shortcomings and also because > > many of these are otherwise professionals, are gainfully employed > > and productive even outside of astrological area of expertise, > have > > strong educational background (and not just in karmakand and other > > priestly skills -- not that that is a disqualification of any > sort) > > and therefore less likely to have an axe to grind. Unfortunately, > > most of them do not have too much time to really build a strong > > castle for astrology. The astrology professionals, earning a > living > > from astrology, are capable but must work hard at astrology to > keep > > the lamp burning and so also have no time. > > > > That is the impractical part! Long ago, some 20 years ago, western > > tropical astrologers had many such attempts at quizzes and blind > > testing, like in the Hamilton Project and several others recorded > in > > Nias and Eysenck's masterful presentation (Astrology science or > > superstition). With the jyotish scene in flux with multiple > > variables being tossed around, the dust has yet to settle a bit > > before such an organized attempt would be possible as you suggest. > > > > Until then, let us all honestly and accurately record what we see > > and let us ask questions, even if those cause discomfort to > someone > > essentially good and even elderly. This would not be disrespectful > > in my opinion. Not asking would! > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "shantala_pandit" > > <shantala_pandit@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > > > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it > all > > > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 members > > on > > > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their > > > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this > > birth...and > > > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put > on > > > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see > > that > > > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > > > > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second > opinion, > > > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > > > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can > create > > a > > > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their > predictions, > > > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- > > > determined period of time to see what percentage of their > findings > > > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and > > tribulations > > > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and then > > > decide whether other things should be within the scope of the > > study > > > or not. > > > > > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, > their > > > credibility as a breed would increase. > > > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's sentiments > > > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman > > frequently > > > confused by astrologers :-) > > > with regards, > > > Shantala > > > > > > , "auromirra19" > > > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > RRji, > > > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of > a > > > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and > also > > > not > > > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of > > becoming > > > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you > said > > > we > > > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to > devote > > > to > > > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > > > mean > > > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > > > later > > > > research on water divination but it is used for water > divination > > > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are > there > > > to > > > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been > > spared > > > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead > > us > > > to > > > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may > > sound > > > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply > > going > > > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world > and > > > like > > > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research > > for > > > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have > > no > > > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > > > applications and be happy. > > > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end > > and > > > if > > > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of > > who > > > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and > Nalini) > > > in > > > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > > > potential > > > > or > > > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > > > know. > > > > It > > > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there > > might > > > > lie > > > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who > > are > > > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand > at > > > the > > > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > > > certain > > > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as > long > > > as > > > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding > > about > > > > the > > > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- > > research' > > > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to > be > > > > fair > > > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less > knowledgeable > > > and > > > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > > > raising > > > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or > not > > > > easily > > > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth > etc), > > > are > > > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > > > intrinsic > > > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things > such > > as > > > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only > > astrology > > > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the > > unverifiable > > > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > > > confidently > > > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these > raises > > > > some > > > > > concerns. > > > > > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a > science. > > > But > > > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > > > scientists > > > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > > > that > > > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions > > should > > > > not > > > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > > > answer > > > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect > > me > > > to > > > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most > > hard- > > > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > > > curiosity > > > > of > > > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond > > the > > > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. > Just > > > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the > Yarrow > > > > stick > > > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to > > do > > > > with > > > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > > > would > > > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > > > Wells, > > > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > > > classic > > > > > novel. > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and > so > > on > > > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > > > shrinks > > > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > > > refuse > > > > to > > > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that > someone > > > has > > > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > > > given > > > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady > > ground > > > of > > > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > > > sort > > > > of > > > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or > > what > > > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking > > into > > > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated > again > > > and > > > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > > > convictions, > > > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand - - > > > > perhaps > > > > > for the first time. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation > > so > > > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > > > However, > > > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > > > particularly > > > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that > > are > > > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors > and > > > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- > > whether > > > > they > > > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not > mean > > > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out > of > > > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and > dedicated > > > to > > > > > serving others through it are professionals and must > maintain > > > the > > > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has > > everything > > > to > > > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the > (right) > > > > hands > > > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has > > great > > > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be > conditioned > > > > though > > > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or > other > > > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result > > we > > > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate > objectives > > > not > > > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is > not > > > that > > > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on > > the > > > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a > third > > > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta > > devatas > > > > why > > > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > > > some > > > > > two > > > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water > and > > > > water > > > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can > answer > > > any > > > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > > > gifts > > > > > or > > > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will > take > > > > place, > > > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s > > query > > > > reg > > > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > > > priority > > > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > > > materialistc > > > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally > > materialistic, > > > > > people > > > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to > > provide > > > > > them > > > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > > > astrology > > > > > can > > > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual > > emanicipation > > > > and > > > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > > > jyotish > > > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to > the > > > > yokes > > > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out > > side > > > > the > > > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > > > doing > > > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers > > to"Such > > > > > stark > > > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > about > > > > should > > > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this > > change > > > > over > > > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for > > jyotish > > > > to > > > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to > be > > > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > > > body > > > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from > applications.where > > > as > > > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > > > interest > > > > in > > > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is > the > > > base > > > > > for > > > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > > > important > > > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend > to > > > > > operate > > > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though > endured > > > but > > > > > not > > > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult > perspective > > to > > > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result > from > > > > > animal > > > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but > not > > > for > > > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and > politics > > > > could > > > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > > > concerns > > > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > > > chasing > > > > > > lagoons. > > > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has > to > > > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness > > but > > > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > > > specifics? > > > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and > races > > > > > mutate > > > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > > > transcend > > > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very > > different > > > > > view > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > > > associated > > > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to > understand > > > the > > > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps > an > > > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > > > including > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and > some > > > sort > > > > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us > > and > > > > > this > > > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both > are > > > > > > possible > > > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish > and > > > its > > > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the > > aid > > > > of > > > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does > jyotish > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > > > (us!) > > > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not > > just > > > in > > > > > > some > > > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > > > tangible > > > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, > occupation, > > > > > > education, > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: > > natures, > > > > > one's > > > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > > > surmised > > > > > > and > > > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or > > not, > > > > how > > > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last > > birth, > > > > what > > > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in > > my > > > > last > > > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > > > Jyotishis, > > > > > > if > > > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy > to > > > > > figure > > > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > > > obvious, > > > > > so > > > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > > > ambiguity: > > > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > > > doubted > > > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as > > they > > > > say > > > > > in > > > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation > would > > > be: > > > > I > > > > > > can > > > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > > > gender, > > > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > > > political > > > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > > > some > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that > > we > > > > have > > > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > > AND > > > > > RELISH > > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > > of > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > AND > > > > RELISH > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? 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Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 dear friend shantalaji having understood your bitter experiences, kindly give me an opportunity to serve you absolutely freely both in the group or in private. not to show what i am, i have little divine energy with which i perform miracles in bringing things which are not written in the chart which is why i call myself a healer first and an astrologer second. all will of god. having said the above, i request all querents to understand this fundamental principle. god is within and not elsewhere outside. if you realise and align, you are god. also planets are meaningless if you are a realised person as you would then come to know that your future is in your hands. astrology is just one of the predictive sciences this holy land gave us and there are many more divine sciences through which people are getting benefited time immemorial. with best wishes arjun , "shantala_pandit" <shantala_pandit wrote: > > Respected Arjunji, > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on jyotish/jyotishis, > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally hurt > sopme strong sentiments here. > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with this > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > anything. > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who want > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I have > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in and > given money to.. > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my perception > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets agree > to disagree and close it at that. > > with regards, > Shantala. > > > > , "panditarjun2004" > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > dear friends > > > > as you are all aware, shantalaji first raised a question of > > astrologers not following a system. in the subsequent mail > > shantalaji posted it positively by saying her queries are an > attempt > > to make the astrology a more robust and more working science. if > > this is the true intention, where from the "accountability" > question > > was put up for free reading astrologers in this august group, nay, > > the next mail questions the "commitment" of these free reading > > astrologers. then comes the criticism on astrologers not giving > > receipts for the fees received. then comes playing a "critic" > role > > and eulogising the role of a critic doing a free service. if this > > is to continue, the next query would be to brand all answering > > astrologers as incapable and then the querent's ego is served by > > throwing eggs on all noble astrologers. can the critic ask > > him/herself as to what contribution he/she has given instead of > > criticising the free givers. > > > > with best wishes > > arjun > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > I think personal attributes to astrologers and statements > > like: "astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > > > doctors who never feel bad" are not good for any pallet > > > Code of conduct for the seekers having problems and the soothe > > sayer willing to devite time are essential .Neevr it can be one > > sided. > > > Secondly giving answers,calrifying issues is no doubt service > > and to what extent with how much honesty on either side.The group > > and the site is basically to do as much as it can.Certainly not at > > the cost of basic decency. > > > My experience shows,members are never satisfied with the > advices > > even after consulting variety of Astrologers still find that they > > are not satisfied with what they are experiencing.In all such > > conditions is to allege that jyotish is not scientific and > jyotishis > > are bad.The scales being used for measuring the strength of > jyotish > > as well as jyotishis becomes lopsideds and is only to humiliate > the > > people involved. > > > For jyotish to be achieving the goals and jyotish to do their > > job well statement of facts,sincerity in addressing problems and > > faith are primary requisites.In most of the occassions querants > pass > > judgements to fulfil their own pleasures.Infact the group is > > approached to test credentials but never to resolve the issues. > > > If what is intended as an organsied attempt to come up:the > > approach has to be simple and staight forward and the environment > is > > of sharing. > > > Infact I was always concerned with now and here situations > which > > leads to "jyotish scene in flux" > > > Astrology,a natural study of cosmic effects has no doubt has > to > > gear up with "multiple > > > variables being tossed around,".These issues can be put in order > > with a close perspect and effort to see" the dust has yet to > > settle"is veru much possible.her mutual interest ahve to > > synchronise "a bit"but not as a driver and driven to go around > > > Before any such organized attempt could be contemplated like > > minded people have to come together and note down the issues and > > come up through analytical and practical methods.This would be > > possible (as you suggest)when you are ready to look through plai > > glasses. > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > Shantala ji, > > > > > > You raise some very good points, and some practical and some > > > impractical suggestions :-) > > > > > > If astrologers are so egoistic (some interpret that as being > > > defensive and insecure, as in taking up challenges like that) > kind > > > of like medical doctors were at one point in time many years ago > > > when a second opinion was not as easily accepted. I have > > experienced > > > that generation of doctors so I speak from first hand > experience! > > > The modern astrologers, particularly the younger generation (20- > > 40) > > > are more tolerant and aware of the shortcomings and also because > > > many of these are otherwise professionals, are gainfully > employed > > > and productive even outside of astrological area of expertise, > > have > > > strong educational background (and not just in karmakand and > other > > > priestly skills -- not that that is a disqualification of any > > sort) > > > and therefore less likely to have an axe to grind. > Unfortunately, > > > most of them do not have too much time to really build a strong > > > castle for astrology. The astrology professionals, earning a > > living > > > from astrology, are capable but must work hard at astrology to > > keep > > > the lamp burning and so also have no time. > > > > > > That is the impractical part! Long ago, some 20 years ago, > western > > > tropical astrologers had many such attempts at quizzes and blind > > > testing, like in the Hamilton Project and several others > recorded > > in > > > Nias and Eysenck's masterful presentation (Astrology science or > > > superstition). With the jyotish scene in flux with multiple > > > variables being tossed around, the dust has yet to settle a bit > > > before such an organized attempt would be possible as you > suggest. > > > > > > Until then, let us all honestly and accurately record what we > see > > > and let us ask questions, even if those cause discomfort to > > someone > > > essentially good and even elderly. This would not be > disrespectful > > > in my opinion. Not asking would! > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "shantala_pandit" > > > <shantala_pandit@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > > > > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it > > all > > > > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 > members > > > on > > > > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their > > > > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this > > > birth...and > > > > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put > > on > > > > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see > > > that > > > > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > > > > > > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > > > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second > > opinion, > > > > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > > > > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can > > create > > > a > > > > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their > > predictions, > > > > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- > > > > determined period of time to see what percentage of their > > findings > > > > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and > > > tribulations > > > > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and > then > > > > decide whether other things should be within the scope of the > > > study > > > > or not. > > > > > > > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, > > their > > > > credibility as a breed would increase. > > > > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's > sentiments > > > > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman > > > frequently > > > > confused by astrologers :-) > > > > with regards, > > > > Shantala > > > > > > > > , "auromirra19" > > > > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > RRji, > > > > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit > of > > a > > > > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and > > also > > > > not > > > > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the > realms > > > > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of > > > becoming > > > > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you > > said > > > > we > > > > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to > > devote > > > > to > > > > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did > not > > > > mean > > > > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base > for > > > > later > > > > > research on water divination but it is used for water > > divination > > > > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are > > there > > > > to > > > > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been > > > spared > > > > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does > lead > > > us > > > > to > > > > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may > > > sound > > > > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > > > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply > > > going > > > > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world > > and > > > > like > > > > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said > research > > > for > > > > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others > have > > > no > > > > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > > > > applications and be happy. > > > > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the > end > > > and > > > > if > > > > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, > of > > > who > > > > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > <rrgb@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and > > Nalini) > > > > in > > > > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > > > > potential > > > > > or > > > > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of > us > > > > know. > > > > > It > > > > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there > > > might > > > > > lie > > > > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those > who > > > are > > > > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand > > at > > > > the > > > > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is > a > > > > > certain > > > > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as > > long > > > > as > > > > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is > a > > > > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding > > > about > > > > > the > > > > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- > > > research' > > > > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just > to > > be > > > > > fair > > > > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less > > knowledgeable > > > > and > > > > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > > > > raising > > > > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or > > not > > > > > easily > > > > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth > > etc), > > > > are > > > > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > > > > intrinsic > > > > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions > and > > > > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things > > such > > > as > > > > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only > > > astrology > > > > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the > > > unverifiable > > > > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > > > > confidently > > > > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these > > raises > > > > > some > > > > > > concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a > > science. > > > > But > > > > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > > > > scientists > > > > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and > demand > > > > that > > > > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that > time, > > > > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions > > > should > > > > > not > > > > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources > to > > > > > answer > > > > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can > expect > > > me > > > > to > > > > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most > > > hard- > > > > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > > > > curiosity > > > > > of > > > > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just > beyond > > > the > > > > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. > > Just > > > > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the > > Yarrow > > > > > stick > > > > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing > to > > > do > > > > > with > > > > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' > times > > > > would > > > > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to > moon. > > > > Wells, > > > > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his > famous > > > > > classic > > > > > > novel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and > > so > > > on > > > > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list > that > > > > > shrinks > > > > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > > > > refuse > > > > > to > > > > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that > > someone > > > > has > > > > > > done all the homework and validated every single > combination > > > > given > > > > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady > > > ground > > > > of > > > > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. > That > > > > sort > > > > > of > > > > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational > or > > > what > > > > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking > > > into > > > > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated > > again > > > > and > > > > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > > > > convictions, > > > > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand - > - > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > for the first time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards > experimentation > > > so > > > > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or > rigid. > > > > > However, > > > > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > > > > particularly > > > > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things > that > > > are > > > > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors > > and > > > > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- > > > whether > > > > > they > > > > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not > > mean > > > > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living > out > > of > > > > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and > > dedicated > > > > to > > > > > > serving others through it are professionals and must > > maintain > > > > the > > > > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has > > > everything > > > > to > > > > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the > > (right) > > > > > hands > > > > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has > > > great > > > > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be > > conditioned > > > > > though > > > > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or > > other > > > > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a > result > > > we > > > > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate > > objectives > > > > not > > > > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is > > not > > > > that > > > > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers > on > > > the > > > > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach > sides > > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a > > third > > > > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta > > > devatas > > > > > why > > > > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is > not > > > > some > > > > > > two > > > > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water > > and > > > > > water > > > > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can > > answer > > > > any > > > > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without > spiritual > > > > gifts > > > > > > or > > > > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will > > take > > > > > place, > > > > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s > > > query > > > > > reg > > > > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > > > > priority > > > > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > > > > materialistc > > > > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally > > > materialistic, > > > > > > people > > > > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to > > > provide > > > > > > them > > > > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > > > > astrology > > > > > > can > > > > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual > > > emanicipation > > > > > and > > > > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to > > the > > > > > yokes > > > > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out > > > side > > > > > the > > > > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi > were > > > > doing > > > > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers > > > to"Such > > > > > > stark > > > > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > about > > > > > should > > > > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this > > > change > > > > > over > > > > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for > > > jyotish > > > > > to > > > > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to > > be > > > > > > > application oriented research than to basic > research.Every > > > > body > > > > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from > > applications.where > > > > as > > > > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > > > > interest > > > > > in > > > > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is > > the > > > > base > > > > > > for > > > > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached > more > > > > > > important > > > > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend > > to > > > > > > operate > > > > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though > > endured > > > > but > > > > > > not > > > > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult > > perspective > > > to > > > > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result > > from > > > > > > animal > > > > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but > > not > > > > for > > > > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and > > politics > > > > > could > > > > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and > future.Immediate > > > > > > concerns > > > > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > > > > chasing > > > > > > > lagoons. > > > > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has > > to > > > > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be > it > > > > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited > vastness > > > but > > > > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More > on > > > > > > specifics? > > > > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and > > races > > > > > > mutate > > > > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > > > > transcend > > > > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very > > > different > > > > > > view > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of > other > > > > > > > associated > > > > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to > > understand > > > > the > > > > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, > perhaps > > an > > > > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > > > > including > > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and > > some > > > > sort > > > > > > of > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for > us > > > and > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both > > are > > > > > > > possible > > > > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish > > and > > > > its > > > > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without > the > > > aid > > > > > of > > > > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does > > jyotish > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and > students > > > > (us!) > > > > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not > > > just > > > > in > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly > and > > > > > tangible > > > > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, > > occupation, > > > > > > > education, > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: > > > natures, > > > > > > one's > > > > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, > often > > > > > surmised > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha > or > > > not, > > > > > how > > > > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last > > > birth, > > > > > what > > > > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me > in > > > my > > > > > last > > > > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > > > > Jyotishis, > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be > easy > > to > > > > > > figure > > > > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > > > > obvious, > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > > > > ambiguity: > > > > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > > > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can > be > > > > > doubted > > > > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as > > > they > > > > > say > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation > > would > > > > be: > > > > > I > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell > the > > > > > gender, > > > > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > > > > political > > > > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily > as > > > > some > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas > that > > > we > > > > > have > > > > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE > DIVINITY > > > AND > > > > > > RELISH > > > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to the > > > Terms > > > > > of > > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > > attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > > AND > > > > > RELISH > > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > > of > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? 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Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 thanks for understanding Arjunji, I only seek your blessings. with regards, Shantala. , "panditarjun2004" <panditarjun2004 wrote: > > dear friend shantalaji > > having understood your bitter experiences, kindly give me an > opportunity to serve you absolutely freely both in the group or in > private. not to show what i am, i have little divine energy with > which i perform miracles in bringing things which are not written in > the chart which is why i call myself a healer first and an > astrologer second. all will of god. > > having said the above, i request all querents to understand this > fundamental principle. god is within and not elsewhere outside. if > you realise and align, you are god. also planets are meaningless if > you are a realised person as you would then come to know that your > future is in your hands. astrology is just one of the predictive > sciences this holy land gave us and there are many more divine > sciences through which people are getting benefited time immemorial. > > with best wishes > arjun > > , "shantala_pandit" > <shantala_pandit@> wrote: > > > > Respected Arjunji, > > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on > jyotish/jyotishis, > > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone > > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally > hurt > > sopme strong sentiments here. > > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with > this > > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > > anything. > > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who want > > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I have > > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in and > > given money to.. > > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my > perception > > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets > agree > > to disagree and close it at that. > > > > with regards, > > Shantala. > > > > > > > > , "panditarjun2004" > > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > as you are all aware, shantalaji first raised a question of > > > astrologers not following a system. in the subsequent mail > > > shantalaji posted it positively by saying her queries are an > > attempt > > > to make the astrology a more robust and more working science. > if > > > this is the true intention, where from the "accountability" > > question > > > was put up for free reading astrologers in this august group, > nay, > > > the next mail questions the "commitment" of these free reading > > > astrologers. then comes the criticism on astrologers not giving > > > receipts for the fees received. then comes playing a "critic" > > role > > > and eulogising the role of a critic doing a free service. if > this > > > is to continue, the next query would be to brand all answering > > > astrologers as incapable and then the querent's ego is served by > > > throwing eggs on all noble astrologers. can the critic ask > > > him/herself as to what contribution he/she has given instead of > > > criticising the free givers. > > > > > > with best wishes > > > arjun > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > I think personal attributes to astrologers and statements > > > like: "astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > > > > doctors who never feel bad" are not good for any pallet > > > > Code of conduct for the seekers having problems and the > soothe > > > sayer willing to devite time are essential .Neevr it can be one > > > sided. > > > > Secondly giving answers,calrifying issues is no doubt > service > > > and to what extent with how much honesty on either side.The > group > > > and the site is basically to do as much as it can.Certainly not > at > > > the cost of basic decency. > > > > My experience shows,members are never satisfied with the > > advices > > > even after consulting variety of Astrologers still find that > they > > > are not satisfied with what they are experiencing.In all such > > > conditions is to allege that jyotish is not scientific and > > jyotishis > > > are bad.The scales being used for measuring the strength of > > jyotish > > > as well as jyotishis becomes lopsideds and is only to humiliate > > the > > > people involved. > > > > For jyotish to be achieving the goals and jyotish to do > their > > > job well statement of facts,sincerity in addressing problems and > > > faith are primary requisites.In most of the occassions querants > > pass > > > judgements to fulfil their own pleasures.Infact the group is > > > approached to test credentials but never to resolve the issues. > > > > If what is intended as an organsied attempt to come up:the > > > approach has to be simple and staight forward and the > environment > > is > > > of sharing. > > > > Infact I was always concerned with now and here situations > > which > > > leads to "jyotish scene in flux" > > > > Astrology,a natural study of cosmic effects has no doubt has > > to > > > gear up with "multiple > > > > variables being tossed around,".These issues can be put in > order > > > with a close perspect and effort to see" the dust has yet to > > > settle"is veru much possible.her mutual interest ahve to > > > synchronise "a bit"but not as a driver and driven to go around > > > > Before any such organized attempt could be contemplated like > > > minded people have to come together and note down the issues and > > > come up through analytical and practical methods.This would be > > > possible (as you suggest)when you are ready to look through plai > > > glasses. > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > Shantala ji, > > > > > > > > You raise some very good points, and some practical and some > > > > impractical suggestions :-) > > > > > > > > If astrologers are so egoistic (some interpret that as being > > > > defensive and insecure, as in taking up challenges like that) > > kind > > > > of like medical doctors were at one point in time many years > ago > > > > when a second opinion was not as easily accepted. I have > > > experienced > > > > that generation of doctors so I speak from first hand > > experience! > > > > The modern astrologers, particularly the younger generation > (20- > > > 40) > > > > are more tolerant and aware of the shortcomings and also > because > > > > many of these are otherwise professionals, are gainfully > > employed > > > > and productive even outside of astrological area of expertise, > > > have > > > > strong educational background (and not just in karmakand and > > other > > > > priestly skills -- not that that is a disqualification of any > > > sort) > > > > and therefore less likely to have an axe to grind. > > Unfortunately, > > > > most of them do not have too much time to really build a > strong > > > > castle for astrology. The astrology professionals, earning a > > > living > > > > from astrology, are capable but must work hard at astrology to > > > keep > > > > the lamp burning and so also have no time. > > > > > > > > That is the impractical part! Long ago, some 20 years ago, > > western > > > > tropical astrologers had many such attempts at quizzes and > blind > > > > testing, like in the Hamilton Project and several others > > recorded > > > in > > > > Nias and Eysenck's masterful presentation (Astrology science > or > > > > superstition). With the jyotish scene in flux with multiple > > > > variables being tossed around, the dust has yet to settle a > bit > > > > before such an organized attempt would be possible as you > > suggest. > > > > > > > > Until then, let us all honestly and accurately record what we > > see > > > > and let us ask questions, even if those cause discomfort to > > > someone > > > > essentially good and even elderly. This would not be > > disrespectful > > > > in my opinion. Not asking would! > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "shantala_pandit" > > > > <shantala_pandit@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > > > > > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify > it > > > all > > > > > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 > > members > > > > on > > > > > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to > their > > > > > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this > > > > birth...and > > > > > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be > put > > > on > > > > > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to > see > > > > that > > > > > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > > > > > > > > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities > unlike > > > > > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second > > > opinion, > > > > > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > > > > > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can > > > create > > > > a > > > > > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their > > > predictions, > > > > > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a > pre- > > > > > determined period of time to see what percentage of their > > > findings > > > > > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and > > > > tribulations > > > > > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and > > then > > > > > decide whether other things should be within the scope of > the > > > > study > > > > > or not. > > > > > > > > > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, > > > their > > > > > credibility as a breed would increase. > > > > > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's > > sentiments > > > > > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman > > > > frequently > > > > > confused by astrologers :-) > > > > > with regards, > > > > > Shantala > > > > > > > > > > , "auromirra19" > > > > > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > RRji, > > > > > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true > spirit > > of > > > a > > > > > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings > and > > > also > > > > > not > > > > > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the > > realms > > > > > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of > > > > becoming > > > > > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as > you > > > said > > > > > we > > > > > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to > > > devote > > > > > to > > > > > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did > > not > > > > > mean > > > > > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base > > for > > > > > later > > > > > > research on water divination but it is used for water > > > divination > > > > > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are > > > there > > > > > to > > > > > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been > > > > spared > > > > > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does > > lead > > > > us > > > > > to > > > > > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance > may > > > > sound > > > > > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to > ask > > > > > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is > simply > > > > going > > > > > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the > world > > > and > > > > > like > > > > > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said > > research > > > > for > > > > > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others > > have > > > > no > > > > > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > > > > > applications and be happy. > > > > > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the > > end > > > > and > > > > > if > > > > > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, > > of > > > > who > > > > > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > <rrgb@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and > > > Nalini) > > > > > in > > > > > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > > > > > potential > > > > > > or > > > > > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of > > us > > > > > know. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, > there > > > > might > > > > > > lie > > > > > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those > > who > > > > are > > > > > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with > sand > > > at > > > > > the > > > > > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there > is > > a > > > > > > certain > > > > > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and > as > > > long > > > > > as > > > > > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it > is > > a > > > > > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes > misunderstanding > > > > about > > > > > > the > > > > > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- > > > > research' > > > > > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just > > to > > > be > > > > > > fair > > > > > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less > > > knowledgeable > > > > > and > > > > > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies > or > > > > > raising > > > > > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established > or > > > not > > > > > > easily > > > > > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth > > > etc), > > > > > are > > > > > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to > their > > > > > > intrinsic > > > > > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions > > and > > > > > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things > > > such > > > > as > > > > > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be > reliably > > > > > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only > > > > astrology > > > > > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the > > > > unverifiable > > > > > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > > > > > confidently > > > > > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these > > > raises > > > > > > some > > > > > > > concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a > > > science. > > > > > But > > > > > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > > > > > scientists > > > > > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and > > demand > > > > > that > > > > > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that > > time, > > > > > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the > questions > > > > should > > > > > > not > > > > > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and > resources > > to > > > > > > answer > > > > > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can > > expect > > > > me > > > > > to > > > > > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the > most > > > > hard- > > > > > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > > > > > curiosity > > > > > > of > > > > > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just > > beyond > > > > the > > > > > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. > > > Just > > > > > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the > > > Yarrow > > > > > > stick > > > > > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having > nothing > > to > > > > do > > > > > > with > > > > > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' > > times > > > > > would > > > > > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to > > moon. > > > > > Wells, > > > > > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his > > famous > > > > > > classic > > > > > > > novel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty > and > > > so > > > > on > > > > > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list > > that > > > > > > shrinks > > > > > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required - - > I > > > > > refuse > > > > > > to > > > > > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that > > > someone > > > > > has > > > > > > > done all the homework and validated every single > > combination > > > > > given > > > > > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady > > > > ground > > > > > of > > > > > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. > > That > > > > > sort > > > > > > of > > > > > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational > > or > > > > what > > > > > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or > walking > > > > into > > > > > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated > > > again > > > > > and > > > > > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > > > > > convictions, > > > > > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with > sand - > > - > > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > > for the first time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards > > experimentation > > > > so > > > > > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or > > rigid. > > > > > > However, > > > > > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > > > > > particularly > > > > > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things > > that > > > > are > > > > > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As > advisors > > > and > > > > > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- > > > > whether > > > > > > they > > > > > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does > not > > > mean > > > > > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living > > out > > > of > > > > > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and > > > dedicated > > > > > to > > > > > > > serving others through it are professionals and must > > > maintain > > > > > the > > > > > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has > > > > everything > > > > > to > > > > > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the > > > (right) > > > > > > hands > > > > > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic > has > > > > great > > > > > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any > other > > > > > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be > > > conditioned > > > > > > though > > > > > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or > > > other > > > > > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a > > result > > > > we > > > > > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate > > > objectives > > > > > not > > > > > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It > is > > > not > > > > > that > > > > > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure > seekers > > on > > > > the > > > > > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach > > sides > > > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a > > > third > > > > > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta > > > > devatas > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is > > not > > > > > some > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of > water > > > and > > > > > > water > > > > > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can > > > answer > > > > > any > > > > > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without > > spiritual > > > > > gifts > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will > > > take > > > > > > place, > > > > > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to > another`s > > > > query > > > > > > reg > > > > > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter > of > > > > > > priority > > > > > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > > > > > materialistc > > > > > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally > > > > materialistic, > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to > > > > provide > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual > > > > emanicipation > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? > Does > > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves > to > > > the > > > > > > yokes > > > > > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think > out > > > > side > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi > > were > > > > > doing > > > > > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem > krishnan > > > > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers > > > > to"Such > > > > > > > stark > > > > > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > > about > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this > > > > change > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for > > > > jyotish > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend > to > > > be > > > > > > > > application oriented research than to basic > > research.Every > > > > > body > > > > > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from > > > applications.where > > > > > as > > > > > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground > work.Rulers > > > > > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > > > > > interest > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity > is > > > the > > > > > base > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached > > more > > > > > > > important > > > > > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations > tend > > > to > > > > > > > operate > > > > > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though > > > endured > > > > > but > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult > > > perspective > > > > to > > > > > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a > result > > > from > > > > > > > animal > > > > > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes > but > > > not > > > > > for > > > > > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of > life. > > > > > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and > > > politics > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and > > future.Immediate > > > > > > > concerns > > > > > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but > for > > > > > chasing > > > > > > > > lagoons. > > > > > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore > has > > > to > > > > > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects > be > > it > > > > > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous > realities. > > > > > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited > > vastness > > > > but > > > > > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan > perspectives.More > > on > > > > > > > specifics? > > > > > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it > a > > > > > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things > immediate > > > > > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and > > > races > > > > > > > mutate > > > > > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > > > > > transcend > > > > > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very > > > > different > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of > > other > > > > > > > > associated > > > > > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to > > > understand > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, > > perhaps > > > an > > > > > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > > > > > including > > > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and > > > some > > > > > sort > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan > for > > us > > > > and > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that > both > > > are > > > > > > > > possible > > > > > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for > jyotish > > > and > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without > > the > > > > aid > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does > > > jyotish > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and > > students > > > > > (us!) > > > > > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and > not > > > > just > > > > > in > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly > > and > > > > > > tangible > > > > > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, > > > occupation, > > > > > > > > education, > > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: > > > > natures, > > > > > > > one's > > > > > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, > > often > > > > > > surmised > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha > > or > > > > not, > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last > > > > birth, > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to > me > > in > > > > my > > > > > > last > > > > > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be > reborn? > > > > > > Jyotishis, > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be > > easy > > > to > > > > > > > figure > > > > > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things > so > > > > > obvious, > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > > > > > ambiguity: > > > > > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > > > > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly > can > > be > > > > > > doubted > > > > > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, > as > > > > they > > > > > > say > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation > > > would > > > > > be: > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell > > the > > > > > > gender, > > > > > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, > and > > > > > > political > > > > > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as > easily > > as > > > > > some > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas > > that > > > > we > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE > > DIVINITY > > > > AND > > > > > > > RELISH > > > > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free > vedic > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To from this group, send an email to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to the > > > > > Terms > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > > > attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE > DIVINITY > > > AND > > > > > > RELISH > > > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to the > > > Terms > > > > > of > > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at > > Autos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, > & > > > more on new and used cars. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hi Shantala It seems strange to read even theis apology as it more mechanical response to replies u've got in return for ur outbursts. IT WILL BE BETTER U PUT FORTH UR QUESTIONS AND OR THE CHARTS U DISCUSSED AND WHAT U GOT OFF THE CHEATERS AS U CLAIM I AM SURE PEOPLE WIL THROW ENUF LITE ON THE quality of the people u visited not talking about their reputation ofcourse, there is one in Madras who charges 37 per sitting. and has a quee, i know for sure he is no good.can talk bombasticaly, even the one the media goes and writes a lot the fat man from Mumbai.he know snothing useful. every filed has it sets of good people bad ones, quacks worse, so do we decry the filed or the individual medicinehas so far found cure for only 26 ailments rest r only suppressents only. for the symptoms not the disease will u stop going to a doctor and condem the medical freternaty. WHY MODERN MEDICINE HAS FAILED IS IT HAS ALWAYS FOCUSED ON SYMPTOMS NOT ON THE DISEASE. JAPAN raks the 1st in medical care as for diagnosis it uses modern tech. for treatment it uses the traditional path which treats the person not the diease. say head aches are caused 1 by weather 2 by exertion 3 emotional levels 4 in controlling an emotional situation-indignation. 5. eye disorders and so on alternate medicine, ayurveda, chineese, tibetian , homeo treat it that way 6. in reaction to some food. 7. BP levles. allopathy treats the pain alone. common cold still is not curable by allppathy as it is also caused by some of the factors above apart for allergies to dust, pollens etc I AM SURE SOME COMMERCIAL ASTRLOGERS HAVE MADE UR LFIE BAD but how does the subject become bad.. please read my mail on the possiblities, potential, LIMITS of astrology/astrologers I have pasted it y'day. as briefed to a western client 14 yrs ago some have asked to adjustt he space and re-post it will do it again ANY SUBJECT /TOOL is as good as the end user. and the ones to check out on its use is entirely ours. while buying amatka people tap for teh sound, or a saree and check a few times do they show same thinking while investing with fly by night Nidhi or chit funds or hi intrest promisers no. can we blame banking no our ouwn greed, anziety or copy cat syndrome max. Prashant 9840051861 shantala_pandit <shantala_pandit wrote: Respected Arjunji, since you are feeling so bad about my comments on jyotish/jyotishis, let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally hurt sopme strong sentiments here. Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with this group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked anything. Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who want free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I have had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in and given money to.. I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my perception of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets agree to disagree and close it at that. with regards, Shantala. Prashant Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Hi friends, RRji's mention of veiled humility, mock humility comes to my mind. Is it right to generalise a professional breed per se based on one's experience with them. I too have had a very bitter experience with an astrologer, an experience which at a point in time that mattered, changed the course of my life,. but it was that person responsible and not astrology, well if we are cross roads ask for advice there are so many well meaning people around trying to help , may be all of them may not have the right advice unless of course this particular gentleman who relished doing it. Then there was this astrologer in chennai, who charged not a rupee from people genuinely needy, the poor and had a basic charge for the affluent. Well he paid his taxes , filed his returns citing his profession as a astrologer. He sought my advice regarding his eligibility for a housing loan. Then coming to the medical community, I went for a secong opinion to a doctor in one of the well known corporate hospitals in CHennai. I had already gone to her earlier, before the disease made its presence felt, with all my symptoms only to be told that I probably suffered from Clinical depression? she said I had a very bizarre presentation of symptoms.when I went back to her, an year later, after a preliminary diagnosis, she complained as to what I wanted now from her? She told me that it was a mess( looking at my xrays, prescriptions etc) and that when people come midway the doctor is the one to have to deal with the mess. A patient - a mess? what ethics are those? She was the pulmonologist, she could have put the symptoms together got nearer the truth earlier. She charged a consultation and gave me the holy receipt? what for ? what would i do with that? any more than what I did with the astro guidance i was subjected to?( I had no option and did not voluntarily seek it mind u) she also went further and told me that I just was not up to any procedure to find out my disease and said any way what was it worth for? I already had two badly damaged lungs not worth repair etc. How soothing? Well can I condemn the medical fraternity? And here was my doctor(in India) who had advised me to take a second oipnion for a biopsy, and also offered to give some discount coupons for ultrasounds(, he knew how much I had frittered away on clueless diagnosts), and a lot of hope. Well here I am. my lungs are improving I dont know how but I feel a lot better. Prashant made a mention of various nidhi companies in Chennai, which went bust, all of them gave a gold coin, meteoric interest rates and fancy deposit certificates, receipts what are they worth now? not their weight in paper. There are conmen everywhere, they are not limited to a single profession and if we let our bitter experiences cloud our judgement we may lose out on the most beautiful truths that life could offer. Shantala ji, drain out the bitterness and find out how sweet life could be. And finally to receive is not a disgrace, it is Grace. regards Nalini "WHEN FACED WITH A HARDSHIP THINK OF IT AS A GRACE IT BECOMES ONE" - In , Prashant Kumar G B <gbp_kumar wrote: > > Hi Shantala > > It seems strange to read even theis apology as it more mechanical response to replies u've got in return for ur outbursts. > > IT WILL BE BETTER U PUT FORTH UR QUESTIONS AND OR THE CHARTS U DISCUSSED AND WHAT U GOT OFF THE CHEATERS AS U CLAIM I AM SURE PEOPLE WIL THROW ENUF LITE ON THE quality of the people u visited not talking about their reputation ofcourse, there is one in Madras who charges 37 per sitting. and has a quee, i know for sure he is no good.can talk bombasticaly, even the one the media goes and writes a lot the fat man from Mumbai.he know snothing useful. > > > every filed has it sets of good people bad ones, quacks worse, so do we decry the filed or the individual > medicinehas so far found cure for only 26 ailments rest r only suppressents only. for the symptoms not the disease will u stop going to a doctor and condem the medical freternaty. > > WHY MODERN MEDICINE HAS FAILED IS IT HAS ALWAYS FOCUSED ON SYMPTOMS NOT ON THE DISEASE. > > JAPAN raks the 1st in medical care as for diagnosis it uses modern tech. for treatment it uses the traditional path which treats the person not the diease. > > say head aches are caused > 1 by weather > 2 by exertion > 3 emotional levels > 4 in controlling an emotional situation-indignation. > 5. eye disorders and so on alternate medicine, ayurveda, chineese, tibetian , homeo treat it that way > 6. in reaction to some food. > 7. BP levles. > allopathy treats the pain alone. > > common cold still is not curable by allppathy as > > it is also caused by some of the factors above apart for allergies to dust, pollens etc > > I AM SURE SOME COMMERCIAL ASTRLOGERS HAVE MADE UR LFIE BAD but how does the subject become bad.. > > please read my mail on the possiblities, potential, LIMITS of astrology/astrologers I have pasted it y'day. > > as briefed to a western client 14 yrs ago > some have asked to adjustt he space and re-post it will do it again > > ANY SUBJECT /TOOL is as good as the end user. and the ones to check out on its use is entirely ours. > > while buying amatka people tap for teh sound, or a saree and check a few times do they show same thinking while investing with fly by night Nidhi or chit funds or hi intrest promisers no. can we blame banking no our ouwn greed, anziety or copy cat syndrome max. > > Prashant > 9840051861 > > > > > > shantala_pandit <shantala_pandit wrote: Respected Arjunji, > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on jyotish/jyotishis, > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally hurt > sopme strong sentiments here. > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with this > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > anything. > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who want > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I have > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in and > given money to.. > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my perception > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets agree > to disagree and close it at that. > > with regards, > Shantala. > > > > Prashant > > > Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Hi friends, RRji's mention of veiled humility, mock humility comes to my mind. Is it right to generalise a professional breed per se based on one's experience with them. I too have had a very bitter experience with an astrologer, an experience which at a point in time that mattered, changed the course of my life,. but it was that person responsible and not astrology, well if we are cross roads ask for advice there are so many well meaning people around trying to help , may be all of them may not have the right advice unless of course this particular gentleman who relished doing it. Then there was this astrologer in chennai, who charged not a rupee from people genuinely needy, the poor and had a basic charge for the affluent. Well he paid his taxes , filed his returns citing his profession as a astrologer. He sought my advice regarding his eligibility for a housing loan. Then coming to the medical community, I went for a secong opinion to a doctor in one of the well known corporate hospitals in CHennai. I had already gone to her earlier, before the disease made its presence felt, with all my symptoms only to be told that I probably suffered from Clinical depression? she said I had a very bizarre presentation of symptoms.when I went back to her, an year later, after a preliminary diagnosis, she complained as to what I wanted now from her? She told me that it was a mess( looking at my xrays, prescriptions etc) and that when people come midway the doctor is the one to have to deal with the mess. A patient - a mess? what ethics are those? She was the pulmonologist, she could have put the symptoms together got nearer the truth earlier. She charged a consultation and gave me the holy receipt? what for ? what would i do with that? any more than what I did with the astro guidance i was subjected to?( I had no option and did not voluntarily seek it mind u) she also went further and told me that I just was not up to any procedure to find out my disease and said any way what was it worth for? I already had two badly damaged lungs not worth repair etc. How soothing? Well can I condemn the medical fraternity? And here was my doctor(in India) who had advised me to take a second oipnion for a biopsy, and also offered to give some discount coupons for ultrasounds(, he knew how much I had frittered away on clueless diagnosts), and a lot of hope. Well here I am. my lungs are improving I dont know how but I feel a lot better. Prashant made a mention of various nidhi companies in Chennai, which went bust, all of them gave a gold coin, meteoric interest rates and fancy deposit certificates, receipts what are they worth now? not their weight in paper. There are conmen everywhere, they are not limited to a single profession and if we let our bitter experiences cloud our judgement we may lose out on the most beautiful truths that life could offer. Shantala ji, drain out the bitterness and find out how sweet life could be. And finally to receive is not a disgrace, it is Grace. regards Nalini "WHEN FACED WITH A HARDSHIP THINK OF IT AS A GRACE IT BECOMES ONE" - In , Prashant Kumar G B <gbp_kumar wrote: > > Hi Shantala > > It seems strange to read even theis apology as it more mechanical response to replies u've got in return for ur outbursts. > > IT WILL BE BETTER U PUT FORTH UR QUESTIONS AND OR THE CHARTS U DISCUSSED AND WHAT U GOT OFF THE CHEATERS AS U CLAIM I AM SURE PEOPLE WIL THROW ENUF LITE ON THE quality of the people u visited not talking about their reputation ofcourse, there is one in Madras who charges 37 per sitting. and has a quee, i know for sure he is no good.can talk bombasticaly, even the one the media goes and writes a lot the fat man from Mumbai.he know snothing useful. > > > every filed has it sets of good people bad ones, quacks worse, so do we decry the filed or the individual > medicinehas so far found cure for only 26 ailments rest r only suppressents only. for the symptoms not the disease will u stop going to a doctor and condem the medical freternaty. > > WHY MODERN MEDICINE HAS FAILED IS IT HAS ALWAYS FOCUSED ON SYMPTOMS NOT ON THE DISEASE. > > JAPAN raks the 1st in medical care as for diagnosis it uses modern tech. for treatment it uses the traditional path which treats the person not the diease. > > say head aches are caused > 1 by weather > 2 by exertion > 3 emotional levels > 4 in controlling an emotional situation-indignation. > 5. eye disorders and so on alternate medicine, ayurveda, chineese, tibetian , homeo treat it that way > 6. in reaction to some food. > 7. BP levles. > allopathy treats the pain alone. > > common cold still is not curable by allppathy as > > it is also caused by some of the factors above apart for allergies to dust, pollens etc > > I AM SURE SOME COMMERCIAL ASTRLOGERS HAVE MADE UR LFIE BAD but how does the subject become bad.. > > please read my mail on the possiblities, potential, LIMITS of astrology/astrologers I have pasted it y'day. > > as briefed to a western client 14 yrs ago > some have asked to adjustt he space and re-post it will do it again > > ANY SUBJECT /TOOL is as good as the end user. and the ones to check out on its use is entirely ours. > > while buying amatka people tap for teh sound, or a saree and check a few times do they show same thinking while investing with fly by night Nidhi or chit funds or hi intrest promisers no. can we blame banking no our ouwn greed, anziety or copy cat syndrome max. > > Prashant > 9840051861 > > > > > > shantala_pandit <shantala_pandit wrote: Respected Arjunji, > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on jyotish/jyotishis, > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally hurt > sopme strong sentiments here. > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with this > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > anything. > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who want > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I have > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in and > given money to.. > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my perception > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets agree > to disagree and close it at that. > > with regards, > Shantala. > > > > Prashant > > > Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Arre baba, I am not against astrology, wouldn't be here otherwise, right? like you said some people are good at their job some are not be it astrologers or doctors or any other profession.. and nobody can say without having gone through it, correct? Guess I was unlucky to consult the wrong astrologer. for now, I can live with my uncertainities. Is it wrong to suggest something to make things better? I wonder. I guess you all are satisfied with the way things are, well, so be it! I am in the IT field, and we keep trying to make our software better, come up with new features to serve our customers better.. we develop test cases to make sure our programs don't crash if there is a bug. I was trying to apply the same principle here (make it robust, consistent, accountability for performance) which completely backfired! if there are no takers, it must be a bad idea! with regards, Shantala , "auromirra19" <nalini2818 wrote: > > Hi friends, > > RRji's mention of veiled humility, mock humility comes to my mind. > Is it right to generalise a professional breed per se based on one's > experience with them. I too have had a very bitter experience with > an astrologer, an experience which at a point in time that > mattered, changed the course of my life,. but it was that person > responsible and not astrology, well if we are cross roads ask for > advice there are so many well meaning people around trying to help , > may be all of them may not have the right advice unless of course > this particular gentleman who relished doing it. > Then there was this astrologer in chennai, who charged not a rupee > from people genuinely needy, the poor and had a basic charge for the > affluent. Well he paid his taxes , filed his returns citing his > profession as a astrologer. He sought my advice regarding his > eligibility for a housing loan. > Then coming to the medical community, I went for a secong opinion > to a doctor in one of the well known corporate hospitals in CHennai. > I had already gone to her earlier, before the disease made its > presence felt, with all my symptoms only to be told that I probably > suffered from Clinical depression? she said I had a very bizarre > presentation of symptoms.when I went back to her, an year later, > after a preliminary diagnosis, she complained as to what I wanted > now from her? She told me that it was a mess( looking at my xrays, > prescriptions etc) and that when people come midway the doctor is > the one to have to deal with the mess. A patient - a mess? what > ethics are those? She was the pulmonologist, she could have put the > symptoms together got nearer the truth earlier. She charged a > consultation and gave me the holy receipt? what for ? what would i > do with that? any more than what I did with the astro guidance i was > subjected to?( I had no option and did not voluntarily seek it mind > u) she also went further and told me that I just was not up to any > procedure to find out my disease and said any way what was it worth > for? I already had two badly damaged lungs not worth repair etc. How > soothing? Well can I condemn the medical fraternity? > And here was my doctor(in India) who had advised me to take a > second oipnion for a biopsy, and also offered to give some discount > coupons for ultrasounds(, he knew how much I had frittered away on > clueless diagnosts), and a lot of hope. Well here I am. my lungs are > improving I dont know how but I feel a lot better. Prashant made a > mention of various nidhi companies in Chennai, which went bust, all > of them gave a gold coin, meteoric interest rates and fancy deposit > certificates, receipts what are they worth now? not their weight in > paper. > There are conmen everywhere, they are not limited to a single > profession and if we let our bitter experiences cloud our judgement > we may lose out on the most beautiful truths that life could offer. > Shantala ji, drain out the bitterness and find out how sweet life > could be. > And finally to receive is not a disgrace, it is Grace. > regards > Nalini > > "WHEN FACED WITH A HARDSHIP THINK OF IT AS A GRACE IT BECOMES ONE" - In , Prashant Kumar G B > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > Hi Shantala > > > > It seems strange to read even theis apology as it more > mechanical response to replies u've got in return for ur outbursts. > > > > IT WILL BE BETTER U PUT FORTH UR QUESTIONS AND OR THE CHARTS U > DISCUSSED AND WHAT U GOT OFF THE CHEATERS AS U CLAIM I AM SURE > PEOPLE WIL THROW ENUF LITE ON THE quality of the people u visited > not talking about their reputation ofcourse, there is one in Madras > who charges 37 per sitting. and has a quee, i know for sure he is > no good.can talk bombasticaly, even the one the media goes and > writes a lot the fat man from Mumbai.he know snothing useful. > > > > > > every filed has it sets of good people bad ones, quacks worse, > so do we decry the filed or the individual > > medicinehas so far found cure for only 26 ailments rest r only > suppressents only. for the symptoms not the disease will u stop > going to a doctor and condem the medical freternaty. > > > > WHY MODERN MEDICINE HAS FAILED IS IT HAS ALWAYS FOCUSED ON > SYMPTOMS NOT ON THE DISEASE. > > > > JAPAN raks the 1st in medical care as for diagnosis it uses > modern tech. for treatment it uses the traditional path which > treats the person not the diease. > > > > say head aches are caused > > 1 by weather > > 2 by exertion > > 3 emotional levels > > 4 in controlling an emotional situation-indignation. > > 5. eye disorders and so on alternate medicine, ayurveda, > chineese, tibetian , homeo treat it that way > > 6. in reaction to some food. > > 7. BP levles. > > allopathy treats the pain alone. > > > > common cold still is not curable by allppathy as > > > > it is also caused by some of the factors above apart for > allergies to dust, pollens etc > > > > I AM SURE SOME COMMERCIAL ASTRLOGERS HAVE MADE UR LFIE BAD but > how does the subject become bad.. > > > > please read my mail on the possiblities, potential, LIMITS of > astrology/astrologers I have pasted it y'day. > > > > as briefed to a western client 14 yrs ago > > some have asked to adjustt he space and re-post it will do it > again > > > > ANY SUBJECT /TOOL is as good as the end user. and the ones to > check out on its use is entirely ours. > > > > while buying amatka people tap for teh sound, or a saree and > check a few times do they show same thinking while investing with > fly by night Nidhi or chit funds or hi intrest promisers no. can we > blame banking no our ouwn greed, anziety or copy cat syndrome max. > > > > Prashant > > 9840051861 > > > > > > > > > > > > shantala_pandit <shantala_pandit@> wrote: Respected > Arjunji, > > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on > jyotish/jyotishis, > > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and > anyone > > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally > hurt > > sopme strong sentiments here. > > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with > this > > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > > anything. > > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who > want > > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I > have > > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in > and > > given money to.. > > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my > perception > > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets > agree > > to disagree and close it at that. > > > > with regards, > > Shantala. > > > > > > > > Prashant > > > > > > Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & > more on new and used cars. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I hope I am not breaking the ranks or decorum if I am saying that I am not happy with the 'astrology'/spiritualism/pooja scene as it has come to be recently. This is not referring to people on this forum and though a disclaimer, is not a cat-call ;-) just so there is no confusion! You have every right to report any such instances in a general manner (or you will be charged by someone for slander, next :-) in fact it is your duty, and I am not telling you that but asking you to consider. While this is not a regulating body of any sorts, it is a public forum and by reporting your experiences you are warning people who might be naive and may be taken for a ride by the same or similar types of sooth-sayers. Again, we are blessed that no such individuals have the time to spend on this forum though occasionally we do get some suspicious email offers even here! Overall, hushing things, just to keep the decorum is absolutely not kosher in today's reality. As my friend Charles used to say, in a different context, if we keep brooming the dust under the rug to hide it, soon there will be a lump and we ourselves might trip on it! Enough said! RR , "shantala_pandit" <shantala_pandit wrote: > > Arre baba, I am not against astrology, wouldn't be here otherwise, > right? like you said some people are good at their job some are not > be it astrologers or doctors or any other profession.. and nobody > can say without having gone through it, correct? Guess I was unlucky > to consult the wrong astrologer. for now, I can live with my > uncertainities. > Is it wrong to suggest something to make things better? I wonder. I > guess you all are satisfied with the way things are, well, so be it! > I am in the IT field, and we keep trying to make our software > better, come up with new features to serve our customers better.. we > develop test cases to make sure our programs don't crash if there is > a bug. I was trying to apply the same principle here (make it > robust, consistent, accountability for performance) which completely > backfired! if there are no takers, it must be a bad idea! > > with regards, > Shantala > , "auromirra19" > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > Hi friends, > > > > RRji's mention of veiled humility, mock humility comes to my mind. > > Is it right to generalise a professional breed per se based on > one's > > experience with them. I too have had a very bitter experience > with > > an astrologer, an experience which at a point in time that > > mattered, changed the course of my life,. but it was that person > > responsible and not astrology, well if we are cross roads ask for > > advice there are so many well meaning people around trying to > help , > > may be all of them may not have the right advice unless of course > > this particular gentleman who relished doing it. > > Then there was this astrologer in chennai, who charged not a rupee > > from people genuinely needy, the poor and had a basic charge for > the > > affluent. Well he paid his taxes , filed his returns citing his > > profession as a astrologer. He sought my advice regarding his > > eligibility for a housing loan. > > Then coming to the medical community, I went for a secong opinion > > to a doctor in one of the well known corporate hospitals in > CHennai. > > I had already gone to her earlier, before the disease made its > > presence felt, with all my symptoms only to be told that I > probably > > suffered from Clinical depression? she said I had a very bizarre > > presentation of symptoms.when I went back to her, an year later, > > after a preliminary diagnosis, she complained as to what I wanted > > now from her? She told me that it was a mess( looking at my xrays, > > prescriptions etc) and that when people come midway the doctor is > > the one to have to deal with the mess. A patient - a mess? what > > ethics are those? She was the pulmonologist, she could have put > the > > symptoms together got nearer the truth earlier. She charged a > > consultation and gave me the holy receipt? what for ? what would i > > do with that? any more than what I did with the astro guidance i > was > > subjected to?( I had no option and did not voluntarily seek it > mind > > u) she also went further and told me that I just was not up to any > > procedure to find out my disease and said any way what was it > worth > > for? I already had two badly damaged lungs not worth repair etc. > How > > soothing? Well can I condemn the medical fraternity? > > And here was my doctor(in India) who had advised me to take a > > second oipnion for a biopsy, and also offered to give some > discount > > coupons for ultrasounds(, he knew how much I had frittered away on > > clueless diagnosts), and a lot of hope. Well here I am. my lungs > are > > improving I dont know how but I feel a lot better. Prashant made a > > mention of various nidhi companies in Chennai, which went bust, > all > > of them gave a gold coin, meteoric interest rates and fancy > deposit > > certificates, receipts what are they worth now? not their weight > in > > paper. > > There are conmen everywhere, they are not limited to a single > > profession and if we let our bitter experiences cloud our > judgement > > we may lose out on the most beautiful truths that life could offer. > > Shantala ji, drain out the bitterness and find out how sweet life > > could be. > > And finally to receive is not a disgrace, it is Grace. > > regards > > Nalini > > > > "WHEN FACED WITH A HARDSHIP THINK OF IT AS A GRACE IT BECOMES ONE" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - In , Prashant Kumar G B > > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Shantala > > > > > > It seems strange to read even theis apology as it more > > mechanical response to replies u've got in return for ur outbursts. > > > > > > IT WILL BE BETTER U PUT FORTH UR QUESTIONS AND OR THE CHARTS > U > > DISCUSSED AND WHAT U GOT OFF THE CHEATERS AS U CLAIM I AM SURE > > PEOPLE WIL THROW ENUF LITE ON THE quality of the people u visited > > not talking about their reputation ofcourse, there is one in > Madras > > who charges 37 per sitting. and has a quee, i know for sure he is > > no good.can talk bombasticaly, even the one the media goes and > > writes a lot the fat man from Mumbai.he know snothing useful. > > > > > > > > > every filed has it sets of good people bad ones, quacks worse, > > so do we decry the filed or the individual > > > medicinehas so far found cure for only 26 ailments rest r > only > > suppressents only. for the symptoms not the disease will u stop > > going to a doctor and condem the medical freternaty. > > > > > > WHY MODERN MEDICINE HAS FAILED IS IT HAS ALWAYS FOCUSED ON > > SYMPTOMS NOT ON THE DISEASE. > > > > > > JAPAN raks the 1st in medical care as for diagnosis it uses > > modern tech. for treatment it uses the traditional path which > > treats the person not the diease. > > > > > > say head aches are caused > > > 1 by weather > > > 2 by exertion > > > 3 emotional levels > > > 4 in controlling an emotional situation-indignation. > > > 5. eye disorders and so on alternate medicine, ayurveda, > > chineese, tibetian , homeo treat it that way > > > 6. in reaction to some food. > > > 7. BP levles. > > > allopathy treats the pain alone. > > > > > > common cold still is not curable by allppathy as > > > > > > it is also caused by some of the factors above apart for > > allergies to dust, pollens etc > > > > > > I AM SURE SOME COMMERCIAL ASTRLOGERS HAVE MADE UR LFIE BAD but > > how does the subject become bad.. > > > > > > please read my mail on the possiblities, potential, LIMITS of > > astrology/astrologers I have pasted it y'day. > > > > > > as briefed to a western client 14 yrs ago > > > some have asked to adjustt he space and re-post it will do it > > again > > > > > > ANY SUBJECT /TOOL is as good as the end user. and the ones to > > check out on its use is entirely ours. > > > > > > while buying amatka people tap for teh sound, or a saree and > > check a few times do they show same thinking while investing with > > fly by night Nidhi or chit funds or hi intrest promisers no. can > we > > blame banking no our ouwn greed, anziety or copy cat syndrome max. > > > > > > Prashant > > > 9840051861 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shantala_pandit <shantala_pandit@> wrote: Respected > > Arjunji, > > > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on > > jyotish/jyotishis, > > > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and > > anyone > > > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally > > hurt > > > sopme strong sentiments here. > > > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > > > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with > > this > > > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > > > anything. > > > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > > > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who > > want > > > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I > > have > > > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in > > and > > > given money to.. > > > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my > > perception > > > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets > > agree > > > to disagree and close it at that. > > > > > > with regards, > > > Shantala. > > > > > > > > > > > > Prashant > > > > > > > > > Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & > > more on new and used cars. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 These comparive analyses and drawing a conclusion that Astrologers too are not infalliable like any other professional like Nidhi firms,diagnosts and jyotishis in any case, consoles .Iam afraid this can be taken as an advantage that is in built and insulate ways of exploitation.If we look and consider from point of conventional wisdom jyotish is one such field where honesty,belief and sincerity forms a core base to find way out (when all other modes got exhausted) From that pathetic if not miserable condition to be able to lead and show some light at the end of tunnel deserves to be commended.This should infact inspire the jyotishis and to encourage the needy and deserved to their spirits and bring them back from distress. Jyotishis might know well that this devine subject is capable offering solutions in critical states. At that point being instaneous to offer solutions and later make the needy to realise that all such advices/suggestions at their back have enormous cost and asked to pay is certainly to be abhored.In any case what ever may be the way of self les service is offered(bonus) the sanctitiy of the subject,the honesty and sincerity that has been often reminded in the qualities of jyotishis should continue to be respected but not to be forsaken. whoever had some bitter experiences have to find out way out to express and in this direction when done why apologies?to whom they want to tender?and why this veiled mention and exonerate? krishnan auromirra19 <nalini2818 wrote: Hi friends, RRji's mention of veiled humility, mock humility comes to my mind. Is it right to generalise a professional breed per se based on one's experience with them. I too have had a very bitter experience with an astrologer, an experience which at a point in time that mattered, changed the course of my life,. but it was that person responsible and not astrology, well if we are cross roads ask for advice there are so many well meaning people around trying to help , may be all of them may not have the right advice unless of course this particular gentleman who relished doing it. Then there was this astrologer in chennai, who charged not a rupee from people genuinely needy, the poor and had a basic charge for the affluent. Well he paid his taxes , filed his returns citing his profession as a astrologer. He sought my advice regarding his eligibility for a housing loan. Then coming to the medical community, I went for a secong opinion to a doctor in one of the well known corporate hospitals in CHennai. I had already gone to her earlier, before the disease made its presence felt, with all my symptoms only to be told that I probably suffered from Clinical depression? she said I had a very bizarre presentation of symptoms.when I went back to her, an year later, after a preliminary diagnosis, she complained as to what I wanted now from her? She told me that it was a mess( looking at my xrays, prescriptions etc) and that when people come midway the doctor is the one to have to deal with the mess. A patient - a mess? what ethics are those? She was the pulmonologist, she could have put the symptoms together got nearer the truth earlier. She charged a consultation and gave me the holy receipt? what for ? what would i do with that? any more than what I did with the astro guidance i was subjected to?( I had no option and did not voluntarily seek it mind u) she also went further and told me that I just was not up to any procedure to find out my disease and said any way what was it worth for? I already had two badly damaged lungs not worth repair etc. How soothing? Well can I condemn the medical fraternity? And here was my doctor(in India) who had advised me to take a second oipnion for a biopsy, and also offered to give some discount coupons for ultrasounds(, he knew how much I had frittered away on clueless diagnosts), and a lot of hope. Well here I am. my lungs are improving I dont know how but I feel a lot better. Prashant made a mention of various nidhi companies in Chennai, which went bust, all of them gave a gold coin, meteoric interest rates and fancy deposit certificates, receipts what are they worth now? not their weight in paper. There are conmen everywhere, they are not limited to a single profession and if we let our bitter experiences cloud our judgement we may lose out on the most beautiful truths that life could offer. Shantala ji, drain out the bitterness and find out how sweet life could be. And finally to receive is not a disgrace, it is Grace. regards Nalini "WHEN FACED WITH A HARDSHIP THINK OF IT AS A GRACE IT BECOMES ONE" - In , Prashant Kumar G B <gbp_kumar wrote: > > Hi Shantala > > It seems strange to read even theis apology as it more mechanical response to replies u've got in return for ur outbursts. > > IT WILL BE BETTER U PUT FORTH UR QUESTIONS AND OR THE CHARTS U DISCUSSED AND WHAT U GOT OFF THE CHEATERS AS U CLAIM I AM SURE PEOPLE WIL THROW ENUF LITE ON THE quality of the people u visited not talking about their reputation ofcourse, there is one in Madras who charges 37 per sitting. and has a quee, i know for sure he is no good.can talk bombasticaly, even the one the media goes and writes a lot the fat man from Mumbai.he know snothing useful. > > > every filed has it sets of good people bad ones, quacks worse, so do we decry the filed or the individual > medicinehas so far found cure for only 26 ailments rest r only suppressents only. for the symptoms not the disease will u stop going to a doctor and condem the medical freternaty. > > WHY MODERN MEDICINE HAS FAILED IS IT HAS ALWAYS FOCUSED ON SYMPTOMS NOT ON THE DISEASE. > > JAPAN raks the 1st in medical care as for diagnosis it uses modern tech. for treatment it uses the traditional path which treats the person not the diease. > > say head aches are caused > 1 by weather > 2 by exertion > 3 emotional levels > 4 in controlling an emotional situation-indignation. > 5. eye disorders and so on alternate medicine, ayurveda, chineese, tibetian , homeo treat it that way > 6. in reaction to some food. > 7. BP levles. > allopathy treats the pain alone. > > common cold still is not curable by allppathy as > > it is also caused by some of the factors above apart for allergies to dust, pollens etc > > I AM SURE SOME COMMERCIAL ASTRLOGERS HAVE MADE UR LFIE BAD but how does the subject become bad.. > > please read my mail on the possiblities, potential, LIMITS of astrology/astrologers I have pasted it y'day. > > as briefed to a western client 14 yrs ago > some have asked to adjustt he space and re-post it will do it again > > ANY SUBJECT /TOOL is as good as the end user. and the ones to check out on its use is entirely ours. > > while buying amatka people tap for teh sound, or a saree and check a few times do they show same thinking while investing with fly by night Nidhi or chit funds or hi intrest promisers no. can we blame banking no our ouwn greed, anziety or copy cat syndrome max. > > Prashant > 9840051861 > > > > > > shantala_pandit <shantala_pandit wrote: Respected Arjunji, > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on jyotish/jyotishis, > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally hurt > sopme strong sentiments here. > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with this > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > anything. > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who want > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I have > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in and > given money to.. > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my perception > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets agree > to disagree and close it at that. > > with regards, > Shantala. > > > > Prashant > > > Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. Vedic astrology Astrology chart Astrology software Visit your group "" on the web. Relax. Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 You are right! Why the apologies? Good to see confluence again! Astrologers, most of them are really regular people, ordinary people differing from the nativities who seek answers just in their knowledge and dedication and interest towards astrology. Therefore, there is no need for paranoia and over reaction, on the part of genuine astrologers who feel somehow responsible for the black sheep or to uphold the purity and piety of astrology. Good to see that we all are growing and maturing and through us, so is astrology! , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > These comparive analyses and drawing a conclusion that Astrologers too are not infalliable like any other professional like Nidhi firms,diagnosts and jyotishis in any case, consoles > .Iam afraid this can be taken as an advantage that is in built and insulate ways of exploitation.If we look and consider from point of conventional wisdom jyotish is one such field where honesty,belief and sincerity forms a core base to find way out (when all other modes got exhausted) > From that pathetic if not miserable condition to be able to lead and show some light at the end of tunnel deserves to be commended.This should infact inspire the jyotishis and to encourage the needy and deserved to their spirits and bring them back from distress. > Jyotishis might know well that this devine subject is capable offering solutions in critical states. > At that point being instaneous to offer solutions and later make the needy to realise that all such advices/suggestions at their back have enormous cost and asked to pay is certainly to be abhored.In any case what ever may be the way of self les service is offered (bonus) the sanctitiy of the subject,the honesty and sincerity that has been often reminded in the qualities of jyotishis should continue to be respected but not to be forsaken. > whoever had some bitter experiences have to find out way out to express and in this direction when done why apologies?to whom they want to tender?and why this veiled mention and exonerate? > krishnan > auromirra19 <nalini2818 wrote: > Hi friends, > > RRji's mention of veiled humility, mock humility comes to my mind. > Is it right to generalise a professional breed per se based on one's > experience with them. I too have had a very bitter experience with > an astrologer, an experience which at a point in time that > mattered, changed the course of my life,. but it was that person > responsible and not astrology, well if we are cross roads ask for > advice there are so many well meaning people around trying to help , > may be all of them may not have the right advice unless of course > this particular gentleman who relished doing it. > Then there was this astrologer in chennai, who charged not a rupee > from people genuinely needy, the poor and had a basic charge for the > affluent. Well he paid his taxes , filed his returns citing his > profession as a astrologer. He sought my advice regarding his > eligibility for a housing loan. > Then coming to the medical community, I went for a secong opinion > to a doctor in one of the well known corporate hospitals in CHennai. > I had already gone to her earlier, before the disease made its > presence felt, with all my symptoms only to be told that I probably > suffered from Clinical depression? she said I had a very bizarre > presentation of symptoms.when I went back to her, an year later, > after a preliminary diagnosis, she complained as to what I wanted > now from her? She told me that it was a mess( looking at my xrays, > prescriptions etc) and that when people come midway the doctor is > the one to have to deal with the mess. A patient - a mess? what > ethics are those? She was the pulmonologist, she could have put the > symptoms together got nearer the truth earlier. She charged a > consultation and gave me the holy receipt? what for ? what would i > do with that? any more than what I did with the astro guidance i was > subjected to?( I had no option and did not voluntarily seek it mind > u) she also went further and told me that I just was not up to any > procedure to find out my disease and said any way what was it worth > for? I already had two badly damaged lungs not worth repair etc. How > soothing? Well can I condemn the medical fraternity? > And here was my doctor(in India) who had advised me to take a > second oipnion for a biopsy, and also offered to give some discount > coupons for ultrasounds(, he knew how much I had frittered away on > clueless diagnosts), and a lot of hope. Well here I am. my lungs are > improving I dont know how but I feel a lot better. Prashant made a > mention of various nidhi companies in Chennai, which went bust, all > of them gave a gold coin, meteoric interest rates and fancy deposit > certificates, receipts what are they worth now? not their weight in > paper. > There are conmen everywhere, they are not limited to a single > profession and if we let our bitter experiences cloud our judgement > we may lose out on the most beautiful truths that life could offer. > Shantala ji, drain out the bitterness and find out how sweet life > could be. > And finally to receive is not a disgrace, it is Grace. > regards > Nalini > > "WHEN FACED WITH A HARDSHIP THINK OF IT AS A GRACE IT BECOMES ONE" - In , Prashant Kumar G B > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > Hi Shantala > > > > It seems strange to read even theis apology as it more > mechanical response to replies u've got in return for ur outbursts. > > > > IT WILL BE BETTER U PUT FORTH UR QUESTIONS AND OR THE CHARTS U > DISCUSSED AND WHAT U GOT OFF THE CHEATERS AS U CLAIM I AM SURE > PEOPLE WIL THROW ENUF LITE ON THE quality of the people u visited > not talking about their reputation ofcourse, there is one in Madras > who charges 37 per sitting. and has a quee, i know for sure he is > no good.can talk bombasticaly, even the one the media goes and > writes a lot the fat man from Mumbai.he know snothing useful. > > > > > > every filed has it sets of good people bad ones, quacks worse, > so do we decry the filed or the individual > > medicinehas so far found cure for only 26 ailments rest r only > suppressents only. for the symptoms not the disease will u stop > going to a doctor and condem the medical freternaty. > > > > WHY MODERN MEDICINE HAS FAILED IS IT HAS ALWAYS FOCUSED ON > SYMPTOMS NOT ON THE DISEASE. > > > > JAPAN raks the 1st in medical care as for diagnosis it uses > modern tech. for treatment it uses the traditional path which > treats the person not the diease. > > > > say head aches are caused > > 1 by weather > > 2 by exertion > > 3 emotional levels > > 4 in controlling an emotional situation-indignation. > > 5. eye disorders and so on alternate medicine, ayurveda, > chineese, tibetian , homeo treat it that way > > 6. in reaction to some food. > > 7. BP levles. > > allopathy treats the pain alone. > > > > common cold still is not curable by allppathy as > > > > it is also caused by some of the factors above apart for > allergies to dust, pollens etc > > > > I AM SURE SOME COMMERCIAL ASTRLOGERS HAVE MADE UR LFIE BAD but > how does the subject become bad.. > > > > please read my mail on the possiblities, potential, LIMITS of > astrology/astrologers I have pasted it y'day. > > > > as briefed to a western client 14 yrs ago > > some have asked to adjustt he space and re-post it will do it > again > > > > ANY SUBJECT /TOOL is as good as the end user. and the ones to > check out on its use is entirely ours. > > > > while buying amatka people tap for teh sound, or a saree and > check a few times do they show same thinking while investing with > fly by night Nidhi or chit funds or hi intrest promisers no. can we > blame banking no our ouwn greed, anziety or copy cat syndrome max. > > > > Prashant > > 9840051861 > > > > > > > > > > > > shantala_pandit <shantala_pandit@> wrote: Respected > Arjunji, > > since you are feeling so bad about my comments on > jyotish/jyotishis, > > let me at the outset offer my sincere apologies to you and > anyone > > else who felt the same as it looks like I have unintentionally > hurt > > sopme strong sentiments here. > > Let me also clarify that my comments are as a result of my > > experience with astrologers in general and definitely not with > this > > group of august astrologers as I obviously haven't even asked > > anything. > > Each human being is entitled to his opinions based on his > > experience..you have had bitter experience with querents who > want > > free readings and don't ackmowledge your effort, similarly I > have > > had sour experiences with astrologers whom I had put faith in > and > > given money to.. > > I chose to give my frank and critical opinion based on my > perception > > of what jyotish can do better. If you feel that is wrong, lets > agree > > to disagree and close it at that. > > > > with regards, > > Shantala. > > > > > > > > Prashant > > > > > > Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & > more on new and used cars. > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Vedic astrology Astrology chart Astrology software > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > Relax. Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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