Article on loneliness

May 29, 2003

Dear Tanvir,

For loneliness of a person, all laws given here

for unhappy marriage, More then three Zero in the SAV.

Position of Venus from Sun, and aspect of Saturn, etc

etc.

Please check these with the charts you received.

You will find these laws more perfect in the matter.

Thanks

krushna

--- Tanvir <tanvir wrote:

> Dear members,

> A while ago, I requested data of members faced

> loneliness in life. I am thankful to all the members

> since I have got a very good response from all of

> you. Since I have received many mails and datas, I

> am unable to contact all of them YET. But I would

> definitely contact all the members who sent me

> datas. So, please give me a little while :-)

>

> I wanted to share my observations / thoughts to all

> the members from my own, also many have expressed

> their interest to know the result. That is why I

> wrote an article trying to put my observations and

> thoughts about loneliness.

>

> It can be read at

>

http://www.geocities.com/planetaryastro/articles/loneliness.htm

>

> Being on the learning process, I have used very

> simple and straight forward interpretation and am

> aware that there is better approach to those charts

> for sure. If any of you find any error in chart

> drawing or in other facts, please let me know. Any

> comment would be welcome.

>

> I have observed people's pain for the lonliness that

> is why I have tried to put some general Vedic

> Astrology remedies in the page for people might be

> benefited. If any of you know any remedies for

> loneliness, please let me know.

>

> I have observed that people feel so happy to take

> part in such kind of servays and thus help growing

> this divine Sastra, so if I can then I would like to

> run more surveys on other interesting issues later.

> This is not before July when I will be free from the

> pressure of studies, also by then I would finish

> communicating all the members took part in this

> survey.

>

> Best wishes,

> Tanvir

>

> What can not happen, can never happen.

> Which is mine, is forever mine.

>

> Tanvir Chowdhury

> tanvir

> http://www.geocities.com/king_tanvir

> http://www.geocities.com/planetaryastro

>

Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

http://calendar.

July 26, 2005

Respected members,

I just read the article on Loneliness written by Tanvir Chowdhury

posted on the website www.jyotish-remedies.com. I am very new to

astrology and do not understand much. I was surprised to read that

even loneliness is a result of planetary positions in our horoscope.

I now wonder if my horoscope indicates loneliness and what remedies

do

I follow.

As a child growing up, I had lots of friends. I made friends easily

and people wanted to be friends with me and I was happy. But the last

few years, I have felt like people I know don't want to be friends

with me and I feel lonely at times. I don't even try to make friends

anymore....what's the point?

I would appreciate if some one could throw some light on this

Thanking in anticipation

Preeya

Birth details---11 June 1971: 21.40 p.m.: Mumbai

July 26, 2005

There are those who believe that everything about an individual and

his/her life must be reflected in the horoscope. They truly believe

that everything is destined. There are the other extreme that hold the

view that everything can be changed and indeed many do not believe in

astrology or that horoscope truly reflects one's experiences in life.

Then there are those that fall in between these extremes.

Loneliness is the negative aspect of being alone. Not everyone who

loves to be alone (some, most or all times) is miserable or clinically

depressed or <insert your favorite adjective here>. Indeed there are

phases in life when being alone is essential for progress and for

getting some creative work done :-)

There are many astro-indicators described in different forms of

astrology which are claimed to describe if the nativity is an introvert

(tends to be alone and happy within self) or extrovert (fish out of

water if alone for a while -- diff degrees exist, mind you). Some

planets are naturally of one or the other nature (I or E) but again

like in most situations, influences modify the bottom line.

These are general things. Maybe someone who had done some study or

research in this area can share their findings.

RR

, "preekaria" <preekaria>

wrote:

> Respected members,

> I just read the article on Loneliness written by Tanvir Chowdhury

> posted on the website www.jyotish-remedies.com. I am very new to

> astrology and do not understand much. I was surprised to read that

> even loneliness is a result of planetary positions in our horoscope.

> I now wonder if my horoscope indicates loneliness and what remedies

> do

> I follow.

> As a child growing up, I had lots of friends. I made friends easily

> and people wanted to be friends with me and I was happy. But the last

> few years, I have felt like people I know don't want to be friends

> with me and I feel lonely at times. I don't even try to make friends

> anymore....what's the point?

> I would appreciate if some one could throw some light on this

> Thanking in anticipation

> Preeya

> Birth details---11 June 1971: 21.40 p.m.: Mumbai

July 26, 2005

Hello RR,

Loneliness is a kind of situation in which perhps want to be located.But not all

times.Atleast some times!Now the question is :Is it that can we find from the

time he understands the world(say around 10 yrs age) preferred/remained with

much less contacts and alone.It is difficult to imagine a person to remain aloof

unless some medical grounds keep him so.

But then,some times I wondered about planets in my 6th,7th and 8th house(Being

Agni tatwa,prithvi and jalatatwa) i enjoyed both states of happiness as well as

aloof.Out of my heart of i enjoyed loneliness when every has grouse to be alone

in my house.

Then my focus continued to be my moon sign associated with saturn, a kind of

reservation in public dealing was always hunting me(the sense is not to distrub

others).From Rasi of capricorn lord is in enemy's sign of cancer surrounded by

sun,saturn and venus.astrologers tend to have their own theories about this

graha yuddha in 8th house from lagna.

I however felt that as sun is placed in cancer is also a lagna.I was it shy and

particularly hesitant to soft race.

mention about lonliness without refering 3rd and 11th somehow looks incomplete

as 3rd is a sign menat for communications and 11th for relationships(both

signify friends and kinship).One thing was very prominent in the chart that my

planets always kept me away from my kins and me survive all alone where i had

nochance to relate to myself with anybody.may be the life went through that kind

of journey leading me to remote places eeking out livelihood.It was wonderful

experience when one has time to relate himself to the vastness of univers and

able to understand the grace of humanbeings irrespective of religion,caste and

creed.may be lagna lord again in enemy sign of venus in 11th house(libra) gave

to experience pleasues and frustations to be mostly alone and also bridging

uncommon relationship with different motives.so near and so far off I always

felt Iam alone in my life(not only from father,mother and brothers) including

childhood friends.

I know as a sagittarus ascendant, iam always treated as businees minded(if not

professinal approach).With moon in 2nd in capricorrn, i experienced struggle and

enjoyed it.Even now I feel Iam some how alone and feel loneliness.

To sum up:

Moon sign

placement of lagna lord

situation of 6th,7th and 8th houses

will always lead us to find the grounds to find a person as lone and feel

lonliness.

Cerainly jupiter makes people not to relate with others and makes you to be

independent and alone.

I hope my group members may also find similar views,planery notations and may be

experiences to some extent.

May be me Tanveer ji will be able to consolidate the issues further

krishnan

"Rohini (Crystal Pages)" <rrgb wrote:

There are those who believe that everything about an individual and

his/her life must be reflected in the horoscope. They truly believe

that everything is destined. There are the other extreme that hold the

view that everything can be changed and indeed many do not believe in

astrology or that horoscope truly reflects one's experiences in life.

Then there are those that fall in between these extremes.

Loneliness is the negative aspect of being alone. Not everyone who

loves to be alone (some, most or all times) is miserable or clinically

depressed or <insert your favorite adjective here>. Indeed there are

phases in life when being alone is essential for progress and for

getting some creative work done :-)

There are many astro-indicators described in different forms of

astrology which are claimed to describe if the nativity is an introvert

(tends to be alone and happy within self) or extrovert (fish out of

water if alone for a while -- diff degrees exist, mind you). Some

planets are naturally of one or the other nature (I or E) but again

like in most situations, influences modify the bottom line.

These are general things. Maybe someone who had done some study or

research in this area can share their findings.

RR

, "preekaria" <preekaria>

wrote:

> Respected members,

> I just read the article on Loneliness written by Tanvir Chowdhury

> posted on the website www.jyotish-remedies.com. I am very new to

> astrology and do not understand much. I was surprised to read that

> even loneliness is a result of planetary positions in our horoscope.

> I now wonder if my horoscope indicates loneliness and what remedies

> do

> I follow.

> As a child growing up, I had lots of friends. I made friends easily

> and people wanted to be friends with me and I was happy. But the last

> few years, I have felt like people I know don't want to be friends

> with me and I feel lonely at times. I don't even try to make friends

> anymore....what's the point?

> I would appreciate if some one could throw some light on this

> Thanking in anticipation

> Preeya

> Birth details---11 June 1971: 21.40 p.m.: Mumbai

SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF

ABSOLUTE BLISS.

Visit your group "" on the web.

July 27, 2005

Rohiniji,

u r hard to get a hold of

please help us build our baby jyotish group blog & forums

http://www.ethericpark.com

namaste

, "Rohini (Crystal Pages)"

<rrgb@s...> wrote:

> There are those who believe that everything about an individual and

> his/her life must be reflected in the horoscope. They truly believe

> that everything is destined. There are the other extreme that hold the

> view that everything can be changed and indeed many do not believe in

> astrology or that horoscope truly reflects one's experiences in life.

> Then there are those that fall in between these extremes.

>

> Loneliness is the negative aspect of being alone. Not everyone who

> loves to be alone (some, most or all times) is miserable or clinically

> depressed or <insert your favorite adjective here>. Indeed there are

> phases in life when being alone is essential for progress and for

> getting some creative work done :-)

>

> There are many astro-indicators described in different forms of

> astrology which are claimed to describe if the nativity is an introvert

> (tends to be alone and happy within self) or extrovert (fish out of

> water if alone for a while -- diff degrees exist, mind you). Some

> planets are naturally of one or the other nature (I or E) but again

> like in most situations, influences modify the bottom line.

>

> These are general things. Maybe someone who had done some study or

> research in this area can share their findings.

>

> RR

>

> , "preekaria" <preekaria>

> wrote:

> > Respected members,

> > I just read the article on Loneliness written by Tanvir Chowdhury

> > posted on the website www.jyotish-remedies.com. I am very new to

> > astrology and do not understand much. I was surprised to read that

> > even loneliness is a result of planetary positions in our horoscope.

> > I now wonder if my horoscope indicates loneliness and what remedies

> > do

> > I follow.

> > As a child growing up, I had lots of friends. I made friends easily

> > and people wanted to be friends with me and I was happy. But the last

> > few years, I have felt like people I know don't want to be friends

> > with me and I feel lonely at times. I don't even try to make friends

> > anymore....what's the point?

> > I would appreciate if some one could throw some light on this

> > Thanking in anticipation

> > Preeya

> > Birth details---11 June 1971: 21.40 p.m.: Mumbai

July 27, 2005

Dear Preeya,

You have rahu and mars in lagna and rahu-venus antar going

on. Rahu alone in lagna is enough to make one anxious, pessimistic and lonely.

It is quite possible that you are not registering what people close to you are

doing for you. Rahu is also affecting the eleventh house, the house of friends

and aquaintances.

You have lot of aquaintances but a persistent doubt about their feelings

towards you is there. It is just a doubt and your friends really care for you.

You can try some remedies of rahu to get out of these feelings of loneliness. To

start with, avoid black and grey colours and use more of light blue, green and

white. Wear a white sapphire in silver ring on ring finger.

Try to get your husband to spend more time with you.

Best

wishes,

Ashutosh.

-

preekaria

Wednesday, July 27, 2005 00:19

Article on loneliness

Respected members,

I just read the article on Loneliness written by Tanvir Chowdhury

posted on the website www.jyotish-remedies.com. I am very new to

astrology and do not understand much. I was surprised to read that

even loneliness is a result of planetary positions in our horoscope.

I now wonder if my horoscope indicates loneliness and what remedies

do

I follow.

As a child growing up, I had lots of friends. I made friends easily

and people wanted to be friends with me and I was happy. But the last

few years, I have felt like people I know don't want to be friends

with me and I feel lonely at times. I don't even try to make friends

anymore....what's the point?

I would appreciate if some one could throw some light on this

Thanking in anticipation

Preeya

Birth details---11 June 1971: 21.40 p.m.: Mumbai

SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE

OF ABSOLUTE BLISS.

Vedic astrology Astrology chart Astrology software

a.. Visit your group "" on the web.

b..

c..

July 27, 2005

Sometimes in such circumstances it is useful to select cases where

individuals can be strongly classified without doubt. There are forms

of conditions (not necessarily diseases though some would call them

so) where people show strong indications of preferring to be alone

(different from loneliness which is a state where the person is

bothered by being alone and desires for other's company but cannot

find anyone). This is preferred over using more 'mainstream'

personalities or average person if you want to call it that where the

distinction might not be clear.

I kind of follow the 'logic' in your combinations (which is not to

say that it would necessarily pan out in horoscopes :-). It is a

personal choice obviously whether to stop at that or to test it

further.

RR

, vattem krishnan

<bursar_99> wrote:

> Hello RR,

> Loneliness is a kind of situation in which perhps want to be

located.But not all times.Atleast some times!Now the question is :Is

it that can we find from the time he understands the world(say around

10 yrs age) preferred/remained with much less contacts and alone.It

is difficult to imagine a person to remain aloof unless some medical

grounds keep him so.

> But then,some times I wondered about planets in my 6th,7th and 8th

house(Being Agni tatwa,prithvi and jalatatwa) i enjoyed both states

of happiness as well as aloof.Out of my heart of i enjoyed loneliness

when every has grouse to be alone in my house.

> Then my focus continued to be my moon sign associated with saturn,

a kind of reservation in public dealing was always hunting me(the

sense is not to distrub others).From Rasi of capricorn lord is in

enemy's sign of cancer surrounded by sun,saturn and venus.astrologers

tend to have their own theories about this graha yuddha in 8th house

from lagna.

> I however felt that as sun is placed in cancer is also a lagna.I

was it shy and particularly hesitant to soft race.

> mention about lonliness without refering 3rd and 11th somehow looks

incomplete as 3rd is a sign menat for communications and 11th for

relationships(both signify friends and kinship).One thing was very

prominent in the chart that my planets always kept me away from my

kins and me survive all alone where i had nochance to relate to

myself with anybody.may be the life went through that kind of journey

leading me to remote places eeking out livelihood.It was wonderful

experience when one has time to relate himself to the vastness of

univers and able to understand the grace of humanbeings irrespective

of religion,caste and creed.may be lagna lord again in enemy sign of

venus in 11th house(libra) gave to experience pleasues and

frustations to be mostly alone and also bridging uncommon

relationship with different motives.so near and so far off I always

felt Iam alone in my life(not only from father,mother and brothers)

including childhood friends.

> I know as a sagittarus ascendant, iam always treated as businees

minded(if not professinal approach).With moon in 2nd in capricorrn, i

experienced struggle and enjoyed it.Even now I feel Iam some how

alone and feel loneliness.

> To sum up:

> Moon sign

> placement of lagna lord

> situation of 6th,7th and 8th houses

> will always lead us to find the grounds to find a person as lone

and feel lonliness.

> Cerainly jupiter makes people not to relate with others and makes

you to be independent and alone.

> I hope my group members may also find similar views,planery

notations and may be experiences to some extent.

> May be me Tanveer ji will be able to consolidate the issues further

> krishnan

>

> "Rohini (Crystal Pages)" <rrgb@s...> wrote:

> There are those who believe that everything about an individual and

> his/her life must be reflected in the horoscope. They truly believe

> that everything is destined. There are the other extreme that hold

the

> view that everything can be changed and indeed many do not believe

in

> astrology or that horoscope truly reflects one's experiences in

life.

> Then there are those that fall in between these extremes.

>

> Loneliness is the negative aspect of being alone. Not everyone who

> loves to be alone (some, most or all times) is miserable or

clinically

> depressed or <insert your favorite adjective here>. Indeed there

are

> phases in life when being alone is essential for progress and for

> getting some creative work done :-)

>

> There are many astro-indicators described in different forms of

> astrology which are claimed to describe if the nativity is an

introvert

> (tends to be alone and happy within self) or extrovert (fish out of

> water if alone for a while -- diff degrees exist, mind you). Some

> planets are naturally of one or the other nature (I or E) but again

> like in most situations, influences modify the bottom line.

>

> These are general things. Maybe someone who had done some study or

> research in this area can share their findings.

>

> RR

>

> , "preekaria"

> wrote:

> > Respected members,

> > I just read the article on Loneliness written by Tanvir Chowdhury

> > posted on the website www.jyotish-remedies.com. I am very new to

> > astrology and do not understand much. I was surprised to read

that

> > even loneliness is a result of planetary positions in our

horoscope.

> > I now wonder if my horoscope indicates loneliness and what

remedies

> > do

> > I follow.

> > As a child growing up, I had lots of friends. I made friends

easily

> > and people wanted to be friends with me and I was happy. But the

last

> > few years, I have felt like people I know don't want to be

friends

> > with me and I feel lonely at times. I don't even try to make

friends

> > anymore....what's the point?

> > I would appreciate if some one could throw some light on this

> > Thanking in anticipation

> > Preeya

> > Birth details---11 June 1971: 21.40 p.m.: Mumbai

SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH

THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS.

>

> Visit your group "" on the web.

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

July 28, 2005

Rohiniji,

You touched upon a subject that I was debating in my mind, as to how much of

all our life is dictated by destiny, and whether or not we have free will at all

,and when is it it more evident, and how do we distinguish between "free will

events" and "destined events" .

Twins born with the same identical charts may not have identical life, what

caused that distinction? Also there are few other people born with the same

chart as Mahatma gandhi ( born aound same time , same location with same chart)

have not become mahatmas.

I would appreciate an answer from you, if not you can direct me to a site which

can explain this for me.

Thanks and regards,

Aruna.

"Rohini (Crystal Pages)" <rrgb wrote:

There are those who believe that everything about an individual and

his/her life must be reflected in the horoscope. They truly believe

that everything is destined. There are the other extreme that hold the

view that everything can be changed and indeed many do not believe in

astrology or that horoscope truly reflects one's experiences in life.

Then there are those that fall in between these extremes.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

July 29, 2005

Hi Aruna ji,

This topic has been discussed on this frum and other lists earlier

also.

I have kept some mails in a document with me. I am posting that for

you.

all of them may not be related ...

Here it follows:::

Dear Mark

Well said. I have been arguing for every person having 100%

free will case. The reason is quite simple, that when free will is

called "FREE will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen

some discussions where people talk of a percentaged free will.

What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from

the consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma

comes in. But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise

our free will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our

current decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free

souls. The souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish

definitely gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past

actions. The various techniques such as dasas and progressions

are nothing but projections of the same.

I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a

bad sani dasa etc. Let me clear the point here, because even

i am in rahu dasa since last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a

roller coaster ride, but then i also became spiritual. The

setbacks made me "goINWARD" which i wouldnot have done had

everything been a jolly good ride. Rahu and sani are planets that

force us to look inward,look at our souls, thedesires of the soul.

They make us ponder atthe meaning of life, at our frailities, and

our greatness. Every soul is a spark of divine life, and all our

experiences are nothing but the various manifestations of the

divine play. They make us remember more of who we are really.

Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what

freedom is.

For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's

place, and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot

take decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I

worked in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at

me. I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And

we are basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are

free. We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

are "Invincibles" We experience helplessness to learn that we

are " Creative machines".

All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what

it is not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is

day, when i see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only

when i have tasted the bitter. That is why we are in earth,

the plane of dualities.

best wishes

partha

Dear Mark and Partha,

It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that

we are 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the

consequences of our own past actions, as per the karma theory ..

but this seemsto contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma

as your starting point - you did not go as far back as you need

to. I am not saying this very well, let me try again.

We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us

behave in a certain way, or give us good or bad results.

However, it is not a simple linear equation, that karma causes

us to do

something, that a past action causes a reaction, which has to

be worked through. There was something else that came before that

action ... and THAT something was your free will to perform that

action. Once you exercise that free will, and perform a certain

action, the

outcome is a given in many cases - whining that we can't

exercise our free will to escapethe outcome, is not quite fair.

(I am

oversimplifying to make a point.... in reality free still

exists, since you always have a choice as to your future

actions.) It's like throwing a ball up in the air, you have the

free will to throw it up if you want, but the fact remains that it

will come down because of gravity, because THAT was the reaction

that you set in motion withyour action done with 100% free will.

Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology

shows the what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things

that are meant to happen. The true "cause" of the happennings

though, are the actions that you yourself set in motion, either

knowingly or unknowingly, it's not a planet somewhere. When I read

statements such as Saturn is causing sorrow, I always think of a

really simple analogy. Say a murderer is put in jail, is it

really the fault of the cop that caught him, the judge that

sentenced him, the prison warden that prevents him from escaping,

or the jail for holding him?

These are the roles that the planets / houses / rasis /

dispositers

play. The true cause is the murder that this criminal committed,

whenhe exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of

the events in motion.

Venkatarama Sreelatha

Dear Venkat

The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different

components. Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree,

and the cow can act within the radius of that rope. Now cow can

move very much freely, but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The

reason is the weightof the Karma(tree) that has been planted by

the individual actions. The length of the rope again varies from

person to person. The length of the rope is directly proportional

to the amount

of "awareness" a person has. Awareness is nothing but the

knowledge of the soul. The more aspects a person remembers, the

more "centered" he becomes to his soul. I am neither Partha, nor

are you sreelatha. These are tools or the bodies for this lifetime.

But havenot we undergone the joys and pains thinking that we are

parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that we totally identify

ourselves with the body, with the mind. This identification is

nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to popular notion is not pride. It

is the identification. Without a label, without a name, the

existence of a separate individual orobject is not feasible. All

seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as Arabian,

and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined these names must

have done for travelling purposes. But arenot people miffed, when

say a person erroneously

mispells their name?

Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity

that "bears a fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or

tangible result. One can be free from the results of his actions,

if he chooses his free will to act wthout aspiration of result.

Yes, free willis the "first cause", then comes everything. But then

we use our free will to get a paricular result. ANd that is the

trap.

If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it

may be, then slowly you can get out of the trap.

The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the consequences

forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as

a perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime

even), then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set

free that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from

my

Fifth body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer

is "Later" Best wishes

partha

Dear Partha ji,Venkata ji,

I feel free will is an attribute of soul. And all the planetry

constitution belongs to our outer bodies.

As partha ji said the outer bodies are bound to past karmas.

To enjoy free will and to let it materialize one has to overcome

one's past karmas. i felt many times obstructions due to my own

limitations in the way of free will to materializ.

And also mere identification of those obstructive traits of my

outer bodies was not enough but all the work done by destiny was

really needed to eradicate them. hence to materialize our free will

(which is essentially 100%,but comes out to be less due to

inadequecy of outer bodies thats what a chart represents to),we need

to develop our outer bodies equipped with some qualities. We are

given these bodies as per our past karmas and the consequences of

past karmas which come to us as our fortune are essentially to

develop ourselves.

As said by partha ji :"The length of the rope again varies from

person to person. The length of the rope is directly proportional

to the amount of "awareness" a person has." This awareness is to

overcome to the limitations of our outer bodies.But we identify

ourselves with these outer bodies only. Astrology is called "para

vidya".free will comes in "Apara ".

i have One question::"if a person leaves the worldly life how he

pays the debt of his past karmas".I think this also is

predetermined.

or as Venkata said ::"It's like throwing a ball up in the air,

you have the free will to throw it up if you want" he can use his

free will(in leaving worldly life). going furthermore, is

renunciation also predetermined???

sincerely,

Amit

-

Dear Amit Ji,

It is so interesting that the perceptions of the people in this

thread are so similar, yet slightly different. I feel as if we are

all looking at the same diamond, from slightly different angles,

and see different facets ... each brilliant and beautiful, but each

one

of a kind..

As for someone that retires from worldly life... the traditional

view is that all their Karmas, the good as well as the bad are

given up in the act of renunciation... you are not only renouncing the

world, but everything to do with the world... all that is left then

is the unencumbered and eternal Atma.

The ball that is thrown up may come down, but you don't have to

catch it..... the desire to do so is itself renounced, along with

all other desires. this alone - what the geetha calls sankalpa

tyaag - is renounciation

venkatarama sreelatha

-----------------

Dear latha ji,

Yo are very right.

The person who observes renunciation sees no difference in good/bad

happenings.

As you mentioned of sankalpa tyaaga....then he even need not to leave

the worldly life.

my concern is "whether the renunciation also predetermined?"

Here 'leaving worldly life' and 'sankalpa tyaaga' both come under the

scruitiny.

Does Astrology predicts of how much a person can progress spiritually.

Because astrologers explain the charts of spiritually developed

persons / renounced persons in a way which shows that all this was

predetermined.

sincerely

amit

-----------------------**************************

Dear All,

I've lost track of who wrote this. Sorry. Please could you give

the reference. Note the word CHOOSE in the quote!

To quote a famous Vedic Scholoar: "life lived on the level of

experimentation is a waste of time. Better to know the truth

through Vedic Wisdom, and then choose the more right actions."

Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to put us

in the right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it

right!!

How can it be like a chess game the if conditions are different with

each incarnation? We don't start a new life with the same pieces to

play on the same board.

Since you brought in physics ...

Remember that everything in the universe comes from humble hydrogen

atoms and the forces, energies (and music?) that holds them together.

When hydrogen atoms are forced together to produce helium and then

all

the other higher elements heat and light energy are given off

(physics)

Further compounds formed by the sharing of outer orbit (aka energy

level,shell) electrons of elements give more substances. (chemistry)

The unique quality of carbon having an outer orbit of 4 electrons

and seeking another 4 to fill its outer orbit (2nd orbit is full at 8

electrons) gives the chance for long strings or rings of carbon atoms

and for macromolecules ( biology) We carbon units need the heat and

light of the fusion of hydrogen to exist How pure it is!

... and where did the hydrogen atoms come from ... the primordial

ocean of sub atomic particles ... the cosmic ocean ... The sages knew

all this.

Love Gili

Sorry for drifting away from the task )

„« -----------

Dear Mary:

You said: Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order

to put us in the right environment to learn the lessons we need to

get it right!!

There's this very fascinating book, called 'Journey of Souls'

written by a certain Michael Newton, PHD. He's a Hypnotherapist,

living in

Colorado, who chronicles, patients of his, who under 'regression'

talk about the life, from 'where' we come from, before our births,

and in-between our births...

In this book he describes such beautiful detail about how we as

souls, actually get very involved in picking the lives, that are

coming up, before hand...

As it is, deciding and chooseing to pick the challenges and

lessons, that certain lives will necessarily bring...for our

evolution.

I found this book extremely enlightening, as it explains a quality

of consciousness, that's intimately involved in Astrology as well.

And this question and concern addresses a very important

relationship between life purpose, and Jyotish.

We so often 'feel' such an automatic, desire to grow, to learn to

master. And that's so often at odds, with the all too often, aspect

of life, regarding determinism or causality.

Somehow the two, freedom and determinism both co-exist.

We see them both, but knowing how they both could truely exist

boggles the intellect.

However, practical experience shows us, that by striving to grow, to

improve, to even transform, we do 'change' our lives....

in ways that improve, and help us avoid negatives, and even 'dangers

upon the horizon'.

I find this whole discussion extremely important especially in the

light of the Indian or Vedic theme of loss and revival of Knowledge.

There are some, Vedic scholars, by the way, who say that 'India'

has gotten very 'lost' to this belief in fatalism. And as a result

practicallife has become very confused and unprogressive.

India, for example, has forgotten that 'both' freedom and fate, co-

exist, and believing in mostly fate, has meant much stagnation, grief,

sufferings, because the view has persisted; because life is

pre-determined,....therefore....accept ....

In the West, we don't believe in this...

We believe in growth, in change and transformation.

We have it even, built into the Constitution of the United

States....

Though commonly we just say, 'any young person, male or female; can

grow up to be President!'

This attitude, really, has therefore allowed human genuity and

creativity to blossom.

As a result of this powerful 'belief', the United States has

incredible wealth and sucess.

Looking at one of the charts associated with the United States,

July 4th, 1776, the signing of the Declaration of Independence...

the US, chart, has many planets in that all-important 8th house of

transformation.

'The US' believes in change, thrives in it, has many other

problems, of youth, and Rahu's very poorly placed...but....

'change' and growth, are not one of them....

It's been quite fun watching these discussions the last few days...

Sincerely,

Mark Kincaid

---

Dear Mark ji,

I think now we are getting a glimpse of relation of free will and

determinism.....

I always wondered ... what happens to us is very much according to

the wish of self.....

let me explain:

our mind always looks into greed ...its convenience...its familiar

patterns....

now i know in my deep that to change...to transform i need this

particular....whether its liked or not.....

what happens to us is as per our this very wish.....

I am also talking of all serious matters...all failures...all

accidents ...mishappenings etc.....

But it is our outer concious that denies....does not accept.....

"There was not a single happening in my life whether at that time

liked by me or not ,transformed in apositive manner....during that

transition it seemed sometimes that this transformation is gobbling

up my very nice qualities also....so i suspected to go wrong.....but

i found at very core this is the only way so let it happen....at last

i found transformation renewed everything all positively....

i realized this was the right time and right thing to happen....ALSO

I WAS WISHING THIS TO HAPPEN(NOT IN SAME PATTERN AS WE CAN NOT THINK

OF EVENTS WAY TO HAPPEN) BUT I WAS UNABLE TO INITIATE THAT

TRANSFORMATION...WE OFTEN WAIT FOR SOMETHING DONE BY DESTINY IN OUR

FAVOUR......" what we can do is to let it happen positively.........

I may be wrong in using right words.....pls correct me!!

Humbly....

Amit

-----------------------

The discussion abt fate & freewill never ends,anyone who is serious

in learning astrology eventually has to grapple with questions

regarding fate and free will. Is our fate linked adamantly to our

moment of birth or is there some wiggle room for free will? If so,

how much?

Obviously, astrologers can predict events, which proves there is

some

element of fate at work. But at other times predictions fail. This

may either be

1.a reflection on the astrologer's skill level,

2.the accuracy of the predictive system itself

3.there really is the elusive power of free will at play

the West, feel very uncomfortable with the idea of fate or destiny

and relish with free will. However, in India it's much

different,it's not uncommon to hear someone resign themselves to a

situation by simply saying "this is just my fate."

However, while on the surface it may appear that Western attitude

is

the wiser of the two, After all, how "free" really is our free

will

when we're limited by our past conditioning? Usually, we're such

creatures of habit that we can't even follow through with our new

year's resolutions of past . Our habits are often so difficult to

change. On the other hand, the attitude of resigning ourselves to

our

fate could reflect a level of acceptance and trust that could be

considered very wise.

Due to the differences of cultural conditioning, generally the

astrologers of India tend towards a fate orientation, while the

astrologers in the West tends toward a free will orientation. And

it's very easy to err on one side or the other

However, there may be exceptions like, In some cases, telling a

client honestly that they're entering a difficult period could help

them "surrender" and come to acceptance of their situation, which

could be a positive relief if they've made continued effort to

improve their situation to no avail,Like if u try hard for material

fullfillments in effected(bad) saturn period ,that much hard saturn

will come at u?

The path of action, represents "Dvaita" or dualism and is generally

a proponent of a free will orientation followed by modern seer and

proponent of dvaita Paramahansa Yogananda.

The path of surrender or non-action, represents "Advaita" or non-

dualism and is generally a proponent of fate orientation followed

by modern seer and proponent of advaita Ramana Maharshi

Both of the above conviction command respect in their respective

schools of thought

Hope the disussion continues?

Rahul

Rahul ji,

You very nicely put the thought on free will and destiny.

I once read an article on predeterminism....

which says Predeterminism is a higher concept leading to complete

devotion to God's Will.

Also ved says "Aham Brahamasmi"...hence Free will emanates from my

self...

Can not we characterise both free will and destiny at two levels......

1. Lower concept of free will

2. Higher concept of Free will

as well

1. Lower concept of Predeterminism

2. Higher concept of Predeterminism

we see that at lower concept of free will person cultivates arrogance

and false ego. definitely he loses a lot. He gets self

centered.Narrowness of concious being etc.

Here Destiny is there to teach him a lesson he needs to be......

And at lower concept of predeterminism a person dives into "TAMAS".

Totally ignorant ...superstitions....Lack of creativity......

Stagnant .... No Innovations...

He should be taught free will.......

well,here we know whether he is destined to move to free will concept

ensures his learning process.

SO there can be different levels of belief/practices on free will and

destiny.Lessons goes like....Free will...Destiny.....free will......

destiny.....so on..

what we are concerned with are the higher ones....

Now at every level of free will a person suffers from a different

level/kind of Ahamkara and other negative qualities which pulls him

away from God.

And same way at different levels of faith in Predeterminism person

suffers from different kind of ignorance.

As you mentioned of one concept which says abundant free will of

self..

But That free will is applicable to one who has realised himself.

Also we see the reaction of 'Karma'... every Karma has some good and

some bad effects essentially...

This realized soul will not allow committing something wrong....

or we can say He will know the outcome and will be ready to receive

after-effects.....

Hence we come to Infinite free will of God by complete surrender to

Him.......

Thus can we say

Free will is essentially a source of Destiny.And Predeterminism is

essentially a manner of free will to organise.

Words may be a limit......

Pls correct me........

Sincerely

Amit

Dear Mark ji,

You said:

When we close the eyes, and the mind or heart, how ever you want to

think about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of

silence.... a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects

of

attention, slip away.

In those moments, there comes the direct experience of pure

awareness.

This 'state' of awareness, is the source of all thoughts, and when

we turn inward, and fathom that deep reality, we stir within us, the

sourceof all freedoms and boundries.

I want to share......In these moments of pure conciousness

is it not so .....that.....

Both predeterminism and free will meets somewhere.....

Pure conciousness asks for nothing.......but it is a source of all

free will and action...what it wants "creates"......

But at the same point/level it accepts everything....it doesn't ask

for any change.....

We can see free will and predeterminism ...well organised to guide

our lives....

I wish to draw your attention to the inspiration from God which only

pure conciousness receive.....how can we put that......

i think that is free from both the concepts....

Sincerely

AMIT

Dear Amit, Inder, Rahul, & All:

Our reflections on 'free will & determinism', I believe, are

important

because they really do go to the very heart of our incarnations.

If we believe we can change things, that very powerfully helps

us, 'change'. If we don't believe, and instead believe 'more' in

fate, then, thataffects us, appropriately,

and we're found, 'waiting' more.

In Jyotish there are these

twonotions,.....'Doing'....and 'Waiting'.... Interestingly also,

these two qualities, or activities, seem tocorrespond with Jupiter &

Mars, for the 'doing',...and Saturn forthe 'waiting' or patience.

Also, I've found an interesting correlation between which people

believe more in Freedom or Determinism, and their various strengths of

Jupiter or Saturn. I know a number of individuals who have very

strong preferences for determinism, and coincidently they have very

dominant Saturns intheir charts! Also, the opposite is true. Those

who tend to have more success in

manifesting 'changes' and improvements in their lives, believe,

more, in the possibility of 'freedom', and they, coincidently, tend

to havestronger Jupiters, Mar's and Suns.

One friend of mine who has Sun & Saturn in her 12th house, and even

only 1 degree apart, has had a very frustrating time, making changes

andbelieving in herself, and therefore, fate and "Oh, we have no

power tochange", attitude comes easily to her.

Looking at 'both' issues, Nature or God, has seemed to feel

that 'both' qualities, 'doing' and 'non-doing', both, are important

in life. So it shouldn't be surprising to us if 'both' of these views

are

simultaneously 'right'! The problem is our intellects have a hard

time wrapping around thisissue, because intellectually, it seems it's

an 'either or' problem.

Either we're free or we're not.

The Truth may be closer to the simultaneously both reality, which

may not thoroughly get resolved accept in Consciousness.

Because in Consciousness, there is a point to where both qualities,

are 'transcended', and the Oneness of life, dominates.

Inthis 'oneness' Truth dawns, and it isn't just on an intellectual

level.

Let's say for a moment that 'both' freedom and determinism exist.

We can see both, maybe they both do exist, even if it's hard for us

to understand 'how' they both could.

To me, the realities of Saturnian 'determinism' and lack of

freedom, is real and yet, we might be able to use this to motivate

ourselves. We see countless examples of 'determinism' or 'causality'.

We plant a seed, and a very predictable 'tree' pops up.

Yes, we do have the freedom to graft that seed, and then a new seed

or hybrid, can be made, but the principle is still the same, the

future, still, pops up from the past.

I also think it's very helpful to accept the fact that in many

ways, we don't have a lot of freedom in life.

Those who are obviously 'addicted' to things, foods, repeating

certain mental and physical patterns, and those with strong

compulsions,.... certainly, would argue for 'bondage'.

But, they also have a strong wish and hope to get out of

their 'binding' predicaments, hence the belief in growth of freedom.

I loved the movie Matrix, where Morpheus told Neo, he was

completely in prison. "This world is not real. You are dreaming this

world, andreality is far from what you think it is."

This movie is very annalogous to 'life'.

We may enjoy some freedoms and some binding situations, but

ultimately, we are still 'slaves' to our very times, and local

places, and evenstates of consciousness. There are some who put it

this way.

There is only one true freedom, and that's in the nature of spirit,

soul or consciousness, itself. In other words, though we may argue

over this or that, 'relative,freedom or bondage'; in truth.... if our

very existence, is a kind of bondage....then we may need to try and

think, completely beyond the 'box' so to speak.... to come and find

another kind of freedom.... When we close the eyes, and the mind or

heart, how ever you want to

think about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of

silence.... a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects

of

attention, slip away. In those moments, there comes the direct

experience of pureawareness. This 'state' of awareness, is the source

of all thoughts, and whenwe turn inward, and fathom that deep

reality, we stir within us, the sourceof all freedoms and boundries.

Also what happens as we enliven this 'state of pure consciousness',

within, we interestingly enough, find ourselves more competent, more

clear,and more successful at fulfilling our desires.

This immediately, brings more of a sense of freedom and lack of

restriction and frustration then we did before.

As this experience deepens we not only grow in this delightful,

fundamental experience of inner freedom, but, we also grow in this

ability of manifesting change, in the outer.In future discussions I

think it might be fun, to look exactly at

how the Ved, itself, sees freedom and determinism. The Ved is full of

the Philosophy of Enlightenment and how it's the

only real freedom. But, so many of the different Vedic disciplines or

sciences, haveas their focus the liberation of particular problems or

focus in life, aswell.

Sincerely, Mark Kincaid

, as T <ast77us> wrote:

> Rohiniji,

> You touched upon a subject that I was debating in my mind, as to

how much of all our life is dictated by destiny, and whether or not

we have free will at all ,and when is it it more evident, and how do

we distinguish between "free will events" and "destined events" .

> Twins born with the same identical charts may not have identical

life, what caused that distinction? Also there are few other people

born with the same chart as Mahatma gandhi ( born aound same time ,

same location with same chart) have not become mahatmas.

> I would appreciate an answer from you, if not you can direct me to

a site which can explain this for me.

>

> Thanks and regards,

> Aruna.

> "Rohini (Crystal Pages)" <rrgb@s...> wrote:

> There are those who believe that everything about an individual and

> his/her life must be reflected in the horoscope. They truly believe

> that everything is destined. There are the other extreme that hold

the

> view that everything can be changed and indeed many do not believe

in

> astrology or that horoscope truly reflects one's experiences in

life.

> Then there are those that fall in between these extremes.

>

> Send instant messages to your online friends

http://uk.messenger.

>

July 29, 2005

Dear Aruna,

The very fact that this topic gets discussed every so often, nearly

on every jyotish discussion group -- and continues to be discussed,

often by the same individuals is very telling! There is no one view,

one final view that everyone seems to buy and be satisfied by. Often

remains a theoretical discussion with assumptions some of which

cannot be proven and hence remain unsatisfactory, like indigestion

from eating too much pizza. And yet, as soon as the indigestion is

over, people go and indulge in some more pizza and so the beating of

gums (or tapping of keyboards) continues.

Hope I am not sounding too curmudgeonish :-)

The problem is or at least in part is: there is no absolutely water-

tight combination in astrology that anyone can claim as happening

100% of times (including sun in leo or aries and what it can bring

about, for example).

Given that and the fact that life cannot be played in reverse and re-

recorded (first time around, live in TAO and make no effort, study

outcome, then rewind tape and this time make efforts and see how it

turns out). Even this simple thing would not be easily tested because

transits might change or something else could throw in the monkey

wrench.

In the same vein, your example of Mahatma Gandhi sounds very

plausible and given the birth rate even back then it stands to reason

that several others might have been born with nearly identical charts

as Gandhiji, however, have you really seen those other charts?

Without having those examples, it remains an assumption, at best,

does it not?

RR

, as T <ast77us> wrote:

> Rohiniji,

> You touched upon a subject that I was debating in my mind, as to

how much of all our life is dictated by destiny, and whether or not

we have free will at all ,and when is it it more evident, and how do

we distinguish between "free will events" and "destined events" .

> Twins born with the same identical charts may not have identical

life, what caused that distinction? Also there are few other people

born with the same chart as Mahatma gandhi ( born aound same time ,

same location with same chart) have not become mahatmas.

> I would appreciate an answer from you, if not you can direct me to

a site which can explain this for me.

>

> Thanks and regards,

> Aruna.

> "Rohini (Crystal Pages)" <rrgb@s...> wrote:

> There are those who believe that everything about an individual and

> his/her life must be reflected in the horoscope. They truly believe

> that everything is destined. There are the other extreme that hold

the

> view that everything can be changed and indeed many do not believe

in

> astrology or that horoscope truly reflects one's experiences in

life.

> Then there are those that fall in between these extremes.

>

> Send instant messages to your online friends

http://uk.messenger.

>

July 30, 2005

Dear Rohini ji,

It is really fascinating that to see that Both of you are beating the bush(with

no result).may be a way wardness!

'how do we distinguish between "free will events" and "destined events"' .

if not really putting my nose,I am some how destined events or those events are

those which we want to happen and contribute for their happening.

where as free willthey are external to us and as they occur we reconcile with

them.

The problem is or at least in part is: there is no absolutely water-

tight combination in astrology that anyone can claim as happening

100% of times (including sun in leo or aries and what it can bring

about, for example).

Yeah! I agree as Astrology is partially dealing about free will