2-a##d, ....Re:freedom & fate....? >> Mark Kincaid 7/3

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark,i appreciate ur knowledge on topics like these and

really like to discuss it with u and everybody who can

help me understand through scietific and spritual

ways.

 

But as u said ''our charts are indicative of what we

will be doing'':so isnt fate already decided?we are

doing (or made to do)what has already been

decided,there is no 'Real' input from our side. a##d

 

 

Dear a##d:

 

I think it's more helpful to realize that both pre-conditionings and freedom

do, both co-exist!

 

This may be hard to understand intellectually, but they both exist on a

sliding scale as a reflection of our consciousness, or beings.

 

On one level, where the inner is almost forgotten, we do identify ourSelves

so much to all the qualities and characteristics of our charts.

 

In those stages, it certainly seems that fate or our pre-conditionings, have

their 'way' with us.

 

But, because it is really just 'us' that have created this chart, then, even

though we may feel in prison, it's still really up to us to climb out of our

shackles.

 

And every step that we take in this greatest of life's endeavors, enlivens

the inner, literally, infinite potentials of the inner Self and Life.

 

See below:

 

 

 

a##d <myst_ak47

 

Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:46:56 -0700 (PDT)

 

Re: 2-a##d, ....Re: what happens to the soul after death >>

Mark Kincaid 7/2

 

 

 

Dear Mark,

 

i appreciate ur knowledge on topics like these and

really like to discuss it with u and everybody who can

help me understand through scietific and spritual

ways.

 

But as u said ''our charts are indicative of what we

will be doing'':so isnt fate already decided?we are

doing (or made to do)what has already been

decided,there is no 'Real' input from our side.

 

Yes, I'd agree, it seems like our charts have a lot of 'fate' to them.

 

But, each step that we take towards more and more inner freedom and mastery,

begins to free us from these contraints and limitations.

 

Its like u create a software and know how u want to

make it run,u give life to that software by creating

it and making it run...i feel like a programmed

software..whos made to run..wheres the real input..the

software doesnt have any choice

 

This is the difference between mechanical machines and human beings.

 

Because humans carry within us, by the nature of our very existence, the

infinite domain of the Self of the Universe!

 

In fact, we art 'That',....

 

is a great Vedic Expression.

 

Let's see, it goes like this...

 

"I Am That"

 

also,

 

"Thou art That",...

 

and even...

 

"All This is That".....

 

 

So, even though the life, runs through the predicatable software, as ¥ou

said, still, because 'we' are the original orchestrators of our software,

then there is freedom, and even free choice.

 

But, certainly if we seem to be devoid of this inner and especially manifest

glory, then we'll certainly feel like more boundries and conditionings

dominate...

 

But, with each step towards inner mastery then any of the limitations and

boundries of our previous, scripted life, becomes less and less.

 

In my own example, not only has the growth of enlightenment, helped me in

all the areas of my malefics, but as that inner Self, becomes more and more

known, then, all the many limitations

of life, in ignorance, become more and more insignificant!

 

 

 

 

,coz its programmed to

run in a certain way and thats how its going to

run,except that external environment and the way u

handle it can bring some changes in it.

 

Don't forget, it was us, that picked this program, to come to this world,

and run.

 

We 'chose' this life, and even though it has many limitations, especially in

the beginning, still,

this is one of the things we took birth to do, to accomplish, growing out of

our shackles, into the ever, shining light of the inner glory!

 

 

im not actually doing whats im supposed to be doing

coz im made to have a certain life,which cannot be

changed.

 

I understand. There are many limitations, and even conflicts and tensions,

that exist in the nature of our malefics, in our charts.

 

However, as we learn exactly how to #1 understand, and then, #2, transform

those same malefics into more balanced patterns, then, their limitations and

complications become less and less.

 

What Jyotish needs to understand, is that the nature of transformation and

growth is as important a part of life and even of Jyotish, as the fatalistic

aspects are.

 

If we were to go to a Vedic doctor, or Ayurvedic one, he'd never say, "oh,

I'm sorry, you can't improve or balance your ill-health."!

 

He'd instead, say: "Let's see, what's going on." (He'd feel our pulse and

identify the imbalances that are at the root of any of our health complaints

or problems.

Then, he'd give us prescriptions to #1, bring our pulse back into balance,

and even others, to help us eliminate the deep blocks that are literally, in

the tissues and the cells of our bodies.

 

Let's take an example of some pitta disease like rashes, or skin erruptions.

These are called pitta problems, but in truth, the¥'re also related to Mars!

 

Once we learn how to balance our pitta energy, and create balance, then

those erruptions are found, gone!

 

This means that the Mars energy of our charts, had to also become more in

balance.

 

When I was in India, in 1988, I was told: "Jyotish & Ayurved go hand in

hand."

 

I came back to the states, already fairly proficient in Ayurved, but then,

began learning Jyotish.

 

I found that together, they represent an amazing dual power for

self-improvement that together

will enable us, to transform any of the malefics in our charts.

 

In the future, we'll look at the malefics, of our charts, like imbalances of

the pulse, of the Ayurvedic doctor.

 

And, where Ayurved has much to contribute to helping us improve the

functioning and power of the body, I believe that Jyotish has much to

contribute to the mental side, or Psychology of life.

 

In the future, I think we'll realize that Jyotish is pure.....Vedic

Psychology!

 

And, with 'it', we can gain the path to the complete unfoldment of the full

mental potential of every human being, through the processes, of

self-transformation of those pesky maleifcs!

 

Iam whatever i am probably because thats how

HE's made me.and so goes the principle for

everybody.

 

God may have made 'us' but he also made us as expressions of self-destiny.

 

He made us, but gave us freedom of choice, to either create greater good, or

greater darkness.

 

The choice is up to us.

 

SO why appreciate or despire somebody what

what they are,coz its not their choice of wht they

should be.God has already decided if we shud live good

lives or bad lives..why credit mortals for anything at

all?

 

Both the 2 major traditions of the World, from the East and the West, both

believe in the principle, and the power of 'karma' and free will.

 

In the East it's called karma, and in the West it's described in the

expression: "as you sow, so shall you reap!"

 

Even in modern science today, scientists have discovered the inner workings

of the atomic realm, obey the Physics law: "for every action, there's an

equal and opposite re-action."

 

 

 

 

The soul doesnt have a wish or identity of its

own.this karma that we talk of,totally depends on how

god wanted us to be.When god is the one who seems to

be deciding good or bad for us,why shud a human suffer

so much?

 

In truth, all desires, wishes, and even thoughts, come from the Self, or our

souls.

 

This can eaily be proven. Take the thought of a mantra, for example, and

think it in the prescribed way, where it allows the mind to settle down, and

as we experience earlier and earlier stages of the thought process, we

arrive at the Source of All Thought, inside.

 

This is a state of pure consciousness where the path of mediation led us to

discover that we are 'that'!

 

Once we realize that 'we' are the Self, of our thoughts, and our feelings,

and all our wishes, then, we will begin the true mastery of life, where we

become as if the 'god' that we used to think, created us.

 

PS..... it is because our actions, are our own creations, that we suffer,

and as we choose to change and improve ourselves, then, our actions and

consequences improve!

 

This is the path of life, the nature of existence, and exercising self,

empowerment, shows us, that life is not pulling our strings like a puppet,

but it is actually, 'us' that has created, and is creating our lives!

 

 

 

Its already predicted before we are born if we are

going to be good or bad.Everything is decided.Cause i

have faith in true perdictions and i end up feeling

that regardless of ones noble thoughts,u cannot really

change things for good.Its like blindly following

something without have real knowledge abt it.I dont

know if God exists or Hes unfair-why does the soul

pain so much when theres need for truth inside.

 

This can easily be tested.

 

As we enter into, especially the inner realms, which you may feel is fated,

but, still...

 

as you have this inner experience, you'll discover that the truest nature of

life, is unbounded,

freedom, and a field and existence of unlimited options and possibilities.

 

As that becomes your own, direct experience, then, you'll revive this

opinion and realize thåt life is basically free, though it still obeys many

of the laws of nature, especially on the outside.

 

 

We talk of planetary positions,right?if my planetary

positions are good i feel,think do good,where is my

choice?and even the choice is dependant on planetay

positions,like mortal has no identity!

 

Our choice resides in the fact, that we chose this birth.

Our choice resides in the fact, that we choose, every moment to go this way

or that way.

 

But, once we've made our choices, then, it's predictable that we'll

encounter this or that.

 

But, at every stage, we can stop, in our forward march, even turn around and

go back in the other direction.

 

 

But, once we do, then it'll be inevitable that we'll encounter this house,

and that one.

 

But, at every stage, we're still free to choose, to stop, take a hike, make

a call.

 

And, the more we develop our inner awareness, then the more inner freedom,

and infinite mastery and possibilities, becomes our own experience.

 

 

 

There is no truth,no knowledge,we are merely

existing.Theres no meaning to this life,where theres

only pain and suffering and no truth.nothing is

permanent neither happiness nor sorrow,when theres so

much variation,we are living in a world of chaos.

 

Sounds like you may have a lot of Saturn, prominent, in your chart.

 

I've found a direct correlation in people's charts between their views of

freedom or fate, and the strengthns, or dominance of their Jupiter's or

Saturn's.

 

If Saturn is dominant then I see a lot of belief in fate and

pre-conditionings.

 

But, in those thåt have Jupiter dominating, I see a lot of belief in freedom

and choices.

 

In my chart, my Jupiter's in Pisces, which along with my Sun in Leo,

inclines me to believe and to act as if I have freedom.

 

My Saturn is in Virgo, however, and in the same sign as my Moon, and that

reflects my appreciation of the conditioned aspects of life as well.

 

My Guru in fact has helped me in this regard, because where I could

intellectually appreciate both sides of the coin of life; freedom and fate,

still I couldn't understand them both together.

 

Then I heard my Guru say: "Freedom and fatalism both co-exist like two

sides of the same coin."

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

--- Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid wrote:

 

> Dear a##d:

>

> I'd like to add a few thoughts to this discussion,

> especially from a Jyotish

> point of view.

>

> First I'd like to recomend the book: "Journey of

> Souls", which is a great

> book from a Psychologist, hypnotist, who interviews

> patients in the light of

> their hidden memories of when they were on that,

> 'other side'!

>

> His whole book is about exactly what life is like,

> both after or even before

> birth & death!

>

> It's the best book I've ever written in this regard.

>

> He interviews a number of people and they all

> express very similar

> experiences being on the other side, and what it was

> like and even how they

> choose to come here!

>

> I especially liked his descriptions of how people

> choose the paths, or lives

> that we are now, presently living.

>

> He describes in one part when meeting with one's

> spiritual advisor exactly

> what several future incarnations might be like, and

> how the person chooses,

> one or the other!

>

> That book really helped me in my study of

> jyotish/Astrology, too, as there's

> always these long, lengthy discussions about free

> will and fate!

>

>

> One final thought is that our chart's are very good

> indicators of what we're

> supposed to be doing in our present life, and if our

> chart's are indicative

> of our present level of evolution or consciousness,

> then life after may be

> about our future stages of evolution.

>

> I like the Vedic theory that life is a process of

> growth towards evolution

> and enlightenment!

>

> I especially like how Jyotish can interpret that

> growth in term's of the

> evolution or development of the individual planets

> and their degrees of

> strength, beneficness or Exaltation, even!

>

> Finally, I'd like to say, that what we do right now,

> may have a lot to do

> with our futures.

>

> Each step that we take to understand and transform

> ourselves, into a better

> 'us', may have a profound influence upon our future

> lives, too.

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Mark Kincaid

>

>

>

>

> Astrologer

> Teacher of Meditation & Ayurved

> /

> 1 641 472-0000.

a##d <myst_ak47

>

> Sat, 2 Jul 2005 04:44:29 -0700 (PDT)

>

> Re: Re: what happens to the soul after

> death

>

>

>

> Hey!thank u all for the wonderful information.i

> appreciate ur help!

> --- "Rajesh M. Kumaria"

> <rajeshkumaria2000

> wrote:

>

> > Well perhaps this site can help you:What Becomes

> Of

> > The Soul After

> > Death By Sri Swami Sivananda

> >

> >

> http://www.dlshq.org/download/afterdeath.htm#_VPID_6

> >

> >

> > Here's a quote from the site:

> >

> > "The soul which passes out of the body after death

> > is

> > termed `Preta', one that is bound on its onward

> > march to the Beyond.

> > The soul in its disembodied form hovers about its

> > original and

> > familiar places for ten days. It is in the form of

> a

> > ghost during

> > these ten days. The astral body takes shape from

> day

> > to day with the

> > formation of the head, eyes, and other limbs of

> the

> > Linga Sarira,

> > fed and nourished by the sesamum and water poured

> > out in libation

> > over the stones which represent the ancestors.

> >

> > The soul is fully embodied on the eleventh day. It

> > starts on its

> > journey to the judgement seat of Lord Yama, the

> God

> > of death. It

> > takes one full year from the time of death to

> reach

> > Lord Yama's

> > place. The path is beset with obstacles, distress

> > and difficulties.

> > The man who has done the most wicked deeds suffers

> > more. But the

> > difficulties can be removed and the journey be

> > rendered easy and

> > comfortable by the oblations and offerings given

> by

> > the son of the

> > deceased during the first year of the soul's

> journey

> > and by feeding

> > pure and learned Brahmins. The son should offer

> > rice-balls to the

> > father, without weeping. Death is certain for

> those

> > who are born,

> > and birth is certain for the dead. This is

> > inevitable. Therefore,

> > you should not grieve over it. The ten days' rites

> > should not be

> > neglected. The son should perform the Sapinda

> > ceremony on the

> > twelfth day and the sixteen monthly offerings. The

> > soul is sustained

> > on its onward march to the judgement seat by the

> > libations offered

> > to it by the son.

> >

> > The soul is scorched on the way by intense heat,

> but

> > the gift of an

> > umbrella by his son on the eleventh day gives

> > pleasant shade above

> > his head. The path is full of great thorns, but

> the

> > gift of shoes

> > helps him to go riding on horses. The miseries of

> > cold, heat and

> > wind are dreadful there, but he goes happily along

> > the way by the

> > power of gift of clothes. There is great heat and

> > there is no water,

> > but drinks water when thirsty, through the gift of

> a

> > water-pot by

> > his son. The son should make a gift of a cow.

> >

> > Chitragupta, the recorder of fact, the

> > Accountant-General in the

> > Kingdom of Lord Yama, informs the soul of his good

> > and bad actions

> > in his earthly life after the end of one full

> year.

> > The soul leaves

> > off its Pretatva or the garb of a traveller on

> this

> > day. He is

> > raised to the status of a Pitri or Ancestor."

> >

> > All the best( i am also reading all this yet...).

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Mark,

 

u r awesome!this explanation has almost helped me

have a clear understanding of the self-destiny.its

just that sometimes when theres chaos around prolonged

for a very large amount of time and theres no proper

guidence,every bit of energy that has always been

constructed to appreciated both sides of the coin is

banished.sometimes u just need someone to remind u to

appreciate and understand the whole process.mind is

confused though u know what are the right options in

front of u.thank u so much for ur patience to analyse

and help me understand.

 

but again i have these doubts.my saturn is in 6th

house,jupiter in seventh,am taurus ascendant,moon

virgo.i dont know much abt the affects of the houses

in my chart.

 

but if,according to a persons chart,its precicted that

he'll having drinking habits,commit atrocities,due to

his palnetary positions,is it possible he'll get a

thought to improve?hes probably born in such planetary

position so,he cannot make a good choice or think of

improvement.i believe if noble thoughts are totally

based on indivisuals,the world shud be a better place

regardless of what a planetary positions a person

has.to even get a noble thought,we probably need to

have something good in the chart.so here comes the

question again-if a person has a good chart,he will do

good,regardless of crisis-he shall try hard and

succeed.if a person has a bad chart-for example,ppl

addicted to drinking-how is their wish going to help

them or are they even going to wish for betterment?

 

soul is eternal,right?so is it that the first time it

was created and had the freedom to make choices,it

made good or bad choices and thats how the journey

started?sometimes i wonder doesnt god get bored of

creating the same process on and on,theres no new

knowledge.its the same thing we seem to study and

believe for ages and still knowledge is incomplete.i

dont think,a mortal on this planet has complete

knowledge abt it.

 

also an interesting thought.we talk abt planets and

its effects and we pray and have these remedies to

reduce malefics.then what abt the guys of nasa and ppl

who've been on moon and also exploring mars and other

planets.how do u think moon would effect a

person(astrologically) whos been on moon himself(at

that point of time)!!

 

--- Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid wrote:

 

> Dear Mark,i appreciate ur knowledge on topics like

> these and

> really like to discuss it with u and everybody who

> can

> help me understand through scietific and spritual

> ways.

>

> But as u said ''our charts are indicative of what we

> will be doing'':so isnt fate already decided?we are

> doing (or made to do)what has already been

> decided,there is no 'Real' input from our side.

> a##d

>

>

> Dear a##d:

>

> I think it's more helpful to realize that both

> pre-conditionings and freedom

> do, both co-exist!

>

> This may be hard to understand intellectually, but

> they both exist on a

> sliding scale as a reflection of our consciousness,

> or beings.

>

> On one level, where the inner is almost forgotten,

> we do identify ourSelves

> so much to all the qualities and characteristics of

> our charts.

>

> In those stages, it certainly seems that fate or our

> pre-conditionings, have

> their 'way' with us.

>

> But, because it is really just 'us' that have

> created this chart, then, even

> though we may feel in prison, it's still really up

> to us to climb out of our

> shackles.

>

> And every step that we take in this greatest of

> life's endeavors, enlivens

> the inner, literally, infinite potentials of the

> inner Self and Life.

>

> See below:

>

>

>

> a##d <myst_ak47

>

> Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:46:56 -0700 (PDT)

>

> Re: 2-a##d, ....Re: what happens to

> the soul after death >>

> Mark Kincaid 7/2

>

>

>

> Dear Mark,

>

> i appreciate ur knowledge on topics like these and

> really like to discuss it with u and everybody who

> can

> help me understand through scietific and spritual

> ways.

>

> But as u said ''our charts are indicative of what we

> will be doing'':so isnt fate already decided?we are

> doing (or made to do)what has already been

> decided,there is no 'Real' input from our side.

>

> Yes, I'd agree, it seems like our charts have a lot

> of 'fate' to them.

>

> But, each step that we take towards more and more

> inner freedom and mastery,

> begins to free us from these contraints and

> limitations.

>

> Its like u create a software and know how u want to

> make it run,u give life to that software by creating

> it and making it run...i feel like a programmed

> software..whos made to run..wheres the real

> input..the

> software doesnt have any choice

>

> This is the difference between mechanical machines

> and human beings.

>

> Because humans carry within us, by the nature of our

> very existence, the

> infinite domain of the Self of the Universe!

>

> In fact, we art 'That',....

>

> is a great Vedic Expression.

>

> Let's see, it goes like this...

>

> "I Am That"

>

> also,

>

> "Thou art That",...

>

> and even...

>

> "All This is That".....

>

>

> So, even though the life, runs through the

> predicatable software, as ¥ou

> said, still, because 'we' are the original

> orchestrators of our software,

> then there is freedom, and even free choice.

>

> But, certainly if we seem to be devoid of this inner

> and especially manifest

> glory, then we'll certainly feel like more boundries

> and conditionings

> dominate...

>

> But, with each step towards inner mastery then any

> of the limitations and

> boundries of our previous, scripted life, becomes

> less and less.

>

> In my own example, not only has the growth of

> enlightenment, helped me in

> all the areas of my malefics, but as that inner

> Self, becomes more and more

> known, then, all the many limitations

> of life, in ignorance, become more and more

> insignificant!

>

>

>

>

> ,coz its programmed to

> run in a certain way and thats how its going to

> run,except that external environment and the way u

> handle it can bring some changes in it.

>

> Don't forget, it was us, that picked this program,

> to come to this world,

> and run.

>

> We 'chose' this life, and even though it has many

> limitations, especially in

> the beginning, still,

> this is one of the things we took birth to do, to

> accomplish, growing out of

> our shackles, into the ever, shining light of the

> inner glory!

>

>

> im not actually doing whats im supposed to be doing

> coz im made to have a certain life,which cannot be

> changed.

>

> I understand. There are many limitations, and even

> conflicts and tensions,

> that exist in the nature of our malefics, in our

> charts.

>

> However, as we learn exactly how to #1 understand,

> and then, #2, transform

> those same malefics into more balanced patterns,

> then, their limitations and

> complications become less and less.

>

> What Jyotish needs to understand, is that the nature

> of transformation and

> growth is as important a part of life and even of

> Jyotish, as the fatalistic

> aspects are.

>

> If we were to go to a Vedic doctor, or Ayurvedic

> one, he'd never say, "oh,

> I'm sorry, you can't improve or balance your

> ill-health."!

>

> He'd instead, say: "Let's see, what's going on."

> (He'd feel our pulse and

> identify the imbalances that are at the root of any

> of our health complaints

> or problems.

> Then, he'd give us prescriptions to #1, bring our

> pulse back into balance,

> and even others, to help us eliminate the deep

> blocks that are literally, in

> the tissues and the cells of our bodies.

>

> Let's take an example of some pitta disease like

> rashes, or skin erruptions.

> These are called pitta problems, but in truth,

> the¥'re also related to Mars!

>

> Once we learn how to balance our pitta energy, and

> create balance, then

>

=== message truncated ===