In Response to Mark Kincaid - Open Letter, Part Two

[Guest guest]

Open Letter to Mark Kincaid, Part Two

 

1:14 PM 5/17/2005 Tue

 

Hi Mark,

 

Sorry for responding so late, but have been busy.

 

Much has been said by you and others, and I wanted the

chance to respond a bit.

 

Yes, there are much differences between you and I, and

it extends far beyond personal style, but it goes

right to the heart of the matter, and that is who is

more in line with the heart and soul of Jyotish.

 

We can start with your statements about "your

Jyotish"; an interesting terminology, since it has

long been accepted that Jyotish belongs to no one and

stands as a model to serve humanity. I don't "own"

Jyotish, but rather, my role is that of a custodian, a

guardian, a steward of the science, whose job it is to

see to it that it is passed on in as unchanged as

possible to future jyotishis. For sure, I have my own

observations and comments, even critiques, of Jyotish,

and I offer them in much the same way that

Mantreshwara offered his in the Phala Deepika. But I

don't own Jyotish.

 

Another poster suggested that we discuss our charts as

this might give us an insight to our relative

positions; and to be honest I have to say that we have

some things in common:

 

We both have a Venus influenced Lagna (you have Libra

rising, I have Venus rising in the Lagna)

 

We both Jupiter and Saturn in mutual aspect

 

We both have Mercury in fixed signs and Venus in fire

signs

 

We both have Mars in the 10th House

 

And, we both have the Virgo-Pisces axis strong in

terms of planetary activity

 

But, there ARE key differences; among them being, that

my chart is far and away more angular than yours,

suggesting that I make a "strong impression" anywhere

I go; on top of that, with my Sag Lagna, Lagnesh

Jupiter in the 10th and conjunct Mars and Ketu, I'm

far more likely to be "in your face" with my positions

than you, who probably favors a more diplomatic

approach and finessed-flair. My bright Moon in Aries,

along with my Sun in Scorpio conjunct Mercury also

speaks to this blazing directness.

 

Our Saturns are opposed one another, as is our

Jupiters, suggesting not only doctrinal differences,

but so too, social and even age/class differences. You

are a White, middle class sounding man from an area of

the United States where there is little contact with

anyone other than such people. You are nearing 50

years of age, which means that you came of age in the

late 60s and on into the 70s. The "hippie" stamp on

you is very strong in the way you approach things in

your writings, formal and otherwise, and it is well

known that the Western adherents of Vedic sciences

tend to come from the White middle-class/upper-class

sections.

 

I on the other hand am African-American, born and

raised in Inner City America; I'm well under the age

of 40, which means that I came of age in post-Civil

Rights Movement USA. My clientele tend to be from that

demographic, although at least a third of them also

are from the equivalents of such backgrounds in India

and elsewhere. So in many ways I can relate to them in

ways you may not (and have been told, many times, that

if I were to go to India, I would probably gain access

to areas there that most Whites could not).

 

So, I think that our charts and lives, do play a role

in the row between us. But, as I said earlier, there

are key doctrinal and philosophical differences

between us.

 

On several occasions, you have mentioned not only your

devotion to Mahesh, but your insistence that his

perspectives on Jyotish were paramount. This is not

the place to deal with whether or not Mahesh is or is

not relevant from a spritual perspective, but what I

will say is that I have not ever heard not one of the

more revered names in modern Jyotish - say, BV Raman

or KN Rao - ever mention Mahesh as a central and

important source for correct Jyotish.

 

In fact, I would say that, of all the jyotishis I have

known and communicated with over the years, no one has

said anything about Mahesh. Only you.

 

I don't like to get into the "my guru is better than

yours" stuff, but since you have mentioned Mahesh,

I'll mention my mentor, a 6th generation jyotishi

who's specialty was in gems by the way. But he never

suggested to me to "prescribe" such things to people,

for very good reason - that, unless you had

considerable monies to invest in gems properly, it was

really a fool's errand. He instead implored me to

focus on more commonsensical, economic methods to help

others, most importantly getting people to focus on

getting their heads clear.

 

Furthermore, my mentor - Vishnu Sharma, Ph.D - made it

plain and simple to me that if I was to be successful

as a Vedic astrologer, I simply had to be conversant

with all the classics - Parasara's Brihat Parasara

Hora Shastra, Varamihira's 6 classical works, in

particular the Brihat Jataka and Brihat Samhita;

Mantreshwara's Phala Deepika, and Jaimini's Jaimini

Sutras; Kalidas' Uttara Kalamrita, and other works,

like Jatak Parijat, Saravali, Sarvarth Chintanami, and

the various Nadi works, the Sapta Rishi Nadi being

among them. He stressed the vital importance of

knowing these works well, and at no point did he

mention Mahesh's supposedly profound views on Jyotish.

My teacher DID mention the importance of BV Raman and

KN Rao; he never mentioned Mahesh.

 

For that matter, Mark, no one I have ever had any

communication with - Das Goravani (who was a major

player in the Hare Krishna movement at one time in his

life), Rob Koch (who was a Hindu monk at one point in

his life) Sanjay Rath (whose father was a jyotishi and

who himself is quite spiritually enlightened) or even

Tanvir who we both know - has EVER mentioned Mahesh

within the context of Vedic astrology! All of these

men would say the same thing that my teacher said with

regard to the required reading and study of the

classics and modern scholars - but again, NONE of them

have mentioned Mahesh.

 

My point being, that if Mahesh was so very important

in this respect, surely these men would have known

about it, and thus I would have learned of it much

sooner. But that isn't the case, and the deal is, that

what you are claiming is NOT in line with what the

vast majority of jyotishis the world over recognize as

the proper practice of Vedic astrology.

 

And I know that you're attempting a "mix" of Western

Astrology with Jyotish; since I have an extensive

background in WA also, let me say that what you're

suggesting is at best tenuous if not outright

nonsensical. Some of our back and forths serve to

reflect this truth.

 

Put on top of this, the fact that Mahesh has run into

a bit of trouble in the past with students and the

like (including the Beatles if I remember correctly),

and it makes it that much more difficult for me to

take anything he says (through you) very seriously.

 

I also find his claims of being able to float off the

ground while meditating a bit fantastical, if not

downright foolish. But again, if you want to believe

in that and other things, that is your right.

 

You say that I'm not in a position to judge what you

do, but you are so very wrong, and proves again that

you either don't know the heart of Jyotish, or you're

deliberately trying to subvert it - for the very fact

that Jyotish is based on bedrock principles passed

down from generation to generation for centuries

clearly proves, that I AM in a position to make an

assessment of what you or anyone else is doing in the

name of Jyotish. And again, I'm confident that the

vast majority of the world's jyotishis would agree

with my position.

 

At the end of the day, Mark, what rankles me about you

(and others of your ilk) is your willingness to stray

from the basic principles of Vedic astrology in the

name of new age trendiness, taking this and hawking it

to people who don't know better, and then having the

gall to step off the pie-in-the-sky wagon with beared

fangs when someone has the gall to call you on the

carpet for perverting something that has existed for

centuries, all in the name of turning a profit (and I

cite as prima facia evidence you're kicking me off

your forum in private because your positions and ego

couldn't handle scrutiny). To be sure, in the end,

you're gonna do what you wanna do, and people can and

will spend their money and time on what they wanna;

like one famous person once said, "there's a sucker

born every minute".

 

But that doesn't mean that there won't be people like

me around to set the record straight.

 

Your Serve.

 

Salaam,

Mu

 

 

 

Mu'Min M. Bey

Western and Vedic Astrologer

Check out my site:

muminbey.tripod.com

"The Future of Astrology, is Here..."

AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological Thought Lives!

Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

 

 

 

 

Discover

Use to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!

http://discover./

[Guest guest]

I saw this posting in this list also. I copying my response

from the VA list here.

 

Dear List and Admin,

 

First off , I am sorry if I am going against the List rules

but I thought I must respond to this.

 

I am completely in agreement with Mumin.

"At the end of the day, Mark, what rankles me about you

(and others of your ilk) is your willingness to stray

from the basic principles of Vedic astrology in the

name of new age trendiness, taking this and hawking it

to people who don't know better"

The above is very apt.

 

I was a client(victim) of this guy Mark and I can say that he

is no diffrent than street astrologers(hawkers) in India. I think

he just knows some basics, but is very good at Marketing his wares.

 

Deepak

 

, Mu'Min Bey <mumin_bey>

wrote:

> Open Letter to Mark Kincaid, Part Two

>

> 1:14 PM 5/17/2005 Tue

>

> Hi Mark,

>

> Sorry for responding so late, but have been busy.

>

> Much has been said by you and others, and I wanted the

> chance to respond a bit.

>

> Yes, there are much differences between you and I, and

> it extends far beyond personal style, but it goes

> right to the heart of the matter, and that is who is

> more in line with the heart and soul of Jyotish.

>

> We can start with your statements about "your

> Jyotish"; an interesting terminology, since it has

> long been accepted that Jyotish belongs to no one and

> stands as a model to serve humanity. I don't "own"

> Jyotish, but rather, my role is that of a custodian, a

> guardian, a steward of the science, whose job it is to

> see to it that it is passed on in as unchanged as

> possible to future jyotishis. For sure, I have my own

> observations and comments, even critiques, of Jyotish,

> and I offer them in much the same way that

> Mantreshwara offered his in the Phala Deepika. But I

> don't own Jyotish.

>

> Another poster suggested that we discuss our charts as

> this might give us an insight to our relative

> positions; and to be honest I have to say that we have

> some things in common:

>

> We both have a Venus influenced Lagna (you have Libra

> rising, I have Venus rising in the Lagna)

>

> We both Jupiter and Saturn in mutual aspect

>

> We both have Mercury in fixed signs and Venus in fire

> signs

>

> We both have Mars in the 10th House

>

> And, we both have the Virgo-Pisces axis strong in

> terms of planetary activity

>

> But, there ARE key differences; among them being, that

> my chart is far and away more angular than yours,

> suggesting that I make a "strong impression" anywhere

> I go; on top of that, with my Sag Lagna, Lagnesh

> Jupiter in the 10th and conjunct Mars and Ketu, I'm

> far more likely to be "in your face" with my positions

> than you, who probably favors a more diplomatic

> approach and finessed-flair. My bright Moon in Aries,

> along with my Sun in Scorpio conjunct Mercury also

> speaks to this blazing directness.

>

> Our Saturns are opposed one another, as is our

> Jupiters, suggesting not only doctrinal differences,

> but so too, social and even age/class differences. You

> are a White, middle class sounding man from an area of

> the United States where there is little contact with

> anyone other than such people. You are nearing 50

> years of age, which means that you came of age in the

> late 60s and on into the 70s. The "hippie" stamp on

> you is very strong in the way you approach things in

> your writings, formal and otherwise, and it is well

> known that the Western adherents of Vedic sciences

> tend to come from the White middle-class/upper-class

> sections.

>

> I on the other hand am African-American, born and

> raised in Inner City America; I'm well under the age

> of 40, which means that I came of age in post-Civil

> Rights Movement USA. My clientele tend to be from that

> demographic, although at least a third of them also

> are from the equivalents of such backgrounds in India

> and elsewhere. So in many ways I can relate to them in

> ways you may not (and have been told, many times, that

> if I were to go to India, I would probably gain access

> to areas there that most Whites could not).

>

> So, I think that our charts and lives, do play a role

> in the row between us. But, as I said earlier, there

> are key doctrinal and philosophical differences

> between us.

>

> On several occasions, you have mentioned not only your

> devotion to Mahesh, but your insistence that his

> perspectives on Jyotish were paramount. This is not

> the place to deal with whether or not Mahesh is or is

> not relevant from a spritual perspective, but what I

> will say is that I have not ever heard not one of the

> more revered names in modern Jyotish - say, BV Raman

> or KN Rao - ever mention Mahesh as a central and

> important source for correct Jyotish.

>

> In fact, I would say that, of all the jyotishis I have

> known and communicated with over the years, no one has

> said anything about Mahesh. Only you.

>

> I don't like to get into the "my guru is better than

> yours" stuff, but since you have mentioned Mahesh,

> I'll mention my mentor, a 6th generation jyotishi

> who's specialty was in gems by the way. But he never

> suggested to me to "prescribe" such things to people,

> for very good reason - that, unless you had

> considerable monies to invest in gems properly, it was

> really a fool's errand. He instead implored me to

> focus on more commonsensical, economic methods to help

> others, most importantly getting people to focus on

> getting their heads clear.

>

> Furthermore, my mentor - Vishnu Sharma, Ph.D - made it

> plain and simple to me that if I was to be successful

> as a Vedic astrologer, I simply had to be conversant

> with all the classics - Parasara's Brihat Parasara

> Hora Shastra, Varamihira's 6 classical works, in

> particular the Brihat Jataka and Brihat Samhita;

> Mantreshwara's Phala Deepika, and Jaimini's Jaimini

> Sutras; Kalidas' Uttara Kalamrita, and other works,

> like Jatak Parijat, Saravali, Sarvarth Chintanami, and

> the various Nadi works, the Sapta Rishi Nadi being

> among them. He stressed the vital importance of

> knowing these works well, and at no point did he

> mention Mahesh's supposedly profound views on Jyotish.

> My teacher DID mention the importance of BV Raman and

> KN Rao; he never mentioned Mahesh.

>

> For that matter, Mark, no one I have ever had any

> communication with - Das Goravani (who was a major

> player in the Hare Krishna movement at one time in his

> life), Rob Koch (who was a Hindu monk at one point in

> his life) Sanjay Rath (whose father was a jyotishi and

> who himself is quite spiritually enlightened) or even

> Tanvir who we both know - has EVER mentioned Mahesh

> within the context of Vedic astrology! All of these

> men would say the same thing that my teacher said with

> regard to the required reading and study of the

> classics and modern scholars - but again, NONE of them

> have mentioned Mahesh.

>

> My point being, that if Mahesh was so very important

> in this respect, surely these men would have known

> about it, and thus I would have learned of it much

> sooner. But that isn't the case, and the deal is, that

> what you are claiming is NOT in line with what the

> vast majority of jyotishis the world over recognize as

> the proper practice of Vedic astrology.

>

> And I know that you're attempting a "mix" of Western

> Astrology with Jyotish; since I have an extensive

> background in WA also, let me say that what you're

> suggesting is at best tenuous if not outright

> nonsensical. Some of our back and forths serve to

> reflect this truth.

>

> Put on top of this, the fact that Mahesh has run into

> a bit of trouble in the past with students and the

> like (including the Beatles if I remember correctly),

> and it makes it that much more difficult for me to

> take anything he says (through you) very seriously.

>

> I also find his claims of being able to float off the

> ground while meditating a bit fantastical, if not

> downright foolish. But again, if you want to believe

> in that and other things, that is your right.

>

> You say that I'm not in a position to judge what you

> do, but you are so very wrong, and proves again that

> you either don't know the heart of Jyotish, or you're

> deliberately trying to subvert it - for the very fact

> that Jyotish is based on bedrock principles passed

> down from generation to generation for centuries

> clearly proves, that I AM in a position to make an

> assessment of what you or anyone else is doing in the

> name of Jyotish. And again, I'm confident that the

> vast majority of the world's jyotishis would agree

> with my position.

>

> At the end of the day, Mark, what rankles me about you

> (and others of your ilk) is your willingness to stray

> from the basic principles of Vedic astrology in the

> name of new age trendiness, taking this and hawking it

> to people who don't know better, and then having the

> gall to step off the pie-in-the-sky wagon with beared

> fangs when someone has the gall to call you on the

> carpet for perverting something that has existed for

> centuries, all in the name of turning a profit (and I

> cite as prima facia evidence you're kicking me off

> your forum in private because your positions and ego

> couldn't handle scrutiny). To be sure, in the end,

> you're gonna do what you wanna do, and people can and

> will spend their money and time on what they wanna;

> like one famous person once said, "there's a sucker

> born every minute".

>

> But that doesn't mean that there won't be people like

> me around to set the record straight.

>

> Your Serve.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

>

>

> Mu'Min M. Bey

> Western and Vedic Astrologer

> Check out my site:

> muminbey.tripod.com

> "The Future of Astrology, is Here..."

> AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

> Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological

Thought Lives! Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

@t...

>

>

>

>

> Discover

> Use to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it

out!

> http://discover./

[Guest guest]

I find your mail sick.

 

Whatever your view maybe and whatever be the difference your

difference to Mark's views, it is sick that u cannot tolerate anyone

else's views.

 

You maybe a good astrologer,as u claim, but since I have been in this

group I have never seen a single positive contribution from you. On

the other hand lots of people have benefitted from Marks's comments.

 

If u have so much time and energy, it would have been nice if u

helped others rather than critising and "setting the record

straight", as u claim.

 

Also u obviously dont know what a "Guru" means.

 

MS

 

 

, Mu'Min Bey <mumin_bey>

wrote:

> Open Letter to Mark Kincaid, Part Two

>

> 1:14 PM 5/17/2005 Tue

>

> Hi Mark,

>

> Sorry for responding so late, but have been busy.

>

> Much has been said by you and others, and I wanted the

> chance to respond a bit.

>

> Yes, there are much differences between you and I, and

> it extends far beyond personal style, but it goes

> right to the heart of the matter, and that is who is

> more in line with the heart and soul of Jyotish.

>

> We can start with your statements about "your

> Jyotish"; an interesting terminology, since it has

> long been accepted that Jyotish belongs to no one and

> stands as a model to serve humanity. I don't "own"

> Jyotish, but rather, my role is that of a custodian, a

> guardian, a steward of the science, whose job it is to

> see to it that it is passed on in as unchanged as

> possible to future jyotishis. For sure, I have my own

> observations and comments, even critiques, of Jyotish,

> and I offer them in much the same way that

> Mantreshwara offered his in the Phala Deepika. But I

> don't own Jyotish.

>

> Another poster suggested that we discuss our charts as

> this might give us an insight to our relative

> positions; and to be honest I have to say that we have

> some things in common:

>

> We both have a Venus influenced Lagna (you have Libra

> rising, I have Venus rising in the Lagna)

>

> We both Jupiter and Saturn in mutual aspect

>

> We both have Mercury in fixed signs and Venus in fire

> signs

>

> We both have Mars in the 10th House

>

> And, we both have the Virgo-Pisces axis strong in

> terms of planetary activity

>

> But, there ARE key differences; among them being, that

> my chart is far and away more angular than yours,

> suggesting that I make a "strong impression" anywhere

> I go; on top of that, with my Sag Lagna, Lagnesh

> Jupiter in the 10th and conjunct Mars and Ketu, I'm

> far more likely to be "in your face" with my positions

> than you, who probably favors a more diplomatic

> approach and finessed-flair. My bright Moon in Aries,

> along with my Sun in Scorpio conjunct Mercury also

> speaks to this blazing directness.

>

> Our Saturns are opposed one another, as is our

> Jupiters, suggesting not only doctrinal differences,

> but so too, social and even age/class differences. You

> are a White, middle class sounding man from an area of

> the United States where there is little contact with

> anyone other than such people. You are nearing 50

> years of age, which means that you came of age in the

> late 60s and on into the 70s. The "hippie" stamp on

> you is very strong in the way you approach things in

> your writings, formal and otherwise, and it is well

> known that the Western adherents of Vedic sciences

> tend to come from the White middle-class/upper-class

> sections.

>

> I on the other hand am African-American, born and

> raised in Inner City America; I'm well under the age

> of 40, which means that I came of age in post-Civil

> Rights Movement USA. My clientele tend to be from that

> demographic, although at least a third of them also

> are from the equivalents of such backgrounds in India

> and elsewhere. So in many ways I can relate to them in

> ways you may not (and have been told, many times, that

> if I were to go to India, I would probably gain access

> to areas there that most Whites could not).

>

> So, I think that our charts and lives, do play a role

> in the row between us. But, as I said earlier, there

> are key doctrinal and philosophical differences

> between us.

>

> On several occasions, you have mentioned not only your

> devotion to Mahesh, but your insistence that his

> perspectives on Jyotish were paramount. This is not

> the place to deal with whether or not Mahesh is or is

> not relevant from a spritual perspective, but what I

> will say is that I have not ever heard not one of the

> more revered names in modern Jyotish - say, BV Raman

> or KN Rao - ever mention Mahesh as a central and

> important source for correct Jyotish.

>

> In fact, I would say that, of all the jyotishis I have

> known and communicated with over the years, no one has

> said anything about Mahesh. Only you.

>

> I don't like to get into the "my guru is better than

> yours" stuff, but since you have mentioned Mahesh,

> I'll mention my mentor, a 6th generation jyotishi

> who's specialty was in gems by the way. But he never

> suggested to me to "prescribe" such things to people,

> for very good reason - that, unless you had

> considerable monies to invest in gems properly, it was

> really a fool's errand. He instead implored me to

> focus on more commonsensical, economic methods to help

> others, most importantly getting people to focus on

> getting their heads clear.

>

> Furthermore, my mentor - Vishnu Sharma, Ph.D - made it

> plain and simple to me that if I was to be successful

> as a Vedic astrologer, I simply had to be conversant

> with all the classics - Parasara's Brihat Parasara

> Hora Shastra, Varamihira's 6 classical works, in

> particular the Brihat Jataka and Brihat Samhita;

> Mantreshwara's Phala Deepika, and Jaimini's Jaimini

> Sutras; Kalidas' Uttara Kalamrita, and other works,

> like Jatak Parijat, Saravali, Sarvarth Chintanami, and

> the various Nadi works, the Sapta Rishi Nadi being

> among them. He stressed the vital importance of

> knowing these works well, and at no point did he

> mention Mahesh's supposedly profound views on Jyotish.

> My teacher DID mention the importance of BV Raman and

> KN Rao; he never mentioned Mahesh.

>

> For that matter, Mark, no one I have ever had any

> communication with - Das Goravani (who was a major

> player in the Hare Krishna movement at one time in his

> life), Rob Koch (who was a Hindu monk at one point in

> his life) Sanjay Rath (whose father was a jyotishi and

> who himself is quite spiritually enlightened) or even

> Tanvir who we both know - has EVER mentioned Mahesh

> within the context of Vedic astrology! All of these

> men would say the same thing that my teacher said with

> regard to the required reading and study of the

> classics and modern scholars - but again, NONE of them

> have mentioned Mahesh.

>

> My point being, that if Mahesh was so very important

> in this respect, surely these men would have known

> about it, and thus I would have learned of it much

> sooner. But that isn't the case, and the deal is, that

> what you are claiming is NOT in line with what the

> vast majority of jyotishis the world over recognize as

> the proper practice of Vedic astrology.

>

> And I know that you're attempting a "mix" of Western

> Astrology with Jyotish; since I have an extensive

> background in WA also, let me say that what you're

> suggesting is at best tenuous if not outright

> nonsensical. Some of our back and forths serve to

> reflect this truth.

>

> Put on top of this, the fact that Mahesh has run into

> a bit of trouble in the past with students and the

> like (including the Beatles if I remember correctly),

> and it makes it that much more difficult for me to

> take anything he says (through you) very seriously.

>

> I also find his claims of being able to float off the

> ground while meditating a bit fantastical, if not

> downright foolish. But again, if you want to believe

> in that and other things, that is your right.

>

> You say that I'm not in a position to judge what you

> do, but you are so very wrong, and proves again that

> you either don't know the heart of Jyotish, or you're

> deliberately trying to subvert it - for the very fact

> that Jyotish is based on bedrock principles passed

> down from generation to generation for centuries

> clearly proves, that I AM in a position to make an

> assessment of what you or anyone else is doing in the

> name of Jyotish. And again, I'm confident that the

> vast majority of the world's jyotishis would agree

> with my position.

>

> At the end of the day, Mark, what rankles me about you

> (and others of your ilk) is your willingness to stray

> from the basic principles of Vedic astrology in the

> name of new age trendiness, taking this and hawking it

> to people who don't know better, and then having the

> gall to step off the pie-in-the-sky wagon with beared

> fangs when someone has the gall to call you on the

> carpet for perverting something that has existed for

> centuries, all in the name of turning a profit (and I

> cite as prima facia evidence you're kicking me off

> your forum in private because your positions and ego

> couldn't handle scrutiny). To be sure, in the end,

> you're gonna do what you wanna do, and people can and

> will spend their money and time on what they wanna;

> like one famous person once said, "there's a sucker

> born every minute".

>

> But that doesn't mean that there won't be people like

> me around to set the record straight.

>

> Your Serve.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

>

>

> Mu'Min M. Bey

> Western and Vedic Astrologer

> Check out my site:

> muminbey.tripod.com

> "The Future of Astrology, is Here..."

> AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

> Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological

Thought Lives! Just send a blank email to panastroforum-@t...

>

>

>

>

> Discover

> Use to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it

out!

> http://discover./

[Guest guest]

Mr. Deepak,

 

So u think u are a level greater than Mark's that u can actually

judge and look down upon him? Do u really have that capacity? Mumin

atleast claims to have knowledge of Astrology. Who are u sir? What

are your claims, please "enighten" us. Have u written a sigle mail

which has helped "anyone" on this list?

Please remember when u point a finger at anybody, there are always

three pointing back at you.

 

Your mail wasn't appreciated. If u cant be positve yourself, then

there is no need to make others negative.

I reject the negativity that u want to spread.

 

MS

 

 

, "padmanu" <padmanu>

wrote:

> I saw this posting in this list also. I copying my response

> from the VA list here.

>

> Dear List and Admin,

>

> First off , I am sorry if I am going against the List rules

> but I thought I must respond to this.

>

> I am completely in agreement with Mumin.

> "At the end of the day, Mark, what rankles me about you

> (and others of your ilk) is your willingness to stray

> from the basic principles of Vedic astrology in the

> name of new age trendiness, taking this and hawking it

> to people who don't know better"

> The above is very apt.

>

> I was a client(victim) of this guy Mark and I can say that he

> is no diffrent than street astrologers(hawkers) in India. I think

> he just knows some basics, but is very good at Marketing his wares.

>

> Deepak

>

> , Mu'Min Bey

<mumin_bey>

> wrote:

> > Open Letter to Mark Kincaid, Part Two

> >

> > 1:14 PM 5/17/2005 Tue

> >

> > Hi Mark,

> >

> > Sorry for responding so late, but have been busy.

> >

> > Much has been said by you and others, and I wanted the

> > chance to respond a bit.

> >

> > Yes, there are much differences between you and I, and

> > it extends far beyond personal style, but it goes

> > right to the heart of the matter, and that is who is

> > more in line with the heart and soul of Jyotish.

> >

> > We can start with your statements about "your

> > Jyotish"; an interesting terminology, since it has

> > long been accepted that Jyotish belongs to no one and

> > stands as a model to serve humanity. I don't "own"

> > Jyotish, but rather, my role is that of a custodian, a

> > guardian, a steward of the science, whose job it is to

> > see to it that it is passed on in as unchanged as

> > possible to future jyotishis. For sure, I have my own

> > observations and comments, even critiques, of Jyotish,

> > and I offer them in much the same way that

> > Mantreshwara offered his in the Phala Deepika. But I

> > don't own Jyotish.

> >

> > Another poster suggested that we discuss our charts as

> > this might give us an insight to our relative

> > positions; and to be honest I have to say that we have

> > some things in common:

> >

> > We both have a Venus influenced Lagna (you have Libra

> > rising, I have Venus rising in the Lagna)

> >

> > We both Jupiter and Saturn in mutual aspect

> >

> > We both have Mercury in fixed signs and Venus in fire

> > signs

> >

> > We both have Mars in the 10th House

> >

> > And, we both have the Virgo-Pisces axis strong in

> > terms of planetary activity

> >

> > But, there ARE key differences; among them being, that

> > my chart is far and away more angular than yours,

> > suggesting that I make a "strong impression" anywhere

> > I go; on top of that, with my Sag Lagna, Lagnesh

> > Jupiter in the 10th and conjunct Mars and Ketu, I'm

> > far more likely to be "in your face" with my positions

> > than you, who probably favors a more diplomatic

> > approach and finessed-flair. My bright Moon in Aries,

> > along with my Sun in Scorpio conjunct Mercury also

> > speaks to this blazing directness.

> >

> > Our Saturns are opposed one another, as is our

> > Jupiters, suggesting not only doctrinal differences,

> > but so too, social and even age/class differences. You

> > are a White, middle class sounding man from an area of

> > the United States where there is little contact with

> > anyone other than such people. You are nearing 50

> > years of age, which means that you came of age in the

> > late 60s and on into the 70s. The "hippie" stamp on

> > you is very strong in the way you approach things in

> > your writings, formal and otherwise, and it is well

> > known that the Western adherents of Vedic sciences

> > tend to come from the White middle-class/upper-class

> > sections.

> >

> > I on the other hand am African-American, born and

> > raised in Inner City America; I'm well under the age

> > of 40, which means that I came of age in post-Civil

> > Rights Movement USA. My clientele tend to be from that

> > demographic, although at least a third of them also

> > are from the equivalents of such backgrounds in India

> > and elsewhere. So in many ways I can relate to them in

> > ways you may not (and have been told, many times, that

> > if I were to go to India, I would probably gain access

> > to areas there that most Whites could not).

> >

> > So, I think that our charts and lives, do play a role

> > in the row between us. But, as I said earlier, there

> > are key doctrinal and philosophical differences

> > between us.

> >

> > On several occasions, you have mentioned not only your

> > devotion to Mahesh, but your insistence that his

> > perspectives on Jyotish were paramount. This is not

> > the place to deal with whether or not Mahesh is or is

> > not relevant from a spritual perspective, but what I

> > will say is that I have not ever heard not one of the

> > more revered names in modern Jyotish - say, BV Raman

> > or KN Rao - ever mention Mahesh as a central and

> > important source for correct Jyotish.

> >

> > In fact, I would say that, of all the jyotishis I have

> > known and communicated with over the years, no one has

> > said anything about Mahesh. Only you.

> >

> > I don't like to get into the "my guru is better than

> > yours" stuff, but since you have mentioned Mahesh,

> > I'll mention my mentor, a 6th generation jyotishi

> > who's specialty was in gems by the way. But he never

> > suggested to me to "prescribe" such things to people,

> > for very good reason - that, unless you had

> > considerable monies to invest in gems properly, it was

> > really a fool's errand. He instead implored me to

> > focus on more commonsensical, economic methods to help

> > others, most importantly getting people to focus on

> > getting their heads clear.

> >

> > Furthermore, my mentor - Vishnu Sharma, Ph.D - made it

> > plain and simple to me that if I was to be successful

> > as a Vedic astrologer, I simply had to be conversant

> > with all the classics - Parasara's Brihat Parasara

> > Hora Shastra, Varamihira's 6 classical works, in

> > particular the Brihat Jataka and Brihat Samhita;

> > Mantreshwara's Phala Deepika, and Jaimini's Jaimini

> > Sutras; Kalidas' Uttara Kalamrita, and other works,

> > like Jatak Parijat, Saravali, Sarvarth Chintanami, and

> > the various Nadi works, the Sapta Rishi Nadi being

> > among them. He stressed the vital importance of

> > knowing these works well, and at no point did he

> > mention Mahesh's supposedly profound views on Jyotish.

> > My teacher DID mention the importance of BV Raman and

> > KN Rao; he never mentioned Mahesh.

> >

> > For that matter, Mark, no one I have ever had any

> > communication with - Das Goravani (who was a major

> > player in the Hare Krishna movement at one time in his

> > life), Rob Koch (who was a Hindu monk at one point in

> > his life) Sanjay Rath (whose father was a jyotishi and

> > who himself is quite spiritually enlightened) or even

> > Tanvir who we both know - has EVER mentioned Mahesh

> > within the context of Vedic astrology! All of these

> > men would say the same thing that my teacher said with

> > regard to the required reading and study of the

> > classics and modern scholars - but again, NONE of them

> > have mentioned Mahesh.

> >

> > My point being, that if Mahesh was so very important

> > in this respect, surely these men would have known

> > about it, and thus I would have learned of it much

> > sooner. But that isn't the case, and the deal is, that

> > what you are claiming is NOT in line with what the

> > vast majority of jyotishis the world over recognize as

> > the proper practice of Vedic astrology.

> >

> > And I know that you're attempting a "mix" of Western

> > Astrology with Jyotish; since I have an extensive

> > background in WA also, let me say that what you're

> > suggesting is at best tenuous if not outright

> > nonsensical. Some of our back and forths serve to

> > reflect this truth.

> >

> > Put on top of this, the fact that Mahesh has run into

> > a bit of trouble in the past with students and the

> > like (including the Beatles if I remember correctly),

> > and it makes it that much more difficult for me to

> > take anything he says (through you) very seriously.

> >

> > I also find his claims of being able to float off the

> > ground while meditating a bit fantastical, if not

> > downright foolish. But again, if you want to believe

> > in that and other things, that is your right.

> >

> > You say that I'm not in a position to judge what you

> > do, but you are so very wrong, and proves again that

> > you either don't know the heart of Jyotish, or you're

> > deliberately trying to subvert it - for the very fact

> > that Jyotish is based on bedrock principles passed

> > down from generation to generation for centuries

> > clearly proves, that I AM in a position to make an

> > assessment of what you or anyone else is doing in the

> > name of Jyotish. And again, I'm confident that the

> > vast majority of the world's jyotishis would agree

> > with my position.

> >

> > At the end of the day, Mark, what rankles me about you

> > (and others of your ilk) is your willingness to stray

> > from the basic principles of Vedic astrology in the

> > name of new age trendiness, taking this and hawking it

> > to people who don't know better, and then having the

> > gall to step off the pie-in-the-sky wagon with beared

> > fangs when someone has the gall to call you on the

> > carpet for perverting something that has existed for

> > centuries, all in the name of turning a profit (and I

> > cite as prima facia evidence you're kicking me off

> > your forum in private because your positions and ego

> > couldn't handle scrutiny). To be sure, in the end,

> > you're gonna do what you wanna do, and people can and

> > will spend their money and time on what they wanna;

> > like one famous person once said, "there's a sucker

> > born every minute".

> >

> > But that doesn't mean that there won't be people like

> > me around to set the record straight.

> >

> > Your Serve.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> >

> >

> > Mu'Min M. Bey

> > Western and Vedic Astrologer

> > Check out my site:

> > muminbey.tripod.com

> > "The Future of Astrology, is Here..."

> > AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

> > Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological

> Thought Lives! Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

> @t...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Discover

> > Use to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it

> out!

> > http://discover./

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

(Naturally), I do not know that happened between you and Mark and his

consultancy. But as I have observed, sometimes clients are not satisfied with

the astrologer or his quality of services. This happened to me also. Around 2-3

months back someone paid me for his and his wife's reading. I did his reading

and I could say that he was not satisfied by my reading. One reason was that

whatever all the astrologers said him was the strict opposite to what I said

him. I listened to it and then I explained the reasons for my position and

discussing his past I clearly justified my position and it (my predictions) was

actually better than what others told him, logically and even with respect to

his past. And also a contemporary prediction about him from those astrologers

failed too, at least as I was informed the latest.

 

Since he has not satisfied with my answers I also saw a possible attempt to test

my skills regarding his past events (Or may be I was wrong) which I did not

attempt fully. I hate to give such tests and it does not help people either, and

I never claim myself a very knowledgeable astrologer. I cannot blame him (or do

not either) for we fully want to achieve what we pay money or labour for.

 

Right before I would start his wife's reading, my PC started troubling a lot and

I have given him 2-3 dates of final starting of the reading but had to always

cancel them. At last he really got dissapoint at me, which is absolutely normal

and actually he showed a lot more patience than normal. And he very politely

requested me to refund the fee for the latter reading. Even that mail I received

late and then I asked for suggestion regarding the mode of refund, he has not

replied yet for last weaks or so.

 

Now, even though my predictions are better (to me at least) than others from the

past and current situation, I can smell that he is not satisfied and even about

the delay about wife's reading I was dissapointing. But I did not have a choice.

Now I have some very good examples of success whatever little my knowledge is,

but failures are also there. (This is an example, veyr extreme though.) So I

think both things happen here, where the theories, the success, etc are very

abstruct.

 

I am here by no way justifying Mark or supporting him, but I just wanted to

mention that sometimes people's impression are not so positive! :-)

 

Best wishes,

Tanvir.

 

 

 

What cannot happen, can never happen.

Which is mine, is forever mine.

 

http://www.jyotish-remedies.com - Vedic Astrology (Jyotish)

Predictive astrology with incredibly powerful problem solving remedies

Where relief and solutions are found

 

 

 

-

padmanu

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:30 AM

Re: In Response to Mark Kincaid - Open Letter, Part Two

 

 

I saw this posting in this list also. I copying my response

from the VA list here.

 

Dear List and Admin,

 

First off , I am sorry if I am going against the List rules

but I thought I must respond to this.

 

I am completely in agreement with Mumin.

"At the end of the day, Mark, what rankles me about you

(and others of your ilk) is your willingness to stray

from the basic principles of Vedic astrology in the

name of new age trendiness, taking this and hawking it

to people who don't know better"

The above is very apt.

 

I was a client(victim) of this guy Mark and I can say that he

is no diffrent than street astrologers(hawkers) in India. I think

he just knows some basics, but is very good at Marketing his wares.

 

Deepak