Guest guest Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Mr. Krishnan, You have obviously given a lot of thought to this topic. Please tell us what in your view and thinking should be the role of the modern jyotishi (amateur or professional) and how should they conduct themselves? Also, most people quote Parashara left right and center, but how come his one clear recommendation for Kaliyugi jyotishis, namely, that they use ashtakavarga not being followed as widely as should be obvious to even a beginner in jyotish? Would love to hear your views on these specific matters, should you have the time to discuss. Thanks, Rohiniranjan , vattem krishnan <bursar_99> wrote: > Dear Amitiji, > Apart from technicalities(like ayanamsa,sideral Astrology etc) due to developing nature of the subject of Astrology, even the users too have increased to such great numbers in Kaliyuga, as the procedures on timing of events as existing earlier and in old times have been discontinued.Now a days the importance of Panchang/Almanac considered as a journal of predictions(for mundane purposes) lost it's glory with the mushrooming of Astrologers in the present day context posing a threat to reliabilty and consistency.The interpretation of: > In Kaliyuga only a few will be true astrologers and the best ones' > pridictive power will only manifest to 25%" > I do not remember the exact sloka but the meaning was same. > might be viewed.As a result the Astrologer in the present day context is slowly substituting for a Psychologist.I can only view this change as the erosion in value of Astrology. > Members may be having other views. > krishnan > > amit_call <amit_call> wrote: > > Dear All, > I thank all the members for postings and throwing light on this > Ayamansa confusion. > This is accepted that Pridiction is one's own ability. > Also in a magazine of astrology i read a sloka which says "In > Kaliyuga only a few will be true astrologers and the best ones' > pridictive power will only manifest to 25%" > I do not remember the exact sloka but the meaning was same. > Also i want to add that some time back i met a Nadi Reader. > in Nadi i was amazed to see that they told my name,my parents > name ,some educational background,present condition and a little more. > also as per Nadi he made a chart and gave to me. > This chart is same as i get using Lahiri and KP Ayamansa. > Also one of my friend got a chance to meet a sidhha Purush in > Bulandshahar(U.P.).He is a young sanyasi.Looking at face he said > something about him..his problems and told that he was having Kaal > Sarpa Dosha. > I was very new to astrology at that time.I started reading abt KSD > and found that there was really KSD in his chart. > Now i see this chart is as per Lahiri Ayamansa. > Other Ayamansa give no KSD. > Well, its a matter of observation...... > I have to observe in a time span which chart better explains my life > and which charts Dashas confirms the timing of events. > As i am new to astrology hence i was hesitating to adopt this > approach. > Also i sing with your lines "Intuition is great reliable tool". > Thanks > Sincerely > Amit Kumar > > > , Amitabh Shastri > <amitabh_shastri> wrote: > > Sorry for the delay in response. But you're right. It is the man > behind the weapon who counts. The weapon is just a piece of metal, > wood and other ingredients of which it is composed. > > The difference between innimate and animate needs to be understood > very clearly. > > Best wishes for a happy and prosperous new year. > > Amitabh Shastri > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > > > > > Yes -- that is my view too, fwiw. > > > > rr > > > > , "tw853" wrote: > > > > > > I hope one can use what WORKS for him as INDIVIDUAL astrologer, > > while > > > simultaneously respecting the personal preferences of others. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > tw > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I hope I am understanding you correctly, that your position is > > that > > > > no specific ayanamsha alone can explain all that astrology (as > we > > > > know it) explains. That there are more mysteries that lie, > > Horatio, > > > > between the heaven and earth? If so, then yes that is what I > was > > > > saying all along, namely, that there are divinators that > > > successfully > > > > use different ayanamshas, and some that do not even use > > ayanamshas, > > > > so no point in agonizing over which ayanamsha is the only > > accurate > > > > one. > > > > > > > > Pardon my crude and cruel analogy, but the aiming sights on a > > rifle > > > > while of tremendous help in improving the marksmanship, would > > alone > > > > not make one an expert marksman! Ayanamsha is like that 'sight' > > > which > > > > definitely is helpful if trained at the target carefully, > > however, > > > > the marksman still must effectively learn to hold the rifle and > > > > improve their skills. > > > > > > > > Most practitioners (present company excepted of course!) in > > > astrology > > > > of any kind are at best figuring their way out of this dense > > > forest, > > > > even if they may not be brave enough to admit. Your sage advice > > to > > > > not make ayanamsha a big deal is well-given and finds accord in > > my > > > > own personal outlook. I respond only when I notice overt or > > covert > > > > insinuations that a given ayanamsha is somehow the best without > > no > > > > direct and ample proof for such, forthcoming. > > > > > > > > Happy New Year! > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hello Rohiniji, > > > > > The Astronomical studies have confirmed ecliptical zodiac and > > the > > > > movements of the planets along with planets was never found to > be > > > > unform.So we have all confusions added to the changes being > > > witnessed > > > > in the planet earth due unpredicatable characterstics of > > Nature.I > > > do > > > > not know whether I can put that even the science finds it > > difficult > > > > to say in precise nature.May be Ayanamsa correction is a > specific > > > > approach from the fixed zodiac of Aries.Westren Astrology based > > on > > > > accptable solar system too may be able to solve the riddles of > > > human > > > > life and anticipated events.Even we in our Astrology avoid > > Neptune > > > > and Pluto,westren Astrologers attribute great significance of > > these > > > > two outer planets.Still i believe that the kind of Shodasamasas > > we > > > > have developed can bring out comfortably various aspects of > life > > > > including the nature of old age through the aid of divisional > > chart. > > > > > Keeping these aspects in mind,probably it is appropriate till > > > such > > > > that we are not able to deny Ayanamsa,particularly Lahiri's > > > Ayanamsa > > > > as useful for our purposes but we do not discount other > > approaches > > > > and certainly not their efficacy in predictions. > > > > > Certainly Astrology,particularly Vedic Astrology to unfold > the > > > the > > > > future and past events will always remain to be connected with > > > > intution and if not the sixth sense. > > > > > In this we have umpteen examples including a 10year old > British > > > who > > > > could recollect from her class rom lessons to say the most > > unusual > > > > and catsrophic events like Tsunami. > > > > > Even Late B.V.raman makes it a point to refer to the accuracy > > to > > > > Brahma as the creator of universe. > > > > > Iam sure our distinguished members may have some more valuble > > > > suggestions on the subject. > > > > > Thanx > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > tw853 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini Ranjan, > > > > > > > > > > I fully agree with Vattem Krishnan not to venture myself into > > the > > > > > highly sensitive controversy of ayanamsa discussion. For > myself > > I > > > > use > > > > > new KP ayanamsa, while simultaneously respecting the personal > > > > > preferences of others. > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > tw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Amitji, > > > > > > For some time I had the fortune of getting associated with > > > > Phalit > > > > > jyotish through Rastreeya Sanskrit Vidyapeeth,New Delhi. > > > > > > In the committee constituted by the Govt of India even late > > > Shri > > > > > B.V.Raman was also a member apart from several vedic scholars > > > from > > > > > Benares,Haridwar and other places. > > > > > > Even in these learned institutions research on the > subjectof > > > > > Ayanamsa is being caaried out.Most of these are guided > through > > > Prof > > > > > Kalyan Dutt Varma,who is now on the bed.Govt India and > several > > > > other > > > > > Govts too have supported the research and even built mini > > jantar- > > > > > mantars to calculate the movements of planets and study the > > > motion > > > > of > > > > > earth.And these effects through research are getting > published > > in > > > > > Sanskrit.Infact even you can try from Tirupati university in > > > India. > > > > > > As far as relativity and percentage of usage of Lahiri > > > Ayanamsa.I > > > > > have no idea.So I go by your statstics.Incase you want to be > > sure > > > > > before you infer as : > > > > > > This is a *far cry* from "mostly" or 'universally' > > > > > > Let us be sincere to find the relevance of Ayanamsa in > Helio > > > > > Centric Approach mostly followe by the westren Astrologers. > > > > > > Infact what little I have understood from Hindu Predictive > > > > > Astrology through various approaches of Ganith jyotish,we > have > > > > three > > > > > different lagnas for harmonising the results arising out the > > > study > > > > of > > > > > natal chart in Astrology.Lagna,Surya as Lagna and mostly Moon > > as > > > > also > > > > > lagna.This approach has made us to depend on various > > mathematical > > > > > calculations and the relevance of Ayanmsa as a major factor > of > > > > study > > > > > was taken up. > > > > > > In the case of westren Astrologers and their philosophy in > > > > handing > > > > > over good results without elaborate rules and the approach of > > > vedic > > > > > Astrology based on the tripod(1,5and9) are to serve for > > different > > > > > sections of this great universe.We like or not the basic of > our > > > > > philosophy in Astrology is related to Karma Siddhantam. > > > > > > In westren thoughts probably they believe in an approach > > which > > > is > > > > > not deterministic but gives an opportunity for understanding > > what > > > > is > > > > > not possible but do not go beyond to say why it is not > possible. > > > > > > I agree with you when you say: > > > > > > many western astrologers who are considered to have been > > quite > > > > > > effective at their craft and they use no ayanamsha at all > and > > > > work > > > > > > with a zodiac that is off by 23 some degrees and not just > one > > > or > > > > > two > > > > > > degrees, and still produce good results > > > > > > Is it not that Astrology has also an intutional element > where > > > > some > > > > > soothe sayers as pointed out by you can off hand predict any > > > thing? > > > > > > In India Astrology is making strides with the revival > towards > > > > Vedic > > > > > understanding and to find it's relevance in modern times and > in > > > > > futuristic studies. > > > > > > Incidentally I believed late B.V.Raman and Shri K.N Rao as > my > > > > great > > > > > Gurus bout for whose blessing I would not have ventured > myself > > in > > > > to > > > > > these highly sensitive areas of discussions. > > > > > > Thanx > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > rohiniranjan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do not be personally offended but I have a bit of > > > problem > > > > > > with "mostly" in your statement. Couple of years ago on his > > > > > newslist, > > > > > > I had asked Mr. Rao directly about how such a conclusion > (he > > > had > > > > > also > > > > > > used a statement like "mostly" or 'universally') was > derived. > > > > Given > > > > > > that there must be millions of jyotishis in India itself > and > > > the > > > > > > population growing like a family of rabbits all over the > > globe, > > > > how > > > > > > can one make a statement like that unless a survey was > done. > > It > > > > is > > > > > > his greatness that he eventually responded saying that > > > somewhere > > > > (I > > > > > > think in Delhi or Poona) a group of panchaang makers (I > > recall > > > > less > > > > > > than 30 but I could be remembering it wrongly) had > > congregated > > > > with > > > > > > some govt. officials and through their deliberations > (details > > > of > > > > > > which I would be curious to learn but have no clue where to > > > find > > > > > > those or if those were even published or made avaiable to > > > anyone) > > > > > had > > > > > > come to the conclusion that chitra or chaitra ayanamsha is > > the > > > > one > > > > > to > > > > > > be adopted. I never got the information as to how many of > > these > > > > > fine > > > > > > individuals were actually jyotishis, or practiced jyotish > > with > > > > any > > > > > > success during their lifetime. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Rao himself follows and recommends Lahiri ayanamsha > which > > > is > > > > > > pretty close to chitra ayanamsha and I believe he has > > mentioned > > > > > that > > > > > > he got good results with the ayanamsha and that this was > > close > > > to > > > > > > what his astrological guru used/recommended and also close > to > > > the > > > > > > values that Mr. Karve the psychic who can tell your time of > > > birth > > > > > > just by looking/talking to you, produced. Mr. Karve, it > seems > > > > > looked > > > > > > at you, and gave a lagna degree and the date and with > lahiri > > > > > > ayanamsha this value matched. Mr. Rao's students probably > use > > > > only > > > > > > Lahiri ayanamsha but I have only interacted with a few so > > > cannot > > > > > tell > > > > > > about the ultimate preferences of all. > > > > > > > > > > > > What we can say that the vocal majority on internet > probably > > > uses > > > > > > lahiri ayanamsha. If this list is a standard reference, > then > > > the > > > > > > vocal 'majority' represents less than 1% of the > participants > > > > (less > > > > > > than 26 who discuss jyotish, not counting those that ask > for > > > > > readings > > > > > > only, OUT of some 2600 members). The same would be the > > > experience > > > > > in > > > > > > other list subpopulations (less than 1% talk, express, > > write). > > > So > > > > > one > > > > > > can safely assume that at least 1% or less of the > astrologers > > > > > (sorry > > > > > > Jyotishis!) claim to use Lahiri ayanamsha or a similar > value. > > > > This > > > > > is > > > > > > a *far cry* from "mostly" or 'universally'! > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind you, I am not saying that Lahiri ayanamsha does not > work > > > or > > > > > does > > > > > > or that there is necessarily a better ayanamsha. In fact > > there > > > > are > > > > > > many western astrologers who are considered to have been > > quite > > > > > > effective at their craft and they use no ayanamsha at all > and > > > > work > > > > > > with a zodiac that is off by 23 some degrees and not just > one > > > or > > > > > two > > > > > > degrees, and still produce good results! > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of myths and suppositions and claims > floating > > > > > around > > > > > > in the ocean of astrology about this or that being tge > > absolute > > > > > truth > > > > > > in the field of astrology in general and statements such as > > > > jyotish > > > > > > is good for predicting events and tropical better at > > describing > > > > the > > > > > > psyche, etc. As I have pointed out in some earlier written > > > > > articles, > > > > > > this is more a reflection of the person and his background > > who > > > > then > > > > > > went on to become an astrologer - the economist drawn to > > > > > forecasting > > > > > > the markets, the doctor focussing on astrology of the > > diseases, > > > > the > > > > > > spiritualist seeing the spiritual map in the horoscope, the > > > > > > psychologist focusing on the psyche as revealed through the > > map. > > > > > > > > > > > > The beauty is that the same little map, or maybe a few of > > these > > > > are > > > > > > capable of giving such a rich description of the human > > > > experience, > > > > > > the full spectrum of which has been beyond the scope of > > > > > comprehension > > > > > > of any one individual, whether astrologer, jyotishi, > > > > tarotomancer, > > > > > > scryer or some Guru yogi divine! > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "tw853" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear amit_call, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lahiri ayanamsa is mostly used. But KP ayanamsa is used > in > > KP > > > > > > > analysis and Raman ayanamsa is used in his books. It's up > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > preference of an individual astrologer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. In KP a little bit higher new KP aynamsa with > > > deg:min:sec > > > > is > > > > > > > advised to use. (KP & Astrology< Year Book 2003, pp 1, 88- > > 93) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ji Amitji, > > > > > > > > In Ayanamsa calculations after some kind of discussions > > due > > > > to > > > > > > > differences it has been agreed that scietifically prudent > > to > > > > use > > > > > > > Lahiri Ayanamsa.A National Committee constituted has also > > > > > > recommended > > > > > > > for adoptation of Lahiri Ayanamsa. > > > > > > > > Infact to add to list I also cite the research of Shri > > > > K.N.Rao > > > > > a > > > > > > > renowned Astrologer in Mundane Astrolgy. > > > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > amit_call wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > I have a confusion over Using different Ayamansas. > > > > > > > > Using different Ayamansas give different Charts. > > > > > > > > Lahiri,K.P.,Raman,Krushna...all are different. > > > > > > > > Please guide me. > > > > > > > > Sincerely > > > > > > > > Amit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~! 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