Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what happened would not have happened... Manoshi , "V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to theories :- > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory is faith, > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be fulfilled, as > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for me better > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right for me. I > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :-) > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I have one from > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit more, I see > that that was not the "correct" solution for the problem, but it > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that the kind of > data you are looking for? > > Sreelatha > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one soon comes > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even when > mispronounced > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts of gains, > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha everything, > ritual, > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much attention to > the > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a dying person or > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention what we put so > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never comes back. > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the beginning of this > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as most every > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery experiences, > > birth just happens! > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other instances? > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > Thanks > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Dear Manoshi, Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to actually scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the exact situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the original system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is still the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just change the one variable of mantra chanting.... Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be the judge of that.. bye Sreelatha , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what happened would > not have happened... > > Manoshi > > , "V. Sreelatha" > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to theories :- > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory is faith, > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be fulfilled, > as > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for me better > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right for me. I > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :-) > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I have one > from > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit more, I > see > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the problem, but it > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that the kind of > > data you are looking for? > > > > Sreelatha > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@s...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one soon comes > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even when > > mispronounced > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts of gains, > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha everything, > > ritual, > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much attention > to > > the > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a dying person > or > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention what we put > so > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never comes back. > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the beginning of this > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as most > every > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > experiences, > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other instances? > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But there can be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont work :-) Manoshi , "V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > Dear Manoshi, > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to actually > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the exact > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the original > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is still > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just change > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be the judge > of that.. bye > Sreelatha > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what happened > would > > not have happened... > > > > Manoshi > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to theories :- > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory is > faith, > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be fulfilled, > > as > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for me > better > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right for me. > I > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :-) > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I have one > > from > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit more, I > > see > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the problem, but it > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that the kind > of > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > <rrgb@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one soon > comes > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even when > > > mispronounced > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts of > gains, > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha everything, > > > ritual, > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much attention > > to > > > the > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a dying > person > > or > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention what we put > > so > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never comes back. > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the beginning of > this > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as most > > every > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > experiences, > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > instances? > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 .... further complicated by the human variables -- incorrect diagnosis and prescription by the consultant and inadequate or improper preparation on the part of the recipient. And these confounding variables apply to the entire vade mecum of remedies and not just mantras. It can be a slippery slope, unless one is slipping in the desired direction (slope determined by one's karma!) RR , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But there can > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont work :-) > > Manoshi > > , "V. Sreelatha" > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to actually > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the exact > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the original > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is still > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just > change > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be the > judge > > of that.. bye > > Sreelatha > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what happened > > would > > > not have happened... > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > theories :- > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory is > > faith, > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > fulfilled, > > > as > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for me > > better > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right for > me. > > I > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :-) > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I have > one > > > from > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit more, > I > > > see > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the problem, but > it > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that the kind > > of > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one soon > > comes > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even when > > > > mispronounced > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts of > > gains, > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha everything, > > > > ritual, > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > attention > > > to > > > > the > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a dying > > person > > > or > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention what we > put > > > so > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never comes > back. > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the beginning of > > this > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as most > > > every > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > experiences, > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! But then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's actually quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a remedy works when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, and in that particular order, then there is only ONE combination that produces a successful result, A AND B AND C AND D AND E Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only covers the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this boolean string. Let me try again, maybe A then B then C then D then E Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out of sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are MANY possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one possible way that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high school math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I think this is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5-factorial, which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this simple 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No wonder it is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, don't you think? :-) , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But there can > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont work :-) > > Manoshi > > , "V. Sreelatha" > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to actually > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the exact > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the original > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is still > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just > change > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be the > judge > > of that.. bye > > Sreelatha > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what happened > > would > > > not have happened... > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > theories :- > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory is > > faith, > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > fulfilled, > > > as > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for me > > better > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right for > me. > > I > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :-) > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I have > one > > > from > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit more, > I > > > see > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the problem, but > it > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that the kind > > of > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one soon > > comes > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even when > > > > mispronounced > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts of > > gains, > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha everything, > > > > ritual, > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > attention > > > to > > > > the > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a dying > > person > > > or > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention what we > put > > > so > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never comes > back. > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the beginning of > > this > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as most > > > every > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > experiences, > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Being totally math-challenged and terminally computerophobic (esp. after the virus attack sustained recently, or shall I say succumbed to!!), I think the problem here is that mantra is being taken as a single variable. If only it were so easy. However, the fact is that the test-subject (nativity) in this kind of scientific experiment would probably not just be using mantras alone. They would be, in true worldly spirit, be employing a bunch of remedies, and for good measure, probably from more than one jyotishi, simultaneously. But, please do not let me interfere with the discussion :-) RR , "V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! But > then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's actually > quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a remedy works > when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, and in > that particular order, then there is only ONE combination that > produces a successful result, > A AND B AND C AND D AND E > Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only covers > the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this boolean > string. Let me try again, maybe > A > then B > then C > then D > then E > > Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) > Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out of > sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are MANY > possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one possible way > that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high school > math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I think this > is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5-factorial, > which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this simple > 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No wonder it > is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, don't > you think? :-) > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But there > can > > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont work :- ) > > > > Manoshi > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to > actually > > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the exact > > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the > original > > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is > still > > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just > > change > > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be the > > judge > > > of that.. bye > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what happened > > > would > > > > not have happened... > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > > theories :- > > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory is > > > faith, > > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > > fulfilled, > > > > as > > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for me > > > better > > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right for > > me. > > > I > > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :-) > > > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I have > > one > > > > from > > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit > more, > > I > > > > see > > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the problem, > but > > it > > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that the > kind > > > of > > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one soon > > > comes > > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even when > > > > > mispronounced > > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts of > > > gains, > > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha > everything, > > > > > ritual, > > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > > attention > > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a dying > > > person > > > > or > > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention what we > > put > > > > so > > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never comes > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the beginning of > > > this > > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as > most > > > > every > > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > > experiences, > > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 "and only ONE way it can suceed"...and that too we are not very sure of...:-) Manoshi , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > Being totally math-challenged and terminally computerophobic (esp. > after the virus attack sustained recently, or shall I say succumbed > to!!), I think the problem here is that mantra is being taken as a > single variable. If only it were so easy. However, the fact is that > the test-subject (nativity) in this kind of scientific experiment > would probably not just be using mantras alone. They would be, in > true worldly spirit, be employing a bunch of remedies, and for good > measure, probably from more than one jyotishi, simultaneously. > > But, please do not let me interfere with the discussion :-) > > RR > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! But > > then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's actually > > quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a remedy works > > when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, and in > > that particular order, then there is only ONE combination that > > produces a successful result, > > A AND B AND C AND D AND E > > Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only covers > > the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this boolean > > string. Let me try again, maybe > > A > > then B > > then C > > then D > > then E > > > > Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) > > Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out of > > sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are MANY > > possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one possible way > > that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high school > > math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I think this > > is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5-factorial, > > which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this simple > > 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No wonder > it > > is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, don't > > you think? :-) > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But there > > can > > > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont work :- > ) > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > > > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to > > actually > > > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the exact > > > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the > > original > > > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is > > still > > > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just > > > change > > > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be the > > > judge > > > > of that.. bye > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what > happened > > > > would > > > > > not have happened... > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > > > theories :- > > > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory is > > > > faith, > > > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > > > fulfilled, > > > > > as > > > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for me > > > > better > > > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right for > > > me. > > > > I > > > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I have > > > one > > > > > from > > > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit > > more, > > > I > > > > > see > > > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the problem, > > but > > > it > > > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that the > > kind > > > > of > > > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one soon > > > > comes > > > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even when > > > > > > mispronounced > > > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts of > > > > gains, > > > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha > > everything, > > > > > > ritual, > > > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > > > attention > > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a dying > > > > person > > > > > or > > > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention what > we > > > put > > > > > so > > > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never comes > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the beginning > of > > > > this > > > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as > > most > > > > > every > > > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > > > experiences, > > > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 unless like in the case of different modalities, all claiming to work, there could be a common essential mechanism that gets tapped into to bring about the necessary desired changes. Yes, the black box of karma and jyotish and other matters spiritual. But roshogollas can be enjoyed effectively even without understanding the chemistry that makes them possible or even knowing what the applied chemist, the halwaii knows! RR , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > > "and only ONE way it can suceed"...and that too we are not very sure > of...:-) > > Manoshi > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > > > Being totally math-challenged and terminally computerophobic (esp. > > after the virus attack sustained recently, or shall I say > succumbed > > to!!), I think the problem here is that mantra is being taken as a > > single variable. If only it were so easy. However, the fact is > that > > the test-subject (nativity) in this kind of scientific experiment > > would probably not just be using mantras alone. They would be, in > > true worldly spirit, be employing a bunch of remedies, and for > good > > measure, probably from more than one jyotishi, simultaneously. > > > > But, please do not let me interfere with the discussion :-) > > > > RR > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! But > > > then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's actually > > > quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a remedy > works > > > when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, and in > > > that particular order, then there is only ONE combination that > > > produces a successful result, > > > A AND B AND C AND D AND E > > > Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only covers > > > the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this > boolean > > > string. Let me try again, maybe > > > A > > > then B > > > then C > > > then D > > > then E > > > > > > Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) > > > Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out of > > > sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are MANY > > > possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one possible > way > > > that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high > school > > > math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I think > this > > > is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5- factorial, > > > which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this > simple > > > 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No > wonder > > it > > > is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, > don't > > > you think? :-) > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But > there > > > can > > > > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont > work :- > > ) > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > > > > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > > > > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to > > > actually > > > > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the > exact > > > > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the > > > original > > > > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is > > > still > > > > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just > > > > change > > > > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > > > > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be > the > > > > judge > > > > > of that.. bye > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > Chatterjee" > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what > > happened > > > > > would > > > > > > not have happened... > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > > > > theories :- > > > > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the > other > > > > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory > is > > > > > faith, > > > > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > > > > fulfilled, > > > > > > as > > > > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for > me > > > > > better > > > > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right > for > > > > me. > > > > > I > > > > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :- ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I > have > > > > one > > > > > > from > > > > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit > > > more, > > > > I > > > > > > see > > > > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the > problem, > > > but > > > > it > > > > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that > the > > > kind > > > > > of > > > > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one > soon > > > > > comes > > > > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even > when > > > > > > > mispronounced > > > > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts > of > > > > > gains, > > > > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha > > > everything, > > > > > > > ritual, > > > > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > > > > attention > > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a > dying > > > > > person > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention > what > > we > > > > put > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never > comes > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the > beginning > > of > > > > > this > > > > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as > > > most > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > > > > experiences, > > > > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 This may or may not be relevant, but in the olden days, physicians used to pride themselves on giving the minimum number of medications to treat a given illness. It is the opposite these days. In fact in classical homeopathy, it was believed that one should give only one medication at a given time and work through its potencies before moving on to another. In the more recent two schools of homeopathy, this has become more relaxed with more than one medications being the norm and in one school, the recommendation (organism picks up the one medication it needs from the combo pill. I see astrology, particularly astro-remedials going that way too, after all a mala of 108 remedies would get all nakshatra-pada navamshas and what is in them. Like the navaratna ring of yester years. RR -- , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > > "and only ONE way it can suceed"...and that too we are not very sure > of...:-) > > Manoshi > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > > > Being totally math-challenged and terminally computerophobic (esp. > > after the virus attack sustained recently, or shall I say > succumbed > > to!!), I think the problem here is that mantra is being taken as a > > single variable. If only it were so easy. However, the fact is > that > > the test-subject (nativity) in this kind of scientific experiment > > would probably not just be using mantras alone. They would be, in > > true worldly spirit, be employing a bunch of remedies, and for > good > > measure, probably from more than one jyotishi, simultaneously. > > > > But, please do not let me interfere with the discussion :-) > > > > RR > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! But > > > then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's actually > > > quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a remedy > works > > > when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, and in > > > that particular order, then there is only ONE combination that > > > produces a successful result, > > > A AND B AND C AND D AND E > > > Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only covers > > > the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this > boolean > > > string. Let me try again, maybe > > > A > > > then B > > > then C > > > then D > > > then E > > > > > > Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) > > > Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out of > > > sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are MANY > > > possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one possible > way > > > that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high > school > > > math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I think > this > > > is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5- factorial, > > > which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this > simple > > > 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No > wonder > > it > > > is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, > don't > > > you think? :-) > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But > there > > > can > > > > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont > work :- > > ) > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > > > > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > > > > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to > > > actually > > > > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the > exact > > > > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the > > > original > > > > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is > > > still > > > > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just > > > > change > > > > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > > > > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be > the > > > > judge > > > > > of that.. bye > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > Chatterjee" > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what > > happened > > > > > would > > > > > > not have happened... > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > > > > theories :- > > > > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the > other > > > > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory > is > > > > > faith, > > > > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > > > > fulfilled, > > > > > > as > > > > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for > me > > > > > better > > > > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right > for > > > > me. > > > > > I > > > > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :- ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I > have > > > > one > > > > > > from > > > > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit > > > more, > > > > I > > > > > > see > > > > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the > problem, > > > but > > > > it > > > > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that > the > > > kind > > > > > of > > > > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one > soon > > > > > comes > > > > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even > when > > > > > > > mispronounced > > > > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts > of > > > > > gains, > > > > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha > > > everything, > > > > > > > ritual, > > > > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > > > > attention > > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a > dying > > > > > person > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention > what > > we > > > > put > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never > comes > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the > beginning > > of > > > > > this > > > > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as > > > most > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > > > > experiences, > > > > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Hi, Do remedies change the outcome... or rather prepare us to face the outcome whatever they maybe ? If it is the former, then we can keep searching and shifting till we find the right remedy( but even then we are never sure things happen because of the right remedy ). If it is the later , then we can do it here and now, and every remedy is effective. My thoughts...not meaning to interfere in the discussions Regards, Mahesh , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > > "and only ONE way it can suceed"...and that too we are not very sure > of...:-) > > Manoshi > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > > > Being totally math-challenged and terminally computerophobic (esp. > > after the virus attack sustained recently, or shall I say > succumbed > > to!!), I think the problem here is that mantra is being taken as a > > single variable. If only it were so easy. However, the fact is > that > > the test-subject (nativity) in this kind of scientific experiment > > would probably not just be using mantras alone. They would be, in > > true worldly spirit, be employing a bunch of remedies, and for > good > > measure, probably from more than one jyotishi, simultaneously. > > > > But, please do not let me interfere with the discussion :-) > > > > RR > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! But > > > then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's actually > > > quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a remedy > works > > > when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, and in > > > that particular order, then there is only ONE combination that > > > produces a successful result, > > > A AND B AND C AND D AND E > > > Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only covers > > > the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this > boolean > > > string. Let me try again, maybe > > > A > > > then B > > > then C > > > then D > > > then E > > > > > > Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) > > > Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out of > > > sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are MANY > > > possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one possible > way > > > that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high > school > > > math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I think > this > > > is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5- factorial, > > > which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this > simple > > > 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No > wonder > > it > > > is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, > don't > > > you think? :-) > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But > there > > > can > > > > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont > work :- > > ) > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > > > > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have only > > > > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to > > > actually > > > > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the > exact > > > > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the > > > original > > > > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome is > > > still > > > > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and just > > > > change > > > > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > > > > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be > the > > > > judge > > > > > of that.. bye > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > Chatterjee" > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what > > happened > > > > > would > > > > > > not have happened... > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > > > > theories :- > > > > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the > other > > > > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My theory > is > > > > > faith, > > > > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > > > > fulfilled, > > > > > > as > > > > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best for > me > > > > > better > > > > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right > for > > > > me. > > > > > I > > > > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :- ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I > have > > > > one > > > > > > from > > > > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a bit > > > more, > > > > I > > > > > > see > > > > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the > problem, > > > but > > > > it > > > > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that > the > > > kind > > > > > of > > > > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one > soon > > > > > comes > > > > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even > when > > > > > > > mispronounced > > > > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by accounts > of > > > > > gains, > > > > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha > > > everything, > > > > > > > ritual, > > > > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > > > > attention > > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a > dying > > > > > person > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention > what > > we > > > > put > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never > comes > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the > beginning > > of > > > > > this > > > > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and as > > > most > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > > > > experiences, > > > > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the other > > > > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Only bay mental speculation you will never be able to experience the powers of the mantras or understand their meaning! , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > unless like in the case of different modalities, all claiming to > work, there could be a common essential mechanism that gets tapped > into to bring about the necessary desired changes. > > Yes, the black box of karma and jyotish and other matters spiritual. > > But roshogollas can be enjoyed effectively even without understanding > the chemistry that makes them possible or even knowing what the > applied chemist, the halwaii knows! > > RR > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > "and only ONE way it can suceed"...and that too we are not very > sure > > of...:-) > > > > Manoshi > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Being totally math-challenged and terminally computerophobic > (esp. > > > after the virus attack sustained recently, or shall I say > > succumbed > > > to!!), I think the problem here is that mantra is being taken as > a > > > single variable. If only it were so easy. However, the fact is > > that > > > the test-subject (nativity) in this kind of scientific experiment > > > would probably not just be using mantras alone. They would be, in > > > true worldly spirit, be employing a bunch of remedies, and for > > good > > > measure, probably from more than one jyotishi, simultaneously. > > > > > > But, please do not let me interfere with the discussion :-) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! > But > > > > then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's > actually > > > > quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a remedy > > works > > > > when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, and > in > > > > that particular order, then there is only ONE combination that > > > > produces a successful result, > > > > A AND B AND C AND D AND E > > > > Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only covers > > > > the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this > > boolean > > > > string. Let me try again, maybe > > > > A > > > > then B > > > > then C > > > > then D > > > > then E > > > > > > > > Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) > > > > Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out of > > > > sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are MANY > > > > possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one possible > > way > > > > that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high > > school > > > > math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I think > > this > > > > is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5- > factorial, > > > > which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this > > simple > > > > 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No > > wonder > > > it > > > > is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, > > don't > > > > you think? :-) > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But > > there > > > > can > > > > > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont > > work :- > > > ) > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have > only > > > > > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to > > > > actually > > > > > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the > > exact > > > > > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in the > > > > original > > > > > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the outcome > is > > > > still > > > > > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and > just > > > > > change > > > > > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can be > > the > > > > > judge > > > > > > of that.. bye > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > > Chatterjee" > > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what > > > happened > > > > > > would > > > > > > > not have happened... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > > > > > theories :- > > > > > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the > > other > > > > > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My > theory > > is > > > > > > faith, > > > > > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will be > > > > > fulfilled, > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best > for > > me > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are right > > for > > > > > me. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your question. :- > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? I > > have > > > > > one > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a > bit > > > > more, > > > > > I > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the > > problem, > > > > but > > > > > it > > > > > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is that > > the > > > > kind > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In , "rohiniranjan" > > > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) one > > soon > > > > > > comes > > > > > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even > > when > > > > > > > > mispronounced > > > > > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by > accounts > > of > > > > > > gains, > > > > > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha > > > > everything, > > > > > > > > ritual, > > > > > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too much > > > > > attention > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a > > dying > > > > > > person > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention > > what > > > we > > > > > put > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never > > comes > > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the > > beginning > > > of > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was done > > > > > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy and > as > > > > most > > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first delivery > > > > > > > experiences, > > > > > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the > other > > > > > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, please! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 It is safe to say that most of us accept that to be true :-) Like I was mentioning to someone the other day, if *everyone* takes a solemn vow to talk (in brief) only about that which one has directly experienced, internet will grow eerily silent and all those ISPs will lose their livelihood. That would be a global disaster ;-) RR , "Shad" <waterpowers> wrote: > > > Only bay mental speculation you will never be able to experience the > powers of the mantras or understand their meaning! > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > > > unless like in the case of different modalities, all claiming to > > work, there could be a common essential mechanism that gets tapped > > into to bring about the necessary desired changes. > > > > Yes, the black box of karma and jyotish and other matters > spiritual. > > > > But roshogollas can be enjoyed effectively even without > understanding > > the chemistry that makes them possible or even knowing what the > > applied chemist, the halwaii knows! > > > > RR > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > "and only ONE way it can suceed"...and that too we are not very > > sure > > > of...:-) > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Being totally math-challenged and terminally computerophobic > > (esp. > > > > after the virus attack sustained recently, or shall I say > > > succumbed > > > > to!!), I think the problem here is that mantra is being taken > as > > a > > > > single variable. If only it were so easy. However, the fact is > > > that > > > > the test-subject (nativity) in this kind of scientific > experiment > > > > would probably not just be using mantras alone. They would be, > in > > > > true worldly spirit, be employing a bunch of remedies, and for > > > good > > > > measure, probably from more than one jyotishi, simultaneously. > > > > > > > > But, please do not let me interfere with the discussion :-) > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > :-) True, it IS much easier to prove the converse, isn't it! > > But > > > > > then, if you look at it as a mathematical problem, it's > > actually > > > > > quite easy to see why this is so. If we suppose that a > remedy > > > works > > > > > when someone does A, B, C, D and E .... does all of them, > and > > in > > > > > that particular order, then there is only ONE combination > that > > > > > produces a successful result, > > > > > A AND B AND C AND D AND E > > > > > Actually this does not quite cover it, since this only > covers > > > > > the "all" portion. There is no concept of sequence in this > > > boolean > > > > > string. Let me try again, maybe > > > > > A > > > > > then B > > > > > then C > > > > > then D > > > > > then E > > > > > > > > > > Software gurus on the forum can help us here :-) > > > > > Anyway, my point is that if a single step is omitted, or out > of > > > > > sequence, then the remedy fails. In other words, there are > MANY > > > > > possible ways that the remedy can fail, but only one > possible > > > way > > > > > that it can be successful! I have forgotten most of my high > > > school > > > > > math, so maybe a math whiz can help us calculate this. I > think > > > this > > > > > is a permutation with the number of solutions being 5- > > factorial, > > > > > which gives us 120 solutions. Imagine ... 119 ways that this > > > simple > > > > > 5 step remedy can fail, and only ONE way it can suceed! No > > > wonder > > > > it > > > > > is so easy to stumble upon one or the other ways of failing, > > > don't > > > > > you think? :-) > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > Chatterjee" > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly Lata...it cannot be proved that remedies work. But > > > there > > > > > can > > > > > > be 1000 instances given which can prove that remedies dont > > > work :- > > > > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Manoshi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, the difficulty there is, how can you tell? I have > > only > > > > > > > experienced the situation where the remedy worked.... to > > > > > actually > > > > > > > scientifically test this, you would have to recreate the > > > exact > > > > > > > situation, with ALL the factors that were involved in > the > > > > > original > > > > > > > system and NOT perform the remedy, and see if the > outcome > > is > > > > > still > > > > > > > the same, right? Keep the other variables constant, and > > just > > > > > > change > > > > > > > the one variable of mantra chanting.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gotta go now, I'll describe the situation, and you can > be > > > the > > > > > > judge > > > > > > > of that.. bye > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > > > Chatterjee" > > > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you mean, if you had not done the remedy that what > > > > happened > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > not have happened... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. > Sreelatha" > > > > > > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniranjan Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question is hard to answer without resorting to > > > > > > theories :- > > > > > > > > > ). "What makes it come alive, what is missing in the > > > other > > > > > > > > > instances?" is somewhat subjective, is it not? My > > theory > > > is > > > > > > > faith, > > > > > > > > > and by that I don't mean faith that my desire will > be > > > > > > fulfilled, > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > much as faith that a higher power knows what is best > > for > > > me > > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > > than I do, and will fulfil those desires that are > right > > > for > > > > > > me. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > know, I know, that doesn't help answer your > question. :- > > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you looking for instances where a mantra worked? > I > > > have > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > a couple of years back, and now that I have learnt a > > bit > > > > > more, > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > > > that that was not the "correct" solution for the > > > problem, > > > > > but > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > still worked :-). (Not that I'm complaining!) Is > that > > > the > > > > > kind > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > data you are looking for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreelatha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dearly beloved, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one is patient and listening actively (=open) > one > > > soon > > > > > > > comes > > > > > > > > > > across many versions of the same mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, one comes across instances where mantras even > > > when > > > > > > > > > mispronounced > > > > > > > > > > or grammatically incorrect are accompanied by > > accounts > > > of > > > > > > > gains, > > > > > > > > > > spiritual and otherwise, desired and some > unexpected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, there are those other instances of shuddha > > > > > everything, > > > > > > > > > ritual, > > > > > > > > > > and otherwise but zilch in the area of results! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is this so? What is missing when we pay too > much > > > > > > attention > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > form and structure of mantra, like giving CPR to a > > > dying > > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > even an already dead person. Despite our attention > > > what > > > > we > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > much energy into reviving, just goes away or never > > > comes > > > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And those other instances, referred to in the > > > beginning > > > > of > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > message. Like a childbirth, where everything was > done > > > > > > > > > > inappropriately, but the child was born healthy > and > > as > > > > > most > > > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > > > medical student conducting his or her first > delivery > > > > > > > > experiences, > > > > > > > > > > birth just happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes it come alive, what is missing in the > > other > > > > > > > instances? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experiences as opposed to rules and theories, > please! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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