2-Amit, INder, Rahul & All, > Mark Kincaid re. Fate vs Free Will-East VS West Approach! 10/21

[Guest guest]

Dear Amit, Inder, Rahul, & All:

 

Our reflections on 'free will & determinism', I believe, are important

because they really do go to the very heart of our incarnations.

 

If we believe we can change things, that very powerfully helps us, 'change'.

If we don't believe, and instead believe 'more' in fate, then, that affects

us, appropriately,

and we're found, 'waiting' more.

 

In Jyotish there are these two notions,.....'Doing'....and 'Waiting'....

 

Interestingly also, these two qualities, or activities, seem to correspond

with Jupiter & Mars, for the 'doing',...and Saturn for the 'waiting' or

patience.

 

Also, I've found an interesting correlation between which people believe

more in Freedom or Determinism, and their various strengths of Jupiter or

Saturn.

 

I know a number of individuals who have very strong preferences for

determinism, and coincidently they have very dominant Saturns in their

charts!

 

Also, the opposite is true. Those who tend to have more success in

manifesting 'changes' and improvements in their lives, believe, more, in the

possibility of 'freedom', and they, coincidently, tend to have stronger

Jupiters, Mar's and Suns.

 

One friend of mine who has Sun & Saturn in her 12th house, and even only 1

degree apart, has had a very frustrating time, making changes and believing

in herself, and therefore, fate and "Oh, we have no power to change",

attitude comes easily to her.

 

Looking at 'both' issues, Nature or God, has seemed to feel that 'both'

qualities, 'doing' and 'non-doing', both, are important in life.

 

So it shouldn't be surprising to us if 'both' of these views are

simultaneously 'right'!

 

The problem is our intellects have a hard time wrapping around this issue,

because intellectually, it seems it's an 'either or' problem.

 

Either we're free or we're not.

 

The Truth may be closer to the simultaneously both reality, which may not

thoroughly get resolved accept in Consciousness.

 

Because in Consciousness, there is a point to where both qualities, are

'transcended', and the Oneness of life, dominates. In this 'oneness' Truth

dawns, and it isn't just on an intellectual level.

 

Let's say for a moment that 'both' freedom and determinism exist.

 

We can see both, maybe they both do exist, even if it's hard for us to

understand 'how' they both could.

 

To me, the realities of Saturnian 'determinism' and lack of freedom, is real

and yet, we might be able to use this to motivate ourselves.

 

We see countless examples of 'determinism' or 'causality'.

 

We plant a seed, and a very predictable 'tree' pops up.

 

Yes, we do have the freedom to graft that seed, and then a new seed or

hybrid, can be made, but the principle is still the same, the future, still,

pops up from the past.

 

I also think it's very helpful to accept the fact that in many ways, we

don't have a lot of freedom in life.

 

Those who are obviously 'addicted' to things, foods, repeating certain

mental and physical patterns, and those with strong compulsions,....

certainly, would argue for 'bondage'.

 

But, they also have a strong wish and hope to get out of their 'binding'

predicaments, hence the belief in growth of freedom.

 

I loved the movie Matrix, where Morpheus told Neo, he was completely in

prison. "This world is not real. You are dreaming this world, and reality

is far from what you think it is."

 

This movie is very annalogous to 'life'.

 

We may enjoy some freedoms and some binding situations, but ultimately, we

are still 'slaves' to our very times, and local places, and even states of

consciousness.

 

There are some who put it this way.

 

There is only one true freedom, and that's in the nature of spirit, soul or

consciousness, itself.

 

In other words, though we may argue over this or that, 'relative, freedom or

bondage';

in truth....

if our very existence, is a kind of bondage....then we may need to try and

think, completely beyond the 'box' so to speak....

 

to come and find another kind of freedom....

 

 

When we close the eyes, and the mind or heart, how ever you want to think

about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of silence....

a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects of attention, slip

away.

 

In those moments, there comes the direct experience of pure awareness.

 

This 'state' of awareness, is the source of all thoughts, and when we turn

inward, and fathom that deep reality, we stir within us, the source of all

freedoms and boundries.

 

Also what happens as we enliven this 'state of pure consciousness', within,

we interestingly enough, find ourselves more competent, more clear, and more

successful at fulfilling our desires.

 

This immediately, brings more of a sense of freedom and lack of restriction

and frustration then we did before.

 

As this experience deepens we not only grow in this delightful, fundamental

experience of inner freedom, but, we also grow in this ability of

manifesting change, in the outer.

 

 

 

In future discussions I think it might be fun, to look exactly at how the

Ved, itself, sees freedom and determinism.

 

The Ved is full of the Philosophy of Enlightenment and how it's the only

real freedom.

 

But, so many of the different Vedic disciplines or sciences, have as their

focus the liberation of particular problems or focus in life, as well.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"rahul_10uday" <rahul_10uday

 

Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:36:14 -0000

 

Fate(Advaita) VS Free Will(Dvaita) -East VS West Approach!

 

 

 

The discussion abt fate & freewill never ends,anyone who is serious

in learning astrology eventually has to grapple with questions

regarding fate and free will. Is our fate linked adamantly to our

moment of birth or is there some wiggle room for free will? If so,

how much?

 

Obviously, astrologers can predict events, which proves there is some

element of fate at work. But at other times predictions fail. This

may either be

1.a reflection on the astrologer's skill level,

2.the accuracy of the predictive system itself

3.there really is the elusive power of free will at play

 

the West, feel very uncomfortable with the idea of fate or destiny

and relish with free will. However, in India it's much

different,it's not uncommon to hear someone resign themselves to a

situation by simply saying "this is just my fate."

 

However, while on the surface it may appear that Western attitude is

the wiser of the two, After all, how "free" really is our free will

 

when we're limited by our past conditioning? Usually, we're such

creatures of habit that we can't even follow through with our new

year's resolutions of past . Our habits are often so difficult to

change. On the other hand, the attitude of resigning ourselves to our

fate could reflect a level of acceptance and trust that could be

considered very wise.

 

Due to the differences of cultural conditioning, generally the

astrologers of India tend towards a fate orientation, while the

astrologers in the West tends toward a free will orientation. And

it's very easy to err on one side or the other

 

However, there may be exceptions like, In some cases, telling a

client honestly that they're entering a difficult period could help

them "surrender" and come to acceptance of their situation, which

could be a positive relief if they've made continued effort to

improve their situation to no avail,Like if u try hard for material

fullfillments in effected(bad) saturn period ,that much hard saturn

will come at u?

 

 

The path of action, represents "Dvaita" or dualism and is generally a

proponent of a free will orientation followed by modern seer and

proponent of dvaita Paramahansa Yogananda.

 

The path of surrender or non-action, represents "Advaita" or non-

dualism and is generally a proponent of fate orientation followed by

modern seer and proponent of advaita Ramana Maharshi

 

Both of the above conviction command respect in their respective

schools of thought

 

Hope the disussion continues?

Rahul

 

 

 

 

 

 

~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

 

 

Sponsor

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

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Terms of Service

<> .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Om,

Dear Mark ji,

You said:

When we close the eyes, and the mind or heart, how ever you want to

think

> about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of silence....

> a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects of

attention, slip

> away.

>

> In those moments, there comes the direct experience of pure

awareness.

>

> This 'state' of awareness, is the source of all thoughts, and when

we turn

> inward, and fathom that deep reality, we stir within us, the source

of all

> freedoms and boundries.

 

I want to share......In these moments of pure conciousness

is it not so .....that.....

Both predeterminism and free will meets somewhere.....

Pure conciousness asks for nothing.......but it is a source of all

free will and action...what it wants "creates"......

But at the same point/level it accepts everything....it doesn't ask

for any change.....

We can see free will and predeterminism ...well organised to guide

our lives....

I wish to draw your attention to the inspiration from God which only

pure conciousness receive.....how can we put that......

i think that is free from both the concepts....

 

Sincerely

AMIT

 

 

 

, Mark Kincaid

<m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> Dear Amit, Inder, Rahul, & All:

>

> Our reflections on 'free will & determinism', I believe, are

important

> because they really do go to the very heart of our incarnations.

>

> If we believe we can change things, that very powerfully helps

us, 'change'.

> If we don't believe, and instead believe 'more' in fate, then, that

affects

> us, appropriately,

> and we're found, 'waiting' more.

>

> In Jyotish there are these two

notions,.....'Doing'....and 'Waiting'....

>

> Interestingly also, these two qualities, or activities, seem to

correspond

> with Jupiter & Mars, for the 'doing',...and Saturn for

the 'waiting' or

> patience.

>

> Also, I've found an interesting correlation between which people

believe

> more in Freedom or Determinism, and their various strengths of

Jupiter or

> Saturn.

>

> I know a number of individuals who have very strong preferences for

> determinism, and coincidently they have very dominant Saturns in

their

> charts!

>

> Also, the opposite is true. Those who tend to have more success in

> manifesting 'changes' and improvements in their lives, believe,

more, in the

> possibility of 'freedom', and they, coincidently, tend to have

stronger

> Jupiters, Mar's and Suns.

>

> One friend of mine who has Sun & Saturn in her 12th house, and even

only 1

> degree apart, has had a very frustrating time, making changes and

believing

> in herself, and therefore, fate and "Oh, we have no power to

change",

> attitude comes easily to her.

>

> Looking at 'both' issues, Nature or God, has seemed to feel

that 'both'

> qualities, 'doing' and 'non-doing', both, are important in life.

>

> So it shouldn't be surprising to us if 'both' of these views are

> simultaneously 'right'!

>

> The problem is our intellects have a hard time wrapping around this

issue,

> because intellectually, it seems it's an 'either or' problem.

>

> Either we're free or we're not.

>

> The Truth may be closer to the simultaneously both reality, which

may not

> thoroughly get resolved accept in Consciousness.

>

> Because in Consciousness, there is a point to where both qualities,

are

> 'transcended', and the Oneness of life, dominates. In

this 'oneness' Truth

> dawns, and it isn't just on an intellectual level.

>

> Let's say for a moment that 'both' freedom and determinism exist.

>

> We can see both, maybe they both do exist, even if it's hard for us

to

> understand 'how' they both could.

>

> To me, the realities of Saturnian 'determinism' and lack of

freedom, is real

> and yet, we might be able to use this to motivate ourselves.

>

> We see countless examples of 'determinism' or 'causality'.

>

> We plant a seed, and a very predictable 'tree' pops up.

>

> Yes, we do have the freedom to graft that seed, and then a new seed

or

> hybrid, can be made, but the principle is still the same, the

future, still,

> pops up from the past.

>

> I also think it's very helpful to accept the fact that in many

ways, we

> don't have a lot of freedom in life.

>

> Those who are obviously 'addicted' to things, foods, repeating

certain

> mental and physical patterns, and those with strong compulsions,....

> certainly, would argue for 'bondage'.

>

> But, they also have a strong wish and hope to get out of

their 'binding'

> predicaments, hence the belief in growth of freedom.

>

> I loved the movie Matrix, where Morpheus told Neo, he was

completely in

> prison. "This world is not real. You are dreaming this world, and

reality

> is far from what you think it is."

>

> This movie is very annalogous to 'life'.

>

> We may enjoy some freedoms and some binding situations, but

ultimately, we

> are still 'slaves' to our very times, and local places, and even

states of

> consciousness.

>

> There are some who put it this way.

>

> There is only one true freedom, and that's in the nature of spirit,

soul or

> consciousness, itself.

>

> In other words, though we may argue over this or that, 'relative,

freedom or

> bondage';

> in truth....

> if our very existence, is a kind of bondage....then we may need to

try and

> think, completely beyond the 'box' so to speak....

>

> to come and find another kind of freedom....

>

>

> When we close the eyes, and the mind or heart, how ever you want to

think

> about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of silence....

> a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects of

attention, slip

> away.

>

> In those moments, there comes the direct experience of pure

awareness.

>

> This 'state' of awareness, is the source of all thoughts, and when

we turn

> inward, and fathom that deep reality, we stir within us, the source

of all

> freedoms and boundries.

>

> Also what happens as we enliven this 'state of pure consciousness',

within,

> we interestingly enough, find ourselves more competent, more clear,

and more

> successful at fulfilling our desires.

>

> This immediately, brings more of a sense of freedom and lack of

restriction

> and frustration then we did before.

>

> As this experience deepens we not only grow in this delightful,

fundamental

> experience of inner freedom, but, we also grow in this ability of

> manifesting change, in the outer.

>

>

>

> In future discussions I think it might be fun, to look exactly at

how the

> Ved, itself, sees freedom and determinism.

>

> The Ved is full of the Philosophy of Enlightenment and how it's the

only

> real freedom.

>

> But, so many of the different Vedic disciplines or sciences, have

as their

> focus the liberation of particular problems or focus in life, as

well.

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Mark Kincaid

>

"rahul_10uday" <rahul_10uday>

>

> Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:36:14 -0000

>

> Fate(Advaita) VS Free Will(Dvaita) -East VS West

Approach!

>

>

>

> The discussion abt fate & freewill never ends,anyone who is serious

> in learning astrology eventually has to grapple with questions

> regarding fate and free will. Is our fate linked adamantly to our

> moment of birth or is there some wiggle room for free will? If so,

> how much?

>

> Obviously, astrologers can predict events, which proves there is

some

> element of fate at work. But at other times predictions fail. This

> may either be

> 1.a reflection on the astrologer's skill level,

> 2.the accuracy of the predictive system itself

> 3.there really is the elusive power of free will at play

>

> the West, feel very uncomfortable with the idea of fate or destiny

> and relish with free will. However, in India it's much

> different,it's not uncommon to hear someone resign themselves to a

> situation by simply saying "this is just my fate."

>

> However, while on the surface it may appear that Western attitude

is

> the wiser of the two, After all, how "free" really is our free will

>

> when we're limited by our past conditioning? Usually, we're such

> creatures of habit that we can't even follow through with our new

> year's resolutions of past . Our habits are often so difficult to

> change. On the other hand, the attitude of resigning ourselves to

our

> fate could reflect a level of acceptance and trust that could be

> considered very wise.

>

> Due to the differences of cultural conditioning, generally the

> astrologers of India tend towards a fate orientation, while the

> astrologers in the West tends toward a free will orientation. And

> it's very easy to err on one side or the other

>

> However, there may be exceptions like, In some cases, telling a

> client honestly that they're entering a difficult period could help

> them "surrender" and come to acceptance of their situation, which

> could be a positive relief if they've made continued effort to

> improve their situation to no avail,Like if u try hard for material

> fullfillments in effected(bad) saturn period ,that much hard saturn

> will come at u?

>

>

> The path of action, represents "Dvaita" or dualism and is generally

a

> proponent of a free will orientation followed by modern seer and

> proponent of dvaita Paramahansa Yogananda.

>

> The path of surrender or non-action, represents "Advaita" or non-

> dualism and is generally a proponent of fate orientation followed by

> modern seer and proponent of advaita Ramana Maharshi

>

> Both of the above conviction command respect in their respective

> schools of thought

>

> Hope the disussion continues?

> Rahul

~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

>

> Links

>

> /

>

>

>

> <?

subject=Un>

>

> Terms of Service

> <> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Consciousness in this context is the electrical energy.

Free will is the wilful turning on of the switch on the wall

Destiny is the lighting of the bulb as a consequence.

 

If the switch or bulb is defective, illumination will not occur

 

Consciousness alone, or the switch alone or the bulb alone do not

complete the human experience. All three are needed. Electrical

energy was always there (shaswat), the switch and bulb had to be

created for reasons, to fulfil a deficiency, a need. The desire

(kama) to drive out darkness led to the freewill and the consequence.

 

Without desire, electricity would just exist, functionless,

effectless, like in the mind of a dispassionate yogi for whom the

world the universe does not exist. Nothing to create, nothing to look

forward to, no 'human experience'. Maybe that is how the godly state

is. But do we want that?

 

A pragmatic angle!

 

 

RR

 

, "amit_call" <amit_call>

wrote:

>

> Om,

> Dear Mark ji,

> You said:

> When we close the eyes, and the mind or heart, how ever you want

to

> think

> > about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of

silence....

> > a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects of

> attention, slip

> > away.

> >

> > In those moments, there comes the direct experience of pure

> awareness.

> >

> > This 'state' of awareness, is the source of all thoughts, and

when

> we turn

> > inward, and fathom that deep reality, we stir within us, the

source

> of all

> > freedoms and boundries.

>

> I want to share......In these moments of pure conciousness

> is it not so .....that.....

> Both predeterminism and free will meets somewhere.....

> Pure conciousness asks for nothing.......but it is a source of all

> free will and action...what it wants "creates"......

> But at the same point/level it accepts everything....it doesn't ask

> for any change.....

> We can see free will and predeterminism ...well organised to guide

> our lives....

> I wish to draw your attention to the inspiration from God which

only

> pure conciousness receive.....how can we put that......

> i think that is free from both the concepts....

>

> Sincerely

> AMIT

>

>

>

> , Mark Kincaid

> <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > Dear Amit, Inder, Rahul, & All:

> >

> > Our reflections on 'free will & determinism', I believe, are

> important

> > because they really do go to the very heart of our incarnations.

> >

> > If we believe we can change things, that very powerfully helps

> us, 'change'.

> > If we don't believe, and instead believe 'more' in fate, then,

that

> affects

> > us, appropriately,

> > and we're found, 'waiting' more.

> >

> > In Jyotish there are these two

> notions,.....'Doing'....and 'Waiting'....

> >

> > Interestingly also, these two qualities, or activities, seem to

> correspond

> > with Jupiter & Mars, for the 'doing',...and Saturn for

> the 'waiting' or

> > patience.

> >

> > Also, I've found an interesting correlation between which people

> believe

> > more in Freedom or Determinism, and their various strengths of

> Jupiter or

> > Saturn.

> >

> > I know a number of individuals who have very strong preferences

for

> > determinism, and coincidently they have very dominant Saturns in

> their

> > charts!

> >

> > Also, the opposite is true. Those who tend to have more success

in

> > manifesting 'changes' and improvements in their lives, believe,

> more, in the

> > possibility of 'freedom', and they, coincidently, tend to have

> stronger

> > Jupiters, Mar's and Suns.

> >

> > One friend of mine who has Sun & Saturn in her 12th house, and

even

> only 1

> > degree apart, has had a very frustrating time, making changes and

> believing

> > in herself, and therefore, fate and "Oh, we have no power to

> change",

> > attitude comes easily to her.

> >

> > Looking at 'both' issues, Nature or God, has seemed to feel

> that 'both'

> > qualities, 'doing' and 'non-doing', both, are important in life.

> >

> > So it shouldn't be surprising to us if 'both' of these views are

> > simultaneously 'right'!

> >

> > The problem is our intellects have a hard time wrapping around

this

> issue,

> > because intellectually, it seems it's an 'either or' problem.

> >

> > Either we're free or we're not.

> >

> > The Truth may be closer to the simultaneously both reality, which

> may not

> > thoroughly get resolved accept in Consciousness.

> >

> > Because in Consciousness, there is a point to where both

qualities,

> are

> > 'transcended', and the Oneness of life, dominates. In

> this 'oneness' Truth

> > dawns, and it isn't just on an intellectual level.

> >

> > Let's say for a moment that 'both' freedom and determinism exist.

> >

> > We can see both, maybe they both do exist, even if it's hard for

us

> to

> > understand 'how' they both could.

> >

> > To me, the realities of Saturnian 'determinism' and lack of

> freedom, is real

> > and yet, we might be able to use this to motivate ourselves.

> >

> > We see countless examples of 'determinism' or 'causality'.

> >

> > We plant a seed, and a very predictable 'tree' pops up.

> >

> > Yes, we do have the freedom to graft that seed, and then a new

seed

> or

> > hybrid, can be made, but the principle is still the same, the

> future, still,

> > pops up from the past.

> >

> > I also think it's very helpful to accept the fact that in many

> ways, we

> > don't have a lot of freedom in life.

> >

> > Those who are obviously 'addicted' to things, foods, repeating

> certain

> > mental and physical patterns, and those with strong

compulsions,....

> > certainly, would argue for 'bondage'.

> >

> > But, they also have a strong wish and hope to get out of

> their 'binding'

> > predicaments, hence the belief in growth of freedom.

> >

> > I loved the movie Matrix, where Morpheus told Neo, he was

> completely in

> > prison. "This world is not real. You are dreaming this world,

and

> reality

> > is far from what you think it is."

> >

> > This movie is very annalogous to 'life'.

> >

> > We may enjoy some freedoms and some binding situations, but

> ultimately, we

> > are still 'slaves' to our very times, and local places, and even

> states of

> > consciousness.

> >

> > There are some who put it this way.

> >

> > There is only one true freedom, and that's in the nature of

spirit,

> soul or

> > consciousness, itself.

> >

> > In other words, though we may argue over this or that, 'relative,

> freedom or

> > bondage';

> > in truth....

> > if our very existence, is a kind of bondage....then we may need

to

> try and

> > think, completely beyond the 'box' so to speak....

> >

> > to come and find another kind of freedom....

> >

> >

> > When we close the eyes, and the mind or heart, how ever you want

to

> think

> > about it.... enters into quieter and quieter, levels of

silence....

> > a time comes, where all manners of activity, and objects of

> attention, slip

> > away.

> >

> > In those moments, there comes the direct experience of pure

> awareness.

> >

> > This 'state' of awareness, is the source of all thoughts, and

when

> we turn

> > inward, and fathom that deep reality, we stir within us, the

source

> of all

> > freedoms and boundries.

> >

> > Also what happens as we enliven this 'state of pure

consciousness',

> within,

> > we interestingly enough, find ourselves more competent, more

clear,

> and more

> > successful at fulfilling our desires.

> >

> > This immediately, brings more of a sense of freedom and lack of

> restriction

> > and frustration then we did before.

> >

> > As this experience deepens we not only grow in this delightful,

> fundamental

> > experience of inner freedom, but, we also grow in this ability of

> > manifesting change, in the outer.

> >

> >

> >

> > In future discussions I think it might be fun, to look exactly at

> how the

> > Ved, itself, sees freedom and determinism.

> >

> > The Ved is full of the Philosophy of Enlightenment and how it's

the

> only

> > real freedom.

> >

> > But, so many of the different Vedic disciplines or sciences, have

> as their

> > focus the liberation of particular problems or focus in life, as

> well.

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > "rahul_10uday" <rahul_10uday>

> >

> > Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:36:14 -0000

> >

> > Fate(Advaita) VS Free Will(Dvaita) -East VS West

> Approach!

> >

> >

> >

> > The discussion abt fate & freewill never ends,anyone who is

serious

> > in learning astrology eventually has to grapple with questions

> > regarding fate and free will. Is our fate linked adamantly to our

> > moment of birth or is there some wiggle room for free will? If so,

> > how much?

> >

> > Obviously, astrologers can predict events, which proves there is

> some

> > element of fate at work. But at other times predictions fail. This

> > may either be

> > 1.a reflection on the astrologer's skill level,

> > 2.the accuracy of the predictive system itself

> > 3.there really is the elusive power of free will at play

> >

> > the West, feel very uncomfortable with the idea of fate or destiny

> > and relish with free will. However, in India it's much

> > different,it's not uncommon to hear someone resign themselves to a

> > situation by simply saying "this is just my fate."

> >

> > However, while on the surface it may appear that Western

attitude

> is

> > the wiser of the two, After all, how "free" really is our free

will

> >

> > when we're limited by our past conditioning? Usually, we're such

> > creatures of habit that we can't even follow through with our new

> > year's resolutions of past . Our habits are often so difficult to

> > change. On the other hand, the attitude of resigning ourselves to

> our

> > fate could reflect a level of acceptance and trust that could be

> > considered very wise.

> >

> > Due to the differences of cultural conditioning, generally the

> > astrologers of India tend towards a fate orientation, while the

> > astrologers in the West tends toward a free will orientation. And

> > it's very easy to err on one side or the other

> >

> > However, there may be exceptions like, In some cases, telling a

> > client honestly that they're entering a difficult period could

help

> > them "surrender" and come to acceptance of their situation, which

> > could be a positive relief if they've made continued effort to

> > improve their situation to no avail,Like if u try hard for

material

> > fullfillments in effected(bad) saturn period ,that much hard

saturn

> > will come at u?

> >

> >

> > The path of action, represents "Dvaita" or dualism and is

generally

> a

> > proponent of a free will orientation followed by modern seer and

> > proponent of dvaita Paramahansa Yogananda.

> >

> > The path of surrender or non-action, represents "Advaita" or non-

> > dualism and is generally a proponent of fate orientation followed

by

> > modern seer and proponent of advaita Ramana Maharshi

> >

> > Both of the above conviction command respect in their respective

> > schools of thought

> >

> > Hope the disussion continues?

> > Rahul

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

> >

> >

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