RE: 2 Mark - freedom, determinism....& Consciousness

[Guest guest]

PS Acceptance, as I see it is the concept of making the best of our 'lot'

without rancour at bad fortune or glee at good - not the struggle to do

better than the next man!

I have a problem with the phrase 'Life is a struggle - the fittest wins

survival' because if life is a struggle we have already lost. The fittest

(in the Darwinian sense) is not the strongest but the most adaptable. This

phrase irritates every time I read it.

I do have a problem too with the Western belief that 'progress' is

associated with wealth and power because sadly much ingenuity and creativity

in the last century went into creating better and weapons. In this sense we

have learned nothing in the 5 million (yes 5 million) years since man made

his first stand on two feet and used his hands to make crude tools! Also,

sadly up till now in US no-one has a chance of being President unless they

have lots of wealth and power. In fact it seems those that have the

qualities to get there are not the ones who have the talents to be

honourable leaders.

I realise this is no longer a relevant discussion for this list so if you

want to continue I suppose we should do it in private.

Love,

Gili

 

>Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid

>

><>

> 2-Mary, > Re: freedom, determinism....&

>Consciousness......,>Mark Kincaid...10/20

>Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:23:32 -0500

>

>Dear Mary:

>

>You said:

>

> Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to put us in the

>right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it right!!

>

>There's this very fascinating book, called 'Journey of Souls' written by a

>certain Michael Newton, PHD. He's a Hypnotherapist, living in Colorado,

>who

>chronicles, patients of his, who under 'regression' talk about the life,

>from 'where' we come from, before our births, and in-between our births...

>

>In this book he describes such beautiful detail about how we as souls,

>actually get very involved in picking the lives, that are coming up, before

>hand...

>

>As it is, deciding and chooseing to pick the challenges and lessons, that

>certain lives will necessarily bring...for our evolution.

>

>I found this book extremely enlightening, as it explains a quality of

>consciousness, that's intimately involved in Astrology as well.

>

>

>And this question and concern addresses a very important relationship

>between life purpose, and Jyotish.

>

>We so often 'feel' such an automatic, desire to grow, to learn to master.

>

>And that's so often at odds, with the all too often, aspect of life,

>regarding determinism or causality.

>

>Somehow the two, freedom and determinism both co-exist.

>

>We see them both, but knowing how they both could truely exist boggles the

>intellect.

>

>However, practical experience shows us, that by striving to grow, to

>improve, to even transform, we do 'change' our lives....

>

>in ways that improve, and help us avoid negatives, and even 'dangers upon

>the horizon'.

>

>I find this whole discussion extremely important especially in the light of

>the Indian or Vedic theme of loss and revival of Knowledge.

>

>There are some, Vedic scholars, by the way, who say that 'India' has gotten

>very 'lost' to this belief in fatalism. And as a result practical life has

>become very confused and unprogressive.

>

>India, for example, has forgotten that 'both' freedom and fate, co-exist,

>and believing in mostly fate, has meant much stagnation, grief, sufferings,

>because the view has persisted; because life is

>pre-determined,....therefore....accept ....

>

>In the West, we don't believe in this...

>

>We believe in growth, in change and transformation.

>

>We have it even, built into the Constitution of the United States....

>

>Though commonly we just say, 'any young person, male or female; can grow up

>to be President!'

>

>This attitude, really, has therefore allowed human genuity and creativity

>to

>blossom.

>

>As a result of this powerful 'belief', the United States has incredible

>wealth and sucess.

>

>Looking at one of the charts associated with the United States, July 4th,

>1776, the signing of the Declaration of Independence...

>

>the US, chart, has many planets in that all-important 8th house of

>transformation.

>

>'The US' believes in change, thrives in it, has many other problems, of

>youth, and Rahu's very poorly placed...but....

>

>'change' and growth, are not one of them....

>

>

>It's been quite fun watching these discussions the last few days...

>

>

>Sincerely,

>

>

>

>Mark Kincaid

>

>

>

>

>Founder Starlight Unlimited: m.kincaid,

>641 472-0000.

>Nature's Astrology: /

>, studying the Best of Western & Eastern Astrologys....

>

>

>

>

>

>

>"Gili Mary" <xapsarax

>

>Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:02:56 +0000

>

>RE: 2-Surya, > Re: freedom & causality..&."PLAYING WITH

>THEGRANDMASTER!"., >Mark Kincaid...10/18

>

>

>Dear All,

>

>I've lost track of who wrote this. Sorry. Please could you give the

>reference. Note the word CHOOSE in the quote!

>

>To quote a famous Vedic Scholoar: "life lived on the level of

>experimentation is a waste of time. Better to know the truth through Vedic

>Wisdom, and then choose the more right actions."

>

>Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to put us in the

>right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it right!! How can

>it

>be like a chess game the if conditions are different with each incarnation?

>We don't start a new life with the same pieces to play on the same board.

>

>

>Since you brought in physics ...

>Remember that everything in the universe comes from humble hydrogen atoms

>and the forces, energies (and music?) that holds them together. When

>hydrogen atoms are forced together to produce helium and then all the other

>higher elements heat and light energy are given off (physics)

>Further compounds formed by the sharing of outer orbit (aka energy level,

>shell) electrons of elements give more substances. (chemistry)

>The unique quality of carbon having an outer orbit of 4 electrons and

>seeking another 4 to fill its outer orbit (2nd orbit is full at 8

>electrons)

>gives the chance for long strings or rings of carbon atoms and for

>macromolecules ( biology) We carbon units need the heat and light of the

>fusion of hydrogen to exist

>How pure it is!

>

>... and where did the hydrogen atoms come from ... the primordial ocean of

>sub atomic particles ... the cosmic ocean ...

>The sages knew all this.

>Love Gili

>Sorry for drifting away from the task )

>

>_______________

>Express yourself with cool new emoticons

>http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

>

>

>

>~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

>

> Links

>

>/

>

>

>

><?subject=Un>

>

> Terms of Service

><> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

_______________

It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!

http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

The discussion as above is not irrelevant as it very much concerns

astrology and beliefs.

Jupiter as Planet for prosperity/wisdom/power represents a

jupitarian world. This Jupitarian world is always in focus with the

help of Mercury or Mercurian world.[news,

newspapers,books,communication, talking, etc]

 

This does not mean that other world [or conciousness] like Saturian,

Martian, etc are not existing or are irrelevant to the scheme of

universe.

Different worlds of conciousness exists. A Yogi [saturian] is so

engrossed in his world that he would consider a Jupitarian as fool

and irrelvant.

In Pakistan, whole nation may be lost in the game of cricket like a

passion ;for them nothing like baseball exists.

In the progerss of human civiliastion as 5 million years as you

point here, all these consiousness exsited combined as well as

separate.

Every one has survived. Darvinaian concept is correct in its essence

but not applicable as you say.

Inder

 

 

-- In , "Gili Mary" <xapsarax@h...>

wrote:

> PS Acceptance, as I see it is the concept of making the best of

our 'lot'

> without rancour at bad fortune or glee at good - not the struggle

to do

> better than the next man!

> I have a problem with the phrase 'Life is a struggle - the fittest

wins

> survival' because if life is a struggle we have already lost.

The fittest

> (in the Darwinian sense) is not the strongest but the most

adaptable. This

> phrase irritates every time I read it.

> I do have a problem too with the Western belief that 'progress' is

> associated with wealth and power because sadly much ingenuity and

creativity

> in the last century went into creating better and weapons. In

this sense we

> have learned nothing in the 5 million (yes 5 million) years since

man made

> his first stand on two feet and used his hands to make crude

tools! Also,

> sadly up till now in US no-one has a chance of being President

unless they

> have lots of wealth and power. In fact it seems those that have

the

> qualities to get there are not the ones who have the talents to be

> honourable leaders.

> I realise this is no longer a relevant discussion for this list so

if you

> want to continue I suppose we should do it in private.

> Love,

> Gili

>

> >Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...>

> >

> ><>

> > 2-Mary, > Re: freedom, determinism....&

> >Consciousness......,>Mark Kincaid...10/20

> >Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:23:32 -0500

> >

> >Dear Mary:

> >

> >You said:

> >

> > Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to put

us in the

> >right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it right!!

> >

> >There's this very fascinating book, called 'Journey of Souls'

written by a

> >certain Michael Newton, PHD. He's a Hypnotherapist, living in

Colorado,

> >who

> >chronicles, patients of his, who under 'regression' talk about

the life,

> >from 'where' we come from, before our births, and in-between our

births...

> >

> >In this book he describes such beautiful detail about how we as

souls,

> >actually get very involved in picking the lives, that are coming

up, before

> >hand...

> >

> >As it is, deciding and chooseing to pick the challenges and

lessons, that

> >certain lives will necessarily bring...for our evolution.

> >

> >I found this book extremely enlightening, as it explains a

quality of

> >consciousness, that's intimately involved in Astrology as well.

> >

> >

> >And this question and concern addresses a very important

relationship

> >between life purpose, and Jyotish.

> >

> >We so often 'feel' such an automatic, desire to grow, to learn to

master.

> >

> >And that's so often at odds, with the all too often, aspect of

life,

> >regarding determinism or causality.

> >

> >Somehow the two, freedom and determinism both co-exist.

> >

> >We see them both, but knowing how they both could truely exist

boggles the

> >intellect.

> >

> >However, practical experience shows us, that by striving to grow,

to

> >improve, to even transform, we do 'change' our lives....

> >

> >in ways that improve, and help us avoid negatives, and

even 'dangers upon

> >the horizon'.

> >

> >I find this whole discussion extremely important especially in

the light of

> >the Indian or Vedic theme of loss and revival of Knowledge.

> >

> >There are some, Vedic scholars, by the way, who say that 'India'

has gotten

> >very 'lost' to this belief in fatalism. And as a result

practical life has

> >become very confused and unprogressive.

> >

> >India, for example, has forgotten that 'both' freedom and fate,

co-exist,

> >and believing in mostly fate, has meant much stagnation, grief,

sufferings,

> >because the view has persisted; because life is

> >pre-determined,....therefore....accept ....

> >

> >In the West, we don't believe in this...

> >

> >We believe in growth, in change and transformation.

> >

> >We have it even, built into the Constitution of the United

States....

> >

> >Though commonly we just say, 'any young person, male or female;

can grow up

> >to be President!'

> >

> >This attitude, really, has therefore allowed human genuity and

creativity

> >to

> >blossom.

> >

> >As a result of this powerful 'belief', the United States has

incredible

> >wealth and sucess.

> >

> >Looking at one of the charts associated with the United States,

July 4th,

> >1776, the signing of the Declaration of Independence...

> >

> >the US, chart, has many planets in that all-important 8th house of

> >transformation.

> >

> >'The US' believes in change, thrives in it, has many other

problems, of

> >youth, and Rahu's very poorly placed...but....

> >

> >'change' and growth, are not one of them....

> >

> >

> >It's been quite fun watching these discussions the last few

days...

> >

> >

> >Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> >Mark Kincaid

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Founder Starlight Unlimited: m.kincaid@m...,

> >641 472-0000.

> >Nature's Astrology:

/

> >, studying the Best of Western & Eastern Astrologys....

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >"Gili Mary" <xapsarax@h...>

> >

> >Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:02:56 +0000

> >

> >RE: 2-Surya, > Re: freedom & causality..&."PLAYING

WITH

> >THEGRANDMASTER!"., >Mark Kincaid...10/18

> >

> >

> >Dear All,

> >

> >I've lost track of who wrote this. Sorry. Please could you give

the

> >reference. Note the word CHOOSE in the quote!

> >

> >To quote a famous Vedic Scholoar: "life lived on the level of

> >experimentation is a waste of time. Better to know the truth

through Vedic

> >Wisdom, and then choose the more right actions."

> >

> >Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to put

us in the

> >right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it right!!

How can

> >it

> >be like a chess game the if conditions are different with each

incarnation?

> >We don't start a new life with the same pieces to play on the

same board.

> >

> >

> >Since you brought in physics ...

> >Remember that everything in the universe comes from humble

hydrogen atoms

> >and the forces, energies (and music?) that holds them together.

When

> >hydrogen atoms are forced together to produce helium and then all

the other

> >higher elements heat and light energy are given off (physics)

> >Further compounds formed by the sharing of outer orbit (aka

energy level,

> >shell) electrons of elements give more substances. (chemistry)

> >The unique quality of carbon having an outer orbit of 4 electrons

and

> >seeking another 4 to fill its outer orbit (2nd orbit is full at 8

> >electrons)

> >gives the chance for long strings or rings of carbon atoms and for

> >macromolecules ( biology) We carbon units need the heat and

light of the

> >fusion of hydrogen to exist

> >How pure it is!

> >

> >... and where did the hydrogen atoms come from ... the primordial

ocean of

> >sub atomic particles ... the cosmic ocean ...

> >The sages knew all this.

> >Love Gili

> >Sorry for drifting away from the task )

> >

> >_______________

> >Express yourself with cool new emoticons

> >http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

> >

> >

> >

> >~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

> >

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >/

> >

> >

> >

> ><?

subject=Un>

> >

> > Terms of

Service

> ><> .

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> _______________

> It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!

> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

[Guest guest]

Inderji,

 

Very well-written. It was a joy to read your thoughts.

 

RR

 

, "Inder"

<indervohra2001> wrote:

>

> Dear friends,

> The discussion as above is not irrelevant as it very much concerns

> astrology and beliefs.

> Jupiter as Planet for prosperity/wisdom/power represents a

> jupitarian world. This Jupitarian world is always in focus with the

> help of Mercury or Mercurian world.[news,

> newspapers,books,communication, talking, etc]

>

> This does not mean that other world [or conciousness] like

Saturian,

> Martian, etc are not existing or are irrelevant to the scheme of

> universe.

> Different worlds of conciousness exists. A Yogi [saturian] is so

> engrossed in his world that he would consider a Jupitarian as fool

> and irrelvant.

> In Pakistan, whole nation may be lost in the game of cricket like a

> passion ;for them nothing like baseball exists.

> In the progerss of human civiliastion as 5 million years as you

> point here, all these consiousness exsited combined as well as

> separate.

> Every one has survived. Darvinaian concept is correct in its

essence

> but not applicable as you say.

> Inder

>

>

> -- In , "Gili Mary" <xapsarax@h...>

> wrote:

> > PS Acceptance, as I see it is the concept of making the best of

> our 'lot'

> > without rancour at bad fortune or glee at good - not the struggle

> to do

> > better than the next man!

> > I have a problem with the phrase 'Life is a struggle - the

fittest

> wins

> > survival' because if life is a struggle we have already lost.

> The fittest

> > (in the Darwinian sense) is not the strongest but the most

> adaptable. This

> > phrase irritates every time I read it.

> > I do have a problem too with the Western belief that 'progress'

is

> > associated with wealth and power because sadly much ingenuity and

> creativity

> > in the last century went into creating better and weapons. In

> this sense we

> > have learned nothing in the 5 million (yes 5 million) years since

> man made

> > his first stand on two feet and used his hands to make crude

> tools! Also,

> > sadly up till now in US no-one has a chance of being President

> unless they

> > have lots of wealth and power. In fact it seems those that have

> the

> > qualities to get there are not the ones who have the talents to

be

> > honourable leaders.

> > I realise this is no longer a relevant discussion for this list

so

> if you

> > want to continue I suppose we should do it in private.

> > Love,

> > Gili

> >

> > >Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...>

> > >

> > ><>

> > > 2-Mary, > Re: freedom, determinism....&

> > >Consciousness......,>Mark Kincaid...10/20

> > >Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:23:32 -0500

> > >

> > >Dear Mary:

> > >

> > >You said:

> > >

> > > Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to

put

> us in the

> > >right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it right!!

> > >

> > >There's this very fascinating book, called 'Journey of Souls'

> written by a

> > >certain Michael Newton, PHD. He's a Hypnotherapist, living in

> Colorado,

> > >who

> > >chronicles, patients of his, who under 'regression' talk about

> the life,

> > >from 'where' we come from, before our births, and in-between our

> births...

> > >

> > >In this book he describes such beautiful detail about how we as

> souls,

> > >actually get very involved in picking the lives, that are coming

> up, before

> > >hand...

> > >

> > >As it is, deciding and chooseing to pick the challenges and

> lessons, that

> > >certain lives will necessarily bring...for our evolution.

> > >

> > >I found this book extremely enlightening, as it explains a

> quality of

> > >consciousness, that's intimately involved in Astrology as well.

> > >

> > >

> > >And this question and concern addresses a very important

> relationship

> > >between life purpose, and Jyotish.

> > >

> > >We so often 'feel' such an automatic, desire to grow, to learn

to

> master.

> > >

> > >And that's so often at odds, with the all too often, aspect of

> life,

> > >regarding determinism or causality.

> > >

> > >Somehow the two, freedom and determinism both co-exist.

> > >

> > >We see them both, but knowing how they both could truely exist

> boggles the

> > >intellect.

> > >

> > >However, practical experience shows us, that by striving to

grow,

> to

> > >improve, to even transform, we do 'change' our lives....

> > >

> > >in ways that improve, and help us avoid negatives, and

> even 'dangers upon

> > >the horizon'.

> > >

> > >I find this whole discussion extremely important especially in

> the light of

> > >the Indian or Vedic theme of loss and revival of Knowledge.

> > >

> > >There are some, Vedic scholars, by the way, who say that 'India'

> has gotten

> > >very 'lost' to this belief in fatalism. And as a result

> practical life has

> > >become very confused and unprogressive.

> > >

> > >India, for example, has forgotten that 'both' freedom and fate,

> co-exist,

> > >and believing in mostly fate, has meant much stagnation, grief,

> sufferings,

> > >because the view has persisted; because life is

> > >pre-determined,....therefore....accept ....

> > >

> > >In the West, we don't believe in this...

> > >

> > >We believe in growth, in change and transformation.

> > >

> > >We have it even, built into the Constitution of the United

> States....

> > >

> > >Though commonly we just say, 'any young person, male or female;

> can grow up

> > >to be President!'

> > >

> > >This attitude, really, has therefore allowed human genuity and

> creativity

> > >to

> > >blossom.

> > >

> > >As a result of this powerful 'belief', the United States has

> incredible

> > >wealth and sucess.

> > >

> > >Looking at one of the charts associated with the United States,

> July 4th,

> > >1776, the signing of the Declaration of Independence...

> > >

> > >the US, chart, has many planets in that all-important 8th house

of

> > >transformation.

> > >

> > >'The US' believes in change, thrives in it, has many other

> problems, of

> > >youth, and Rahu's very poorly placed...but....

> > >

> > >'change' and growth, are not one of them....

> > >

> > >

> > >It's been quite fun watching these discussions the last few

> days...

> > >

> > >

> > >Sincerely,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >Mark Kincaid

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >Founder Starlight Unlimited: m.kincaid@m...,

> > >641 472-0000.

> > >Nature's Astrology:

> /

> > >, studying the Best of Western & Eastern

Astrologys....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >"Gili Mary" <xapsarax@h...>

> > >

> > >Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:02:56 +0000

> > >

> > >RE: 2-Surya, > Re: freedom & causality..&."PLAYING

> WITH

> > >THEGRANDMASTER!"., >Mark Kincaid...10/18

> > >

> > >

> > >Dear All,

> > >

> > >I've lost track of who wrote this. Sorry. Please could you

give

> the

> > >reference. Note the word CHOOSE in the quote!

> > >

> > >To quote a famous Vedic Scholoar: "life lived on the level of

> > >experimentation is a waste of time. Better to know the truth

> through Vedic

> > >Wisdom, and then choose the more right actions."

> > >

> > >Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to put

> us in the

> > >right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it

right!!

> How can

> > >it

> > >be like a chess game the if conditions are different with each

> incarnation?

> > >We don't start a new life with the same pieces to play on the

> same board.

> > >

> > >

> > >Since you brought in physics ...

> > >Remember that everything in the universe comes from humble

> hydrogen atoms

> > >and the forces, energies (and music?) that holds them together.

> When

> > >hydrogen atoms are forced together to produce helium and then

all

> the other

> > >higher elements heat and light energy are given off (physics)

> > >Further compounds formed by the sharing of outer orbit (aka

> energy level,

> > >shell) electrons of elements give more substances. (chemistry)

> > >The unique quality of carbon having an outer orbit of 4

electrons

> and

> > >seeking another 4 to fill its outer orbit (2nd orbit is full at

8

> > >electrons)

> > >gives the chance for long strings or rings of carbon atoms and

for

> > >macromolecules ( biology) We carbon units need the heat and

> light of the

> > >fusion of hydrogen to exist

> > >How pure it is!

> > >

> > >... and where did the hydrogen atoms come from ... the

primordial

> ocean of

> > >sub atomic particles ... the cosmic ocean ...

> > >The sages knew all this.

> > >Love Gili

> > >Sorry for drifting away from the task )

> > >

> > >_______________

> > >Express yourself with cool new emoticons

> > >http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

> > >

> > >

> > > Sponsor

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Links

> > >

> > >/

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ><?

> subject=Un>

> > >

> > > Terms of

> Service

> > ><> .

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > _______________

> > It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!

> > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

[Guest guest]

Thankyou Rohiniji

 

-- In , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...>

wrote:

>

> Inderji,

>

> Very well-written. It was a joy to read your thoughts.

>

> RR

>

> , "Inder"

> <indervohra2001> wrote:

> >

> > Dear friends,

> > The discussion as above is not irrelevant as it very much

concerns

> > astrology and beliefs.

> > Jupiter as Planet for prosperity/wisdom/power represents a

> > jupitarian world. This Jupitarian world is always in focus with

the

> > help of Mercury or Mercurian world.[news,

> > newspapers,books,communication, talking, etc]

> >

> > This does not mean that other world [or conciousness] like

> Saturian,

> > Martian, etc are not existing or are irrelevant to the scheme of

> > universe.

> > Different worlds of conciousness exists. A Yogi [saturian] is so

> > engrossed in his world that he would consider a Jupitarian as

fool

> > and irrelvant.

> > In Pakistan, whole nation may be lost in the game of cricket

like a

> > passion ;for them nothing like baseball exists.

> > In the progerss of human civiliastion as 5 million years as you

> > point here, all these consiousness exsited combined as well as

> > separate.

> > Every one has survived. Darvinaian concept is correct in its

> essence

> > but not applicable as you say.

> > Inder

> >

> >

> > -- In , "Gili Mary"

<xapsarax@h...>

> > wrote:

> > > PS Acceptance, as I see it is the concept of making the best

of

> > our 'lot'

> > > without rancour at bad fortune or glee at good - not the

struggle

> > to do

> > > better than the next man!

> > > I have a problem with the phrase 'Life is a struggle - the

> fittest

> > wins

> > > survival' because if life is a struggle we have already

lost.

> > The fittest

> > > (in the Darwinian sense) is not the strongest but the most

> > adaptable. This

> > > phrase irritates every time I read it.

> > > I do have a problem too with the Western belief

that 'progress'

> is

> > > associated with wealth and power because sadly much ingenuity

and

> > creativity

> > > in the last century went into creating better and weapons. In

> > this sense we

> > > have learned nothing in the 5 million (yes 5 million) years

since

> > man made

> > > his first stand on two feet and used his hands to make crude

> > tools! Also,

> > > sadly up till now in US no-one has a chance of being President

> > unless they

> > > have lots of wealth and power. In fact it seems those that

have

> > the

> > > qualities to get there are not the ones who have the talents

to

> be

> > > honourable leaders.

> > > I realise this is no longer a relevant discussion for this

list

> so

> > if you

> > > want to continue I suppose we should do it in private.

> > > Love,

> > > Gili

> > >

> > > >Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...>

> > > >

> > > ><>

> > > > 2-Mary, > Re: freedom, determinism....&

> > > >Consciousness......,>Mark Kincaid...10/20

> > > >Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:23:32 -0500

> > > >

> > > >Dear Mary:

> > > >

> > > >You said:

> > > >

> > > > Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to

> put

> > us in the

> > > >right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it

right!!

> > > >

> > > >There's this very fascinating book, called 'Journey of Souls'

> > written by a

> > > >certain Michael Newton, PHD. He's a Hypnotherapist, living

in

> > Colorado,

> > > >who

> > > >chronicles, patients of his, who under 'regression' talk

about

> > the life,

> > > >from 'where' we come from, before our births, and in-between

our

> > births...

> > > >

> > > >In this book he describes such beautiful detail about how we

as

> > souls,

> > > >actually get very involved in picking the lives, that are

coming

> > up, before

> > > >hand...

> > > >

> > > >As it is, deciding and chooseing to pick the challenges and

> > lessons, that

> > > >certain lives will necessarily bring...for our evolution.

> > > >

> > > >I found this book extremely enlightening, as it explains a

> > quality of

> > > >consciousness, that's intimately involved in Astrology as

well.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >And this question and concern addresses a very important

> > relationship

> > > >between life purpose, and Jyotish.

> > > >

> > > >We so often 'feel' such an automatic, desire to grow, to

learn

> to

> > master.

> > > >

> > > >And that's so often at odds, with the all too often, aspect

of

> > life,

> > > >regarding determinism or causality.

> > > >

> > > >Somehow the two, freedom and determinism both co-exist.

> > > >

> > > >We see them both, but knowing how they both could truely

exist

> > boggles the

> > > >intellect.

> > > >

> > > >However, practical experience shows us, that by striving to

> grow,

> > to

> > > >improve, to even transform, we do 'change' our lives....

> > > >

> > > >in ways that improve, and help us avoid negatives, and

> > even 'dangers upon

> > > >the horizon'.

> > > >

> > > >I find this whole discussion extremely important especially

in

> > the light of

> > > >the Indian or Vedic theme of loss and revival of Knowledge.

> > > >

> > > >There are some, Vedic scholars, by the way, who say

that 'India'

> > has gotten

> > > >very 'lost' to this belief in fatalism. And as a result

> > practical life has

> > > >become very confused and unprogressive.

> > > >

> > > >India, for example, has forgotten that 'both' freedom and

fate,

> > co-exist,

> > > >and believing in mostly fate, has meant much stagnation,

grief,

> > sufferings,

> > > >because the view has persisted; because life is

> > > >pre-determined,....therefore....accept ....

> > > >

> > > >In the West, we don't believe in this...

> > > >

> > > >We believe in growth, in change and transformation.

> > > >

> > > >We have it even, built into the Constitution of the United

> > States....

> > > >

> > > >Though commonly we just say, 'any young person, male or

female;

> > can grow up

> > > >to be President!'

> > > >

> > > >This attitude, really, has therefore allowed human genuity

and

> > creativity

> > > >to

> > > >blossom.

> > > >

> > > >As a result of this powerful 'belief', the United States has

> > incredible

> > > >wealth and sucess.

> > > >

> > > >Looking at one of the charts associated with the United

States,

> > July 4th,

> > > >1776, the signing of the Declaration of Independence...

> > > >

> > > >the US, chart, has many planets in that all-important 8th

house

> of

> > > >transformation.

> > > >

> > > >'The US' believes in change, thrives in it, has many other

> > problems, of

> > > >youth, and Rahu's very poorly placed...but....

> > > >

> > > >'change' and growth, are not one of them....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >It's been quite fun watching these discussions the last few

> > days...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Mark Kincaid

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Founder Starlight Unlimited: m.kincaid@m...,

> > > >641 472-0000.

> > > >Nature's Astrology:

> > /

> > > >, studying the Best of Western & Eastern

> Astrologys....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >"Gili Mary" <xapsarax@h...>

> > > >

> > > >Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:02:56 +0000

> > > >

> > > >RE: 2-Surya, > Re: freedom &

causality..&."PLAYING

> > WITH

> > > >THEGRANDMASTER!"., >Mark Kincaid...10/18

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Dear All,

> > > >

> > > >I've lost track of who wrote this. Sorry. Please could you

> give

> > the

> > > >reference. Note the word CHOOSE in the quote!

> > > >

> > > >To quote a famous Vedic Scholoar: "life lived on the level of

> > > >experimentation is a waste of time. Better to know the truth

> > through Vedic

> > > >Wisdom, and then choose the more right actions."

> > > >

> > > >Perhaps we even choose the cards that are dealt in order to

put

> > us in the

> > > >right environment to learn the lessons we need to get it

> right!!

> > How can

> > > >it

> > > >be like a chess game the if conditions are different with

each

> > incarnation?

> > > >We don't start a new life with the same pieces to play on the

> > same board.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Since you brought in physics ...

> > > >Remember that everything in the universe comes from humble

> > hydrogen atoms

> > > >and the forces, energies (and music?) that holds them

together.

> > When

> > > >hydrogen atoms are forced together to produce helium and then

> all

> > the other

> > > >higher elements heat and light energy are given off (physics)

> > > >Further compounds formed by the sharing of outer orbit (aka

> > energy level,

> > > >shell) electrons of elements give more substances. (chemistry)

> > > >The unique quality of carbon having an outer orbit of 4

> electrons

> > and

> > > >seeking another 4 to fill its outer orbit (2nd orbit is full

at

> 8

> > > >electrons)

> > > >gives the chance for long strings or rings of carbon atoms

and

> for

> > > >macromolecules ( biology) We carbon units need the heat and

> > light of the

> > > >fusion of hydrogen to exist

> > > >How pure it is!

> > > >

> > > >... and where did the hydrogen atoms come from ... the

> primordial

> > ocean of

> > > >sub atomic particles ... the cosmic ocean ...

> > > >The sages knew all this.

> > > >Love Gili

> > > >Sorry for drifting away from the task )

> > > >

> > >

>_______________

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