2-V.Sreelatha, > Co-esistence of freedom & causality...., >Mark Kincaid...10/13

[Guest guest]

Latha ji,

 

While it is hard for me to miss the pragmatism (in a long time frame,

that is) in your message and a strong resonance to some elements of

your message, lately, particularly after having interacted with

erudite members on this board, I am beginning to wonder about things

like "whither astrology?"

 

If most participants, even the marginally dramatic ones, really do

not believe in reincarnation as is obvious from their questions about

karma etc, then the belief in astrology does have a problem in making

its worth known!

 

And, given such a myopic outlook, akin to a person having suffered a

recent concussion, namely, not recalling all that one experienced

before the concussion, or recalling it in bits and pieces and in a

confused manner (during the next few days of recovery post-concussion

hopefully mild!) how is one to even try to make a case for astrology

to such an individual?

 

Hence, astrology for most mortals in the modern reality must only be

meaningful because they somehow sense its importance (but cannot

explain or justify!) and yet must seek some magical and dazzling

demonstration and display of its magical abilities and impressive

predictive prowess -- which does happen from time to time.

 

No one -- not even the researchers, or the dazzling pundits of nadi

fame or erudite great ones who have almost consistently been correct

about mundane predictions like Late B.V. Raman and a few others after

him in recent times -- have really provide the rational key to what

jyotish is supposed to represent for the modern human being.

 

When we 2000+ strong -- continue to struggle with basic factors and

rules in jyotish, as anyone following last mere six months worth of

discussions on this one list, dispassionately and rationally would

acknowledge -- cannot figure this out, it tells me something, indeed

it confirms one thing -- Abhi Dilli Dur Hai! I apologize to my dear

non-india based friends and colleagues who may be wondering what I am

talking about, but actually may be closer to the cause and the real

answer because I am certain, this in not their *first* crack at it.

They do sound like veterans, do sound like true seekers, truly

persistent seekers who might actually get to *jewels* sooner than the

natives will, as history indicates!

 

Sorry for being such a pest, but someone has to speak up!

 

RR

 

 

, "V. Sreelatha"

<venkatarama_sastry> wrote:

>

> :-) Precisely - IF your frame of reference is a single lifetime,

all

> we really see is that we have been dealt certain cards. But if your

> frame of reference is multiple lifetimes, we see that we are really

> the ones that are dealing the cards too. Now, I know this is an

> article of faith here, and it is not at all my intention to impose

> the reincarnation beliefs of Hinduism on you. I do agree though,

> that what all of us know for sure is that we have at least this one

> lifetime, and hence, your summarization is a practical way to

> accumulate good karma going forward.

>

> -vs

>

> , "Gili Mary"

<xapsarax@h...>

> wrote:

> > Dear All,

> > Simply put ... isn't it just that we are dealt the cards but we

> have a

> > choice of how we play them?

> > Love,Gili

> >

> > >Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...>

> > >

> > ><>

> > > 2-V.Sreelatha, > Re: Co-esistence of freedom &

> > >causality...., >Mark Kincaid...10/13

> > >Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:23:43 -0500

> > >

> > >Dear V. Sreelatha, & All:

> > >

> > >I think it's healthy to understand we have the power and

> potential of

> > >'freedom' and even 'free will', but,....also that....

> > >

> > >that ability to exercise that free will, can and does get

> diminished, the

> > >more malefic influences are going on in our charts...

> > >

> > >Therefore it's possible to in fact, increase our ability to have

> more power

> > >of freedom of will.

> > >

> > >This means we can grow.

> > >

> > >The issue of free will and determinism.....looks like an eternal

> arguement,

> > >and there are good answers on both side...

> > >

> > >However, I believe that in some strange and mysterious way, the

> true answer

> > >is that 'both' do exist!

> > >

> > >I heard a famour guru, one time, being asked this very question.

> > >

> > >"Which is it free will or fate?"

> > >

> > >And the answer was......"both"!

> > >

> > >The problem is the intellect considers this to be an either/or

> question...

> > >

> > >But life has several, opposite and seemingly opposed

> qualites,....like

> > >'Absolute' & 'Relative',...

> > >and even,...'spirit & matter'...

> > >

> > >This debate, 'spirit & matter', was a very popular Philosophical

> discussion

> > >for centuries... but today, perhaps because more and more people

> > >'experience'....pure spirit....

> > >

> > >this whole discussion has seemed to just go away....

> > >

> > >Perhaps this free will & fate question and quagmire, will go the

> same

> > >way....

> > >

> > >Perhaps in the same way that our nervous systems are able to

> > >simultaneously,

> > >hold on to the ability ....to be 'active'....and to be 'silent'

> at the same

> > >time....

> > >

> > >maybe in such a way, we'll come to understand that freedom,...and

> > >causality...both co-exist!

> > >

> > >All I know for sure, is...that the more I develop my inner side,

> more

> > >awareness, more consciousness,...more power of Self...

> > >

> > >the more, true 'freedom' I feel!

> > >

> > >and the less 'bondage' to the outside, and to the old habits

that

> used to

> > >be

> > >there...

> > >

> > >Maybe that's the best statement yet, for confirming,....the

> ability to grow

> > >in freedom!

> > >

> > >So, let's think of Astrology as including the qualities

of 'fate'

> of past

> > >karmas, or consequences, but still, the ability to change, to

> grow,

> > >transform,....and even increase.....more '.....freedom....'.

> > >

> > >

> > >Jai Guru!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >Mark Kincaid

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >"V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry>

> > >

> > >Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:03:41 -0000

> > >

> > > Fwd: Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re:

> Free will,

> > >Astrology & power of meditation, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >Dear Mark and Partha,

> > >

> > >It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we

> are

> > >100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of

> our

> > >own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

> > >contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting

> > >point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not

saying

> > >this very well, let me try again.

> > >

> > >We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us

behave

> > >in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is

> not

> > >a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something,

> that

> > >a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through.

> > >There was something else that came before that action ... and

THAT

> > >something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

> > >exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the

outcome

> > >is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our

free

> > >will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am

> oversimplifying

> > >to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you

always

> > >have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a

> ball

> > >up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want,

> > >but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity,

> > >because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

> > >action done with 100% free will.

> > >

> > >Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows

> the

> > >what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are

meant

> to

> > >happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the

> actions

> > >that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly,

> > >it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as

Saturn

> > >is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy.

Say

> a

> > >murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that

> > >caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that

> > >prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These

are

> > >the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play.

> The

> > >true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

> > >exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the

> > >events in motion.

> > >

> > >All these, strictly, MHO as always.

> > >Venkatarama Sreelatha

> > >

> > >, partha sarathy

> > ><partvinu5> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Mark

> > > >

> > > > Well said.

> > > >

> > > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will

> case.

> > >The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE

> > >will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some

> discussions

> > >where people talk of a percentaged free will.

> > > >

> > > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the

> > >consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes

> in.

> > >But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free

> > >will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current

> > >decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The

> > >souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish

> definitely

> > >gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions.

The

> > >various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but

> > >projections of the same.

> > > >

> > > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad

> > >sani dasa etc.

> > > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa

> since

> > >last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but

> > >then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD"

> which

> > >i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> > > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look

at

> > >our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

> > >meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every

soul

> is

> > >a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but

> the

> > >various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember

> > >more of who we are really.

> > > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn

what

> > >freedom is.

> > > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's

place,

> > >and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

> > >decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I

> worked

> > >in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> > > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

> > >conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we

> are

> > >basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> > > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> > > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> > > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

> > >are "Invincibles"

> > > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

> > >machines".

> > > >

> > > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it

> is

> > >not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day,

> when i

> > >see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have

tasted

> > >the bitter.

> > > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> > > > best wishes

> > > > partha

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > > Dear Partha:

> > > >

> > > > This is another reason why I'm excited about

this 'meditation'

> &

> > >Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

> > >measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

> > > >

> > > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only

> remaining

> > >in the theoretical, cerebral part.

> > > >

> > > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of

> life.

> > > >

> > > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology,

free

> > >will is a part of it.

> > > >

> > > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a

part

> of

> > >life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's

will,

> to

> > >evolve is too.!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> > > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> > > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter

&

> > >Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Mark

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and

yoga,

> the

> > >understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

> > >inaccessible.

> > > >

> > > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last

> > >years spiritual transformation.

> > > > I started meditating last year, went for past life

regression,

> saw

> > >some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So

> > >many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool

to

> > >assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can

progress

> in

> > >life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

> > >having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of

> even

> > >astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

> > >determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> > > > best wishes

> > > > partha

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Partha:

> > > >

> > > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at

> nature

> > >or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

> > >Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in

> life...

> > > >

> > > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a

> wonderful

> > >compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

> > > >

> > > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not

> > >understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

> > >charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

> > > >

> > > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled

out...

> > > >

> > > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to

> meditation....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more

> > >wonderful discussions, together...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

> > >

> > >

> > > Sponsor

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Links

> > >

> > >/

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ><?

> subject=Un>

> > >

> > > Terms of

> Service

> > ><> .

> > >

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> > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

I have not followed the entire thread so far .. so

please ignore this mail if I am talking late ...

 

Regards to the mail below ... the process of dealing

the cards is entirely random .. in which case we will

not have the game we desire to play ...

 

If this was to be a limited example of what you

intended then please ignore my above comments ..

 

I like to think of life as a game of chess that we

play with a grandmaster ... when we start we dont know

the rules .. but we make the moves ... with every move

we learn the rules better .. in the process we lose

many games ... with every loss there is an associated

process of forming strategies to succeed ... there are

always elements of surprises ... we thik we have

learnt all teh rules .. but eventually get stumped

when a pawn becomes a queen on reaching the enemy post

.... after many series of such learning/losing/re

evaluations we finally win !! ... then the we become

grandmasters ..

 

I have had this view that the formation of the

universe had a basic premise (albeit hidden one)

however the process of evolution itself is random

guided by this premise... the moment consciousness

comes in contact of this randomness, it has the free

will to choose it's process of learning through losses

and march onwards towards winning ...

 

Tantra/vedas every religion say that god and man are

one ... but we objectively never understand this to be

the truth ... there is a fear of all this being humbug

..,.. but if it is true that there was a orignial

premise for the formation of the universe then we need

not fear ... because through all losses it's this

premise that will guide us towards winning ...

 

Every religion says, Love .. astrology says that the

universe was not created to be in perfect harmony ..

how much simpler can the message get "Across the

parities .. just love" ...

 

After reading some of the postings .. I feel really

dwarfed ... this is my "one annas" worth !!

 

 

--- Gili Mary <xapsarax wrote:

 

> Dear All,

> Simply put ... isn't it just that we are dealt the

> cards but we have a

> choice of how we play them?

> Love,Gili

>

> >Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid

> >

> ><>

> > 2-V.Sreelatha, > Re: Co-esistence of

> freedom &

> >causality...., >Mark Kincaid...10/13

> >Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:23:43 -0500

> >

> >Dear V. Sreelatha, & All:

> >

> >I think it's healthy to understand we have the

> power and potential of

> >'freedom' and even 'free will', but,....also

> that....

> >

> >that ability to exercise that free will, can and

> does get diminished, the

> >more malefic influences are going on in our

> charts...

> >

> >Therefore it's possible to in fact, increase our

> ability to have more power

> >of freedom of will.

> >

> >This means we can grow.

> >

> >The issue of free will and determinism.....looks

> like an eternal arguement,

> >and there are good answers on both side...

> >

> >However, I believe that in some strange and

> mysterious way, the true answer

> >is that 'both' do exist!

> >

> >I heard a famour guru, one time, being asked this

> very question.

> >

> >"Which is it free will or fate?"

> >

> >And the answer was......"both"!

> >

> >The problem is the intellect considers this to be

> an either/or question...

> >

> >But life has several, opposite and seemingly

> opposed qualites,....like

> >'Absolute' & 'Relative',...

> >and even,...'spirit & matter'...

> >

> >This debate, 'spirit & matter', was a very popular

> Philosophical discussion

> >for centuries... but today, perhaps because more

> and more people

> >'experience'....pure spirit....

> >

> >this whole discussion has seemed to just go

> away....

> >

> >Perhaps this free will & fate question and

> quagmire, will go the same

> >way....

> >

> >Perhaps in the same way that our nervous systems

> are able to

> >simultaneously,

> >hold on to the ability ....to be 'active'....and to

> be 'silent' at the same

> >time....

> >

> >maybe in such a way, we'll come to understand that

> freedom,...and

> >causality...both co-exist!

> >

> >All I know for sure, is...that the more I develop

> my inner side, more

> >awareness, more consciousness,...more power of

> Self...

> >

> >the more, true 'freedom' I feel!

> >

> >and the less 'bondage' to the outside, and to the

> old habits that used to

> >be

> >there...

> >

> >Maybe that's the best statement yet, for

> confirming,....the ability to grow

> >in freedom!

> >

> >So, let's think of Astrology as including the

> qualities of 'fate' of past

> >karmas, or consequences, but still, the ability to

> change, to grow,

> >transform,....and even increase.....more

> '.....freedom....'.

> >

> >

> >Jai Guru!

> >

> >

> >

> >Mark Kincaid

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >"V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry

> >

> >Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:03:41 -0000

> >

> > Fwd: Re: [Transcend-Meditation]

> 2-Partha:, > Re: Free will,

> >Astrology & power of meditation, > Mark

> Kincaid...10/11

> >

> >

> >

> >Dear Mark and Partha,

> >

> >It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating

> idea, that we are

> >100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the

> consequences of our

> >own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but

> this seems to

> >contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as

> your starting

> >point - you did not go as far back as you need to.

> I am not saying

> >this very well, let me try again.

> >

> >We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma

> make us behave

> >in a certain way, or give us good or bad results.

> However, it is not

> >a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to

> do something, that

> >a past action causes a reaction, which has to be

> worked through.

> >There was something else that came before that

> action ... and THAT

> >something was your free will to perform that

> action. Once you

> >exercise that free will, and perform a certain

> action, the outcome

> >is a given in many cases - whining that we can't

> exercise our free

> >will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I

> am oversimplifying

> >to make a point.... in reality free still exists,

> since you always

> >have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like

> throwing a ball

> >up in the air, you have the free will to throw it

> up if you want,

> >but the fact remains that it will come down because

> of gravity,

> >because THAT was the reaction that you set in

> motion with your

> >action done with 100% free will.

> >

> >Astrology is totally compatible with free will.

> Astrology shows the

> >what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things

> that are meant to

> >happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though,

> are the actions

> >that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly

> or unknowingly,

> >it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements

> such as Saturn

> >is causing sorrow, I always think of a really

> simple analogy. Say a

> >murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of

> the cop that

> >caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the

> prison warden that

> >prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding

> him? These are

> >the roles that the planets / houses / rasis /

> dispositers play. The

> >true cause is the murder that this criminal

> committed, when he

> >exercised his "free will", and that is what set the

> rest of the

> >events in motion.

> >

> >All these, strictly, MHO as always.

> >Venkatarama Sreelatha

> >

> >, partha

> sarathy

> ><partvinu5> wrote:

>

=== message truncated ===