Guest guest Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Dear Gili To an extent yes. I would put it this way, you have a choice to do whatever you want do. But your past actions(Including many a past lives) are always forbearing on the "DECISION" that you would take. Remember, You are always free to choose whatever you do. But the past actions catch up with you, most of the people just cannot avoid them, and hence repeat the same actions and subsequent reactions. This means playing the same way again and again, till we "Learn" the "WAY out of the matrix". best wishes partha , "Gili Mary" <xapsarax@h...> wrote: > Dear All, > Simply put ... isn't it just that we are dealt the cards but we have a > choice of how we play them? > Love,Gili > > >Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> > > > ><> > > 2-V.Sreelatha, > Re: Co-esistence of freedom & > >causality...., >Mark Kincaid...10/13 > >Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:23:43 -0500 > > > >Dear V. Sreelatha, & All: > > > >I think it's healthy to understand we have the power and potential of > >'freedom' and even 'free will', but,....also that.... > > > >that ability to exercise that free will, can and does get diminished, the > >more malefic influences are going on in our charts... > > > >Therefore it's possible to in fact, increase our ability to have more power > >of freedom of will. > > > >This means we can grow. > > > >The issue of free will and determinism.....looks like an eternal arguement, > >and there are good answers on both side... > > > >However, I believe that in some strange and mysterious way, the true answer > >is that 'both' do exist! > > > >I heard a famour guru, one time, being asked this very question. > > > >"Which is it free will or fate?" > > > >And the answer was......"both"! > > > >The problem is the intellect considers this to be an either/or question... > > > >But life has several, opposite and seemingly opposed qualites,....like > >'Absolute' & 'Relative',... > >and even,...'spirit & matter'... > > > >This debate, 'spirit & matter', was a very popular Philosophical discussion > >for centuries... but today, perhaps because more and more people > >'experience'....pure spirit.... > > > >this whole discussion has seemed to just go away.... > > > >Perhaps this free will & fate question and quagmire, will go the same > >way.... > > > >Perhaps in the same way that our nervous systems are able to > >simultaneously, > >hold on to the ability ....to be 'active'....and to be 'silent' at the same > >time.... > > > >maybe in such a way, we'll come to understand that freedom,...and > >causality...both co-exist! > > > >All I know for sure, is...that the more I develop my inner side, more > >awareness, more consciousness,...more power of Self... > > > >the more, true 'freedom' I feel! > > > >and the less 'bondage' to the outside, and to the old habits that used to > >be > >there... > > > >Maybe that's the best statement yet, for confirming,....the ability to grow > >in freedom! > > > >So, let's think of Astrology as including the qualities of 'fate' of past > >karmas, or consequences, but still, the ability to change, to grow, > >transform,....and even increase.....more '.....freedom....'. > > > > > >Jai Guru! > > > > > > > >Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry> > > > >Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:03:41 -0000 > > > > Fwd: Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Free will, > >Astrology & power of meditation, > Mark Kincaid...10/11 > > > > > > > >Dear Mark and Partha, > > > >It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we are > >100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of our > >own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to > >contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting > >point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not saying > >this very well, let me try again. > > > >We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us behave > >in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is not > >a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something, that > >a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through. > >There was something else that came before that action ... and THAT > >something was your free will to perform that action. Once you > >exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the outcome > >is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our free > >will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am oversimplifying > >to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you always > >have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a ball > >up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want, > >but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity, > >because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your > >action done with 100% free will. > > > >Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows the > >what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are meant to > >happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the actions > >that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly, > >it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as Saturn > >is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. Say a > >murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that > >caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that > >prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These are > >the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play. The > >true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he > >exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the > >events in motion. > > > >All these, strictly, MHO as always. > >Venkatarama Sreelatha > > > >, partha sarathy > ><partvinu5> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mark > > > > > > Well said. > > > > > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will case. > >The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE > >will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some discussions > >where people talk of a percentaged free will. > > > > > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the > >consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes in. > >But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free > >will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current > >decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The > >souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish definitely > >gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. The > >various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but > >projections of the same. > > > > > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad > >sani dasa etc. > > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa since > >last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but > >then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD" which > >i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride. > > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at > >our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the > >meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every soul is > >a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but the > >various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember > >more of who we are really. > > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what > >freedom is. > > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place, > >and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take > >decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I worked > >in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me. > > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive > >conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we are > >basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free. > > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY" > > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness" > > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we > >are "Invincibles" > > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative > >machines". > > > > > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it is > >not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, when i > >see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have tasted > >the bitter. > > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities. > > > best wishes > > > partha > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > Dear Partha: > > > > > > This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation' & > >Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial > >measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost. > > > > > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only remaining > >in the theoretical, cerebral part. > > > > > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of life. > > > > > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free > >will is a part of it. > > > > > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part of > >life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will, to > >evolve is too.! > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > partha sarathy <partvinu5> > > > Transcend-Meditation > > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT) > > > Transcend-Meditation > > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter & > >Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark > > > > > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga, the > >understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains > >inaccessible. > > > > > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last > >years spiritual transformation. > > > I started meditating last year, went for past life regression, saw > >some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So > >many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool to > >assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can progress in > >life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people > >having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of even > >astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre > >determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish > > > best wishes > > > partha > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Partha: > > > > > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at nature > >or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter & > >Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in life... > > > > > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a wonderful > >compliment to meditation and yoga for example. > > > > > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not > >understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their > >charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways.... > > > > > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out... > > > > > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to meditation.... > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more > >wonderful discussions, together... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > >/ > > > > > > > ><? subject=Un> > > > > Terms of Service > ><> . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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