Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Om, Dear latha ji, Yo are very right. The person who observes renunciation sees no difference in good/bad happenings. As you mentioned of sankalpa tyaaga....then he even need not to leave the worldly life. my concern is "whether the renunciation also predetermined?" Here 'leaving worldly life' and 'sankalpa tyaaga' both come under the scruitiny. Does Astrology predicts of how much a person can progress spiritually. Because astrologers explain the charts of spiritually developed persons / renounced persons in a way which shows that all this was predetermined. sincerely amit , "V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > Dear Amit Ji, > > It is so interesting that the perceptions of the people in this > thread are so similar, yet slightly different. I feel as if we are > all looking at the same diamond, from slightly different angles, and > see different facets ... each brilliant and beautiful, but each one > of a kind.. > > As for someone that retires from worldly life... the traditional > view is that all their Karmas, the good as well as the bad are given > up in the act of renunciation... you are not only renouncing the > world, but everything to do with the world... all that is left then > is the unencumbered and eternal Atma. > > The ball that is thrown up may come down, but you don't have to > catch it..... the desire to do so is itself renounced, along with > all other desires. this alone - what the geetha calls sankalpa > tyaag - is renounciation > > venkatarama sreelatha > > , "amit_call" > <amit_call> wrote: > > > > Dear Partha ji,Venkata ji, > > > > I feel free will is an attribute of soul. And all the planetry > > constitution belongs to our outer bodies. > > > > As partha ji said the outer bodies are bound to past karmas. > > To enjoy free will and to let it materialize one has to overcome > > one's past karmas. > > i felt many times obstructions due to my own limitations in the > way > > of free will to materialize. > > And also mere identification of those obstructive traits of my > outer > > bodies was not enough but all the work done by destiny was really > > needed to eradicate them. > > hence to materialize our free will (which is essentially 100%, but > > comes out to be less due to inadequecy of outer bodies thats what > a > > chart represents to),we need to develop our outer bodies equipped > > with some qualities. > > We are given these bodies as per our past karmas and the > consequences > > of past karmas which come to us as our fortune are essentially to > > develop ourselves. > > As said by partha ji :"The length of the rope again varies from > > person to person. The length of the rope is directly proportional > to > > the amount of "awareness" a person has." > > This awareness is to overcome to the limitations of our outer > > bodies.But we identify ourselves with these outer bodies only. > > Astrology is called "para vidya".free will comes in "Apara ". > > > > i have One question::"if a person leaves the worldly life how he > pays > > the debt of his past karmas".I think this also is predetermined. > > or as Venkata said ::"It's like throwing a ball > > > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you > want" > > he can use his free will(in leaving worldly life). > > going furthermore, is renunciation also predetermined??? > > > > sincerely, > > Amit > > > > > > > > , "V.Partha sarathy" > > <partvinu5> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Venkat > > > > > > > > > The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different > > > components. > > > > > > Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree, and the cow > can > > act > > > within the radius of that rope. Now cow can move very much > freely, > > > but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The reason is the weight of > > the > > > Karma(tree) that has been planted by the individual actions. > > > > > > The length of the rope again varies from person to person. The > > length > > > of the rope is directly proportional to the amount > of "awareness" a > > > person has. > > > Awareness is nothing but the knowledge of the soul. The more > > aspects > > > a person remembers, the more "centered" he becomes to his soul. > > > I am neither Partha, nor are you sreelatha. These are tools or > the > > > bodies for this lifetime. But havenot we undergone the joys and > > pains > > > thinking that we are parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that > we > > > totally identify ourselves with the body, with the mind. > > > This identification is nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to > popular > > > notion is not pride. It is the identification. Without a label, > > > without a name, the existence of a separate individual or object > is > > > not feasible. > > > All seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as > > > Arabian, and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined > these > > > names must have done for travelling purposes. > > > But arenot people miffed, when say a person erroneously mispells > > > their name? > > > > > > Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity > that "bears > > a > > > fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or tangible result. > > > One can be free from the results of his actions, if he chooses > his > > > free will to act without aspiration of result. Yes, free will is > > > the "first cause", then comes everything. But then we use our > free > > > will to get a particular result. ANd that is the trap. > > > > > > If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it may > > be, > > > then slowly you can get out of the trap. > > > > > > The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the > consequences > > > forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as a > > > perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime > even), > > > then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set > free > > > that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from my > > Fifth > > > body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer > is "Later" > > > Best wishes > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Mark and Partha, > > > > > > > > It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that > we > > > are > > > > 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences > of > > > our > > > > own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to > > > > contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your > starting > > > > point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not > > saying > > > > this very well, let me try again. > > > > > > > > We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us > > behave > > > > in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it > is > > > not > > > > a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do > something, > > > that > > > > a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked > through. > > > > There was something else that came before that action ... and > > THAT > > > > something was your free will to perform that action. Once you > > > > exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the > > outcome > > > > is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our > > free > > > > will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am > > > oversimplifying > > > > to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you > > always > > > > have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a > > ball > > > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you > want, > > > > but the fact remains that it will come down because of > gravity, > > > > because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your > > > > action done with 100% free will. > > > > > > > > Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology > shows > > the > > > > what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are > meant > > > to > > > > happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the > > actions > > > > that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or > unknowingly, > > > > it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as > > Saturn > > > > is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. > Say > > a > > > > murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop > that > > > > caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden > that > > > > prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These > > are > > > > the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers > play. > > The > > > > true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he > > > > exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of > the > > > > events in motion. > > > > > > > > All these, strictly, MHO as always. > > > > Venkatarama Sreelatha > > > > > > > > , partha sarathy > > > > <partvinu5> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark > > > > > > > > > > Well said. > > > > > > > > > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will > > case. > > > > The reason is quite simple, that when free will is > called "FREE > > > > will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some > > discussions > > > > where people talk of a percentaged free will. > > > > > > > > > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from > the > > > > consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma > comes > > in. > > > > But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our > free > > > > will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our > current > > > > decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. > The > > > > souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish > > definitely > > > > gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. > > The > > > > various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing > but > > > > projections of the same. > > > > > > > > > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a > bad > > > > sani dasa etc. > > > > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa > > since > > > > last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, > but > > > > then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD" > > > which > > > > i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride. > > > > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look > at > > > > our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the > > > > meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every > soul > > > is > > > > a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing > but > > the > > > > various manifestations of the divine play. They make us > remember > > > > more of who we are really. > > > > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn > what > > > > freedom is. > > > > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's > place, > > > > and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take > > > > decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I > > worked > > > > in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me. > > > > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive > > > > conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And > we > > are > > > > basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free. > > > > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY" > > > > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness" > > > > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we > > > > are "Invincibles" > > > > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative > > > > machines". > > > > > > > > > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what > it > > is > > > > not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, > > when > > > i > > > > see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have > > tasted > > > > the bitter. > > > > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities. > > > > > best wishes > > > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > Dear Partha: > > > > > > > > > > This is another reason why I'm excited about > this 'meditation' > > & > > > > Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial > > > > measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost. > > > > > > > > > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only > > > remaining > > > > in the theoretical, cerebral part. > > > > > > > > > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of > > life. > > > > > > > > > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, > free > > > > will is a part of it. > > > > > > > > > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a > part > > of > > > > life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's > will, > > > to > > > > evolve is too.! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > partha sarathy <partvinu5> > > > > > Transcend-Meditation > > > > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > Transcend-Meditation > > > > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: > Jupiter & > > > > Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and > yoga, > > > the > > > > understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains > > > > inaccessible. > > > > > > > > > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the > last > > > > years spiritual transformation. > > > > > I started meditating last year, went for past life > regression, > > > saw > > > > some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. > So > > > > many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a > tool > > to > > > > assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can > progress > > > in > > > > life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people > > > > having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation > of > > > even > > > > astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre > > > > determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish > > > > > best wishes > > > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Partha: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at > > nature > > > > or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter & > > > > Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in > > life... > > > > > > > > > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a > > wonderful > > > > compliment to meditation and yoga for example. > > > > > > > > > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who > not > > > > understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their > > > > charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways.... > > > > > > > > > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled > out... > > > > > > > > > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to > > > meditation.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many > more > > > > wonderful discussions, together... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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