Guest guest Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Dear Amit, You have asked "if a person leaves the worldly life how he pays the debt of his past karmas". Do you mean to say that a person who takes sanyas(or renounce wordly life) doesnt have a Karma? And secondly regarding paying of past karma once you throw the ball in the air, it may return in a trajectory where you have to catch it by going forward (or in either direction there is a movement). In a way you are being carried forward and so does the ball(even if you remain stationary you still needs to move arms in catching it). I hope you do understand. Gaurav , "amit_call" <amit_call> wrote: > > Dear Partha ji,Venkata ji, > > I feel free will is an attribute of soul. And all the planetry > constitution belongs to our outer bodies. > > As partha ji said the outer bodies are bound to past karmas. > To enjoy free will and to let it materialize one has to overcome > one's past karmas. > i felt many times obstructions due to my own limitations in the way > of free will to materialize. > And also mere identification of those obstructive traits of my outer > bodies was not enough but all the work done by destiny was really > needed to eradicate them. > hence to materialize our free will (which is essentially 100%, but > comes out to be less due to inadequecy of outer bodies thats what a > chart represents to),we need to develop our outer bodies equipped > with some qualities. > We are given these bodies as per our past karmas and the consequences > of past karmas which come to us as our fortune are essentially to > develop ourselves. > As said by partha ji :"The length of the rope again varies from > person to person. The length of the rope is directly proportional to > the amount of "awareness" a person has." > This awareness is to overcome to the limitations of our outer > bodies.But we identify ourselves with these outer bodies only. > Astrology is called "para vidya".free will comes in "Apara ". > > i have One question::"if a person leaves the worldly life how he pays > the debt of his past karmas".I think this also is predetermined. > or as Venkata said ::"It's like throwing a ball > > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want" > he can use his free will(in leaving worldly life). > going furthermore, is renunciation also predetermined??? > > sincerely, > Amit > > > > , "V.Partha sarathy" > <partvinu5> wrote: > > > > Dear Venkat > > > > > > The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different > > components. > > > > Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree, and the cow can > act > > within the radius of that rope. Now cow can move very much freely, > > but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The reason is the weight of > the > > Karma(tree) that has been planted by the individual actions. > > > > The length of the rope again varies from person to person. The > length > > of the rope is directly proportional to the amount of "awareness" a > > person has. > > Awareness is nothing but the knowledge of the soul. The more > aspects > > a person remembers, the more "centered" he becomes to his soul. > > I am neither Partha, nor are you sreelatha. These are tools or the > > bodies for this lifetime. But havenot we undergone the joys and > pains > > thinking that we are parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that we > > totally identify ourselves with the body, with the mind. > > This identification is nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to popular > > notion is not pride. It is the identification. Without a label, > > without a name, the existence of a separate individual or object is > > not feasible. > > All seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as > > Arabian, and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined these > > names must have done for travelling purposes. > > But arenot people miffed, when say a person erroneously mispells > > their name? > > > > Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity that "bears > a > > fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or tangible result. > > One can be free from the results of his actions, if he chooses his > > free will to act without aspiration of result. Yes, free will is > > the "first cause", then comes everything. But then we use our free > > will to get a particular result. ANd that is the trap. > > > > If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it may > be, > > then slowly you can get out of the trap. > > > > The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the consequences > > forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as a > > perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime even), > > then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set free > > that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from my > Fifth > > body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer is "Later" > > Best wishes > > partha > > > > > > > > , "V. Sreelatha" > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mark and Partha, > > > > > > It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we > > are > > > 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of > > our > > > own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to > > > contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting > > > point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not > saying > > > this very well, let me try again. > > > > > > We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us > behave > > > in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is > > not > > > a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something, > > that > > > a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through. > > > There was something else that came before that action ... and > THAT > > > something was your free will to perform that action. Once you > > > exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the > outcome > > > is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our > free > > > will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am > > oversimplifying > > > to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you > always > > > have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a > ball > > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want, > > > but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity, > > > because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your > > > action done with 100% free will. > > > > > > Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows > the > > > what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are meant > > to > > > happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the > actions > > > that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly, > > > it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as > Saturn > > > is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. Say > a > > > murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that > > > caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that > > > prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These > are > > > the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play. > The > > > true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he > > > exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the > > > events in motion. > > > > > > All these, strictly, MHO as always. > > > Venkatarama Sreelatha > > > > > > , partha sarathy > > > <partvinu5> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Mark > > > > > > > > Well said. > > > > > > > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will > case. > > > The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE > > > will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some > discussions > > > where people talk of a percentaged free will. > > > > > > > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the > > > consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes > in. > > > But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free > > > will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current > > > decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The > > > souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish > definitely > > > gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. > The > > > various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but > > > projections of the same. > > > > > > > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad > > > sani dasa etc. > > > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa > since > > > last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but > > > then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD" > > which > > > i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride. > > > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at > > > our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the > > > meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every soul > > is > > > a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but > the > > > various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember > > > more of who we are really. > > > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what > > > freedom is. > > > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place, > > > and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take > > > decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I > worked > > > in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me. > > > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive > > > conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we > are > > > basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free. > > > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY" > > > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness" > > > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we > > > are "Invincibles" > > > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative > > > machines". > > > > > > > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it > is > > > not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, > when > > i > > > see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have > tasted > > > the bitter. > > > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities. > > > > best wishes > > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > Dear Partha: > > > > > > > > This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation' > & > > > Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial > > > measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost. > > > > > > > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only > > remaining > > > in the theoretical, cerebral part. > > > > > > > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of > life. > > > > > > > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free > > > will is a part of it. > > > > > > > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part > of > > > life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will, > > to > > > evolve is too.! > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > partha sarathy <partvinu5> > > > > Transcend-Meditation > > > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT) > > > > Transcend-Meditation > > > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter & > > > Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mark > > > > > > > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga, > > the > > > understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains > > > inaccessible. > > > > > > > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last > > > years spiritual transformation. > > > > I started meditating last year, went for past life regression, > > saw > > > some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So > > > many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool > to > > > assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can progress > > in > > > life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people > > > having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of > > even > > > astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre > > > determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish > > > > best wishes > > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Partha: > > > > > > > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at > nature > > > or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter & > > > Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in > life... > > > > > > > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a > wonderful > > > compliment to meditation and yoga for example. > > > > > > > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not > > > understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their > > > charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways.... > > > > > > > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out... > > > > > > > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to > > meditation.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Kincaid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more > > > wonderful discussions, together... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.