RE: 2-V.Sreelatha, > Co-esistence of freedom & causality...., >Mark Kincaid...10/13

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

Simply put ... isn't it just that we are dealt the cards but we have a

choice of how we play them?

Love,Gili

 

>Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid

>

><>

> 2-V.Sreelatha, > Re: Co-esistence of freedom &

>causality...., >Mark Kincaid...10/13

>Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:23:43 -0500

>

>Dear V. Sreelatha, & All:

>

>I think it's healthy to understand we have the power and potential of

>'freedom' and even 'free will', but,....also that....

>

>that ability to exercise that free will, can and does get diminished, the

>more malefic influences are going on in our charts...

>

>Therefore it's possible to in fact, increase our ability to have more power

>of freedom of will.

>

>This means we can grow.

>

>The issue of free will and determinism.....looks like an eternal arguement,

>and there are good answers on both side...

>

>However, I believe that in some strange and mysterious way, the true answer

>is that 'both' do exist!

>

>I heard a famour guru, one time, being asked this very question.

>

>"Which is it free will or fate?"

>

>And the answer was......"both"!

>

>The problem is the intellect considers this to be an either/or question...

>

>But life has several, opposite and seemingly opposed qualites,....like

>'Absolute' & 'Relative',...

>and even,...'spirit & matter'...

>

>This debate, 'spirit & matter', was a very popular Philosophical discussion

>for centuries... but today, perhaps because more and more people

>'experience'....pure spirit....

>

>this whole discussion has seemed to just go away....

>

>Perhaps this free will & fate question and quagmire, will go the same

>way....

>

>Perhaps in the same way that our nervous systems are able to

>simultaneously,

>hold on to the ability ....to be 'active'....and to be 'silent' at the same

>time....

>

>maybe in such a way, we'll come to understand that freedom,...and

>causality...both co-exist!

>

>All I know for sure, is...that the more I develop my inner side, more

>awareness, more consciousness,...more power of Self...

>

>the more, true 'freedom' I feel!

>

>and the less 'bondage' to the outside, and to the old habits that used to

>be

>there...

>

>Maybe that's the best statement yet, for confirming,....the ability to grow

>in freedom!

>

>So, let's think of Astrology as including the qualities of 'fate' of past

>karmas, or consequences, but still, the ability to change, to grow,

>transform,....and even increase.....more '.....freedom....'.

>

>

>Jai Guru!

>

>

>

>Mark Kincaid

>

>

>

>

>

>

>"V. Sreelatha" <venkatarama_sastry

>

>Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:03:41 -0000

>

> Fwd: Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Free will,

>Astrology & power of meditation, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

>

>

>

>Dear Mark and Partha,

>

>It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we are

>100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of our

>own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

>contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting

>point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not saying

>this very well, let me try again.

>

>We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us behave

>in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is not

>a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something, that

>a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through.

>There was something else that came before that action ... and THAT

>something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

>exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the outcome

>is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our free

>will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am oversimplifying

>to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you always

>have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a ball

>up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want,

>but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity,

>because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

>action done with 100% free will.

>

>Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows the

>what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are meant to

>happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the actions

>that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly,

>it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as Saturn

>is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. Say a

>murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that

>caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that

>prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These are

>the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play. The

>true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

>exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the

>events in motion.

>

>All these, strictly, MHO as always.

>Venkatarama Sreelatha

>

>, partha sarathy

><partvinu5> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mark

> >

> > Well said.

> >

> > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will case.

>The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE

>will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some discussions

>where people talk of a percentaged free will.

> >

> > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the

>consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes in.

>But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free

>will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current

>decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The

>souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish definitely

>gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. The

>various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but

>projections of the same.

> >

> > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad

>sani dasa etc.

> > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa since

>last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but

>then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD" which

>i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at

>our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

>meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every soul is

>a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but the

>various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember

>more of who we are really.

> > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what

>freedom is.

> > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place,

>and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

>decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I worked

>in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

>conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we are

>basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

>are "Invincibles"

> > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

>machines".

> >

> > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it is

>not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, when i

>see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have tasted

>the bitter.

> > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> > best wishes

> > partha

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > Dear Partha:

> >

> > This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation' &

>Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

>measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

> >

> > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only remaining

>in the theoretical, cerebral part.

> >

> > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of life.

> >

> > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free

>will is a part of it.

> >

> > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part of

>life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will, to

>evolve is too.!

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> > Transcend-Meditation

> > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> > Transcend-Meditation

> > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter &

>Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Mark

> >

> > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga, the

>understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

>inaccessible.

> >

> > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last

>years spiritual transformation.

> > I started meditating last year, went for past life regression, saw

>some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So

>many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool to

>assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can progress in

>life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

>having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of even

>astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

>determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> > best wishes

> > partha

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Partha:

> >

> > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at nature

>or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

>Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in life...

> >

> > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a wonderful

>compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

> >

> > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not

>understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

>charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

> >

> > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out...

> >

> > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to meditation....

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid

> >

> >

> >

> > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more

>wonderful discussions, together...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

>

> Links

>

>/

>

>

>

><?subject=Un>

>

> Terms of Service

><> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

_______________

Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger

http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger