Fwd: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Free will, Astrology & power of meditation, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark

 

Well said.

 

I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will case. The reason is

quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE will" it cannot be in

percentages. But i have seen some discussions where people talk of a percentaged

free will.

 

What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the consequences of

our past actions. This is where our karma comes in. But this can never prove the

fact that we can exercise our free will. Past actions are always asserting

themselves on our current decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free

souls. The souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish definitely

gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. The various

techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but projections of the

same.

 

I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad sani dasa etc.

Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa since last 10 years.

yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but then i also became spiritual.

The setbacks made me "go INWARD" which i wouldnot have done had everything been

a jolly good ride.

Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at our souls, the

desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the meaning of life, at our

frailities, and our greatness. Every soul is a spark of divine life, and all our

experiences are nothing but the various manifestations of the divine play. They

make us remember more of who we are really.

Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what freedom is.

For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place, and i was very

much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take decisions that made me happy.

Every moment was a struggle. I worked in a newspaper company, and people abused

and shouted at me.

I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive conditons, made me

realise that we all long for freedom. And we are basically experiencing

restriction, to learn that we are free.

We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

We experience crippling conditions to learn that we are "Invincibles"

We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative machines".

 

All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it is not, it

remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, when i see the night. I

can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have tasted the bitter.

That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

best wishes

partha

 

 

Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid wrote:

Dear Partha:

 

This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation' & Astrology

group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial measures, the whole purpose

of Astrology is lost.

 

I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only remaining in the

theoretical, cerebral part.

 

And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of life.

 

But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free will is a part

of it.

 

In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part of life, being

dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will, to evolve is too.!

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

 

 

partha sarathy <partvinu5

Transcend-Meditation

Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

Transcend-Meditation

Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter & Saturn, > Mark

Kincaid...10/11

 

 

 

 

Dear Mark

 

Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga, the understanding

of metaphysical aspects of universe remains inaccessible.

 

I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last years spiritual

transformation.

I started meditating last year, went for past life regression, saw some 200 past

lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So many things have become

clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool to assess the potentialities of a person

and the way he can progress in life. Free will very much comes into picture, and

i see people having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of

even astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre determined and

is one of the black holes for Jyotish

best wishes

partha

 

 

Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid wrote:

 

Dear Partha:

 

Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at nature or

spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter & Saturn 'qualities', I started

getting a long much better in life...

 

This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to

meditation and yoga for example.

 

I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not understanding

either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their charts,...they still continued to

suffer, in ways....

 

that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out...

 

Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to meditation....

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more wonderful

discussions, together...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark and Partha,

 

It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we are

100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of our

own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting

point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not saying

this very well, let me try again.

 

We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us behave

in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is not

a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something, that

a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through.

There was something else that came before that action ... and THAT

something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the outcome

is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our free

will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am oversimplifying

to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you always

have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a ball

up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want,

but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity,

because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

action done with 100% free will.

 

Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows the

what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are meant to

happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the actions

that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly,

it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as Saturn

is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. Say a

murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that

caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that

prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These are

the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play. The

true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the

events in motion.

 

All these, strictly, MHO as always.

Venkatarama Sreelatha

 

, partha sarathy

<partvinu5> wrote:

>

> Dear Mark

>

> Well said.

>

> I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will case.

The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE

will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some discussions

where people talk of a percentaged free will.

>

> What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the

consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes in.

But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free

will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current

decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The

souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish definitely

gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. The

various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but

projections of the same.

>

> I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad

sani dasa etc.

> Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa since

last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but

then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD" which

i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at

our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every soul is

a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but the

various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember

more of who we are really.

> Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what

freedom is.

> For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place,

and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I worked

in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we are

basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

are "Invincibles"

> We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

machines".

>

> All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it is

not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, when i

see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have tasted

the bitter.

> That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> best wishes

> partha

>

>

> Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> Dear Partha:

>

> This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation' &

Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

>

> I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only remaining

in the theoretical, cerebral part.

>

> And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of life.

>

> But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free

will is a part of it.

>

> In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part of

life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will, to

evolve is too.!

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Mark Kincaid

>

>

>

>

>

> partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> Transcend-Meditation

> Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> Transcend-Meditation

> Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter &

Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

>

>

>

>

> Dear Mark

>

> Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga, the

understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

inaccessible.

>

> I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last

years spiritual transformation.

> I started meditating last year, went for past life regression, saw

some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So

many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool to

assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can progress in

life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of even

astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> best wishes

> partha

>

>

> Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

>

> Dear Partha:

>

> Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at nature

or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in life...

>

> This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a wonderful

compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

>

> I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not

understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

>

> that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out...

>

> Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to meditation....

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

> Mark Kincaid

>

>

>

> ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more

wonderful discussions, together...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Venkat

 

 

The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different

components.

 

Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree, and the cow can act

within the radius of that rope. Now cow can move very much freely,

but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The reason is the weight of the

Karma(tree) that has been planted by the individual actions.

 

The length of the rope again varies from person to person. The length

of the rope is directly proportional to the amount of "awareness" a

person has.

Awareness is nothing but the knowledge of the soul. The more aspects

a person remembers, the more "centered" he becomes to his soul.

I am neither Partha, nor are you sreelatha. These are tools or the

bodies for this lifetime. But havenot we undergone the joys and pains

thinking that we are parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that we

totally identify ourselves with the body, with the mind.

This identification is nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to popular

notion is not pride. It is the identification. Without a label,

without a name, the existence of a separate individual or object is

not feasible.

All seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as

Arabian, and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined these

names must have done for travelling purposes.

But arenot people miffed, when say a person erroneously mispells

their name?

 

Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity that "bears a

fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or tangible result.

One can be free from the results of his actions, if he chooses his

free will to act without aspiration of result. Yes, free will is

the "first cause", then comes everything. But then we use our free

will to get a particular result. ANd that is the trap.

 

If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it may be,

then slowly you can get out of the trap.

 

The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the consequences

forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as a

perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime even),

then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set free

that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from my Fifth

body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer is "Later"

Best wishes

partha

 

 

 

, "V. Sreelatha"

<venkatarama_sastry> wrote:

>

> Dear Mark and Partha,

>

> It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we

are

> 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of

our

> own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

> contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting

> point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not saying

> this very well, let me try again.

>

> We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us behave

> in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is

not

> a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something,

that

> a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through.

> There was something else that came before that action ... and THAT

> something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

> exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the outcome

> is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our free

> will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am

oversimplifying

> to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you always

> have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a ball

> up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want,

> but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity,

> because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

> action done with 100% free will.

>

> Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows the

> what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are meant

to

> happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the actions

> that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly,

> it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as Saturn

> is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. Say a

> murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that

> caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that

> prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These are

> the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play. The

> true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

> exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the

> events in motion.

>

> All these, strictly, MHO as always.

> Venkatarama Sreelatha

>

> , partha sarathy

> <partvinu5> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mark

> >

> > Well said.

> >

> > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will case.

> The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE

> will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some discussions

> where people talk of a percentaged free will.

> >

> > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the

> consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes in.

> But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free

> will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current

> decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The

> souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish definitely

> gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. The

> various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but

> projections of the same.

> >

> > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad

> sani dasa etc.

> > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa since

> last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but

> then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD"

which

> i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at

> our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

> meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every soul

is

> a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but the

> various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember

> more of who we are really.

> > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what

> freedom is.

> > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place,

> and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

> decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I worked

> in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

> conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we are

> basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

> are "Invincibles"

> > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

> machines".

> >

> > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it is

> not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, when

i

> see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have tasted

> the bitter.

> > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> > best wishes

> > partha

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > Dear Partha:

> >

> > This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation' &

> Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

> measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

> >

> > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only

remaining

> in the theoretical, cerebral part.

> >

> > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of life.

> >

> > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free

> will is a part of it.

> >

> > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part of

> life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will,

to

> evolve is too.!

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> > Transcend-Meditation

> > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> > Transcend-Meditation

> > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter &

> Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Mark

> >

> > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga,

the

> understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

> inaccessible.

> >

> > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last

> years spiritual transformation.

> > I started meditating last year, went for past life regression,

saw

> some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So

> many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool to

> assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can progress

in

> life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

> having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of

even

> astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

> determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> > best wishes

> > partha

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Partha:

> >

> > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at nature

> or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

> Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in life...

> >

> > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a wonderful

> compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

> >

> > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not

> understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

> charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

> >

> > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out...

> >

> > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to

meditation....

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> > Mark Kincaid

> >

> >

> >

> > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more

> wonderful discussions, together...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Partha ji,Venkata ji,

 

I feel free will is an attribute of soul. And all the planetry

constitution belongs to our outer bodies.

 

As partha ji said the outer bodies are bound to past karmas.

To enjoy free will and to let it materialize one has to overcome

one's past karmas.

i felt many times obstructions due to my own limitations in the way

of free will to materialize.

And also mere identification of those obstructive traits of my outer

bodies was not enough but all the work done by destiny was really

needed to eradicate them.

hence to materialize our free will (which is essentially 100%, but

comes out to be less due to inadequecy of outer bodies thats what a

chart represents to),we need to develop our outer bodies equipped

with some qualities.

We are given these bodies as per our past karmas and the consequences

of past karmas which come to us as our fortune are essentially to

develop ourselves.

As said by partha ji :"The length of the rope again varies from

person to person. The length of the rope is directly proportional to

the amount of "awareness" a person has."

This awareness is to overcome to the limitations of our outer

bodies.But we identify ourselves with these outer bodies only.

Astrology is called "para vidya".free will comes in "Apara ".

 

i have One question::"if a person leaves the worldly life how he pays

the debt of his past karmas".I think this also is predetermined.

or as Venkata said ::"It's like throwing a ball

> > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want"

he can use his free will(in leaving worldly life).

going furthermore, is renunciation also predetermined???

 

sincerely,

Amit

 

 

 

, "V.Partha sarathy"

<partvinu5> wrote:

>

> Dear Venkat

>

>

> The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different

> components.

>

> Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree, and the cow can

act

> within the radius of that rope. Now cow can move very much freely,

> but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The reason is the weight of

the

> Karma(tree) that has been planted by the individual actions.

>

> The length of the rope again varies from person to person. The

length

> of the rope is directly proportional to the amount of "awareness" a

> person has.

> Awareness is nothing but the knowledge of the soul. The more

aspects

> a person remembers, the more "centered" he becomes to his soul.

> I am neither Partha, nor are you sreelatha. These are tools or the

> bodies for this lifetime. But havenot we undergone the joys and

pains

> thinking that we are parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that we

> totally identify ourselves with the body, with the mind.

> This identification is nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to popular

> notion is not pride. It is the identification. Without a label,

> without a name, the existence of a separate individual or object is

> not feasible.

> All seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as

> Arabian, and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined these

> names must have done for travelling purposes.

> But arenot people miffed, when say a person erroneously mispells

> their name?

>

> Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity that "bears

a

> fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or tangible result.

> One can be free from the results of his actions, if he chooses his

> free will to act without aspiration of result. Yes, free will is

> the "first cause", then comes everything. But then we use our free

> will to get a particular result. ANd that is the trap.

>

> If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it may

be,

> then slowly you can get out of the trap.

>

> The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the consequences

> forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as a

> perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime even),

> then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set free

> that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from my

Fifth

> body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer is "Later"

> Best wishes

> partha

>

>

>

> , "V. Sreelatha"

> <venkatarama_sastry> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mark and Partha,

> >

> > It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we

> are

> > 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of

> our

> > own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

> > contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting

> > point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not

saying

> > this very well, let me try again.

> >

> > We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us

behave

> > in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is

> not

> > a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something,

> that

> > a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through.

> > There was something else that came before that action ... and

THAT

> > something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

> > exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the

outcome

> > is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our

free

> > will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am

> oversimplifying

> > to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you

always

> > have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a

ball

> > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want,

> > but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity,

> > because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

> > action done with 100% free will.

> >

> > Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows

the

> > what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are meant

> to

> > happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the

actions

> > that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly,

> > it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as

Saturn

> > is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. Say

a

> > murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that

> > caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that

> > prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These

are

> > the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play.

The

> > true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

> > exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the

> > events in motion.

> >

> > All these, strictly, MHO as always.

> > Venkatarama Sreelatha

> >

> > , partha sarathy

> > <partvinu5> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Mark

> > >

> > > Well said.

> > >

> > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will

case.

> > The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE

> > will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some

discussions

> > where people talk of a percentaged free will.

> > >

> > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the

> > consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes

in.

> > But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free

> > will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current

> > decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The

> > souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish

definitely

> > gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions.

The

> > various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but

> > projections of the same.

> > >

> > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad

> > sani dasa etc.

> > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa

since

> > last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but

> > then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD"

> which

> > i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at

> > our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

> > meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every soul

> is

> > a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but

the

> > various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember

> > more of who we are really.

> > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what

> > freedom is.

> > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place,

> > and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

> > decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I

worked

> > in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

> > conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we

are

> > basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

> > are "Invincibles"

> > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

> > machines".

> > >

> > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it

is

> > not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day,

when

> i

> > see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have

tasted

> > the bitter.

> > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> > > best wishes

> > > partha

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > Dear Partha:

> > >

> > > This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation'

&

> > Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

> > measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

> > >

> > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only

> remaining

> > in the theoretical, cerebral part.

> > >

> > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of

life.

> > >

> > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free

> > will is a part of it.

> > >

> > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part

of

> > life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will,

> to

> > evolve is too.!

> > >

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter &

> > Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Mark

> > >

> > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga,

> the

> > understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

> > inaccessible.

> > >

> > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last

> > years spiritual transformation.

> > > I started meditating last year, went for past life regression,

> saw

> > some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So

> > many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool

to

> > assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can progress

> in

> > life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

> > having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of

> even

> > astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

> > determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> > > best wishes

> > > partha

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Partha:

> > >

> > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at

nature

> > or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

> > Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in

life...

> > >

> > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a

wonderful

> > compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

> > >

> > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not

> > understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

> > charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

> > >

> > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out...

> > >

> > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to

> meditation....

> > >

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more

> > wonderful discussions, together...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

:-) Thank you for reminding me again of my true self, dear Partha.

It is so easy to identify with this body, with this life and look at

everything through sreelatha's eyes. You have elaborately explained

exactly what your namesake, the Lord Parthasaarathy explained in the

Geeta ... "Karmanyeva adhikaarastay, Maa phaleshu kadaachana....."

Your statement that "One can be free from the results of his

actions, if he chooses his

> free will to act without aspiration of result" is exactly what

this sloka states.

 

How powerful the pull of maya is, even though I think of this sloka

everyday, I did not think of this simple process for 100% free will.

I needed the "Sun" to shed light on this :-)

 

Sincerely,

Venkatarama Sreelatha

 

 

, "V.Partha sarathy"

<partvinu5> wrote:

>

> Dear Venkat

>

>

> The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different

> components.

>

> Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree, and the cow can

act

> within the radius of that rope. Now cow can move very much freely,

> but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The reason is the weight of

the

> Karma(tree) that has been planted by the individual actions.

>

> The length of the rope again varies from person to person. The

length

> of the rope is directly proportional to the amount of "awareness"

a

> person has.

> Awareness is nothing but the knowledge of the soul. The more

aspects

> a person remembers, the more "centered" he becomes to his soul.

> I am neither Partha, nor are you sreelatha. These are tools or the

> bodies for this lifetime. But havenot we undergone the joys and

pains

> thinking that we are parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that we

> totally identify ourselves with the body, with the mind.

> This identification is nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to popular

> notion is not pride. It is the identification. Without a label,

> without a name, the existence of a separate individual or object

is

> not feasible.

> All seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as

> Arabian, and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined these

> names must have done for travelling purposes.

> But arenot people miffed, when say a person erroneously mispells

> their name?

>

> Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity that "bears

a

> fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or tangible result.

> One can be free from the results of his actions, if he chooses his

> free will to act without aspiration of result. Yes, free will is

> the "first cause", then comes everything. But then we use our free

> will to get a particular result. ANd that is the trap.

>

> If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it may

be,

> then slowly you can get out of the trap.

>

> The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the consequences

> forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as a

> perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime

even),

> then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set free

> that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from my

Fifth

> body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer

is "Later"

> Best wishes

> partha

>

>

>

> , "V. Sreelatha"

> <venkatarama_sastry> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mark and Partha,

> >

> > It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we

> are

> > 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of

> our

> > own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

> > contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting

> > point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not

saying

> > this very well, let me try again.

> >

> > We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us

behave

> > in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is

> not

> > a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something,

> that

> > a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through.

> > There was something else that came before that action ... and

THAT

> > something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

> > exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the

outcome

> > is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our

free

> > will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am

> oversimplifying

> > to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you

always

> > have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a

ball

> > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you

want,

> > but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity,

> > because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

> > action done with 100% free will.

> >

> > Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows

the

> > what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are

meant

> to

> > happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the

actions

> > that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or

unknowingly,

> > it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as

Saturn

> > is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy.

Say a

> > murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that

> > caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that

> > prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These

are

> > the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play.

The

> > true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

> > exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of the

> > events in motion.

> >

> > All these, strictly, MHO as always.

> > Venkatarama Sreelatha

> >

> > , partha sarathy

> > <partvinu5> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Mark

> > >

> > > Well said.

> > >

> > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will

case.

> > The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called "FREE

> > will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some

discussions

> > where people talk of a percentaged free will.

> > >

> > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the

> > consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes

in.

> > But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free

> > will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our

current

> > decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls.

The

> > souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish

definitely

> > gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions.

The

> > various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing

but

> > projections of the same.

> > >

> > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad

> > sani dasa etc.

> > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa

since

> > last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but

> > then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD"

> which

> > i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look

at

> > our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

> > meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every

soul

> is

> > a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but

the

> > various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember

> > more of who we are really.

> > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn

what

> > freedom is.

> > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's

place,

> > and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

> > decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I

worked

> > in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

> > conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we

are

> > basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

> > are "Invincibles"

> > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

> > machines".

> > >

> > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it

is

> > not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day,

when

> i

> > see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have

tasted

> > the bitter.

> > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> > > best wishes

> > > partha

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > Dear Partha:

> > >

> > > This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation'

&

> > Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

> > measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

> > >

> > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only

> remaining

> > in the theoretical, cerebral part.

> > >

> > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of

life.

> > >

> > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology,

free

> > will is a part of it.

> > >

> > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part

of

> > life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's

will,

> to

> > evolve is too.!

> > >

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter

&

> > Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Mark

> > >

> > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga,

> the

> > understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

> > inaccessible.

> > >

> > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last

> > years spiritual transformation.

> > > I started meditating last year, went for past life regression,

> saw

> > some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd.

So

> > many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool

to

> > assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can

progress

> in

> > life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

> > having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of

> even

> > astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

> > determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> > > best wishes

> > > partha

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Partha:

> > >

> > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at

nature

> > or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

> > Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in

life...

> > >

> > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a

wonderful

> > compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

> > >

> > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not

> > understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

> > charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

> > >

> > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out...

> > >

> > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to

> meditation....

> > >

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Mark Kincaid

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more

> > wonderful discussions, together...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Amit Ji,

 

It is so interesting that the perceptions of the people in this

thread are so similar, yet slightly different. I feel as if we are

all looking at the same diamond, from slightly different angles, and

see different facets ... each brilliant and beautiful, but each one

of a kind..

 

As for someone that retires from worldly life... the traditional

view is that all their Karmas, the good as well as the bad are given

up in the act of renunciation... you are not only renouncing the

world, but everything to do with the world... all that is left then

is the unencumbered and eternal Atma.

 

The ball that is thrown up may come down, but you don't have to

catch it..... the desire to do so is itself renounced, along with

all other desires. this alone - what the geetha calls sankalpa

tyaag - is renounciation

 

venkatarama sreelatha

 

, "amit_call"

<amit_call> wrote:

>

> Dear Partha ji,Venkata ji,

>

> I feel free will is an attribute of soul. And all the planetry

> constitution belongs to our outer bodies.

>

> As partha ji said the outer bodies are bound to past karmas.

> To enjoy free will and to let it materialize one has to overcome

> one's past karmas.

> i felt many times obstructions due to my own limitations in the

way

> of free will to materialize.

> And also mere identification of those obstructive traits of my

outer

> bodies was not enough but all the work done by destiny was really

> needed to eradicate them.

> hence to materialize our free will (which is essentially 100%, but

> comes out to be less due to inadequecy of outer bodies thats what

a

> chart represents to),we need to develop our outer bodies equipped

> with some qualities.

> We are given these bodies as per our past karmas and the

consequences

> of past karmas which come to us as our fortune are essentially to

> develop ourselves.

> As said by partha ji :"The length of the rope again varies from

> person to person. The length of the rope is directly proportional

to

> the amount of "awareness" a person has."

> This awareness is to overcome to the limitations of our outer

> bodies.But we identify ourselves with these outer bodies only.

> Astrology is called "para vidya".free will comes in "Apara ".

>

> i have One question::"if a person leaves the worldly life how he

pays

> the debt of his past karmas".I think this also is predetermined.

> or as Venkata said ::"It's like throwing a ball

> > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you

want"

> he can use his free will(in leaving worldly life).

> going furthermore, is renunciation also predetermined???

>

> sincerely,

> Amit

>

>

>

> , "V.Partha sarathy"

> <partvinu5> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Venkat

> >

> >

> > The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different

> > components.

> >

> > Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree, and the cow

can

> act

> > within the radius of that rope. Now cow can move very much

freely,

> > but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The reason is the weight of

> the

> > Karma(tree) that has been planted by the individual actions.

> >

> > The length of the rope again varies from person to person. The

> length

> > of the rope is directly proportional to the amount

of "awareness" a

> > person has.

> > Awareness is nothing but the knowledge of the soul. The more

> aspects

> > a person remembers, the more "centered" he becomes to his soul.

> > I am neither Partha, nor are you sreelatha. These are tools or

the

> > bodies for this lifetime. But havenot we undergone the joys and

> pains

> > thinking that we are parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that

we

> > totally identify ourselves with the body, with the mind.

> > This identification is nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to

popular

> > notion is not pride. It is the identification. Without a label,

> > without a name, the existence of a separate individual or object

is

> > not feasible.

> > All seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as

> > Arabian, and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined

these

> > names must have done for travelling purposes.

> > But arenot people miffed, when say a person erroneously mispells

> > their name?

> >

> > Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity

that "bears

> a

> > fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or tangible result.

> > One can be free from the results of his actions, if he chooses

his

> > free will to act without aspiration of result. Yes, free will is

> > the "first cause", then comes everything. But then we use our

free

> > will to get a particular result. ANd that is the trap.

> >

> > If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it may

> be,

> > then slowly you can get out of the trap.

> >

> > The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the

consequences

> > forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as a

> > perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime

even),

> > then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set

free

> > that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from my

> Fifth

> > body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer

is "Later"

> > Best wishes

> > partha

> >

> >

> >

> > , "V. Sreelatha"

> > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Mark and Partha,

> > >

> > > It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that

we

> > are

> > > 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences

of

> > our

> > > own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

> > > contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your

starting

> > > point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not

> saying

> > > this very well, let me try again.

> > >

> > > We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us

> behave

> > > in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it

is

> > not

> > > a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do

something,

> > that

> > > a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked

through.

> > > There was something else that came before that action ... and

> THAT

> > > something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

> > > exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the

> outcome

> > > is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our

> free

> > > will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am

> > oversimplifying

> > > to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you

> always

> > > have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a

> ball

> > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you

want,

> > > but the fact remains that it will come down because of

gravity,

> > > because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

> > > action done with 100% free will.

> > >

> > > Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology

shows

> the

> > > what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are

meant

> > to

> > > happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the

> actions

> > > that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or

unknowingly,

> > > it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as

> Saturn

> > > is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy.

Say

> a

> > > murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop

that

> > > caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden

that

> > > prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These

> are

> > > the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers

play.

> The

> > > true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

> > > exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of

the

> > > events in motion.

> > >

> > > All these, strictly, MHO as always.

> > > Venkatarama Sreelatha

> > >

> > > , partha sarathy

> > > <partvinu5> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Mark

> > > >

> > > > Well said.

> > > >

> > > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will

> case.

> > > The reason is quite simple, that when free will is

called "FREE

> > > will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some

> discussions

> > > where people talk of a percentaged free will.

> > > >

> > > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from

the

> > > consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma

comes

> in.

> > > But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our

free

> > > will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our

current

> > > decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls.

The

> > > souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish

> definitely

> > > gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions.

> The

> > > various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing

but

> > > projections of the same.

> > > >

> > > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a

bad

> > > sani dasa etc.

> > > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa

> since

> > > last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride,

but

> > > then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go INWARD"

> > which

> > > i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> > > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look

at

> > > our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

> > > meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every

soul

> > is

> > > a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing

but

> the

> > > various manifestations of the divine play. They make us

remember

> > > more of who we are really.

> > > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn

what

> > > freedom is.

> > > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's

place,

> > > and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

> > > decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I

> worked

> > > in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> > > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

> > > conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And

we

> are

> > > basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> > > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> > > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> > > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

> > > are "Invincibles"

> > > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

> > > machines".

> > > >

> > > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what

it

> is

> > > not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day,

> when

> > i

> > > see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have

> tasted

> > > the bitter.

> > > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> > > > best wishes

> > > > partha

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > > Dear Partha:

> > > >

> > > > This is another reason why I'm excited about

this 'meditation'

> &

> > > Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

> > > measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

> > > >

> > > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only

> > remaining

> > > in the theoretical, cerebral part.

> > > >

> > > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of

> life.

> > > >

> > > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology,

free

> > > will is a part of it.

> > > >

> > > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a

part

> of

> > > life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's

will,

> > to

> > > evolve is too.!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> > > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> > > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re:

Jupiter &

> > > Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Mark

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and

yoga,

> > the

> > > understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

> > > inaccessible.

> > > >

> > > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the

last

> > > years spiritual transformation.

> > > > I started meditating last year, went for past life

regression,

> > saw

> > > some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd.

So

> > > many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a

tool

> to

> > > assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can

progress

> > in

> > > life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

> > > having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation

of

> > even

> > > astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

> > > determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> > > > best wishes

> > > > partha

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Partha:

> > > >

> > > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at

> nature

> > > or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

> > > Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in

> life...

> > > >

> > > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a

> wonderful

> > > compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

> > > >

> > > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who

not

> > > understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

> > > charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

> > > >

> > > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled

out...

> > > >

> > > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to

> > meditation....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mark Kincaid

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many

more

> > > wonderful discussions, together...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

But diamonds, Latha ji are beautiful because they are so symmetrical

(and this has been said of human faces too, the beautiful ones being

more symmetrical, in other words if you apply the mirror test to a

photo of either half of their face, the face in the mirror appears

the same!). So, should the 'real' diamond not have different 'facets'

but identical ones?

 

I know, I know ...

 

However, while it is brave not to be tempted to catch the falling

ball -- isn't the solution to dissociating from karma really,

avoiding that tossing up in the air?

 

I suppose I cannot avoid the karma created by this message by me!

 

Best regards,

 

RR

 

 

, "V. Sreelatha"

<venkatarama_sastry> wrote:

>

> Dear Amit Ji,

>

> It is so interesting that the perceptions of the people in this

> thread are so similar, yet slightly different. I feel as if we are

> all looking at the same diamond, from slightly different angles,

and

> see different facets ... each brilliant and beautiful, but each one

> of a kind..

>

> As for someone that retires from worldly life... the traditional

> view is that all their Karmas, the good as well as the bad are

given

> up in the act of renunciation... you are not only renouncing the

> world, but everything to do with the world... all that is left then

> is the unencumbered and eternal Atma.

>

> The ball that is thrown up may come down, but you don't have to

> catch it..... the desire to do so is itself renounced, along with

> all other desires. this alone - what the geetha calls sankalpa

> tyaag - is renounciation

>

> venkatarama sreelatha

>

> , "amit_call"

> <amit_call> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Partha ji,Venkata ji,

> >

> > I feel free will is an attribute of soul. And all the planetry

> > constitution belongs to our outer bodies.

> >

> > As partha ji said the outer bodies are bound to past karmas.

> > To enjoy free will and to let it materialize one has to overcome

> > one's past karmas.

> > i felt many times obstructions due to my own limitations in the

> way

> > of free will to materialize.

> > And also mere identification of those obstructive traits of my

> outer

> > bodies was not enough but all the work done by destiny was really

> > needed to eradicate them.

> > hence to materialize our free will (which is essentially 100%,

but

> > comes out to be less due to inadequecy of outer bodies thats what

> a

> > chart represents to),we need to develop our outer bodies equipped

> > with some qualities.

> > We are given these bodies as per our past karmas and the

> consequences

> > of past karmas which come to us as our fortune are essentially to

> > develop ourselves.

> > As said by partha ji :"The length of the rope again varies from

> > person to person. The length of the rope is directly proportional

> to

> > the amount of "awareness" a person has."

> > This awareness is to overcome to the limitations of our outer

> > bodies.But we identify ourselves with these outer bodies only.

> > Astrology is called "para vidya".free will comes in "Apara ".

> >

> > i have One question::"if a person leaves the worldly life how he

> pays

> > the debt of his past karmas".I think this also is predetermined.

> > or as Venkata said ::"It's like throwing a ball

> > > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you

> want"

> > he can use his free will(in leaving worldly life).

> > going furthermore, is renunciation also predetermined???

> >

> > sincerely,

> > Amit

> >

> >

> >

> > , "V.Partha sarathy"

> > <partvinu5> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Venkat

> > >

> > >

> > > The karma if i may be allowed to say is again has different

> > > components.

> > >

> > > Every person is like a cow who is tied to a tree, and the cow

> can

> > act

> > > within the radius of that rope. Now cow can move very much

> freely,

> > > but somehow cannot cross the Radius. The reason is the weight

of

> > the

> > > Karma(tree) that has been planted by the individual actions.

> > >

> > > The length of the rope again varies from person to person. The

> > length

> > > of the rope is directly proportional to the amount

> of "awareness" a

> > > person has.

> > > Awareness is nothing but the knowledge of the soul. The more

> > aspects

> > > a person remembers, the more "centered" he becomes to his soul.

> > > I am neither Partha, nor are you sreelatha. These are tools or

> the

> > > bodies for this lifetime. But havenot we undergone the joys and

> > pains

> > > thinking that we are parthas and sreelathas. The reason is that

> we

> > > totally identify ourselves with the body, with the mind.

> > > This identification is nothing but Ego. EGO as opposed to

> popular

> > > notion is not pride. It is the identification. Without a label,

> > > without a name, the existence of a separate individual or

object

> is

> > > not feasible.

> > > All seas are connected, but why do we then call Arabian sea as

> > > Arabian, and bay of Bengal as bay of bengal. Whoever coined

> these

> > > names must have done for travelling purposes.

> > > But arenot people miffed, when say a person erroneously

mispells

> > > their name?

> > >

> > > Coming back to karma, karma is defined as any activity

> that "bears

> > a

> > > fruit", bearing fruit implies for material or tangible result.

> > > One can be free from the results of his actions, if he chooses

> his

> > > free will to act without aspiration of result. Yes, free will

is

> > > the "first cause", then comes everything. But then we use our

> free

> > > will to get a particular result. ANd that is the trap.

> > >

> > > If you accept whatever happens to you, no matter whatever it

may

> > be,

> > > then slowly you can get out of the trap.

> > >

> > > The acceptance makes it possible to "throw away" the

> consequences

> > > forever. If i get ditched by a person, and i dont accept it as

a

> > > perfect reaction to an earlier action(maybe another lifetime

> even),

> > > then i "DO ADDITIONAL KARMA". If i accept and forgive, i set

> free

> > > that person, and thus i remove the weight of some karma from my

> > Fifth

> > > body. Now you may ask what is this fifth body, the answer

> is "Later"

> > > Best wishes

> > > partha

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "V. Sreelatha"

> > > <venkatarama_sastry> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Mark and Partha,

> > > >

> > > > It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that

> we

> > > are

> > > > 100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences

> of

> > > our

> > > > own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems

to

> > > > contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your

> starting

> > > > point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not

> > saying

> > > > this very well, let me try again.

> > > >

> > > > We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us

> > behave

> > > > in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it

> is

> > > not

> > > > a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do

> something,

> > > that

> > > > a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked

> through.

> > > > There was something else that came before that action ... and

> > THAT

> > > > something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

> > > > exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the

> > outcome

> > > > is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our

> > free

> > > > will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am

> > > oversimplifying

> > > > to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you

> > always

> > > > have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing

a

> > ball

> > > > up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you

> want,

> > > > but the fact remains that it will come down because of

> gravity,

> > > > because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with

your

> > > > action done with 100% free will.

> > > >

> > > > Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology

> shows

> > the

> > > > what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are

> meant

> > > to

> > > > happen. The true "cause" of the happennings though, are the

> > actions

> > > > that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or

> unknowingly,

> > > > it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as

> > Saturn

> > > > is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy.

> Say

> > a

> > > > murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop

> that

> > > > caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden

> that

> > > > prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him?

These

> > are

> > > > the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers

> play.

> > The

> > > > true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when

he

> > > > exercised his "free will", and that is what set the rest of

> the

> > > > events in motion.

> > > >

> > > > All these, strictly, MHO as always.

> > > > Venkatarama Sreelatha

> > > >

> > > > , partha sarathy

> > > > <partvinu5> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Mark

> > > > >

> > > > > Well said.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will

> > case.

> > > > The reason is quite simple, that when free will is

> called "FREE

> > > > will" it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some

> > discussions

> > > > where people talk of a percentaged free will.

> > > > >

> > > > > What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from

> the

> > > > consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma

> comes

> > in.

> > > > But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our

> free

> > > > will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our

> current

> > > > decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls.

> The

> > > > souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish

> > definitely

> > > > gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past

actions.

> > The

> > > > various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing

> but

> > > > projections of the same.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a

> bad

> > > > sani dasa etc.

> > > > > Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa

> > since

> > > > last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride,

> but

> > > > then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me "go

INWARD"

> > > which

> > > > i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> > > > > Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward,

look

> at

> > > > our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at

the

> > > > meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every

> soul

> > > is

> > > > a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing

> but

> > the

> > > > various manifestations of the divine play. They make us

> remember

> > > > more of who we are really.

> > > > > Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn

> what

> > > > freedom is.

> > > > > For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's

> place,

> > > > and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot

take

> > > > decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I

> > worked

> > > > in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> > > > > I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

> > > > conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And

> we

> > are

> > > > basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> > > > > We experience misery to feel that we are "JOY"

> > > > > We experience sadness to learn that we are "Happiness"

> > > > > We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

> > > > are "Invincibles"

> > > > > We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

> > > > machines".

> > > > >

> > > > > All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what

> it

> > is

> > > > not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day,

> > when

> > > i

> > > > see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have

> > tasted

> > > > the bitter.

> > > > > That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> > > > > best wishes

> > > > > partha

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > > > Dear Partha:

> > > > >

> > > > > This is another reason why I'm excited about

> this 'meditation'

> > &

> > > > Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on

remedial

> > > > measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only

> > > remaining

> > > > in the theoretical, cerebral part.

> > > > >

> > > > > And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of

> > life.

> > > > >

> > > > > But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology,

> free

> > > > will is a part of it.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a

> part

> > of

> > > > life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's

> will,

> > > to

> > > > evolve is too.!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Sincerely,

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mark Kincaid

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> > > > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > > > Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> > > > > Transcend-Meditation

> > > > > Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re:

> Jupiter &

> > > > Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Mark

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and

> yoga,

> > > the

> > > > understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

> > > > inaccessible.

> > > > >

> > > > > I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the

> last

> > > > years spiritual transformation.

> > > > > I started meditating last year, went for past life

> regression,

> > > saw

> > > > some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with

GOd.

> So

> > > > many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a

> tool

> > to

> > > > assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can

> progress

> > > in

> > > > life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see

people

> > > > having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation

> of

> > > even

> > > > astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

> > > > determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> > > > > best wishes

> > > > > partha

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Partha:

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at

> > nature

> > > > or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

> > > > Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in

> > life...

> > > > >

> > > > > This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a

> > wonderful

> > > > compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who

> not

> > > > understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

> > > > charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

> > > > >

> > > > > that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled

> out...

> > > > >

> > > > > Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to

> > > meditation....

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Sincerely,

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mark Kincaid

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many

> more

> > > > wonderful discussions, together...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >