Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dear Rohiniji, There is no difference of opinion here that lack of data on such events is serious problem for analysing the incident from astrological point of view. On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or your disillsionment etc, I beg to say following: May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa or dasa etc to have met such disillusionment. {{ I am not passing any judgement and saying "may be" }} Sometimes switching over to other path becomes much difficult due to loyality etc. Many-times unlearning becomes much difficult than to learn. Inder -- In , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > I approach jyotish and life with two perspectives, dear sir. One > deals with the practical and the other ethereal. While both can be > conceived and understood simultaneously, it is difficult and > confusing to try and describe the two at the same time, hence > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > In this context (group disasters, group deaths as in an accident > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to planet earth, humans!), the > ethereal take would be to talk about group karma, collective karma > and the dove-tailing that can be found in some descriptions. > However, attractive as these concepts may be and truly embracing > total reality, perhaps, they represent the enjoyment and > understanding of art and art objects. Jyotishis and others must > NEVER lose that perspective. > > However, there is the other perspective too, of the practical > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained aspects of art, the > learning and training of the artist whose karma it is to bring the > energy received through the right-brain into expression and sharing > of the beautiful energy that comes through the right-brain and > expressed through the left brain. I am using crude terms, right > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones like you would grasp the > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who appreciates exquisite cooking - - > now transferring that taste into an expression that makes him or her > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible dishes that others may > also enjoy. > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here on this practical list. > So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, > we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up > in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome > experience in earthly terms. > > In order to cook and to teach others to cook, there must be recipes > that can be followed and in this particular situation, the recipes > are missing because most if not all of us have not examined actual > charts of victims such as these. If we have not, how can we even > state the drama or reasons behind such cosmic dramas? I was merely > sounding caution. One of the biggest problems with astrology is that > it has a illusive logical structure which some would vehemently deny > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago when I had a lot of > bookish knowledge under my belt but little direct experience and > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy and logical and was so > sure that this or that dasha would bring things to focus and > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. The school of hard knocks > soon taught me that what appears in books, old and new is often not > true and simple or direct logic in terms of yogas etc. mysteriously > does not work in prospective analyses, aka predictive astrology. It > was not easy when innocence was challenged by nature and destroyed > and the real learning began. > > Perhaps like an overprotective older traveller, I wish to spare the > younger brothers and sisters the pain of disillusionment. This will > make me run against the grain of the established 'religion' of > astrology. So be it! > > RR > > > > , "om_tatsat_om" > <om_tatsat_om> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Dear RR, > > To differ does not mean to oppose. > > > > Sometimes this being also has deeply thought on this problem. > > The only plausible thing that comes to mind is, > > COLLECTIVE NEGETIVITY . > > When some negetive force comes together with another negetive > force, > > it is possible that there is a synergistic reaction. > > Meaning, 1+1 makes 2 but in synergistic reaction, it can make > 1+1=11. > > > > There is , thus a possibility that such a thing should occur. > > Collective state of being is also subject to collective fate. > > > > It is like, a body of villagers being imposed with a collective > > fine/punishment. > > Hope this might give a new perspective to your state of > perspective. > > > > Tatvam-Asi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@s...> > > wrote: > > > Questions like these really should make fatalistic astrologers > who > > > believe (publicly or privately) that fate is predestined > and 'atal' > > > (unchangeable), sit up and think. > > > > > > The only way to definitively figure out this puzzle or similar > ones > > > (there is no lack of events, floods, earthquakes, towers, > airplane > > > crashes, wars etc. abound aplenty). However, has any astrologer > > ever > > > looked at or managed to get good quality data of victims of such > > > horrible events and analysed those and come up with a documented > > > report? I have not heard of a single one that methodically looks > at > > > such events. So how can one even opine let alone give a > definitive > > > answer to such a puzzle? > > > > > > Even before that, can astrologers tell the exact moment of > death? > > If > > > they cannot tell the exact moment of death (okay even within a > > > couple of days...) then how can they figure out what caused > death > > in > > > so many with such different charts, etc.? This would be > requirement > > > #1 before your bigger and more complex astrological puzzle can > even > > > be attacked -- even if we do manage to get high quality data of > a > > > sizeable number of victims. And then there is the case that > comes > > to > > > mind from some 15-20 years ago when there was only one survivor > in > > a > > > airplane crash near Japan, a small child. There is also the WWII > > > instance of the pilot who fell down 20000 feet from his fighter > jet > > > and survived. > > > > > > I hope I am not perturbing the status quo by again going against > > the > > > grain or practice followed on this list. > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , "Manjunath, T \(MED\)" > > > <T.Manjunath@g...> wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, Good Morning to all, > > > > > > > > i am sure all of us must have heard or followed the tragedy > last > > > Friday.., > > > > where a fire accident at a local school in kumbakonam ( tamil > > > nadu) claimed > > > > 90 lives of young & innocent children. > > > > > > > > Yes, Shocking indeed, the whole weekend i spent wondering how > > such > > > > a disaster could not be kept under control & lives saved. > > > > > > > > I was just unable to control myself but ask these questions to > > the > > > group : > > > > > > > > 1. Can such incidents be predicted with astrological tools & > > > analysis? > > > > > > > > 2. certainly, the charts of the 90 kids cannot be the same, > so > > > how come > > > > they met this unfortunate end ?? > > > > > > > > Please lets have your thoughts & reading. > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > > > Manju Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 You are partly right. Back then I was using Lahiri ayanamsha and not taking into account Jaimini parameters ;-) RR , "Inder" <indervohra2001> wrote: > Dear Rohiniji, > There is no difference of opinion here that lack of data on such > events is serious problem for analysing the incident from > astrological point of view. > On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or your disillsionment etc, > I beg to say following: > May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa or dasa etc to have met > such disillusionment. > {{ I am not passing any judgement and saying "may be" }} > > Sometimes switching over to other path becomes much difficult due to > loyality etc. > > Many-times unlearning becomes much difficult than to learn. > Inder > > -- In , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > I approach jyotish and life with two perspectives, dear sir. One > > deals with the practical and the other ethereal. While both can be > > conceived and understood simultaneously, it is difficult and > > confusing to try and describe the two at the same time, hence > > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > > > In this context (group disasters, group deaths as in an accident > > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to planet earth, humans!), the > > ethereal take would be to talk about group karma, collective karma > > and the dove-tailing that can be found in some descriptions. > > However, attractive as these concepts may be and truly embracing > > total reality, perhaps, they represent the enjoyment and > > understanding of art and art objects. Jyotishis and others must > > NEVER lose that perspective. > > > > However, there is the other perspective too, of the practical > > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained aspects of art, the > > learning and training of the artist whose karma it is to bring the > > energy received through the right-brain into expression and > sharing > > of the beautiful energy that comes through the right-brain and > > expressed through the left brain. I am using crude terms, right > > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones like you would grasp > the > > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who appreciates exquisite cooking - > - > > now transferring that taste into an expression that makes him or > her > > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible dishes that others may > > also enjoy. > > > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here on this practical > list. > > So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, > > we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up > > in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome > > experience in earthly terms. > > > > In order to cook and to teach others to cook, there must be > recipes > > that can be followed and in this particular situation, the recipes > > are missing because most if not all of us have not examined actual > > charts of victims such as these. If we have not, how can we even > > state the drama or reasons behind such cosmic dramas? I was merely > > sounding caution. One of the biggest problems with astrology is > that > > it has a illusive logical structure which some would vehemently > deny > > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago when I had a lot of > > bookish knowledge under my belt but little direct experience and > > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy and logical and was so > > sure that this or that dasha would bring things to focus and > > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. The school of hard > knocks > > soon taught me that what appears in books, old and new is often > not > > true and simple or direct logic in terms of yogas etc. > mysteriously > > does not work in prospective analyses, aka predictive astrology. > It > > was not easy when innocence was challenged by nature and destroyed > > and the real learning began. > > > > Perhaps like an overprotective older traveller, I wish to spare > the > > younger brothers and sisters the pain of disillusionment. This > will > > make me run against the grain of the established 'religion' of > > astrology. So be it! > > > > RR > > > > > > > > , "om_tatsat_om" > > <om_tatsat_om> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello Dear RR, > > > To differ does not mean to oppose. > > > > > > Sometimes this being also has deeply thought on this problem. > > > The only plausible thing that comes to mind is, > > > COLLECTIVE NEGETIVITY . > > > When some negetive force comes together with another negetive > > force, > > > it is possible that there is a synergistic reaction. > > > Meaning, 1+1 makes 2 but in synergistic reaction, it can make > > 1+1=11. > > > > > > There is , thus a possibility that such a thing should occur. > > > Collective state of being is also subject to collective fate. > > > > > > It is like, a body of villagers being imposed with a collective > > > fine/punishment. > > > Hope this might give a new perspective to your state of > > perspective. > > > > > > Tatvam-Asi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > <rrgb@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > Questions like these really should make fatalistic astrologers > > who > > > > believe (publicly or privately) that fate is predestined > > and 'atal' > > > > (unchangeable), sit up and think. > > > > > > > > The only way to definitively figure out this puzzle or similar > > ones > > > > (there is no lack of events, floods, earthquakes, towers, > > airplane > > > > crashes, wars etc. abound aplenty). However, has any > astrologer > > > ever > > > > looked at or managed to get good quality data of victims of > such > > > > horrible events and analysed those and come up with a > documented > > > > report? I have not heard of a single one that methodically > looks > > at > > > > such events. So how can one even opine let alone give a > > definitive > > > > answer to such a puzzle? > > > > > > > > Even before that, can astrologers tell the exact moment of > > death? > > > If > > > > they cannot tell the exact moment of death (okay even within a > > > > couple of days...) then how can they figure out what caused > > death > > > in > > > > so many with such different charts, etc.? This would be > > requirement > > > > #1 before your bigger and more complex astrological puzzle can > > even > > > > be attacked -- even if we do manage to get high quality data > of > > a > > > > sizeable number of victims. And then there is the case that > > comes > > > to > > > > mind from some 15-20 years ago when there was only one > survivor > > in > > > a > > > > airplane crash near Japan, a small child. There is also the > WWII > > > > instance of the pilot who fell down 20000 feet from his > fighter > > jet > > > > and survived. > > > > > > > > I hope I am not perturbing the status quo by again going > against > > > the > > > > grain or practice followed on this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manjunath, T > \(MED\)" > > > > <T.Manjunath@g...> wrote: > > > > > Dear Friends, Good Morning to all, > > > > > > > > > > i am sure all of us must have heard or followed the tragedy > > last > > > > Friday.., > > > > > where a fire accident at a local school in kumbakonam ( > tamil > > > > nadu) claimed > > > > > 90 lives of young & innocent children. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Shocking indeed, the whole weekend i spent wondering > how > > > such > > > > > a disaster could not be kept under control & lives saved. > > > > > > > > > > I was just unable to control myself but ask these questions > to > > > the > > > > group : > > > > > > > > > > 1. Can such incidents be predicted with astrological tools > & > > > > analysis? > > > > > > > > > > 2. certainly, the charts of the 90 kids cannot be the same, > > so > > > > how come > > > > > they met this unfortunate end ?? > > > > > > > > > > Please lets have your thoughts & reading. > > > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > > > > > Manju Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Dear Sir, It will be very interesting to know whether your disallusionment disappered after discarding Lahiri. Inder - In , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > You are partly right. Back then I was using Lahiri ayanamsha and > not taking into account Jaimini parameters ;-) > > > RR > > > , "Inder" <indervohra2001> > wrote: > > Dear Rohiniji, > > There is no difference of opinion here that lack of data on such > > events is serious problem for analysing the incident from > > astrological point of view. > > On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or your disillsionment etc, > > I beg to say following: > > May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa or dasa etc to have met > > such disillusionment. > > {{ I am not passing any judgement and saying "may be" }} > > > > Sometimes switching over to other path becomes much difficult due to > > loyality etc. > > > > Many-times unlearning becomes much difficult than to learn. > > Inder > > > > -- In , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > > wrote: > > > I approach jyotish and life with two perspectives, dear sir. One > > > deals with the practical and the other ethereal. While both can be > > > conceived and understood simultaneously, it is difficult and > > > confusing to try and describe the two at the same time, hence > > > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > > > > > In this context (group disasters, group deaths as in an accident > > > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to planet earth, humans!), the > > > ethereal take would be to talk about group karma, collective karma > > > and the dove-tailing that can be found in some descriptions. > > > However, attractive as these concepts may be and truly embracing > > > total reality, perhaps, they represent the enjoyment and > > > understanding of art and art objects. Jyotishis and others must > > > NEVER lose that perspective. > > > > > > However, there is the other perspective too, of the practical > > > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained aspects of art, the > > > learning and training of the artist whose karma it is to bring the > > > energy received through the right-brain into expression and > > sharing > > > of the beautiful energy that comes through the right-brain and > > > expressed through the left brain. I am using crude terms, right > > > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones like you would grasp > > the > > > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who appreciates exquisite cooking > - > > - > > > now transferring that taste into an expression that makes him or > > her > > > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible dishes that others may > > > also enjoy. > > > > > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here on this practical > > list. > > > So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, > > > we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up > > > in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome > > > experience in earthly terms. > > > > > > In order to cook and to teach others to cook, there must be > > recipes > > > that can be followed and in this particular situation, the recipes > > > are missing because most if not all of us have not examined actual > > > charts of victims such as these. If we have not, how can we even > > > state the drama or reasons behind such cosmic dramas? I was merely > > > sounding caution. One of the biggest problems with astrology is > > that > > > it has a illusive logical structure which some would vehemently > > deny > > > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago when I had a lot of > > > bookish knowledge under my belt but little direct experience and > > > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy and logical and was so > > > sure that this or that dasha would bring things to focus and > > > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. The school of hard > > knocks > > > soon taught me that what appears in books, old and new is often > > not > > > true and simple or direct logic in terms of yogas etc. > > mysteriously > > > does not work in prospective analyses, aka predictive astrology. > > It > > > was not easy when innocence was challenged by nature and destroyed > > > and the real learning began. > > > > > > Perhaps like an overprotective older traveller, I wish to spare > > the > > > younger brothers and sisters the pain of disillusionment. This > > will > > > make me run against the grain of the established 'religion' of > > > astrology. So be it! > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "om_tatsat_om" > > > <om_tatsat_om> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Dear RR, > > > > To differ does not mean to oppose. > > > > > > > > Sometimes this being also has deeply thought on this problem. > > > > The only plausible thing that comes to mind is, > > > > COLLECTIVE NEGETIVITY . > > > > When some negetive force comes together with another negetive > > > force, > > > > it is possible that there is a synergistic reaction. > > > > Meaning, 1+1 makes 2 but in synergistic reaction, it can make > > > 1+1=11. > > > > > > > > There is , thus a possibility that such a thing should occur. > > > > Collective state of being is also subject to collective fate. > > > > > > > > It is like, a body of villagers being imposed with a collective > > > > fine/punishment. > > > > Hope this might give a new perspective to your state of > > > perspective. > > > > > > > > Tatvam-Asi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Questions like these really should make fatalistic astrologers > > > who > > > > > believe (publicly or privately) that fate is predestined > > > and 'atal' > > > > > (unchangeable), sit up and think. > > > > > > > > > > The only way to definitively figure out this puzzle or similar > > > ones > > > > > (there is no lack of events, floods, earthquakes, towers, > > > airplane > > > > > crashes, wars etc. abound aplenty). However, has any > > astrologer > > > > ever > > > > > looked at or managed to get good quality data of victims of > > such > > > > > horrible events and analysed those and come up with a > > documented > > > > > report? I have not heard of a single one that methodically > > looks > > > at > > > > > such events. So how can one even opine let alone give a > > > definitive > > > > > answer to such a puzzle? > > > > > > > > > > Even before that, can astrologers tell the exact moment of > > > death? > > > > If > > > > > they cannot tell the exact moment of death (okay even within a > > > > > couple of days...) then how can they figure out what caused > > > death > > > > in > > > > > so many with such different charts, etc.? This would be > > > requirement > > > > > #1 before your bigger and more complex astrological puzzle can > > > even > > > > > be attacked -- even if we do manage to get high quality data > > of > > > a > > > > > sizeable number of victims. And then there is the case that > > > comes > > > > to > > > > > mind from some 15-20 years ago when there was only one > > survivor > > > in > > > > a > > > > > airplane crash near Japan, a small child. There is also the > > WWII > > > > > instance of the pilot who fell down 20000 feet from his > > fighter > > > jet > > > > > and survived. > > > > > > > > > > I hope I am not perturbing the status quo by again going > > against > > > > the > > > > > grain or practice followed on this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manjunath, T > > \(MED\)" > > > > > <T.Manjunath@g...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friends, Good Morning to all, > > > > > > > > > > > > i am sure all of us must have heard or followed the tragedy > > > last > > > > > Friday.., > > > > > > where a fire accident at a local school in kumbakonam ( > > tamil > > > > > nadu) claimed > > > > > > 90 lives of young & innocent children. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Shocking indeed, the whole weekend i spent wondering > > how > > > > such > > > > > > a disaster could not be kept under control & lives saved. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was just unable to control myself but ask these questions > > to > > > > the > > > > > group : > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Can such incidents be predicted with astrological tools > > & > > > > > analysis? > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. certainly, the charts of the 90 kids cannot be the same, > > > so > > > > > how come > > > > > > they met this unfortunate end ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > Please lets have your thoughts & reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > > > > > > > Manju Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Yes it helped, in part. Or else I would not have continued with jyotish. , "Inder" <indervohra2001> wrote: > Dear Sir, > It will be very interesting to know whether your disallusionment > disappered after discarding Lahiri. > Inder > > - In , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > You are partly right. Back then I was using Lahiri ayanamsha and > > not taking into account Jaimini parameters ;-) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > , "Inder" > <indervohra2001> > > wrote: > > > Dear Rohiniji, > > > There is no difference of opinion here that lack of data on such > > > events is serious problem for analysing the incident from > > > astrological point of view. > > > On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or your disillsionment > etc, > > > I beg to say following: > > > May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa or dasa etc to have > met > > > such disillusionment. > > > {{ I am not passing any judgement and saying "may be" }} > > > > > > Sometimes switching over to other path becomes much difficult > due to > > > loyality etc. > > > > > > Many-times unlearning becomes much difficult than to learn. > > > Inder > > > > > > -- In , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > I approach jyotish and life with two perspectives, dear sir. > One > > > > deals with the practical and the other ethereal. While both > can be > > > > conceived and understood simultaneously, it is difficult and > > > > confusing to try and describe the two at the same time, hence > > > > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > > > > > > > In this context (group disasters, group deaths as in an > accident > > > > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to planet earth, humans!), > the > > > > ethereal take would be to talk about group karma, collective > karma > > > > and the dove-tailing that can be found in some descriptions. > > > > However, attractive as these concepts may be and truly > embracing > > > > total reality, perhaps, they represent the enjoyment and > > > > understanding of art and art objects. Jyotishis and others > must > > > > NEVER lose that perspective. > > > > > > > > However, there is the other perspective too, of the practical > > > > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained aspects of art, the > > > > learning and training of the artist whose karma it is to bring > the > > > > energy received through the right-brain into expression and > > > sharing > > > > of the beautiful energy that comes through the right-brain and > > > > expressed through the left brain. I am using crude terms, > right > > > > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones like you would > grasp > > > the > > > > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who appreciates exquisite > cooking > > - > > > - > > > > now transferring that taste into an expression that makes him > or > > > her > > > > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible dishes that others > may > > > > also enjoy. > > > > > > > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here on this practical > > > list. > > > > So, while collective karma might be driving the event in > question, > > > > we do not have a good technical handle on how these things > show up > > > > in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome > > > > experience in earthly terms. > > > > > > > > In order to cook and to teach others to cook, there must be > > > recipes > > > > that can be followed and in this particular situation, the > recipes > > > > are missing because most if not all of us have not examined > actual > > > > charts of victims such as these. If we have not, how can we > even > > > > state the drama or reasons behind such cosmic dramas? I was > merely > > > > sounding caution. One of the biggest problems with astrology > is > > > that > > > > it has a illusive logical structure which some would > vehemently > > > deny > > > > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago when I had a lot > of > > > > bookish knowledge under my belt but little direct experience > and > > > > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy and logical and was > so > > > > sure that this or that dasha would bring things to focus and > > > > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. The school of hard > > > knocks > > > > soon taught me that what appears in books, old and new is > often > > > not > > > > true and simple or direct logic in terms of yogas etc. > > > mysteriously > > > > does not work in prospective analyses, aka predictive > astrology. > > > It > > > > was not easy when innocence was challenged by nature and > destroyed > > > > and the real learning began. > > > > > > > > Perhaps like an overprotective older traveller, I wish to > spare > > > the > > > > younger brothers and sisters the pain of disillusionment. This > > > will > > > > make me run against the grain of the established 'religion' of > > > > astrology. So be it! > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "om_tatsat_om" > > > > <om_tatsat_om> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Dear RR, > > > > > To differ does not mean to oppose. > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes this being also has deeply thought on this problem. > > > > > The only plausible thing that comes to mind is, > > > > > COLLECTIVE NEGETIVITY . > > > > > When some negetive force comes together with another > negetive > > > > force, > > > > > it is possible that there is a synergistic reaction. > > > > > Meaning, 1+1 makes 2 but in synergistic reaction, it can > make > > > > 1+1=11. > > > > > > > > > > There is , thus a possibility that such a thing should occur. > > > > > Collective state of being is also subject to collective fate. > > > > > > > > > > It is like, a body of villagers being imposed with a > collective > > > > > fine/punishment. > > > > > Hope this might give a new perspective to your state of > > > > perspective. > > > > > > > > > > Tatvam-Asi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Questions like these really should make fatalistic > astrologers > > > > who > > > > > > believe (publicly or privately) that fate is predestined > > > > and 'atal' > > > > > > (unchangeable), sit up and think. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to definitively figure out this puzzle or > similar > > > > ones > > > > > > (there is no lack of events, floods, earthquakes, towers, > > > > airplane > > > > > > crashes, wars etc. abound aplenty). However, has any > > > astrologer > > > > > ever > > > > > > looked at or managed to get good quality data of victims > of > > > such > > > > > > horrible events and analysed those and come up with a > > > documented > > > > > > report? I have not heard of a single one that methodically > > > looks > > > > at > > > > > > such events. So how can one even opine let alone give a > > > > definitive > > > > > > answer to such a puzzle? > > > > > > > > > > > > Even before that, can astrologers tell the exact moment of > > > > death? > > > > > If > > > > > > they cannot tell the exact moment of death (okay even > within a > > > > > > couple of days...) then how can they figure out what > caused > > > > death > > > > > in > > > > > > so many with such different charts, etc.? This would be > > > > requirement > > > > > > #1 before your bigger and more complex astrological puzzle > can > > > > even > > > > > > be attacked -- even if we do manage to get high quality > data > > > of > > > > a > > > > > > sizeable number of victims. And then there is the case > that > > > > comes > > > > > to > > > > > > mind from some 15-20 years ago when there was only one > > > survivor > > > > in > > > > > a > > > > > > airplane crash near Japan, a small child. There is also > the > > > WWII > > > > > > instance of the pilot who fell down 20000 feet from his > > > fighter > > > > jet > > > > > > and survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope I am not perturbing the status quo by again going > > > against > > > > > the > > > > > > grain or practice followed on this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manjunath, T > > > \(MED\)" > > > > > > <T.Manjunath@g...> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Friends, Good Morning to all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am sure all of us must have heard or followed the > tragedy > > > > last > > > > > > Friday.., > > > > > > > where a fire accident at a local school in kumbakonam ( > > > tamil > > > > > > nadu) claimed > > > > > > > 90 lives of young & innocent children. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Shocking indeed, the whole weekend i spent > wondering > > > how > > > > > such > > > > > > > a disaster could not be kept under control & lives saved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was just unable to control myself but ask these > questions > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > group : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Can such incidents be predicted with astrological > tools > > > & > > > > > > analysis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. certainly, the charts of the 90 kids cannot be the > same, > > > > so > > > > > > how come > > > > > > > they met this unfortunate end ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please lets have your thoughts & reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manju Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hello are we implying that Lahari system is not so accurate?? --- rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > Yes it helped, in part. Or else I would not have > continued > with jyotish. > > , "Inder" > <indervohra2001> > wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > It will be very interesting to know whether your > disallusionment > > disappered after discarding Lahiri. > > Inder > > > > - In , > "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > > wrote: > > > You are partly right. Back then I was using > Lahiri ayanamsha and > > > not taking into account Jaimini parameters ;-) > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , "Inder" > > > <indervohra2001> > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Rohiniji, > > > > There is no difference of opinion here that > lack of data on such > > > > events is serious problem for analysing the > incident from > > > > astrological point of view. > > > > On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or > your disillsionment > > etc, > > > > I beg to say following: > > > > May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa or > dasa etc to have > > met > > > > such disillusionment. > > > > {{ I am not passing any judgement and saying > "may be" }} > > > > > > > > Sometimes switching over to other path becomes > much difficult > > due to > > > > loyality etc. > > > > > > > > Many-times unlearning becomes much difficult > than to learn. > > > > Inder > > > > > > > > -- In , > "rohiniranjan" > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > I approach jyotish and life with two > perspectives, dear sir. > > One > > > > > deals with the practical and the other > ethereal. While both > > can be > > > > > conceived and understood simultaneously, it > is difficult and > > > > > confusing to try and describe the two at the > same time, hence > > > > > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > > > > > > > > > In this context (group disasters, group > deaths as in an > > accident > > > > > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to > planet earth, humans!), > > the > > > > > ethereal take would be to talk about group > karma, collective > > karma > > > > > and the dove-tailing that can be found in > some descriptions. > > > > > However, attractive as these concepts may be > and truly > > embracing > > > > > total reality, perhaps, they represent the > enjoyment and > > > > > understanding of art and art objects. > Jyotishis and others > > must > > > > > NEVER lose that perspective. > > > > > > > > > > However, there is the other perspective too, > of the practical > > > > > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained > aspects of art, the > > > > > learning and training of the artist whose > karma it is to bring > > the > > > > > energy received through the right-brain into > expression and > > > > sharing > > > > > of the beautiful energy that comes through > the right-brain and > > > > > expressed through the left brain. I am using > crude terms, > > right > > > > > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones > like you would > > grasp > > > > the > > > > > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who > appreciates exquisite > > cooking > > > - > > > > - > > > > > now transferring that taste into an > expression that makes him > > or > > > > her > > > > > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible > dishes that others > > may > > > > > also enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here > on this practical > > > > list. > > > > > So, while collective karma might be driving > the event in > > question, > > > > > we do not have a good technical handle on > how these things > > show up > > > > > in charts, of individuals and of groups > sharing the gruesome > > > > > experience in earthly terms. > > > > > > > > > > In order to cook and to teach others to > cook, there must be > > > > recipes > > > > > that can be followed and in this particular > situation, the > > recipes > > > > > are missing because most if not all of us > have not examined > > actual > > > > > charts of victims such as these. If we have > not, how can we > > even > > > > > state the drama or reasons behind such > cosmic dramas? I was > > merely > > > > > sounding caution. One of the biggest > problems with astrology > > is > > > > that > > > > > it has a illusive logical structure which > some would > > vehemently > > > > deny > > > > > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago > when I had a lot > > of > > > > > bookish knowledge under my belt but little > direct experience > > and > > > > > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy > and logical and was > > so > > > > > sure that this or that dasha would bring > things to focus and > > > > > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. > The school of hard > > > > knocks > > > > > soon taught me that what appears in books, > old and new is > > often > > > > not > > > > > true and simple or direct logic in terms of > yogas etc. > > > > mysteriously > > > > > does not work in prospective analyses, aka > predictive > > astrology. > > > > It > > > > > was not easy when innocence was challenged > by nature and > > destroyed > > > > > and the real learning began. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps like an overprotective older > traveller, I wish to > > spare > > > > the > > > > > younger brothers and sisters the pain of > disillusionment. This > > > > will > > > > > make me run against the grain of the > established 'religion' of > > > > > astrology. So be it! > > > > > > === message truncated === Vote for the stars of 's next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.//votelifeengine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 It is a mystery that I am awaiting a satisfactory explanation for. Assuming that all users are honest and do not have personal agendas and have tried a few different values before settling down to one that worked best in their experience: a) It is mysterious that different values of ayanamshas work well in different people's hands. This requires that they have experimented with a large number of charts. Due to sampling variation, and the fact that astrology is not 100% accurate, regardless of unsubstantiated claims to the contrary, the cloud around this issue is rendered that much more difficult. b) Issue is complicated further by variant parameters such as parallax corrected moon, savanmana year and lunar year for dasha durations, and use of different techniques to suit the need for explaining an effect ("thok-peet jyotish" as I have heard it being called). In my personal usage, I have experimented with several ayanamshas and parameters such as 360 day year, dasha seeds based on Satya's recommendation, parallax-corrected moon, etc. While not perfect, I keep coming back to Raman ayanamsha which is essentially the value quoted from a panjika by Yukteshwar in Holy Science, with more modern annual rate of precession applied to it. I have written about it in several places. For others, including my students, I neither recommend nor force a given value or approach. I insist though that they take the hard- work approach of testing things out for themselves and not simply depend on 'strong' statements that exist in paper or silicon literature! RR , surya vishnubhotla <surya_prakashv> wrote: > Hello are we implying that Lahari system is not so > accurate?? > > --- rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > Yes it helped, in part. Or else I would not have > > continued > > with jyotish. > > > > , "Inder" > > <indervohra2001> > > wrote: > > > Dear Sir, > > > It will be very interesting to know whether your > > disallusionment > > > disappered after discarding Lahiri. > > > Inder > > > > > > - In , > > "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > You are partly right. Back then I was using > > Lahiri ayanamsha and > > > > not taking into account Jaimini parameters ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Inder" > > > > > <indervohra2001> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Rohiniji, > > > > > There is no difference of opinion here that > > lack of data on such > > > > > events is serious problem for analysing the > > incident from > > > > > astrological point of view. > > > > > On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or > > your disillsionment > > > etc, > > > > > I beg to say following: > > > > > May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa or > > dasa etc to have > > > met > > > > > such disillusionment. > > > > > {{ I am not passing any judgement and saying > > "may be" }} > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes switching over to other path becomes > > much difficult > > > due to > > > > > loyality etc. > > > > > > > > > > Many-times unlearning becomes much difficult > > than to learn. > > > > > Inder > > > > > > > > > > -- In , > > "rohiniranjan" > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I approach jyotish and life with two > > perspectives, dear sir. > > > One > > > > > > deals with the practical and the other > > ethereal. While both > > > can be > > > > > > conceived and understood simultaneously, it > > is difficult and > > > > > > confusing to try and describe the two at the > > same time, hence > > > > > > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > > > > > > > > > > > In this context (group disasters, group > > deaths as in an > > > accident > > > > > > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to > > planet earth, humans!), > > > the > > > > > > ethereal take would be to talk about group > > karma, collective > > > karma > > > > > > and the dove-tailing that can be found in > > some descriptions. > > > > > > However, attractive as these concepts may be > > and truly > > > embracing > > > > > > total reality, perhaps, they represent the > > enjoyment and > > > > > > understanding of art and art objects. > > Jyotishis and others > > > must > > > > > > NEVER lose that perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, there is the other perspective too, > > of the practical > > > > > > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained > > aspects of art, the > > > > > > learning and training of the artist whose > > karma it is to bring > > > the > > > > > > energy received through the right-brain into > > expression and > > > > > sharing > > > > > > of the beautiful energy that comes through > > the right-brain and > > > > > > expressed through the left brain. I am using > > crude terms, > > > right > > > > > > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones > > like you would > > > grasp > > > > > the > > > > > > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who > > appreciates exquisite > > > cooking > > > > - > > > > > - > > > > > > now transferring that taste into an > > expression that makes him > > > or > > > > > her > > > > > > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible > > dishes that others > > > may > > > > > > also enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here > > on this practical > > > > > list. > > > > > > So, while collective karma might be driving > > the event in > > > question, > > > > > > we do not have a good technical handle on > > how these things > > > show up > > > > > > in charts, of individuals and of groups > > sharing the gruesome > > > > > > experience in earthly terms. > > > > > > > > > > > > In order to cook and to teach others to > > cook, there must be > > > > > recipes > > > > > > that can be followed and in this particular > > situation, the > > > recipes > > > > > > are missing because most if not all of us > > have not examined > > > actual > > > > > > charts of victims such as these. If we have > > not, how can we > > > even > > > > > > state the drama or reasons behind such > > cosmic dramas? I was > > > merely > > > > > > sounding caution. One of the biggest > > problems with astrology > > > is > > > > > that > > > > > > it has a illusive logical structure which > > some would > > > vehemently > > > > > deny > > > > > > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago > > when I had a lot > > > of > > > > > > bookish knowledge under my belt but little > > direct experience > > > and > > > > > > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy > > and logical and was > > > so > > > > > > sure that this or that dasha would bring > > things to focus and > > > > > > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. > > The school of hard > > > > > knocks > > > > > > soon taught me that what appears in books, > > old and new is > > > often > > > > > not > > > > > > true and simple or direct logic in terms of > > yogas etc. > > > > > mysteriously > > > > > > does not work in prospective analyses, aka > > predictive > > > astrology. > > > > > It > > > > > > was not easy when innocence was challenged > > by nature and > > > destroyed > > > > > > and the real learning began. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps like an overprotective older > > traveller, I wish to > > > spare > > > > > the > > > > > > younger brothers and sisters the pain of > > disillusionment. This > > > > > will > > > > > > make me run against the grain of the > > established 'religion' of > > > > > > astrology. So be it! > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > Vote for the stars of 's next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.//votelifeengine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Hmm ... this is useful information for me .. But this messes up my total uinderstanding of myself !!! ... according to Raman ayanamsha mer, venus, mars for me will be then in 5th house and not 6th house .. in lahari they stand for the lord of 6th 8th and 12th houses (scorp asct) which is good in a way .. however having them in 5th is a huge change for me to digest for now ..>!! Also my nakshatra changes from Mula to uttarashada (or so) .. also all the dasas run back for a couple of years which is very difficult to grasp !!! What is fundamentally confusing is if the same rules are applicable to both the systems??? Lahari works fine for me (I noticed however that events happen approximately 2 months after they are indicated in the chart) ... I will try to cross verify events in both charts and lets see how it goes !! --- rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > It is a mystery that I am awaiting a satisfactory > explanation for. > > Assuming that all users are honest and do not have > personal agendas > and have tried a few different values before > settling down to one > that worked best in their experience: > > a) It is mysterious that different values of > ayanamshas work well in > different people's hands. This requires that they > have experimented > with a large number of charts. Due to sampling > variation, and the > fact that astrology is not 100% accurate, regardless > of > unsubstantiated claims to the contrary, the cloud > around this issue > is rendered that much more difficult. > > b) Issue is complicated further by variant > parameters such as > parallax corrected moon, savanmana year and lunar > year for dasha > durations, and use of different techniques to suit > the need for > explaining an effect ("thok-peet jyotish" as I have > heard it being > called). > > In my personal usage, I have experimented with > several ayanamshas > and parameters such as 360 day year, dasha seeds > based on Satya's > recommendation, parallax-corrected moon, etc. While > not perfect, I > keep coming back to Raman ayanamsha which is > essentially the value > quoted from a panjika by Yukteshwar in Holy Science, > with more > modern annual rate of precession applied to it. I > have written about > it in several places. > > For others, including my students, I neither > recommend nor force a > given value or approach. I insist though that they > take the hard- > work approach of testing things out for themselves > and not simply > depend on 'strong' statements that exist in paper or > silicon > literature! > > RR > > > , surya > vishnubhotla > <surya_prakashv> wrote: > > Hello are we implying that Lahari system is not so > > accurate?? > > > > --- rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > > Yes it helped, in part. Or else I would not have > > > continued > > > with jyotish. > > > > > > , "Inder" > > > <indervohra2001> > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > It will be very interesting to know whether > your > > > disallusionment > > > > disappered after discarding Lahiri. > > > > Inder > > > > > > > > - In , > > > "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > You are partly right. Back then I was using > > > Lahiri ayanamsha and > > > > > not taking into account Jaimini parameters > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > "Inder" > > > > > > > <indervohra2001> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rohiniji, > > > > > > There is no difference of opinion here > that > > > lack of data on such > > > > > > events is serious problem for analysing > the > > > incident from > > > > > > astrological point of view. > > > > > > On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or > > > your disillsionment > > > > etc, > > > > > > I beg to say following: > > > > > > May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa > or > > > dasa etc to have > > > > met > > > > > > such disillusionment. > > > > > > {{ I am not passing any judgement and > saying > > > "may be" }} > > > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes switching over to other path > becomes > > > much difficult > > > > due to > > > > > > loyality etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many-times unlearning becomes much > difficult > > > than to learn. > > > > > > Inder > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , > > > "rohiniranjan" > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I approach jyotish and life with two > > > perspectives, dear sir. > > > > One > > > > > > > deals with the practical and the other > > > ethereal. While both > > > > can be > > > > > > > conceived and understood simultaneously, > it > > > is difficult and > > > > > > > confusing to try and describe the two at > the > > > same time, hence > > > > > > > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this context (group disasters, group > > > deaths as in an > > > > accident > > > > > > > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to > > > planet earth, humans!), > > > > the > > > > > > > ethereal take would be to talk about > group > > > karma, collective > > > > karma > > > > > > > and the dove-tailing that can be found > in > > > some descriptions. > > > > > > > However, attractive as these concepts > may be > > > and truly > > > > embracing > > > > > > > total reality, perhaps, they represent > the > > > enjoyment and > > > > > > > understanding of art and art objects. > > > Jyotishis and others > > > > must > > > > > > > NEVER lose that perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, there is the other perspective > too, > > > of the practical > > > > > > > jyotish. This is akin to the > left-brained > > > aspects of art, the > > > > > > > learning and training of the artist > whose > > > karma it is to bring > > > > the > > > > > > > energy received through the right-brain > into > > > expression and > > > > > > sharing > > > > > > > of the beautiful energy that comes > through > > > the right-brain and > > > > > > > expressed through the left brain. I am > using > > > crude terms, > > > > right > > > > > > > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise > ones > > > like you would > > > > grasp > > > > > > the > > > > > > > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who > > > appreciates exquisite > > > > cooking > > > > > - > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 I am sorry, I really did not want to upset your current framework of reference and this is why I generally do not push the ayanamsha etc issue too much but the conversation got us doing that ... It is an oversimplification (and many of us get trapped into doing that) but in very few cases are the obvious rashi chart effects experienced, be they in terms of one's nature, traits or dasha effects. This sometimes happens but such uncanny coincidences become much diluted as one looks at more and more charts. In this context quantity is the clincher and not deep-study. Most of us get into the trap of focusing too much on one's own chart and then they begin to 'see' things. It is very very difficult to remain objective when one is looking at one's own chart, and particularly if one has somewhat fixed or black and white opinions about perceived reality (caveat: I am just saying this because I have seen it happen over the years and not judging you or this to be the case for you, since I hardly know you, truth be told). In a few of my articles I have written about two phenomena, namely, the Barnum effect and the Dodo bird effect. These are very interesting phenomena that influence astrology and astrologers. If you take a large number of chart with a given factor, such as moon in fifth or saturn in fifth, you will find that if you looked at their children, or even the first child, or their memory, the patterns are quite different and not necessary revealing of their true nature. Should then we use something like this to test or confirm ayanamsha? Should it be the case, no one would be happier than I, because I really want to believe in the convenience of being able to tell everything from one or two or three charts (say, the lagna, chandra and navamsha) but experienced/perceived reality keeps telling me otherwise. And this has been the case whether I used Lahiri, Raman, Yukteshwara (uncorrected), Dabke, Fagan or Usha- Shashi ayanamsha, all of which are some of the ones I tried over the years and all gave good concordances at one time or another for a given event or trait or another. Sadly, it is a reality that jyotish is not a divination methodology with sharp, crisp, boundaries between factors and this cautions us to get too comfortable with literal interpretations of factors such as a given planet in a house or in a rashi, etc. When more than one planets congregate, the complexity rises as does the importance of weighting in terms of figuring out which of the three would have the stronger influence. Texts indicate at times that in certain instances of the two planets operating, one will express strongly than the other and even express the deliverables promised (as per astrological rules) by the other (surrogate phenomena). I do not want to go on and on and bore readers with technical discussions on a medium like this, inadequate and choppy that it is, but if you wish to look into this objectively, first thing to do is to lay aside your own chart and look elsewhere. RR , surya vishnubhotla <surya_prakashv> wrote: > Hmm ... this is useful information for me .. > > But this messes up my total uinderstanding of myself > !!! ... according to Raman ayanamsha mer, venus, mars > for me will be then in 5th house and not 6th house .. > in lahari they stand for the lord of 6th 8th and 12th > houses (scorp asct) which is good in a way .. however > having them in 5th is a huge change for me to digest > for now ..>!! > > Also my nakshatra changes from Mula to uttarashada (or > so) .. also all the dasas run back for a couple of > years which is very difficult to grasp !!! > > What is fundamentally confusing is if the same rules > are applicable to both the systems??? > > Lahari works fine for me (I noticed however that > events happen approximately 2 months after they are > indicated in the chart) ... > > I will try to cross verify events in both charts and > lets see how it goes !! > > --- rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > It is a mystery that I am awaiting a satisfactory > > explanation for. > > > > Assuming that all users are honest and do not have > > personal agendas > > and have tried a few different values before > > settling down to one > > that worked best in their experience: > > > > a) It is mysterious that different values of > > ayanamshas work well in > > different people's hands. This requires that they > > have experimented > > with a large number of charts. Due to sampling > > variation, and the > > fact that astrology is not 100% accurate, regardless > > of > > unsubstantiated claims to the contrary, the cloud > > around this issue > > is rendered that much more difficult. > > > > b) Issue is complicated further by variant > > parameters such as > > parallax corrected moon, savanmana year and lunar > > year for dasha > > durations, and use of different techniques to suit > > the need for > > explaining an effect ("thok-peet jyotish" as I have > > heard it being > > called). > > > > In my personal usage, I have experimented with > > several ayanamshas > > and parameters such as 360 day year, dasha seeds > > based on Satya's > > recommendation, parallax-corrected moon, etc. While > > not perfect, I > > keep coming back to Raman ayanamsha which is > > essentially the value > > quoted from a panjika by Yukteshwar in Holy Science, > > with more > > modern annual rate of precession applied to it. I > > have written about > > it in several places. > > > > For others, including my students, I neither > > recommend nor force a > > given value or approach. I insist though that they > > take the hard- > > work approach of testing things out for themselves > > and not simply > > depend on 'strong' statements that exist in paper or > > silicon > > literature! > > > > RR > > > > > > , surya > > vishnubhotla > > <surya_prakashv> wrote: > > > Hello are we implying that Lahari system is not so > > > accurate?? > > > > > > --- rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > > > Yes it helped, in part. Or else I would not have > > > > continued > > > > with jyotish. > > > > > > > > , "Inder" > > > > <indervohra2001> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > It will be very interesting to know whether > > your > > > > disallusionment > > > > > disappered after discarding Lahiri. > > > > > Inder > > > > > > > > > > - In , > > > > "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > You are partly right. Back then I was using > > > > Lahiri ayanamsha and > > > > > > not taking into account Jaimini parameters > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > "Inder" > > > > > > > > > <indervohra2001> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Rohiniji, > > > > > > > There is no difference of opinion here > > that > > > > lack of data on such > > > > > > > events is serious problem for analysing > > the > > > > incident from > > > > > > > astrological point of view. > > > > > > > On your--innocence challenged/destroyed or > > > > your disillsionment > > > > > etc, > > > > > > > I beg to say following: > > > > > > > May be you chose wrong systems or ayanmsa > > or > > > > dasa etc to have > > > > > met > > > > > > > such disillusionment. > > > > > > > {{ I am not passing any judgement and > > saying > > > > "may be" }} > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes switching over to other path > > becomes > > > > much difficult > > > > > due to > > > > > > > loyality etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many-times unlearning becomes much > > difficult > > > > than to learn. > > > > > > > Inder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , > > > > "rohiniranjan" > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I approach jyotish and life with two > > > > perspectives, dear sir. > > > > > One > > > > > > > > deals with the practical and the other > > > > ethereal. While both > > > > > can be > > > > > > > > conceived and understood simultaneously, > > it > > > > is difficult and > > > > > > > > confusing to try and describe the two at > > the > > > > same time, hence > > > > > > > > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this context (group disasters, group > > > > deaths as in an > > > > > accident > > > > > > > > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to > > > > planet earth, humans!), > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ethereal take would be to talk about > > group > > > > karma, collective > > > > > karma > > > > > > > > and the dove-tailing that can be found > > in > > > > some descriptions. > > > > > > > > However, attractive as these concepts > > may be > > > > and truly > > > > > embracing > > > > > > > > total reality, perhaps, they represent > > the > > > > enjoyment and > > > > > > > > understanding of art and art objects. > > > > Jyotishis and others > > > > > must > > > > > > > > NEVER lose that perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, there is the other perspective > > too, > > > > of the practical > > > > > > > > jyotish. This is akin to the > > left-brained > > > > aspects of art, the > > > > > > > > learning and training of the artist > > whose > > > > karma it is to bring > > > > > the > > > > > > > > energy received through the right-brain > > into > > > > expression and > > > > > > > sharing > > > > > > > > of the beautiful energy that comes > > through > > > > the right-brain and > > > > > > > > expressed through the left brain. I am > > using > > > > crude terms, > > > > > right > > > > > > > > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise > > ones > > > > like you would > > > > > grasp > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who > > > > appreciates exquisite > > > > > cooking > > > > > > - > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Point taken, thanks. --- rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > I am sorry, I really did not want to upset your > current framework of > reference and this is why I generally do not push > the ayanamsha etc > issue too much but the conversation got us doing > that ... > > It is an oversimplification (and many of us get > trapped into doing > that) but in very few cases are the obvious rashi > chart effects > experienced, be they in terms of one's nature, > traits or dasha > effects. This sometimes happens but such uncanny > coincidences become > much diluted as one looks at more and more charts. > In this context > quantity is the clincher and not deep-study. Most of > us get into the > trap of focusing too much on one's own chart and > then they begin > to 'see' things. It is very very difficult to remain > objective when > one is looking at one's own chart, and particularly > if one has > somewhat fixed or black and white opinions about > perceived reality > (caveat: I am just saying this because I have seen > it happen over > the years and not judging you or this to be the case > for you, since > I hardly know you, truth be told). > > In a few of my articles I have written about two > phenomena, namely, > the Barnum effect and the Dodo bird effect. These > are very > interesting phenomena that influence astrology and > astrologers. > > If you take a large number of chart with a given > factor, such as > moon in fifth or saturn in fifth, you will find that > if you looked > at their children, or even the first child, or their > memory, the > patterns are quite different and not necessary > revealing of their > true nature. Should then we use something like this > to test or > confirm ayanamsha? Should it be the case, no one > would be happier > than I, because I really want to believe in the > convenience of being > able to tell everything from one or two or three > charts (say, the > lagna, chandra and navamsha) but > experienced/perceived reality keeps > telling me otherwise. And this has been the case > whether I used > Lahiri, Raman, Yukteshwara (uncorrected), Dabke, > Fagan or Usha- > Shashi ayanamsha, all of which are some of the ones > I tried over the > years and all gave good concordances at one time or > another for a > given event or trait or another. Sadly, it is a > reality that jyotish > is not a divination methodology with sharp, crisp, > boundaries > between factors and this cautions us to get too > comfortable with > literal interpretations of factors such as a given > planet in a house > or in a rashi, etc. When more than one planets > congregate, the > complexity rises as does the importance of weighting > in terms of > figuring out which of the three would have the > stronger influence. > Texts indicate at times that in certain instances of > the two planets > operating, one will express strongly than the other > and even express > the deliverables promised (as per astrological > rules) by the other > (surrogate phenomena). > > I do not want to go on and on and bore readers with > technical > discussions on a medium like this, inadequate and > choppy that it is, > but if you wish to look into this objectively, first > thing to do is > to lay aside your own chart and look elsewhere. > > RR > > > , surya > vishnubhotla > <surya_prakashv> wrote: > > Hmm ... this is useful information for me .. > > > > But this messes up my total uinderstanding of > myself > > !!! ... according to Raman ayanamsha mer, venus, > mars > > for me will be then in 5th house and not 6th house > .. > > in lahari they stand for the lord of 6th 8th and > 12th > > houses (scorp asct) which is good in a way .. > however > > having them in 5th is a huge change for me to > digest > > for now ..>!! > > > > Also my nakshatra changes from Mula to uttarashada > (or > > so) .. also all the dasas run back for a couple of > > years which is very difficult to grasp !!! > > > > What is fundamentally confusing is if the same > rules > > are applicable to both the systems??? > > > > Lahari works fine for me (I noticed however that > > events happen approximately 2 months after they > are > > indicated in the chart) ... > > > > I will try to cross verify events in both charts > and > > lets see how it goes !! > > > > --- rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > > It is a mystery that I am awaiting a > satisfactory > > > explanation for. > > > > > > Assuming that all users are honest and do not > have > > > personal agendas > > > and have tried a few different values before > > > settling down to one > > > that worked best in their experience: > > > > > > a) It is mysterious that different values of > > > ayanamshas work well in > > > different people's hands. This requires that > they > > > have experimented > > > with a large number of charts. Due to sampling > > > variation, and the > > > fact that astrology is not 100% accurate, > regardless > > > of > > > unsubstantiated claims to the contrary, the > cloud > > > around this issue > > > is rendered that much more difficult. > > > > > > b) Issue is complicated further by variant > > > parameters such as > > > parallax corrected moon, savanmana year and > lunar > > > year for dasha > > > durations, and use of different techniques to > suit > > > the need for > > > explaining an effect ("thok-peet jyotish" as I > have > > > heard it being > > > called). > > > > > > In my personal usage, I have experimented with > > > several ayanamshas > > > and parameters such as 360 day year, dasha seeds > > > based on Satya's > > > recommendation, parallax-corrected moon, etc. > While > > > not perfect, I > > > keep coming back to Raman ayanamsha which is > > > essentially the value > > > quoted from a panjika by Yukteshwar in Holy > Science, > > > with more > > > modern annual rate of precession applied to it. > I > > > have written about > > > it in several places. > > > > > > For others, including my students, I neither > > > recommend nor force a > > > given value or approach. I insist though that > they > > > take the hard- > > > work approach of testing things out for > themselves > > > and not simply > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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