Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I apologize for my limitations in communications! It was not an argument about statistics or numbers, but simply a comment that no jyotishi to my knowledge has really made a study of victims from the same accident etc. Unless such an investigation is actually made, extrapolating from family horoscopes, friends, cohorts etc. would be dicey. This is neither a plea for everyone to do methodical research nor to stop anyone from indulging in whatever their framework of divination is. RR , tatvam asi <om_tatsat_om> wrote: > Respected Sri RR, > > Self gets stumped with your language usage which is very rich and versatile. > Having worked for japanese for over 15 years has left a very basic and logical brain which refuses to enter the maze of complexities . > > In over last 35 years , undersigned has seen that people/assembly/students friends who are found to be close , invariably have similar planets. > Many of friends have similar planetary placements/similar planets like sat/Jup/Mars in same house etc. > Agreed that proper application of data checking is lacking in mass deaths and disasters, but self will stick to the gun that Birds of the same feather flock together. > Sometimes they suffer together. > Like shoal of fish being caught in the net/attacked by Dolphins/whales etc. > Safety in numbers sometimes works the other way too. > Well....there are 360 different perspectives to look at a point. > To each his own. > Tunde...Tunde (Munde Munde) Matir bhinna. > Tatvam-Asi > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > I approach jyotish and life with two perspectives, dear sir. One > deals with the practical and the other ethereal. While both can be > conceived and understood simultaneously, it is difficult and > confusing to try and describe the two at the same time, hence > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > In this context (group disasters, group deaths as in an accident > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to planet earth, humans!), the > ethereal take would be to talk about group karma, collective karma > and the dove-tailing that can be found in some descriptions. > However, attractive as these concepts may be and truly embracing > total reality, perhaps, they represent the enjoyment and > understanding of art and art objects. Jyotishis and others must > NEVER lose that perspective. > > However, there is the other perspective too, of the practical > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained aspects of art, the > learning and training of the artist whose karma it is to bring the > energy received through the right-brain into expression and sharing > of the beautiful energy that comes through the right-brain and > expressed through the left brain. I am using crude terms, right > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones like you would grasp the > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who appreciates exquisite cooking -- > now transferring that taste into an expression that makes him or her > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible dishes that others may > also enjoy. > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here on this practical list. > So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, > we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up > in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome > experience in earthly terms. > > In order to cook and to teach others to cook, there must be recipes > that can be followed and in this particular situation, the recipes > are missing because most if not all of us have not examined actual > charts of victims such as these. If we have not, how can we even > state the drama or reasons behind such cosmic dramas? I was merely > sounding caution. One of the biggest problems with astrology is that > it has a illusive logical structure which some would vehemently deny > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago when I had a lot of > bookish knowledge under my belt but little direct experience and > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy and logical and was so > sure that this or that dasha would bring things to focus and > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. The school of hard knocks > soon taught me that what appears in books, old and new is often not > true and simple or direct logic in terms of yogas etc. mysteriously > does not work in prospective analyses, aka predictive astrology. It > was not easy when innocence was challenged by nature and destroyed > and the real learning began. > > Perhaps like an overprotective older traveller, I wish to spare the > younger brothers and sisters the pain of disillusionment. This will > make me run against the grain of the established 'religion' of > astrology. So be it! > > RR > > > > , "om_tatsat_om" > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Dear RR, > > To differ does not mean to oppose. > > > > Sometimes this being also has deeply thought on this problem. > > The only plausible thing that comes to mind is, > > COLLECTIVE NEGETIVITY . > > When some negetive force comes together with another negetive > force, > > it is possible that there is a synergistic reaction. > > Meaning, 1+1 makes 2 but in synergistic reaction, it can make > 1+1=11. > > > > There is , thus a possibility that such a thing should occur. > > Collective state of being is also subject to collective fate. > > > > It is like, a body of villagers being imposed with a collective > > fine/punishment. > > Hope this might give a new perspective to your state of > perspective. > > > > Tatvam-Asi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > wrote: > > > Questions like these really should make fatalistic astrologers > who > > > believe (publicly or privately) that fate is predestined > and 'atal' > > > (unchangeable), sit up and think. > > > > > > The only way to definitively figure out this puzzle or similar > ones > > > (there is no lack of events, floods, earthquakes, towers, > airplane > > > crashes, wars etc. abound aplenty). However, has any astrologer > > ever > > > looked at or managed to get good quality data of victims of such > > > horrible events and analysed those and come up with a documented > > > report? I have not heard of a single one that methodically looks > at > > > such events. So how can one even opine let alone give a > definitive > > > answer to such a puzzle? > > > > > > Even before that, can astrologers tell the exact moment of > death? > > If > > > they cannot tell the exact moment of death (okay even within a > > > couple of days...) then how can they figure out what caused > death > > in > > > so many with such different charts, etc.? This would be > requirement > > > #1 before your bigger and more complex astrological puzzle can > even > > > be attacked -- even if we do manage to get high quality data of > a > > > sizeable number of victims. And then there is the case that > comes > > to > > > mind from some 15-20 years ago when there was only one survivor > in > > a > > > airplane crash near Japan, a small child. There is also the WWII > > > instance of the pilot who fell down 20000 feet from his fighter > jet > > > and survived. > > > > > > I hope I am not perturbing the status quo by again going against > > the > > > grain or practice followed on this list. > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , "Manjunath, T \(MED\)" > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, Good Morning to all, > > > > > > > > i am sure all of us must have heard or followed the tragedy > last > > > Friday.., > > > > where a fire accident at a local school in kumbakonam ( tamil > > > nadu) claimed > > > > 90 lives of young & innocent children. > > > > > > > > Yes, Shocking indeed, the whole weekend i spent wondering how > > such > > > > a disaster could not be kept under control & lives saved. > > > > > > > > I was just unable to control myself but ask these questions to > > the > > > group : > > > > > > > > 1. Can such incidents be predicted with astrological tools & > > > analysis? > > > > > > > > 2. certainly, the charts of the 90 kids cannot be the same, > so > > > how come > > > > they met this unfortunate end ?? > > > > > > > > Please lets have your thoughts & reading. > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > > > Manju > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > Links > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Dear RR, Tatvam asi & team... Sirs.. truly a complex issue, we were hoping for more. Plese bear with my writing since i am unable to clearly express my question, but here is what was going through my mind... Given the limitations on availability of quality data of victims or even if available, you had written " So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome experience in earthly terms." Question : Can geographical location play a factor & help ? i recall reading in the group ( either neeraj ji or gaurav ji ) that while the Mahabharat war took place, and even the Indo-pak wars, the planetary combinations ( is this the word) werent favourable ? Also, how then we explain the hot spots of the world where lives continue to be lost everday say, Kashmir, the Gaza strip & now iraq ? Yes, Disasters abound.. take the Kursk submarine that sank, or the challenger mission that had Chawla in the crew In India, i am sure, people do look up time-tables, rahu kaalam etc. etc. & then begin work, still that isnt a guarantee for smooth & trouble free progress... or for that matter divorces that would've happened after much chart busting & time choosing.. What's going on ? Humbly, Manju tatvam asi [om_tatsat_om] Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:40 PM Re: Re: Kumbakonam Incident Sri RR Respected Sri RR, Self gets stumped with your language usage which is very rich and versatile. Having worked for japanese for over 15 years has left a very basic and logical brain which refuses to enter the maze of complexities . In over last 35 years , undersigned has seen that people/assembly/students friends who are found to be close , invariably have similar planets. Many of friends have similar planetary placements/similar planets like sat/Jup/Mars in same house etc. Agreed that proper application of data checking is lacking in mass deaths and disasters, but self will stick to the gun that Birds of the same feather flock together. Sometimes they suffer together. Like shoal of fish being caught in the net/attacked by Dolphins/whales etc. Safety in numbers sometimes works the other way too. Well....there are 360 different perspectives to look at a point. To each his own. Tunde...Tunde (Munde Munde) Matir bhinna. Tatvam-Asi rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: I approach jyotish and life with two perspectives, dear sir. One deals with the practical and the other ethereal. While both can be conceived and understood simultaneously, it is difficult and confusing to try and describe the two at the same time, hence sometimes my postings confuse some. In this context (group disasters, group deaths as in an accident caused by nature or nature's *gift* to planet earth, humans!), the ethereal take would be to talk about group karma, collective karma and the dove-tailing that can be found in some descriptions. However, attractive as these concepts may be and truly embracing total reality, perhaps, they represent the enjoyment and understanding of art and art objects. Jyotishis and others must NEVER lose that perspective. However, there is the other perspective too, of the practical jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained aspects of art, the learning and training of the artist whose karma it is to bring the energy received through the right-brain into expression and sharing of the beautiful energy that comes through the right-brain and expressed through the left brain. I am using crude terms, right brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones like you would grasp the meaning. It is like a gourmand, who appreciates exquisite cooking -- now transferring that taste into an expression that makes him or her cook and reproduce the taste into tangible dishes that others may also enjoy. This is what hopefully we often discuss here on this practical list. So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome experience in earthly terms. In order to cook and to teach others to cook, there must be recipes that can be followed and in this particular situation, the recipes are missing because most if not all of us have not examined actual charts of victims such as these. If we have not, how can we even state the drama or reasons behind such cosmic dramas? I was merely sounding caution. One of the biggest problems with astrology is that it has a illusive logical structure which some would vehemently deny and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago when I had a lot of bookish knowledge under my belt but little direct experience and knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy and logical and was so sure that this or that dasha would bring things to focus and fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. The school of hard knocks soon taught me that what appears in books, old and new is often not true and simple or direct logic in terms of yogas etc. mysteriously does not work in prospective analyses, aka predictive astrology. It was not easy when innocence was challenged by nature and destroyed and the real learning began. Perhaps like an overprotective older traveller, I wish to spare the younger brothers and sisters the pain of disillusionment. This will make me run against the grain of the established 'religion' of astrology. So be it! RR , "om_tatsat_om" wrote: > > > Hello Dear RR, > To differ does not mean to oppose. > > Sometimes this being also has deeply thought on this problem. > The only plausible thing that comes to mind is, > COLLECTIVE NEGETIVITY . > When some negetive force comes together with another negetive force, > it is possible that there is a synergistic reaction. > Meaning, 1+1 makes 2 but in synergistic reaction, it can make 1+1=11. > > There is , thus a possibility that such a thing should occur. > Collective state of being is also subject to collective fate. > > It is like, a body of villagers being imposed with a collective > fine/punishment. > Hope this might give a new perspective to your state of perspective. > > Tatvam-Asi , "rohiniranjan" > wrote: > > Questions like these really should make fatalistic astrologers who > > believe (publicly or privately) that fate is predestined and 'atal' > > (unchangeable), sit up and think. > > > > The only way to definitively figure out this puzzle or similar ones > > (there is no lack of events, floods, earthquakes, towers, airplane > > crashes, wars etc. abound aplenty). However, has any astrologer > ever > > looked at or managed to get good quality data of victims of such > > horrible events and analysed those and come up with a documented > > report? I have not heard of a single one that methodically looks at > > such events. So how can one even opine let alone give a definitive > > answer to such a puzzle? > > > > Even before that, can astrologers tell the exact moment of death? > If > > they cannot tell the exact moment of death (okay even within a > > couple of days...) then how can they figure out what caused death > in > > so many with such different charts, etc.? This would be requirement > > #1 before your bigger and more complex astrological puzzle can even > > be attacked -- even if we do manage to get high quality data of a > > sizeable number of victims. And then there is the case that comes > to > > mind from some 15-20 years ago when there was only one survivor in > a > > airplane crash near Japan, a small child. There is also the WWII > > instance of the pilot who fell down 20000 feet from his fighter jet > > and survived. > > > > I hope I am not perturbing the status quo by again going against > the > > grain or practice followed on this list. > > > > > > RR > > > > > > , "Manjunath, T \(MED\)" > > wrote: > > > Dear Friends, Good Morning to all, > > > > > > i am sure all of us must have heard or followed the tragedy last > > Friday.., > > > where a fire accident at a local school in kumbakonam ( tamil > > nadu) claimed > > > 90 lives of young & innocent children. > > > > > > Yes, Shocking indeed, the whole weekend i spent wondering how > such > > > a disaster could not be kept under control & lives saved. > > > > > > I was just unable to control myself but ask these questions to > the > > group : > > > > > > 1. Can such incidents be predicted with astrological tools & > > analysis? > > > > > > 2. certainly, the charts of the 90 kids cannot be the same, so > > how come > > > they met this unfortunate end ?? > > > > > > Please lets have your thoughts & reading. > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > Manju ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2004 Report Share Posted July 25, 2004 My personal view (and I am sticking by it!): Internet discussions with their limitations and limited attention spans can only do one thing -- seed the lawn. Sure, the seeds would then need to be watered and hopefully someone made sure that there is rich nutritious soil (almost misspelt that as 'soul'!) laid down before the seeds were sprinkled, then mixed with the soil and then there was someone making sure that enough water was added over many days and the birds and squirrels were kept in check for the seeds to have a chance to grow. Yes geography is very important. The ancient reminder about, Place, Time and Tendencies has always made sense to me. It is conceivable and has been stated so, in ancient references and more relevantly today with a birth every second or so, that a son would likely be born to the multi-billionaire and his gardener at the same instant, and we know that in many cases the two would probably have different fates, just as many twins do. Yet another wrinkle of complexity that Vidhata threw at us to remind us that we must remain human until such time when Divinity embraces and uplifts us (those are carefully chosen words!) RR , "Manjunath, T \(MED\)" <T.Manjunath@g...> wrote: > Dear RR, Tatvam asi & team... > > Sirs.. truly a complex issue, we were hoping for more. Plese bear with my writing since i am unable to > clearly express my question, but here is what was going through my mind... > > Given the limitations on availability of quality data of victims or even if available, you had written > > " So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, > we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up > in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome > experience in earthly terms." > > Question : Can geographical location play a factor & help ? > > i recall reading in the group ( either neeraj ji or gaurav ji ) that while the Mahabharat war took place, > and even the Indo-pak wars, the planetary combinations ( is this the word) werent favourable ? > > Also, how then we explain the hot spots of the world where lives continue to be lost everday > say, Kashmir, the Gaza strip & now iraq ? > > Yes, Disasters abound.. take the Kursk submarine that sank, or the challenger mission that had Chawla in the crew > > In India, i am sure, people do look up time-tables, rahu kaalam etc. etc. & then begin work, > still that isnt a guarantee for smooth & trouble free progress... or for that matter > divorces that would've happened after much chart busting & time choosing.. What's going on ? > > Humbly, > Manju > > > > tatvam asi [om_tatsat_om] > Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:40 PM > > Re: Re: Kumbakonam Incident Sri RR > > > Respected Sri RR, > > Self gets stumped with your language usage which is very rich and versatile. > Having worked for japanese for over 15 years has left a very basic and logical brain which refuses to enter the maze of complexities . > > In over last 35 years , undersigned has seen that people/assembly/students friends who are found to be close , invariably have similar planets. > Many of friends have similar planetary placements/similar planets like sat/Jup/Mars in same house etc. > Agreed that proper application of data checking is lacking in mass deaths and disasters, but self will stick to the gun that Birds of the same feather flock together. > Sometimes they suffer together. > Like shoal of fish being caught in the net/attacked by Dolphins/whales etc. > Safety in numbers sometimes works the other way too. > Well....there are 360 different perspectives to look at a point. > To each his own. > Tunde...Tunde (Munde Munde) Matir bhinna. > Tatvam-Asi > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@s...> wrote: > I approach jyotish and life with two perspectives, dear sir. One > deals with the practical and the other ethereal. While both can be > conceived and understood simultaneously, it is difficult and > confusing to try and describe the two at the same time, hence > sometimes my postings confuse some. > > In this context (group disasters, group deaths as in an accident > caused by nature or nature's *gift* to planet earth, humans!), the > ethereal take would be to talk about group karma, collective karma > and the dove-tailing that can be found in some descriptions. > However, attractive as these concepts may be and truly embracing > total reality, perhaps, they represent the enjoyment and > understanding of art and art objects. Jyotishis and others must > NEVER lose that perspective. > > However, there is the other perspective too, of the practical > jyotish. This is akin to the left-brained aspects of art, the > learning and training of the artist whose karma it is to bring the > energy received through the right-brain into expression and sharing > of the beautiful energy that comes through the right-brain and > expressed through the left brain. I am using crude terms, right > brain, left brain, but I am sure wise ones like you would grasp the > meaning. It is like a gourmand, who appreciates exquisite cooking - - > now transferring that taste into an expression that makes him or her > cook and reproduce the taste into tangible dishes that others may > also enjoy. > > This is what hopefully we often discuss here on this practical list. > So, while collective karma might be driving the event in question, > we do not have a good technical handle on how these things show up > in charts, of individuals and of groups sharing the gruesome > experience in earthly terms. > > In order to cook and to teach others to cook, there must be recipes > that can be followed and in this particular situation, the recipes > are missing because most if not all of us have not examined actual > charts of victims such as these. If we have not, how can we even > state the drama or reasons behind such cosmic dramas? I was merely > sounding caution. One of the biggest problems with astrology is that > it has a illusive logical structure which some would vehemently deny > and argue against. Quite honestly, years ago when I had a lot of > bookish knowledge under my belt but little direct experience and > knowledge of charts, things seemed so easy and logical and was so > sure that this or that dasha would bring things to focus and > fruition, be it marriage, childbirth etc. The school of hard knocks > soon taught me that what appears in books, old and new is often not > true and simple or direct logic in terms of yogas etc. mysteriously > does not work in prospective analyses, aka predictive astrology. It > was not easy when innocence was challenged by nature and destroyed > and the real learning began. > > Perhaps like an overprotective older traveller, I wish to spare the > younger brothers and sisters the pain of disillusionment. This will > make me run against the grain of the established 'religion' of > astrology. So be it! > > RR > > > > , "om_tatsat_om" > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Dear RR, > > To differ does not mean to oppose. > > > > Sometimes this being also has deeply thought on this problem. > > The only plausible thing that comes to mind is, > > COLLECTIVE NEGETIVITY . > > When some negetive force comes together with another negetive > force, > > it is possible that there is a synergistic reaction. > > Meaning, 1+1 makes 2 but in synergistic reaction, it can make > 1+1=11. > > > > There is , thus a possibility that such a thing should occur. > > Collective state of being is also subject to collective fate. > > > > It is like, a body of villagers being imposed with a collective > > fine/punishment. > > Hope this might give a new perspective to your state of > perspective. > > > > Tatvam-Asi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > wrote: > > > Questions like these really should make fatalistic astrologers > who > > > believe (publicly or privately) that fate is predestined > and 'atal' > > > (unchangeable), sit up and think. > > > > > > The only way to definitively figure out this puzzle or similar > ones > > > (there is no lack of events, floods, earthquakes, towers, > airplane > > > crashes, wars etc. abound aplenty). However, has any astrologer > > ever > > > looked at or managed to get good quality data of victims of such > > > horrible events and analysed those and come up with a documented > > > report? I have not heard of a single one that methodically looks > at > > > such events. So how can one even opine let alone give a > definitive > > > answer to such a puzzle? > > > > > > Even before that, can astrologers tell the exact moment of > death? > > If > > > they cannot tell the exact moment of death (okay even within a > > > couple of days...) then how can they figure out what caused > death > > in > > > so many with such different charts, etc.? This would be > requirement > > > #1 before your bigger and more complex astrological puzzle can > even > > > be attacked -- even if we do manage to get high quality data of > a > > > sizeable number of victims. And then there is the case that > comes > > to > > > mind from some 15-20 years ago when there was only one survivor > in > > a > > > airplane crash near Japan, a small child. There is also the WWII > > > instance of the pilot who fell down 20000 feet from his fighter > jet > > > and survived. > > > > > > I hope I am not perturbing the status quo by again going against > > the > > > grain or practice followed on this list. > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , "Manjunath, T \(MED\)" > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, Good Morning to all, > > > > > > > > i am sure all of us must have heard or followed the tragedy > last > > > Friday.., > > > > where a fire accident at a local school in kumbakonam ( tamil > > > nadu) claimed > > > > 90 lives of young & innocent children. > > > > > > > > Yes, Shocking indeed, the whole weekend i spent wondering how > > such > > > > a disaster could not be kept under control & lives saved. > > > > > > > > I was just unable to control myself but ask these questions to > > the > > > group : > > > > > > > > 1. Can such incidents be predicted with astrological tools & > > > analysis? > > > > > > > > 2. certainly, the charts of the 90 kids cannot be the same, > so > > > how come > > > > they met this unfortunate end ?? > > > > > > > > Please lets have your thoughts & reading. > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > > > Manju > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > Links > > > > > > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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