Guest guest Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 You expressed so much of what I wanted to say. You wrote: And have you interviewed every Christian out there who has ‘done good for others’ and come to discover that their efforts were only for themselves? Did you read their minds? I think not. I see….I act. Love is action IMHO. As one who has spent time in the trenches with those who are homeless, with Aids, drug addicts, starving in the streets with their children, mental health problems and you name it…it never occurred to me that I was doing this in the hope that I might attain moksha or to get a ‘thank you’ or for recompense in any way. I did it because I was one of those children when I was young (my mother and I were homeless for a time when I was young and I remember that) and my mother was one of those women who were abused by spouses and the system with mental health issues….so in my mind every single woman I helped achieve a stable life WAS my mother and this time I could make a difference. As far as moksha…I really don’t care and I really wouldn’t know ‘how close’ my soul might possibly be in achieving that state. Wouldn’t it be nice if we just saw each other as a family on earth as opposed to being so detached to think that the only reason why we might attempt to care for one another is so that we can get something in return that furthers our ambitions? People need to come down here and wake up. You hit on something quite correct but I do add the caveat that I'm deeply interested in achieving a greater state of enlightenment, I don't want to ever become pompous on my path. This is why I asked the question about the intersections between the philosophical scripture and day to day trials. It seems to me that there are many who find it much easier to speak in the abstract about what makes a good hindu. But as I've been asking time and time again: what about the very real, very messy, very complicated concerns of life. For example, it's very easy for me to talk endlessly through philosophers like Foucault and Derrida about political contigencies. But how does my musing contribute to the men and women in the trenches of life struggling for a better world, cleaner water, stable homes, etc? Perhaps the frustration here is that there is a fine line between condescension and instruction. A very fine line. I was taught early on in my conversion to Hinduism that we must always be self critical about our own priviledge, our own judgements, our own arrogance. Renee Serrano <firecracker (AT) maineline (DOT) net> wrote: >From the start, the Christian religion is born using trahison, lying, betrayal of the Master (betrayal of His teaching), torture and kiling, plots and cunning, using the feeling of fear and terror... I am stopping here because I do not have enough vocabulary in english and am disgusted just at the thought of it... [me] So this means that no one can ‘get’ the principles ….ever….because it started out (I think not but ok…that’s your impression) with ‘betrayal’? Are you speaking of Constantine’s time which was quite awhile after Christ’s death or are you speaking right after his death when his apostles were still on this earth? [you] Just do not expect a thorny bush to give a sweet fruit. [me] You mean like raspberry bushes?? There are lots of thorny bushes that bear fruit just like rose bushes still bare beautiful flowers. There’s salt with the sweet… [you]Same with Hindus who are glorifying Gandhi even today. Such beautiful life, pure, holy, just most adorable and generous example of how sweet and exemplary a "spiritual life" can be, when Gandhi's dream was to destroy the system of Castes that is the primary key for the survival of the Veda (to keep the Primordial Sounds alive) during ou most dangerous yuga... and eventhough Indian culture has the responsability to keep Ved alive, Ved is the most precious treasure for the whole of Humanity... Knowledge is not indian, german of brittish, it is simply universal... so you see, I am feeling concerned ) [me] There are many people of various faiths who feel their sacred texts are a gift to humanity…. [you and Stephanie] There are many great Christian souls, who walk a dedicated and devout path, doing much good in their communities and in the world. I've walked both paths with tremendous devotion and I found that I was able to access God with a greater sense of peace and tranquility through Hinduism (and I still have so much growth). Don't try more to do good than to not do what you feel is bad... because good means "Right" and you do not know what is right before being spontaneously acting in harmony with cosmic laws (the wholeness of the natural laws found at work in the universe) and this is nothing less than cosmic Consciousness or Moksha... [me] Gee….I thought do unto others as you would have them do unto you was easier to do then what you stated above. How about ‘be like the lilies in the field…they toil not’ meaning don’t worry about it and just try to treat everyone as you would like them to treat you. I would not do what Mark did (not that I’m upset with him…I’m not)…which to me is a thoughtless insult including an entire group of people and putting them down without ever having known all of them because it is not in my heart to think that way. I would not want to be treated that way and included in a big lump “all brown people are savages” as I am brown, for example. I would not say that about any faith. [you]Don't be obsess to act only for the good of others because, whatever you do, you only do it for yourself... the difference is in the state of awareness, very little self, small self, growing experience of the Self or full establishment in the Self but the result is somehow the same... only the Self... from little ego to the "will of God" is only the growing experience of your own Self. [me] And have you interviewed every Christian out there who has ‘done good for others’ and come to discover that their efforts were only for themselves? Did you read their minds? I think not. I see….I act. Love is action IMHO. As one who has spent time in the trenches with those who are homeless, with Aids, drug addicts, starving in the streets with their children, mental health problems and you name it…it never occurred to me that I was doing this in the hope that I might attain moksha or to get a ‘thank you’ or for recompense in any way. I did it because I was one of those children when I was young (my mother and I were homeless for a time when I was young and I remember that) and my mother was one of those women who were abused by spouses and the system with mental health issues….so in my mind every single woman I helped achieve a stable life WAS my mother and this time I could make a difference. As far as moksha…I really don’t care and I really wouldn’t know ‘how close’ my soul might possibly be in achieving that state. Wouldn’t it be nice if we just saw each other as a family on earth as opposed to being so detached to think that the only reason why we might attempt to care for one another is so that we can get something in return that furthers our ambitions? People need to come down here and wake up. I am my brother’s keeper meaning if I see someone in pain….I care. If I can do something about it and put a smile on their face again or relief in their eyes….that’s a win for them and their family. [you] Don't try to strain of exacerbate the felling of Love. Love should be a simple, natural and spontaneous stream. [me] Have you ever been married? Had kids that are difficult? Love is something you work at….it’s dedication and sometimes you don’t feel like it. Sometimes you want to run down the street tearing your hair out because of one more obstacle within the family, one more night that someone makes demands upon you and you are just too tired to get up and read another story to your kid, help another kid with a term paper, get your spouse a pain pill because he hurts….however….because you love them…you do it. It’s all the little acts of loyalty and dedicated blood, sweat and tears that composes ‘love’. Sometimes spontaneous is the human animal self that wants to do something else other then one’s duty but your higher self doesn’t let you. Impulse is animal. Acting on one’s responsibilities requires thought. [you] Someone said that heaven is paved with good intentions. Doing good is "nice", (better satwa than tamas)... but what is important is to do "the Right Thing" (to act spontaneously in accord with all the laws of Nature). People can look gentle and good and will do nice acts of charity etc... this is "nice" indeed but what is important is really what the people "Are"... [me] Ummmmmmmm….the statement is ‘the road to HELL is paved with good intentions’. And who are we to truly be able to judge what is in another’s soul? Only God knows that. Each person’s individual lessons are personal to them. Don’t judge a book by its nice cover….or not so nice cover. This is my idea of what I feel is real in another: The Invitationby Oriah Mountain Dreamer It doesn't interest me what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for, and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart's longing. It doesn't interest me how old you are. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of being alive. It doesn't interest me what planets are squaring your moon. I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow, if you have been opened by life's betrayals or have become shriveled and closed from fear of further pain! I want to know if you can sit with pain, mine or your own, without moving to hide it or fade it, or fix it. I want to know if you can be with joy, mine or your own, if you can dance with wildness and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes without cautioning us to be careful, to be realistic, to remember the limitations of being human. It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithful and therefore trustworthy. I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day, and if you can source your own life from its presence. I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand on the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, "Yes!" It doesn't interest me to know where you live or how much money you have. I want to know if you can get up, after the night of grief and despair, weary and bruised to the bone, and do what needs to be done to feed the children. It doesn't interest me who you know or how you came to be here. I want to know if you will stand in the center of the fire with me and not shrink back. It doesn't interest me where or what or with whom you have studied. I want to know what sustains you, from the inside, when all else falls away. I want to know if you can be alone with yourself and if you truly like the company you keep in the empty moments. byOriah Mountain Dreamer Renee ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ To visit your group on the web, go to:/ To from this group, send an email to: Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Well…. I remember Yogananda saying in one of his books to not worry about everyone else’s spirituality and just focus on one’s own spirituality….or spiritual growth. To me nations will rise and nations will fall so my musing on any world subject doesn’t matter. I try to be awake and aware enough to vote responsibly and do what little I can within my small world but I concentrate doing whatever I do as best I can from the heart. We will probably always have poverty, always have war…there will always ‘be the stage’ in this world with each of us playing a role. However the role itself is meaningless unless one lives in the Now….feels all that one should or can feel in that ‘skin’ and express whatever it is the creator wanted you to experience and express in that skin. Otherwise how are you going to fully learn the lessons of that life if you ‘weren’t there’? Some of us play the guru, some of us the chela and for them ‘detachment’ and discernment are a part of their role. Some masters are beggars and are trying to teach us compassion. Some people who misquote famous sayings <G> are irritating and try to teach us something without us realizing it. Each to his role knowing that ultimately divine order rules all things, right? As above…so below. So for me, I’m just going to be me and fully be aware of all that is going on in my life and with those around me so that I can express my ability to respond (responsibility) as best I can. Can ya tell Saturn conj Jupiter is strong in my chart in the 10th or what? LOL…I think I need a vacation! Renee Stephanie Marie [chotoprajapati ] 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">Sunday, January 18, 2004 font-family:Tahoma">7:59 PM To: RE: regarding Judgements Renee: You expressed so much of what I wanted to say. You wrote: margin-left:.5in">And have you interviewed every Christian out there who has ‘done good for others’ and come to discover that their efforts were only for themselves? Did you read their minds? I think not. I see….I act. Love is action IMHO. As one who has spent time in the trenches with those who are homeless, with Aids, drug addicts, starving in the streets with their children, mental health problems and you name it…it never occurred to me that I was doing this in the hope that I might attain moksha or to get a ‘thank you’ or for recompense in any way. I did it because I was one of those children when I was young (my mother and I were homeless for a time when I was young and I remember that) and my mother was one of those women who were abused by spouses and the system with mental health issues….so in my mind every single woman I helped achieve a stable life WAS my mother and this time I could make a difference. As far as moksha…I really don’t care and I really wouldn’t know ‘how close’ my soul might possibly be in achieving that state. Wouldn’t it be nice if we just saw each other as a family on earth as opposed to being so detached to think that the only reason why we might attempt to care for one another is so that we can get something in return that furthers our ambitions? People need to come down here and wake up. margin-left:.5in"> 12.0pt"> margin-left:.5in">You hit on something quite correct but I do add the caveat that I'm deeply interested in achieving a greater state of enlightenment, I don't want to ever become pompous on my path. This is why I asked the question about the intersections between the philosophical scripture and day to day trials. It seems to me that there are many who find it much easier to speak in the abstract about what makes a good hindu. But as I've been asking time and time again: what about the very real, very messy, very complicated concerns of life. For example, it's very easy for me to talk endlessly through philosophers like Foucault and Derrida about political contigencies. But how does my musing contribute to the men and women in the trenches of life struggling for a better world, cleaner water, stable homes, etc? margin-left:.5in"> 12.0pt"> margin-left:.5in">Perhaps the frustration here is that there is a fine line between condescension and instruction. A very fine line. I was taught early on in my conversion to Hinduism that we must always be self critical about our own priviledge, our own judgements, our own arrogance. Renee Serrano <firecracker (AT) maineline (DOT) net> wrote: margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> >From the start, the Christian religion is born using trahison, lying, betrayal of the Master (betrayal of His teaching), torture and kiling, plots and cunning, using the feeling of fear and terror... I am stopping here because I do not have enough vocabulary in english and am disgusted just at the thought of it... [me] So this means that no one can ‘get’ the principles ….ever….because it started out (I think not but ok…that’s your impression) with ‘betrayal’? Are you speaking of Constantine’s time which was quite awhile after Christ’s death or are you speaking right after his death when his apostles were still on this earth? [you] Just do not expect a thorny bush to give a sweet fruit. [me] You mean like raspberry bushes?? There are lots of thorny bushes that bear fruit just like rose bushes still bare beautiful flowers. There’s salt with the sweet… [you] Same with Hindus who are glorifying Gandhi even today. Such beautiful life, pure, holy, just most adorable and generous example of how sweet and exemplary a "spiritual life" can be, when Gandhi's dream was to destroy the system of Castes that is the primary key for the survival of the Veda (to keep the Primordial Sounds alive) during ou most dangerous yuga... and eventhough Indian culture has the responsability to keep Ved alive, Ved is the most precious treasure for the whole of Humanity... Knowledge is not indian, german of brittish, it is simply universal... so you see, I am feeling concerned ) [me] There are many people of various faiths who feel their sacred texts are a gift to humanity…. [you and Stephanie] 12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"> There are many great Christian souls, who walk a dedicated and devout path, doing much good in their communities and in the world. I've walked both paths with tremendous devotion and I found that I was able to access God with a greater sense of peace and tranquility through Hinduism (and I still have so much growth). Don't try more to do good than to not do what you feel is bad... because good means "Right" and you do not know what is right before being spontaneously acting in harmony with cosmic laws (the wholeness of the natural laws found at work in the universe) and this is nothing less than cosmic Consciousness or Moksha... [me] Gee….I thought do unto others as you would have them do unto you was easier to do then what you stated above. How about ‘be like the lilies in the field…they toil not’ meaning don’t worry about it and just try to treat everyone as you would like them to treat you. I would not do what Mark did (not that I’m upset with him…I’m not)…which to me is a thoughtless insult including an entire group of people and putting them down without ever having known all of them because it is not in my heart to think that way. I would not want to be treated that way and included in a big lump “all brown people are savages” as I am brown, for example. I would not say that about any faith. [you] Don't be obsess to act only for the good of others because, whatever you do, you only do it for yourself... the difference is in the state of awareness, very little self, small self, growing experience of the Self or full establishment in the Self but the result is somehow the same... only the Self... from little ego to the "will of God" is only the growing experience of your own Self. [me] And have you interviewed every Christian out there who has ‘done good for others’ and come to discover that their efforts were only for themselves? Did you read their minds? I think not. I see….I act. Love is action IMHO. As one who has spent time in the trenches with those who are homeless, with Aids, drug addicts, starving in the streets with their children, mental health problems and you name it…it never occurred to me that I was doing this in the hope that I might attain moksha or to get a ‘thank you’ or for recompense in any way. I did it because I was one of those children when I was young (my mother and I were homeless for a time when I was young and I remember that) and my mother was one of those women who were abused by spouses and the system with mental health issues….so in my mind every single woman I helped achieve a stable life WAS my mother and this time I could make a difference. As far as moksha…I really don’t care and I really wouldn’t know ‘how close’ my soul might possibly be in achieving that state. Wouldn’t it be nice if we just saw each other as a family on earth as opposed to being so detached to think that the only reason why we might attempt to care for one another is so that we can get something in return that furthers our ambitions? People need to come down here and wake up. I am my brother’s keeper meaning if I see someone in pain….I care. If I can do something about it and put a smile on their face again or relief in their eyes….that’s a win for them and their family. [you] Don't try to strain of exacerbate the felling of Love. Love should be a simple, natural and spontaneous stream. [me] Have you ever been married? Had kids that are difficult? Love is something you work at….it’s dedication and sometimes you don’t feel like it. Sometimes you want to run down the street tearing your hair out because of one more obstacle within the family, one more night that someone makes demands upon you and you are just too tired to get up and read another story to your kid, help another kid with a term paper, get your spouse a pain pill because he hurts….however….because you love them…you do it. It’s all the little acts of loyalty and dedicated blood, sweat and tears that composes ‘love’. Sometimes spontaneous is the human animal self that wants to do something else other then one’s duty but your higher self doesn’t let you. Impulse is animal. Acting on one’s responsibilities requires thought. [you] Someone said that heaven is paved with good intentions. Doing good is "nice", (better satwa than tamas)... but what is important is to do "the Right Thing" (to act spontaneously in accord with all the laws of Nature). People can look gentle and good and will do nice acts of charity etc... this is "nice" indeed but what is important is really what the people "Are"... [me] Ummmmmmmm….the statement is ‘the road to HELL is paved with good intentions’. And who are we to truly be able to judge what is in another’s soul? Only God knows that. Each person’s individual lessons are personal to them. Don’t judge a book by its nice cover….or not so nice cover. This is my idea of what I feel is real in another: background:white;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in"> The Invitation by Oriah Mountain Dreamer It doesn't interest me what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for, and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart's longing. It doesn't interest me how old you are. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of being alive. It doesn't interest me what planets are squaring your moon. I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow, if you have been opened by life's betrayals or have become shriveled and closed from fear of further pain! I want to know if you can sit with pain, mine or your own, without moving to hide it or fade it, or fix it. I want to know if you can be with joy, mine or your own, if you can dance with wildness and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes without cautioning us to be careful, to be realistic, to remember the limitations of being human. It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithful and therefore trustworthy. I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day, and if you can source your own life from its presence. I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand on the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, "Yes!" It doesn't interest me to know where you live or how much money you have. I want to know if you can get up, after the night of grief and despair, weary and bruised to the bone, and do what needs to be done to feed the children. It doesn't interest me who you know or how you came to be here. I want to know if you will stand in the center of the fire with me and not shrink back. It doesn't interest me where or what or with whom you have studied. I want to know what sustains you, from the inside, when all else falls away. I want to know if you can be alone with yourself and if you truly like the company you keep in the empty moments. by 14.0pt">Oriah Mountain Dreamer Renee 12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"> ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ Groups Links margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list 1.0in"> font-family:Symbol;mso-fareast-font-family:Symbol;mso-bidi-font-family:Symbol">· To visit your group on the web, go to: / margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list 1.0in"> Symbol;mso-bidi-font-family:Symbol">· To from this group, send an email to: margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list 1.0in"> Symbol;mso-bidi-font-family:Symbol">· Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ Groups Links margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;tab-stops:list 1.0in"> font-family:Symbol;mso-fareast-font-family:Symbol;mso-bidi-font-family:Symbol">· To visit your group on the web, go to: / margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;tab-stops:list 1.0in"> Symbol;mso-bidi-font-family:Symbol">· To from this group, send an email to: margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;tab-stops:list 1.0in"> Symbol;mso-bidi-font-family:Symbol">· Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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