Guest guest Posted January 17, 2004 Report Share Posted January 17, 2004 All: The knowledge of Brahman and the desire to fell Brahman is the beginning of understanding of the "SELF". However, the statements below are very powerful especiall the one "The Isa Upanishad warns the students of Brahman not to take sides while approaching Brahman. Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter blinding darkness and those who worship the manifest only (sambhutim) enter into greater darkness. The right approach is to worship both and realize one through the other." This is a very very powerful statement. Read the statement below, and then the article below. A man knocked on the God's door. "Who's is there?" asked God from within. "It's me," said the man. "Go away then. There is no room for two," said God. The man departed and wandered in the arid desert until he realized his error. Returning to the door, he knocked once again. "Who's is there?" asked God as before. "You," answered the man. "Then come in," God replied. Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti. --Sanjay Aggarwal Difficulties in Understanding Brahman Any attempt to explain Brahman to the satisfaction of a mind that is driven by reason and familiar with the concretization thought is fraught with enormous difficulties, because that which is inexplicable cannot be explained by any amount of reasoning and logic. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the mind, beyond our intelligence and dreams. Then how can It be explained to the satisfaction of an intellectual and curious mind? The Rigvedic seers themselves had this problem in their mind when they called Him vaguely as "IT" or "This" or "That" The difficulty in understanding and knowing Brahman is well explained in the Kena Upanishad. Even gods are not free from their ignorance of Brahman (II.2.1). All that we can understand about Brahman is that we cannot understand It. Even after prolonged spiritual practice and meditation, one cannot even conclude whether one knows it or not. If a person thinks that he knows It, he does not know that he does not know. To whomsoever It is not known, It is known to him. But to whomsoever it is known, is not known to him. It is not understood by those who understand it and understood by those who do not understand it. It can be known only when one experiences directly at all levels of consciousness. (II. 2. 2-4). Trying to worship Brahman incorrectly and ignorantly without knowing the right approach can also result in great difficulties for a person who is on the path to salvation. The Isa Upanishad warns the students of Brahman not to take sides while approaching Brahman. Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter blinding darkness and those who worship the manifest only (sambhutim) enter into greater darkness. The right approach is to worship both and realize one through the other. Even an enlightened seer like Yagnavalkya had difficulties in explaining the nature of Brahman and his creation. While speaking to Sakalya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, he declares, " That Self is not this, not this. It is incomprehensible for it is not comprehended." When Gargi Vacaknavi asks him too many questions, in the same Upanishad he expresses his irritation saying, " Gargi, do not question too much. Otherwise your head may fall off. You are asking so many questions about a divinity about whom we are not expected to ask many questions." Else where in the same Upanishad he resorts to negative terminology to explain the inexplicable using such words as aksaram (imperishable), asthulam (not gross), ananu (not subtle), ahrasvam (nor short), adirgham (not long), achchayam (not shadow), atamah (not tamasic) and so on (Brihadaranyaka III.8.8). What is the original state of Brahman? Even the seers do not seem to have an answer. Uddalaka Aruni tells Svetaketu in Chandogya Upanishad, that in the beginning the Being was alone, one only, one without a second and in the next moment changes his statement stating that according to some in the beginning the non-Being was alone, without a second and that from that non-Being being was produced. (VI.2.1) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2004 Report Share Posted January 17, 2004 I'm am new to the group and I've also only recently converted to Hinduism. So forgive my rather naive questions regarding your post. Might you be willing to expound a bit further on your statements about Brahman and the "incorrect" way of worship: choosing either manifest or unmanifest? How is this statement related to, then, the daily, monthly, and special pujas done by Hindus toward the manifestations of Brahman? I am presuming that's what you mean by manifest and unmanifest? If it is the case that the Gods themselves donot understand Brahman, is that to suggest that there is some kind of duality that separates the Gods from Brahman? I'm working on a phd in rhetoric and philosophy so I'm willing to take up your reading suggestions. While I am unable to read sanskrit at this particular time, I'm sure there are some English texts that I can sink my teeth into. I have a translation of the Upanishads but it's been some time since I've visited them (this type of reading seems to fare much better when one can have a conversation about them). I appreciate any insight you can give. All the best, Stephaniesanjaytechnology <sanjaytechnology > wrote: All:The knowledge of Brahman and the desire to fell Brahman is the beginning of understanding of the "SELF". However, the statements below are very powerful especiall the one "The Isa Upanishad warns the students of Brahman not to take sides while approaching Brahman. Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter blinding darkness and those who worship the manifest only (sambhutim) enter into greater darkness. The right approach is to worship both and realize one through the other." This is a very very powerful statement. Read the statement below, and then the article below. A man knocked on the God's door. "Who's is there?" asked God from within. "It's me," said the man. "Go away then. There is no room for two," said God. The man departed and wandered in the arid desert until he realized his error. Returning to the door, he knocked once again. "Who's is there?" asked God as before. "You," answered the man. "Then come in," God replied. Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti. --Sanjay AggarwalDifficulties in Understanding Brahman Any attempt to explain Brahman to the satisfaction of a mind that is driven by reason and familiar with the concretization thought is fraught with enormous difficulties, because that which is inexplicable cannot be explained by any amount of reasoning and logic. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the mind, beyond our intelligence and dreams. Then how can It be explained to the satisfaction of an intellectual and curious mind? The Rigvedic seers themselves had this problem in their mind when they called Him vaguely as "IT" or "This" or "That"The difficulty in understanding and knowing Brahman is well explained in the Kena Upanishad. Even gods are not free from their ignorance of Brahman (II.2.1). All that we can understand about Brahman is that we cannot understand It. Even after prolonged spiritual practice and meditation, one cannot even conclude whether one knows it or not. If a person thinks that he knows It, he does not know that he does not know. To whomsoever It is not known, It is known to him. But to whomsoever it is known, is not known to him. It is not understood by those who understand it and understood by those who do not understand it. It can be known only when one experiences directly at all levels of consciousness. (II. 2. 2-4).Trying to worship Brahman incorrectly and ignorantly without knowing the right approach can also result in great difficulties for a person who is on the path to salvation. The Isa Upanishad warns the students of Brahman not to take sides while approaching Brahman. Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter blinding darkness and those who worship the manifest only (sambhutim) enter into greater darkness. The right approach is to worship both and realize one through the other.Even an enlightened seer like Yagnavalkya had difficulties in explaining the nature of Brahman and his creation. While speaking to Sakalya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, he declares, " That Self is not this, not this. It is incomprehensible for it is not comprehended." When Gargi Vacaknavi asks him too many questions, in the same Upanishad he expresses his irritation saying, " Gargi, do not question too much. Otherwise your head may fall off. You are asking so many questions about a divinity about whom we are not expected to ask many questions."Else where in the same Upanishad he resorts to negative terminology to explain the inexplicable using such words as aksaram (imperishable), asthulam (not gross), ananu (not subtle), ahrasvam (nor short), adirgham (not long), achchayam (not shadow), atamah (not tamasic) and so on (Brihadaranyaka III.8.8).What is the original state of Brahman? Even the seers do not seem to have an answer. Uddalaka Aruni tells Svetaketu in Chandogya Upanishad, that in the beginning the Being was alone, one only, one without a second and in the next moment changes his statement stating that according to some in the beginning the non-Being was alone, without a second and that from that non-Being being was produced. (VI.2.1)~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ To visit your group on the web, go to:/ To from this group, send an email to: Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2004 Report Share Posted January 17, 2004 Dear Sanjayji and all others, Bhagwat Geeta classifies a person at 4 different levels. These are brahman, shatriya, vaishya and shudra. At same time it is said that people are of 3 natures or Gunas. The three natures are satwik, Rajsik and tamsik. The chapter 8 of Bhagwat Geeta explains the Term "Brahman". The chapter opens with Arjunas question to krisna "What is Brahman? What is Adhyatma? What is Action? What is declared to be Adhibhuta? And what is AdhiDaiva said to be?" And Lord krisna answers these questions in the Chapter 8. stanza 3. " BRAHMAN is immperishable and the Adhibhutas constitute my perishable nature" What Bhagwat Geeta says is the aim of our life is to become desireless. And Being Brahman is Being desireless and the desireless never return to earth plane. Geeta chapter 8:stanza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eeta chapter 8 , stanza 15. " HAVING ATTAINED ME, THESE MAHATMAS (GREAT SOULS) DO NOT TAKE BIRTH AGAIN, WHICH IS HOUSE OF PAIN AND IS NON ITERNAL, THEY HAVING REACHED THE HIGHEST PERFECTION, MOKSHA" Stanza 16. WORLDS UPTO THE "WORLD OF BRAHMAJI", ARE SUBJECT TO REBIRTH, O ARJUNA, BUT WHO REACHES ME , O KAUNTEYA, HAS NO BIRTH. Stanza 21. "THAT WHICH IS CALLED THE UNMANIFEST AND THE IMPERISHABLE, THAT, THEY SAY IS THE HIGHEST GOAL. THEY WHO REACH IT NEVER AGAIN RETURN. THIS IS MY HIGHEST ABODE." Stanza 23 "NOW AT WHAT TIME (PATH) DEAPRTING, YOGINS GO, NEVER TO RETURN, AS ALSO TO RETURN, THAT TIME (PATH), I WILL TELL YOU, O CHIEF OF BHARTAS" Geeta chapter 8, STANZA 24 "FIRE, LIGHT, DAY TIME, THE BRIGHT FORTNIGHT, THE SIX MONTHS OF NORTHEN SOLSTICE; FOLOWING THIS PATH , men who know Brahman go to Brahman" According to Upnishdic traditions "He who lived a life of rituals (karmas) and worship (Upasna), will walk the path of the gods and entering through the sun will go beyond it to Brahmloka. There he enjoys the supersensous Bliss till the end of the "cycle", when along with the creator, he gets total liberation. " Geeta Chapter 8:25 " SMOKE , NIGHT TIME, THE DARK FORTNIGHT, ASLO SIX MONTHS OF THE SOUTHERN SOLDICE, ATTAINING BY THESE TO THE MOON, THE LUNAR LIGHT, THE YOGI RETURNS" Those who leave the world after spending there life time in doing good and performing rituals (karmas) without worship (Upasna), are those who go to the world of Ancestors (pitrus, world of heavens). On having exhausted their merits, they return into deserved embodiments ordered by individual Vasna (desire) balance. So these two stanzas make it clear that Brahman is essentially one which is desireless. Because only desireless spirit is liberated permanantly from the perishable (the elements) and so never return to earth plane. So any one BORN is born with DESIRES and there for is not a Brahmin. The way we attain these desires are the three Gunas (satwik, rajsik nad tamsik) and only satwik guna can lead us to become Brahmin. OM..... --- sanjaytechnology <sanjaytechnology wrote: > All: > > The knowledge of Brahman and the desire to fell > Brahman is the > beginning of understanding of the "SELF". However, > the statements > below are very powerful especiall the one "The Isa > Upanishad warns > the students of Brahman not to take sides while > approaching Brahman. > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter > blinding > darkness and those who worship the manifest only > (sambhutim) enter > into greater darkness. The right approach is to > worship both and > realize one through the other." This is a very very > powerful > statement. > > Read the statement below, and then the article > below. > > A man knocked on the God's door. "Who's is there?" > asked God from > within. "It's me," said the man. "Go away then. > There is no room for > two," said God. The man departed and wandered in the > arid desert > until he realized his error. Returning to the door, > he knocked once > again. "Who's is there?" asked God as before. "You," > answered the > man. "Then come in," God replied. > > > Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti. > > --Sanjay Aggarwal > > Difficulties in Understanding Brahman > Any attempt to explain Brahman to the satisfaction > of a mind that is > driven by reason and familiar with the > concretization thought is > fraught with enormous difficulties, because that > which is > inexplicable cannot be explained by any amount of > reasoning and > logic. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the > mind, beyond our > intelligence and dreams. Then how can It be > explained to the > satisfaction of an intellectual and curious mind? > The Rigvedic seers > themselves had this problem in their mind when they > called Him > vaguely as "IT" or "This" or "That" > > The difficulty in understanding and knowing Brahman > is well > explained in the Kena Upanishad. Even gods are not > free from their > ignorance of Brahman (II.2.1). All that we can > understand about > Brahman is that we cannot understand It. Even after > prolonged > spiritual practice and meditation, one cannot even > conclude whether > one knows it or not. If a person thinks that he > knows It, he does > not know that he does not know. To whomsoever It is > not known, It is > known to him. But to whomsoever it is known, is not > known to him. It > is not understood by those who understand it and > understood by those > who do not understand it. It can be known only when > one experiences > directly at all levels of consciousness. (II. 2. > 2-4). > > Trying to worship Brahman incorrectly and ignorantly > without knowing > the right approach can also result in great > difficulties for a > person who is on the path to salvation. The Isa > Upanishad warns the > students of Brahman not to take sides while > approaching Brahman. > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter > blinding > darkness and those who worship the manifest only > (sambhutim) enter > into greater darkness. The right approach is to > worship both and > realize one through the other. > > Even an enlightened seer like Yagnavalkya had > difficulties in > explaining the nature of Brahman and his creation. > While speaking to > Sakalya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, he declares, " > That Self is not > this, not this. It is incomprehensible for it is not > comprehended." > When Gargi Vacaknavi asks him too many questions, in > the same > Upanishad he expresses his irritation saying, " > Gargi, do not > question too much. Otherwise your head may fall off. > You are asking > so many questions about a divinity about whom we are > not expected to > ask many questions." > > Else where in the same Upanishad he resorts to > negative terminology > to explain the inexplicable using such words as > aksaram > (imperishable), asthulam (not gross), ananu (not > subtle), ahrasvam > (nor short), adirgham (not long), achchayam (not > shadow), atamah > (not tamasic) and so on (Brihadaranyaka III.8.8). > > What is the original state of Brahman? Even the > seers do not seem to > have an answer. Uddalaka Aruni tells Svetaketu in > Chandogya > Upanishad, that in the beginning the Being was > alone, one only, one > without a second and in the next moment changes his > statement > stating that according to some in the beginning the > non-Being was > alone, without a second and that from that non-Being > being was > produced. (VI.2.1) > > > > Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2004 Report Share Posted January 17, 2004 --- Stephanie Marie <chotoprajapati wrote: > Dear Sanjay: > > I'm am new to the group and I've also only recently > converted to Hinduism. So forgive my rather naive > questions regarding your post. Might you be willing > to expound a bit further on your statements about > Brahman and the "incorrect" way of worship: > choosing either manifest or unmanifest? How is this > statement related to, then, the daily, monthly, and > special pujas done by Hindus toward the > manifestations of Brahman? I am presuming that's > what you mean by manifest and unmanifest? > > If it is the case that the Gods themselves donot > understand Brahman, is that to suggest that there is > some kind of duality that separates the Gods from > Brahman? Dear Stephanie, Yes, Gods and Brahman are different things. HInduism believes that there are 330 million gods. However there can be only one Brahman. reagrds chandra ===== ******************************************************************** Chandrashekhar Joglekar Predoc Fellow, Eaton Group Max Planck Institute of Molecular cell Biology & Genetics Pfotenhauerstr. 108, Dresden, Germany Phone: +49/351/2102745 ******************************************************************** Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2004 Report Share Posted January 17, 2004 I'm learning a form hinduism through the Bengali tradition. I do morning pujas, Shiva on Monday, Lokenath in Tuesday, Loki on Thursday, Satynarayan on Full Moons, and of course the major celebrations for Kali, Loki, Ma Durga, Shiva, Krishna, etc. My hands are full just trying to master these rituals. The dilemma I fear is that I sometimes find myself focusing more on the mundane elements of life rather than enlightenment. But according the four paths of life, it seems I'm walking the right path. Ultimately, my question is... (sorry for the rambling) what are the intersections between the larger quests for enlightenment with the day to day routines of pujas? More importantly, I would also like to know what some of your thoughts (meaning anyone who would like to chime in) on the role of women within this space? There sometimes appears to be a contradiction. If enlightenment means moving through and beyond these more ritualistic modes but the woman's role within this tradition is to maintain them, then how is she set free? Especially when so many of the rituals are based on the importance of marriage? Thank you all so much for your indepth and poignant responses. This is a tremendous help. Best, Stephanie Chandrashekhar Joglekar <cjoglekar2002 > wrote: Dear Sanjayji and all others,Bhagwat Geeta classifies a person at 4 differentlevels. These are brahman, shatriya, vaishya andshudra. At same time it is said that people are of 3 naturesor Gunas. The three natures are satwik, Rajsik andtamsik. The chapter 8 of Bhagwat Geeta explains theTerm "Brahman". The chapter opens with Arjunasquestion to krisna "What is Brahman? What is Adhyatma?What is Action? What is declared to be Adhibhuta? Andwhat is AdhiDaiva said to be?" And Lord krisna answers these questions in the Chapter8.stanza 3. " BRAHMAN is immperishable and the Adhibhutasconstitute my perishable nature"What Bhagwat Geeta says is the aim of our life is tobecome desireless. And Being Brahman is Beingdesireless and the desireless never return to earthplane.Geeta chapter 8:stanza 11, 12 AND 13 LORD KRISNHA SAYS"THAT WHICH IS DEECLARED IMPERISHABLE BY THE VEDAKNOWERS; THAT INTO WHICH THE SELF CONTROLLED ANDDESIRE-FREED ENTER; THAT DESIRING WHICH BRAHMCHARYA ISPRACTISED- THAT GOAL I WILL DECLARE TO THEE IN BRIEF""HVAING CLOSED ALL THE GATES, HAVING CONFINED THE MINDIN THE HEART, HAVING FIXED THE LIFE-BREATH IN THE"HEAD" ENGAGED IN THE PRACTICE OF CONCENTRATION,UTTERING THE ONY SYLLABLED 'OM- (THE SYMBOL OF) THEBRAHMAN- AND REMEMBERING ME, HE WHO DEPARTS, LEAVINGTHE BODY, ATTAINS THE SUPREME GOAL"Geeta chapter 8 , stanza 15." HAVING ATTAINED ME, THESE MAHATMAS (GREAT SOULS) DONOT TAKE BIRTH AGAIN, WHICH IS HOUSE OF PAIN AND ISNON ITERNAL, THEY HAVING REACHED THE HIGHESTPERFECTION, MOKSHA"Stanza 16.WORLDS UPTO THE "WORLD OF BRAHMAJI", ARE SUBJECT TOREBIRTH, O ARJUNA, BUT WHO REACHES ME , O KAUNTEYA,HAS NO BIRTH.Stanza 21."THAT WHICH IS CALLED THE UNMANIFEST AND THEIMPERISHABLE, THAT, THEY SAY IS THE HIGHEST GOAL. THEYWHO REACH IT NEVER AGAIN RETURN. THIS IS MY HIGHESTABODE."Stanza 23"NOW AT WHAT TIME (PATH) DEAPRTING, YOGINS GO, NEVERTO RETURN, AS ALSO TO RETURN, THAT TIME (PATH), I WILLTELL YOU, O CHIEF OF BHARTAS"Geeta chapter 8, STANZA 24 "FIRE, LIGHT, DAY TIME, THE BRIGHT FORTNIGHT, THE SIXMONTHS OF NORTHEN SOLSTICE; FOLOWING THIS PATH , menwho know Brahman go to Brahman" According to Upnishdic traditions "He who lived a life of rituals (karmas) and worship(Upasna), will walk the path of the gods and enteringthrough the sun will go beyond it to Brahmloka. Therehe enjoys the supersensous Bliss till the end of the"cycle", when along with the creator, he gets totalliberation. "Geeta Chapter 8:25" SMOKE , NIGHT TIME, THE DARK FORTNIGHT, ASLO SIXMONTHS OF THE SOUTHERN SOLDICE, ATTAINING BY THESE TOTHE MOON, THE LUNAR LIGHT, THE YOGI RETURNS"Those who leave the world after spending there lifetime in doing good and performing rituals (karmas)without worship (Upasna), are those who go to theworld of Ancestors (pitrus, world of heavens). Onhaving exhausted their merits, they return intodeserved embodiments ordered by individual Vasna(desire) balance.So these two stanzas make it clear that Brahman isessentially one which is desireless. Because onlydesireless spirit is liberated permanantly from theperishable (the elements) and so never return to earthplane. So any one BORN is born with DESIRES and there for isnot a Brahmin. The way we attain these desires are thethree Gunas (satwik, rajsik nad tamsik) and onlysatwik guna can lead us to become Brahmin.OM.....--- sanjaytechnology <sanjaytechnology >wrote:> All:> > The knowledge of Brahman and the desire to fell> Brahman is the > beginning of understanding of the "SELF". However,> the statements > below are very powerful especiall the one "The Isa> Upanishad warns > the students of Brahman not to take sides while> approaching Brahman. > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter> blinding > darkness and those who worship the manifest only> (sambhutim) enter > into greater darkness. The right approach is to> worship both and > realize one through the other." This is a very very> powerful > statement. > > Read the statement below, and then the article> below. > > A man knocked on the God's door. "Who's is there?"> asked God from > within. "It's me," said the man. "Go away then.> There is no room for > two," said God. The man departed and wandered in the> arid desert > until he realized his error. Returning to the door,> he knocked once > again. "Who's is there?" asked God as before. "You,"> answered the > man. "Then come in," God replied. > > > Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti. > > --Sanjay Aggarwal> > Difficulties in Understanding Brahman > Any attempt to explain Brahman to the satisfaction> of a mind that is > driven by reason and familiar with the> concretization thought is > fraught with enormous difficulties, because that> which is > inexplicable cannot be explained by any amount of> reasoning and > logic. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the> mind, beyond our > intelligence and dreams. Then how can It be> explained to the > satisfaction of an intellectual and curious mind?> The Rigvedic seers > themselves had this problem in their mind when they> called Him > vaguely as "IT" or "This" or "That"> > The difficulty in understanding and knowing Brahman> is well > explained in the Kena Upanishad. Even gods are not> free from their > ignorance of Brahman (II.2.1). All that we can> understand about > Brahman is that we cannot understand It. Even after> prolonged > spiritual practice and meditation, one cannot even> conclude whether > one knows it or not. If a person thinks that he> knows It, he does > not know that he does not know. To whomsoever It is> not known, It is > known to him. But to whomsoever it is known, is not> known to him. It > is not understood by those who understand it and> understood by those > who do not understand it. It can be known only when> one experiences > directly at all levels of consciousness. (II. 2.> 2-4).> > Trying to worship Brahman incorrectly and ignorantly> without knowing > the right approach can also result in great> difficulties for a > person who is on the path to salvation. The Isa> Upanishad warns the > students of Brahman not to take sides while> approaching Brahman. > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter> blinding > darkness and those who worship the manifest only> (sambhutim) enter > into greater darkness. The right approach is to> worship both and > realize one through the other.> > Even an enlightened seer like Yagnavalkya had> difficulties in > explaining the nature of Brahman and his creation.> While speaking to > Sakalya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, he declares, "> That Self is not > this, not this. It is incomprehensible for it is not> comprehended." > When Gargi Vacaknavi asks him too many questions, in> the same > Upanishad he expresses his irritation saying, "> Gargi, do not > question too much. Otherwise your head may fall off.> You are asking > so many questions about a divinity about whom we are> not expected to > ask many questions."> > Else where in the same Upanishad he resorts to> negative terminology > to explain the inexplicable using such words as> aksaram > (imperishable), asthulam (not gross), ananu (not> subtle), ahrasvam > (nor short), adirgham (not long), achchayam (not> shadow), atamah > (not tamasic) and so on (Brihadaranyaka III.8.8).> > What is the original state of Brahman? Even the> seers do not seem to > have an answer. Uddalaka Aruni tells Svetaketu in> Chandogya > Upanishad, that in the beginning the Being was> alone, one only, one > without a second and in the next moment changes his> statement > stating that according to some in the beginning the> non-Being was > alone, without a second and that from that non-Being> being was > produced. (VI.2.1)> > > > Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakeshttp://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ To visit your group on the web, go to:/ To from this group, send an email to: Your use of is subject to the "WHEN LIFE HANDS YOU LEMONS, DEMAND A CORONA TO GO WITH IT." "I'M NOT CRAZY, JUST INTELLECTUALLY INDEPENDENT." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Dear Sanjay Prabhu and members, I found your post on Brahman very inspiring. Although I have a very strong interest in Jyotish (study and follow JR Forum every day), I also somehow naturally gravitate to topics on the Absolute. Sanjay Prabhu, sorry for sounding so condescending, but I would like to stress the wonderful manner and approach of your explanation on the subject. You are always very cautious in referring to the source of your statements and affirmation. Sastric support is vital when referring to knowledge of the Absolute Truth. We all know that, as jivas and limited beings, our senses and intelligence alone is incapable of grasping or understanding the Absolute. I have read many books on Jyotish, and most authors claim the importance of studying the subject with the guidance of a mentor (guru). It must be transmitted from a jyotishi who has received the needed spark from his own mentor, and pass it on to the next disciple. The same parampara (disciplic succession) principle applies to topics on the Absolute. Besides the support of the Sastras, we need a Guru, and eventually sadhus from whom to seek inspiration and enthuse us on the path. This way, we can gradually come to understand the Absolute Truth even while conditioned by our limited senses, mind and intelligence. Yasya deve para bhaktir Yatha deve tatha gurau Tasyaite kathita hy arthah Prakasante mahatmanah (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23) "God is revealed to those who have fix devotion to the Supreme Lord and is conducted by a spiritual master, to whom he has the same firm devotion and faith." P.S. - Please forgive me for the poor translation. The original text is not in English. Roy Kamiki - "sanjaytechnology" <sanjaytechnology <> Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:06 PM Difficulties in Understanding Brahman. > All: > > The knowledge of Brahman and the desire to fell Brahman is the > beginning of understanding of the "SELF". However, the statements > below are very powerful especiall the one "The Isa Upanishad warns > the students of Brahman not to take sides while approaching Brahman. > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter blinding > darkness and those who worship the manifest only (sambhutim) enter > into greater darkness. The right approach is to worship both and > realize one through the other." This is a very very powerful > statement. > > Read the statement below, and then the article below. > > A man knocked on the God's door. "Who's is there?" asked God from > within. "It's me," said the man. "Go away then. There is no room for > two," said God. The man departed and wandered in the arid desert > until he realized his error. Returning to the door, he knocked once > again. "Who's is there?" asked God as before. "You," answered the > man. "Then come in," God replied. > > > Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti. > > --Sanjay Aggarwal > > Difficulties in Understanding Brahman > Any attempt to explain Brahman to the satisfaction of a mind that is > driven by reason and familiar with the concretization thought is > fraught with enormous difficulties, because that which is > inexplicable cannot be explained by any amount of reasoning and > logic. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the mind, beyond our > intelligence and dreams. Then how can It be explained to the > satisfaction of an intellectual and curious mind? The Rigvedic seers > themselves had this problem in their mind when they called Him > vaguely as "IT" or "This" or "That" > > The difficulty in understanding and knowing Brahman is well > explained in the Kena Upanishad. Even gods are not free from their > ignorance of Brahman (II.2.1). All that we can understand about > Brahman is that we cannot understand It. Even after prolonged > spiritual practice and meditation, one cannot even conclude whether > one knows it or not. If a person thinks that he knows It, he does > not know that he does not know. To whomsoever It is not known, It is > known to him. But to whomsoever it is known, is not known to him. It > is not understood by those who understand it and understood by those > who do not understand it. It can be known only when one experiences > directly at all levels of consciousness. (II. 2. 2-4). > > Trying to worship Brahman incorrectly and ignorantly without knowing > the right approach can also result in great difficulties for a > person who is on the path to salvation. The Isa Upanishad warns the > students of Brahman not to take sides while approaching Brahman. > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) enter blinding > darkness and those who worship the manifest only (sambhutim) enter > into greater darkness. The right approach is to worship both and > realize one through the other. > > Even an enlightened seer like Yagnavalkya had difficulties in > explaining the nature of Brahman and his creation. While speaking to > Sakalya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, he declares, " That Self is not > this, not this. It is incomprehensible for it is not comprehended." > When Gargi Vacaknavi asks him too many questions, in the same > Upanishad he expresses his irritation saying, " Gargi, do not > question too much. Otherwise your head may fall off. You are asking > so many questions about a divinity about whom we are not expected to > ask many questions." > > Else where in the same Upanishad he resorts to negative terminology > to explain the inexplicable using such words as aksaram > (imperishable), asthulam (not gross), ananu (not subtle), ahrasvam > (nor short), adirgham (not long), achchayam (not shadow), atamah > (not tamasic) and so on (Brihadaranyaka III.8.8). > > What is the original state of Brahman? Even the seers do not seem to > have an answer. Uddalaka Aruni tells Svetaketu in Chandogya > Upanishad, that in the beginning the Being was alone, one only, one > without a second and in the next moment changes his statement > stating that according to some in the beginning the non-Being was > alone, without a second and that from that non-Being being was > produced. (VI.2.1) > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > > Links > > > / > > > > > Your > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Hello Roy Ramiki, Good words indeed. about Guru and his importance. !! Guru is a guide...... Guru is a mile stone......Not the destination. On this road to knowledge, we need to walk on our own. Gravitating always around a Guru makes you a satellite . When I see people hero worshipping Gurus(So called) I feel pity. Such Gurus increase their importance by increasing their chelas. How many selfless Gurus you see these days? I know a very very few. Sorry to differ a bit. Rgds HT --- Roy Kamiki <nutrideias wrote: > Dear Sanjay Prabhu and members, > > I found your post on Brahman very inspiring. > Although I have a very strong > interest in Jyotish (study and follow JR Forum every > day), I also somehow > naturally gravitate to topics on the Absolute. > > Sanjay Prabhu, sorry for sounding so condescending, > but I would like to > stress the wonderful manner and approach of your > explanation on the subject. > You are always very cautious in referring to the > source of your statements > and affirmation. Sastric support is vital when > referring to knowledge of the > Absolute Truth. We all know that, as jivas and > limited beings, our senses > and intelligence alone is incapable of grasping or > understanding the > Absolute. > > I have read many books on Jyotish, and most authors > claim the importance of > studying the subject with the guidance of a mentor > (guru). It must be > transmitted from a jyotishi who has received the > needed spark from his own > mentor, and pass it on to the next disciple. The > same parampara (disciplic > succession) principle applies to topics on the > Absolute. Besides the support > of the Sastras, we need a Guru, and eventually > sadhus from whom to seek > inspiration and enthuse us on the path. > > This way, we can gradually come to understand the > Absolute Truth even while > conditioned by our limited senses, mind and > intelligence. > > Yasya deve para bhaktir > Yatha deve tatha gurau > Tasyaite kathita hy arthah > Prakasante mahatmanah > > (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23) > > "God is revealed to those who have fix devotion to > the Supreme Lord and is > conducted by a spiritual master, to whom he has the > same firm devotion and > faith." > > P.S. - Please forgive me for the poor translation. > The original text is not > in English. > > Roy Kamiki > > > > > - > "sanjaytechnology" > <sanjaytechnology > <> > Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:06 PM > Difficulties in Understanding Brahman. > > > > All: > > > > The knowledge of Brahman and the desire to fell > Brahman is the > > beginning of understanding of the "SELF". However, > the statements > > below are very powerful especiall the one "The Isa > Upanishad warns > > the students of Brahman not to take sides while > approaching Brahman. > > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) > enter blinding > > darkness and those who worship the manifest only > (sambhutim) enter > > into greater darkness. The right approach is to > worship both and > > realize one through the other." This is a very > very powerful > > statement. > > > > Read the statement below, and then the article > below. > > > > A man knocked on the God's door. "Who's is there?" > asked God from > > within. "It's me," said the man. "Go away then. > There is no room for > > two," said God. The man departed and wandered in > the arid desert > > until he realized his error. Returning to the > door, he knocked once > > again. "Who's is there?" asked God as before. > "You," answered the > > man. "Then come in," God replied. > > > > > > Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti. > > > > --Sanjay Aggarwal > > > > Difficulties in Understanding Brahman > > Any attempt to explain Brahman to the satisfaction > of a mind that is > > driven by reason and familiar with the > concretization thought is > > fraught with enormous difficulties, because that > which is > > inexplicable cannot be explained by any amount of > reasoning and > > logic. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the > mind, beyond our > > intelligence and dreams. Then how can It be > explained to the > > satisfaction of an intellectual and curious mind? > The Rigvedic seers > > themselves had this problem in their mind when > they called Him > > vaguely as "IT" or "This" or "That" > > > > The difficulty in understanding and knowing > Brahman is well > > explained in the Kena Upanishad. Even gods are not > free from their > > ignorance of Brahman (II.2.1). All that we can > understand about > > Brahman is that we cannot understand It. Even > after prolonged > > spiritual practice and meditation, one cannot even > conclude whether > > one knows it or not. If a person thinks that he > knows It, he does > > not know that he does not know. To whomsoever It > is not known, It is > > known to him. But to whomsoever it is known, is > not known to him. It > > is not understood by those who understand it and > understood by those > > who do not understand it. It can be known only > when one experiences > > directly at all levels of consciousness. (II. 2. > 2-4). > > > > Trying to worship Brahman incorrectly and > ignorantly without knowing > > the right approach can also result in great > difficulties for a > > person who is on the path to salvation. The Isa > Upanishad warns the > > students of Brahman not to take sides while > approaching Brahman. > > Those who worship the unmanifest (asambhutim) > enter blinding > > darkness and those who worship the manifest only > (sambhutim) enter > > into greater darkness. The right approach is to > worship both and > > realize one through the other. > > > > Even an enlightened seer like Yagnavalkya had > difficulties in > > explaining the nature of Brahman and his creation. > While speaking to > > Sakalya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, he declares, > " That Self is not > > this, not this. It is incomprehensible for it is > not comprehended." > > When Gargi Vacaknavi asks him too many questions, > in the same > > Upanishad he expresses his irritation saying, " > Gargi, do not > > question too much. Otherwise your head may fall > off. You are asking > > so many questions about a divinity about whom we > are not expected to > > ask many questions." > > > > Else where in the same Upanishad he resorts to > negative terminology > > to explain the inexplicable using such words as > aksaram > > (imperishable), asthulam (not gross), ananu (not > subtle), ahrasvam > > (nor short), adirgham (not long), achchayam (not > shadow), atamah > > (not tamasic) and so on (Brihadaranyaka III.8.8). > > > > What is the original state of Brahman? Even the > seers do not seem to > > have an answer. Uddalaka Aruni tells Svetaketu in > Chandogya > === message truncated === Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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