Factors for Suicide?

[Guest guest]

Hi Patrice,

 

Nice to see you here. I too, have been away from list with other matters for

much of last month. So do forgive me for not getting back in touch with your

email some weeks back on group. I would like to answer that and pursue your line

of thinking regarding my current Dasa. Soon. I am still trying to balance and

find the energy with a lot of full plates right now.

 

This chart that you have presented below is very interesting, indeed.

 

Something that I have wanted to ask you now for a while, is the significator

book that you often refer to for reference. Can you share its title?

 

Mars might not be an indicator for suicide but I am rather incline to suggest

that because of its desire foundation and its directness that often can be

aggressive when not being assertive with its meaning in blood, injury and

accidents, is that it could be the herring with emotional transit of Moon as a

trigger to set the impulsivity off to take ones own life. I think too, Saturn

with its tendency to be melancholic can play a role with Mars - especially on a

bad day.

 

I had a look at the transits for may 17th 1939. Oh, baby! Yikes.

 

Without getting into the lord rules - Nakshatras, I can see clearly that 5

planets are transiting in 4th hse Aries/Mars for the date. Me Ke and Mo are in

conjuction. Ve and Sa are in conjuction. And, Mars who is in lst hse

Capricorn/Sa aspects Aries/Mars

 

There are a lot of stress factors on the day of suicide with just these

planets positions, not to mention the daughters natal chart in regard to her

father.

 

Also of note. Rahu is in 10th hse, Libra/Ve for the date.

 

A lot of despondency of self. Passionate Ve gone awry. Lack of World

affirmation.

Mars impulsive hopelessness. Ketu - a feeling of no hope Alcohol or drugs

involved to alter the mind (Mer) of any sense. Especially, with Ju in Pisces in

3rd hse of thinking and communicating, 12th from Aries/Mars.

 

Dasa for the Day Sa Sa Sa

 

From the daughters birth chart - Dasa, for the day, Ra Sa Ve Sa

 

Sa in her sixth hse Scorpio/Ma, Aries/Ma eleventh (hopes and wishes)

vanquished with her fathers demise. Mar transiting her 8th hse (lost of male

love one) for females.

 

I am guessing self inflicted gunshot wound.

 

Something with a lot of blood - knife maybe

 

Tragic.

 

As always,

 

Uttara

 

Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote:

Dear List,

 

 

 

Something I need to correct below is Moon is in Moolatrikona in Rashi chart.

I need to take more note of the degrees when viewing exaltation - Her Moon

being at 26 degrees puts it in moolatrikona verses exaltation.

 

 

 

The other thing to mention is again transiting exalted Mars - in 8H, 12H

from 9H - father's 12H. In this case Mars being such an important player in

this suicide. Suicide itself doesn't list Mars in my significator book.

 

 

 

Kindest regards,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Patrice Curry

Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:13 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

* Hello Dear List,

 

 

 

Sorry to be away again for so long - and you all have so many interesting

posts and topics.

 

 

 

Want to share the chart of someone whose father committed suicide. It's an

interesting chart to view in that light. This happened at 2 weeks before her

12th birthday and obviously has been huge in her life.

 

 

 

Birth data: May 31, 1927, 6:50 AM, San Pedro, CA, USA

 

 

 

I just took a look at the transits on May 17, 1939, and interestingly there

are 5 planets in her 11H, 3rd house from 9H of father. and in Aries, with

Mars Neechabhanga in her natal chart. Mars itself in transit is in her 8H,

and owning this 11H - 3rd for father, is now exatlted in transit in 8H, and

in Sun's star, Sun another signifier for father is in transit 12H.

 

 

 

Also Saturn, who is her natal lord of 9H, and is debilitated in Navamsa, and

as well located in Nakshatra star of this debilitated Mars, is now in

transit in debility and conjoined all these planets on this fateful day -

 

 

 

Transiting Mars and Saturn are also in a close mutual aspect of one another

on this day. Exalted Mars from 8H aspecting own rashi Aries, and Rahu being

the only planets aspecting this rashi with transiting 5 conjoined planets,

and Aries know for iniciative as well as the third house being known for

this.

 

 

 

Saturn not only debilitated but also in Ashwini in Gandanta, however such a

slow moving planet and at 2:32 degrees, but still something I like to note.

Something else I see here, and have been trying to take note of - but I

don't know how more knowledgeable astrologers might view this - is that her

9H in cuspal chart shows cusp at less than 1 degree, at only 23 minutes.

 

 

 

Although Uranus is not used in Jyotish, I have noted that it too is in

transit in Aries, and if included would be 6 planets conjoined there, and

Uranus is given in my significator book for suicide as well.

 

 

 

On this day, native would have been in Saturn/Rahu/Venus/Saturn. This places

her progressed dasa Moon in Ardra along with her ascendant - Ardra's symbol

is a tear..

 

 

 

Venus owns 12H and although has exalted Moon in Taurus, Venus is weak by

being in final degree of her ascendant, as well as having no planets in

Rashi chart in Venus star. Moon owning 2H of family. This is doubly true in

her case showing loss of family as Taurus is in 12H of loss and also

represents family. Following this terrible day, she was sent off to live

with her sister and husband, sister only 10 years her senior. Interestingly,

she has also told me her sister was never interested in food much and there

was often not much to eat, (again Taurus and 2H Moon).

 

 

 

Venus and Ketu are in nakshatra exchange on this day with Venus closely

conjoined this Saturn. Rahu in own star in 5H. (In natal chart Ketu in own

star and only planet in Ketu's star.) Also on this day all planets final

depositor is Mars, other than Jupiter who is in Pisces.

 

 

 

I won't say here how he committed suicide if anyone would like to guess.

It's a good example for checking this given all I've mentioned above and

once you check this chart.

 

 

 

All my best wishes,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology chart Vedic astrology Personal reading

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web.

 

jyotish-vidya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is

that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that

most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we

unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated

from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return

To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

p.s. This daughter loved her father very much. Mo ruling her 2nd hse with

Exalted mars in it. Family and and security very important Jupiter placed in

her 10th hse of Pisces. Really had a close connection with her Dad.

 

I am getting a sense too that she either was witness to his demise or was a

part of it. Purposeful car accident maybe. Something is screaming at me - from

her part. Traumatic ending.

 

As Always,

 

Uttara

 

Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote:

Hi Patrice,

 

Nice to see you here. I too, have been away from list with other matters for

much of last month. So do forgive me for not getting back in touch with your

email some weeks back on group. I would like to answer that and pursue your line

of thinking regarding my current Dasa. Soon. I am still trying to balance and

find the energy with a lot of full plates right now.

 

This chart that you have presented below is very interesting, indeed.

 

Something that I have wanted to ask you now for a while, is the significator

book that you often refer to for reference. Can you share its title?

 

Mars might not be an indicator for suicide but I am rather incline to suggest

that because of its desire foundation and its directness that often can be

aggressive when not being assertive with its meaning in blood, injury and

accidents, is that it could be the herring with emotional transit of Moon as a

trigger to set the impulsivity off to take ones own life. I think too, Saturn

with its tendency to be melancholic can play a role with Mars - especially on a

bad day.

 

I had a look at the transits for may 17th 1939. Oh, baby! Yikes.

 

Without getting into the lord rules - Nakshatras, I can see clearly that 5

planets are transiting in 4th hse Aries/Mars for the date. Me Ke and Mo are in

conjuction. Ve and Sa are in conjuction. And, Mars who is in lst hse

Capricorn/Sa aspects Aries/Mars

 

There are a lot of stress factors on the day of suicide with just these

planets positions, not to mention the daughters natal chart in regard to her

father.

 

Also of note. Rahu is in 10th hse, Libra/Ve for the date.

 

A lot of despondency of self. Passionate Ve gone awry. Lack of World

affirmation.

Mars impulsive hopelessness. Ketu - a feeling of no hope Alcohol or drugs

involved to alter the mind (Mer) of any sense. Especially, with Ju in Pisces in

3rd hse of thinking and communicating, 12th from Aries/Mars.

 

Dasa for the Day Sa Sa Sa

 

From the daughters birth chart - Dasa, for the day, Ra Sa Ve Sa

 

Sa in her sixth hse Scorpio/Ma, Aries/Ma eleventh (hopes and wishes)

vanquished with her fathers demise. Mar transiting her 8th hse (lost of male

love one) for females.

 

I am guessing self inflicted gunshot wound.

 

Something with a lot of blood - knife maybe

 

Tragic.

 

As always,

 

Uttara

 

Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote:

Dear List,

 

 

 

Something I need to correct below is Moon is in Moolatrikona in Rashi chart.

I need to take more note of the degrees when viewing exaltation - Her Moon

being at 26 degrees puts it in moolatrikona verses exaltation.

 

 

 

The other thing to mention is again transiting exalted Mars - in 8H, 12H

from 9H - father's 12H. In this case Mars being such an important player in

this suicide. Suicide itself doesn't list Mars in my significator book.

 

 

 

Kindest regards,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Patrice Curry

Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:13 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

* Hello Dear List,

 

 

 

Sorry to be away again for so long - and you all have so many interesting

posts and topics.

 

 

 

Want to share the chart of someone whose father committed suicide. It's an

interesting chart to view in that light. This happened at 2 weeks before her

12th birthday and obviously has been huge in her life.

 

 

 

Birth data: May 31, 1927, 6:50 AM, San Pedro, CA, USA

 

 

 

I just took a look at the transits on May 17, 1939, and interestingly there

are 5 planets in her 11H, 3rd house from 9H of father. and in Aries, with

Mars Neechabhanga in her natal chart. Mars itself in transit is in her 8H,

and owning this 11H - 3rd for father, is now exatlted in transit in 8H, and

in Sun's star, Sun another signifier for father is in transit 12H.

 

 

 

Also Saturn, who is her natal lord of 9H, and is debilitated in Navamsa, and

as well located in Nakshatra star of this debilitated Mars, is now in

transit in debility and conjoined all these planets on this fateful day -

 

 

 

Transiting Mars and Saturn are also in a close mutual aspect of one another

on this day. Exalted Mars from 8H aspecting own rashi Aries, and Rahu being

the only planets aspecting this rashi with transiting 5 conjoined planets,

and Aries know for iniciative as well as the third house being known for

this.

 

 

 

Saturn not only debilitated but also in Ashwini in Gandanta, however such a

slow moving planet and at 2:32 degrees, but still something I like to note.

Something else I see here, and have been trying to take note of - but I

don't know how more knowledgeable astrologers might view this - is that her

9H in cuspal chart shows cusp at less than 1 degree, at only 23 minutes.

 

 

 

Although Uranus is not used in Jyotish, I have noted that it too is in

transit in Aries, and if included would be 6 planets conjoined there, and

Uranus is given in my significator book for suicide as well.

 

 

 

On this day, native would have been in Saturn/Rahu/Venus/Saturn. This places

her progressed dasa Moon in Ardra along with her ascendant - Ardra's symbol

is a tear..

 

 

 

Venus owns 12H and although has exalted Moon in Taurus, Venus is weak by

being in final degree of her ascendant, as well as having no planets in

Rashi chart in Venus star. Moon owning 2H of family. This is doubly true in

her case showing loss of family as Taurus is in 12H of loss and also

represents family. Following this terrible day, she was sent off to live

with her sister and husband, sister only 10 years her senior. Interestingly,

she has also told me her sister was never interested in food much and there

was often not much to eat, (again Taurus and 2H Moon).

 

 

 

Venus and Ketu are in nakshatra exchange on this day with Venus closely

conjoined this Saturn. Rahu in own star in 5H. (In natal chart Ketu in own

star and only planet in Ketu's star.) Also on this day all planets final

depositor is Mars, other than Jupiter who is in Pisces.

 

 

 

I won't say here how he committed suicide if anyone would like to guess.

It's a good example for checking this given all I've mentioned above and

once you check this chart.

 

 

 

All my best wishes,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology chart Vedic astrology Personal reading

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web.

 

jyotish-vidya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is

that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that

most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we

unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated

from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return

To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology chart Vedic astrology Personal reading

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web.

 

jyotish-vidya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is

that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that

most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we

unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated

from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return

To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Dear Uttara,

 

 

 

Yes, I saw your earlier post regarding your mother. I'm happy that she is

doing better right now and send my best wishes as always.

 

 

 

You are right on spot here with respect to this suicide - it was a gun.

Thanks so much for your thoughts on this chart and your time on it Uttara as

I know you are very busy at this time.

 

 

 

This chart is actually my mother's chart and he my grandfather. I spoke to

her today and interestingly she brought this up so I was able to ask a few

questions again. This happened on May 16, 1939, versus the 17th, which makes

this even a more dramatic chart on the day of his death. I had thought it

could be so when looking at the 17th's chart, but wondered if it was just my

own thoughts or prejudices creating the earlier Moon which I like to be very

careful of. Interestingly though indeed it was the 16th.

 

 

 

Parashara Light is showing no DST on the transit chart, but one on the birth

chart so I plan to call them tomorrow about this as we've seen this earlier

on list recently.

 

 

 

For my mother this has given her great worries and anxieties (6H) for her

life and much of the other things you mention in your post. And yes, she was

very close to him and had a lovely family before this happened. He was a

gentle man and the stories of him and what my grandmother has told me are

always of his peaceable ways, kindnesses.. as well as he was a lot of fun

for my mother and her family.

 

 

 

I am my mother's 2nd child which shows me then in her 7H. And in my chart,

Ketu, representing maternal grandfather is right on my first house. This is

also in nakshatra Magha (Ketu) whose deity is the Pitras, one's family

ancestors. And intriguingly, my book lists "grandfather of a woman and

grandmother of a man as: 1st house." I have always found this quite

interesting.

 

 

 

In my mother's chart Saturn owns her 8H, 12H from 9H of father, also owned

by Saturn. Saturn goes to her 6H (12H of loss for me in her chart) of

Scorpio at 11 degrees. My natal Sun, ruler of my 1H, is at 12 degrees

Scorpio in my 4H of mother and also my Moon there debilitated in Scorpio,

and almost to exact worse degree.

 

 

 

My mother's 7H also has Ketu in Moola, Ketu's star again, and 7H owned by

Jupiter. Jupiter is also in Pisces in my own chart and in 8H (and at 11

degrees!) which "Death and legacies of grandfather for a woman" is listed

as: 8H, and one's ancestors along with other significators for this. In

navamsa, my mother's 7H has Jupiter in Leo at 27 degrees. My ascendant is

at 26 degrees Leo. She also has Moon just short of 26 degrees Leo in her

Navamsa chart (and that Mars as well at 3 degrees in Magha.)

 

 

 

Another interesting thing regarding her Navamsa chart is Mercury is final

depositor of that chart and is also Rashi lagna lord, and it is in her

Navamsa 8H. This is right exactly by degree in Virgo where my debilitated

Venus sits (and conjoined exactly with my natal Neptune who is also listed

for suicides - although again no outer planets are used in Jyotish.)

 

 

 

This goes on and on.

 

 

 

More information regarding the suicide: My mother has said that the police

arrived at her house at twilight before dark, and she thinks it was around 7

PM. This would make sense when checking the time for sunset on May 16th. Her

father visited many people that day and we know that he didn't commit this

act until the afternoon. Given the time of police arrival, this gives us

some sense of the time of the actual suicide and if we check a few times,

the results are quite interesting. From 2:45 until 5:06 this gives a Virgo

rising (my 2nd House, which also is listed as ancestors.) Mrityu Bhaga

degree for Virgo for ascendant is listed as 14 degrees in Ernst Wilhelm's

book. That would give a time of around 3:50 to 3:55. Again I want to be

careful to not be adding to this too much? From 3:32 to 4:36 we are in the

Nakshatra of Hasta - interesting from the perspective of symbol - the hand..

Also that it is Moon's star and my 4H having debilitated Moon to nearly

exact degree of highest debility in Scorpio - along with other thoughts

pertaining to Moon's involvement here.

 

 

 

My natal Mars is at 9 degrees Virgo, in Sun's star (not yet in Hasta), and

again my 1H ruled by Sun in Scorpio, my 4H of mother. However also my

debilitated Venus conjoined Neptune is at 26 and 27 degrees in Mars

star/Jupiter sub, (no longer in Hasta). Saturn, who owns my 6 and 7 houses

is also in Virgo at 19 degrees and in Hasta.

 

 

 

So my 2H of Virgo leaves plenty of food for thought with respect to

correlating this and perhaps his time of death. And all the while, my 8H

Jupiter giving full aspect onto 2H as well as my Sun and Moon and that first

house, and Ketu by nearly exact degree, 1 degree away. This also quite

intriguing considering the above regarding Jupiter and the degrees that

correlate in my mother's and my charts.

 

 

 

There is so much in my mother's chart as well. Also my younger brother who

passed also would be represented by her 9H. And from my grandfather's

perspective, he lost all his siblings - again represented by his 3H, Aries,

my mother's 11H, and that debilitated Mars. Again, I'm not sure how more

experienced astrologers would view this but in the cuspal chart, my mother's

11H cusp is at 3:48 and the debilitated Mars is at 3:43 Cancer in an exact

Kendra.

 

 

 

My grandfather's loss of all siblings via this Mars too? And Mars itself a

karaka for siblings. One brother was murdered, another drowned, a sister

died while in childbirth. All connected with this Mars in Cancer.

 

 

 

Uttara, my significator book that I'm quite fond of is: "Dictionary of

Significators in Astrology" - by Umang Taneja and P K Sarna.

 

 

 

Kindest wishes,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Uttara

Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:49 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

Hi Patrice,

 

Nice to see you here. I too, have been away from list with other matters

for much of last month. So do forgive me for not getting back in touch with

your email some weeks back on group. I would like to answer that and pursue

your line of thinking regarding my current Dasa. Soon. I am still trying

to balance and find the energy with a lot of full plates right now.

 

This chart that you have presented below is very interesting, indeed.

 

Something that I have wanted to ask you now for a while, is the

significator book that you often refer to for reference. Can you share its

title?

 

Mars might not be an indicator for suicide but I am rather incline to

suggest that because of its desire foundation and its directness that often

can be aggressive when not being assertive with its meaning in blood, injury

and accidents, is that it could be the herring with emotional transit of

Moon as a trigger to set the impulsivity off to take ones own life. I think

too, Saturn with its tendency to be melancholic can play a role with Mars -

especially on a bad day.

 

I had a look at the transits for may 17th 1939. Oh, baby! Yikes.

 

Without getting into the lord rules - Nakshatras, I can see clearly that 5

planets are transiting in 4th hse Aries/Mars for the date. Me Ke and Mo

are in conjuction. Ve and Sa are in conjuction. And, Mars who is in lst

hse Capricorn/Sa aspects Aries/Mars

 

There are a lot of stress factors on the day of suicide with just these

planets positions, not to mention the daughters natal chart in regard to her

father.

 

Also of note. Rahu is in 10th hse, Libra/Ve for the date.

 

A lot of despondency of self. Passionate Ve gone awry. Lack of World

affirmation.

Mars impulsive hopelessness. Ketu - a feeling of no hope Alcohol or

drugs involved to alter the mind (Mer) of any sense. Especially, with Ju in

Pisces in 3rd hse of thinking and communicating, 12th from Aries/Mars.

 

Dasa for the Day Sa Sa Sa

 

From the daughters birth chart - Dasa, for the day, Ra Sa Ve Sa

 

Sa in her sixth hse Scorpio/Ma, Aries/Ma eleventh (hopes and wishes)

vanquished with her fathers demise. Mar transiting her 8th hse (lost of

male love one) for females.

 

I am guessing self inflicted gunshot wound.

 

Something with a lot of blood - knife maybe

 

Tragic.

 

As always,

 

Uttara

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology

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edic+astrology&w3=Personal+reading&c=3&s=64&.sig=yoswT0XE-vB9llMiB1sT1Q>

chart

 

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_____

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Patrice,

 

//On this day, native would have been in Saturn/Rahu/Venus/Saturn.//

 

My software gives RA-SA-VE-JU dasa for May 16 1939.

 

RAHU: occupies nakshatra of Mars.

SATURN: in own nakshatra (SA owns 12th from 10th).

VENUS: occupies nakshatra of Jupiter (who occupies 10th house of

father).

JUPITER: in nakshatra of Saturn.

 

(interesting to note that Gulika occupies 3rd in both rasi and

transit chart)

 

Jupiter, in own sign in 10th, is dispositor of Ketu (co-ruler of

Scorpio occupied by Saturn). On the day of the event Rahu was

transiting Libra (8th from 10th) whilst PD lord Venus was transiting

sign of Mars...note Mars transit through 8th in sign of Saturn and

occupying nakshatra of Sun who was transiting his natal position in

12th.

 

The conjunction of planets, including Jupiter's nakshatra lord,

bhukti lord Saturn and PD lord Venus (transiting Aries -12th from

Sun) all, save Ketu, occupy nakshatra of Ketu - Ketu occupies

nakshatra of Venus.

 

Transit Mars, significator for weapons etc., was aspecting this

conjunction of planets as well as 3rd house (parents death).

 

Best Wishes,

Mrs. Wendy

http://JyotishVidya.com

______________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Dear Wendy,

 

 

 

Wow! Thanks for this. Very nice to see your thoughts and work on this.

 

 

 

When I looked back on the earlier mails, I saw your words on 3H and suicide

and I was quite taken back by the third house involvement when I cast the

charts. I will also see what I can regarding his birth - at least we can

have the day and place, if there is no time, and view his Moon chart.

 

 

 

In PL I have forgotten how to get Gulika to show on my charts and have noted

all your posts regarding Gulika and will get it in my charts today, very

intriguing.

 

 

 

Thanks so much for your always very interesting writing and your solid clear

explanation of the chart and event Wendy, as well as your time on this.

 

 

 

My best always,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Wendy Vasicek

Thursday, May 04, 2006 6:44 AM

jyotish-vidya

Re: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

Dear Patrice,

 

//On this day, native would have been in Saturn/Rahu/Venus/Saturn.//

 

My software gives RA-SA-VE-JU dasa for May 16 1939.

 

RAHU: occupies nakshatra of Mars.

SATURN: in own nakshatra (SA owns 12th from 10th).

VENUS: occupies nakshatra of Jupiter (who occupies 10th house of

father).

JUPITER: in nakshatra of Saturn.

 

(interesting to note that Gulika occupies 3rd in both rasi and

transit chart)

 

Jupiter, in own sign in 10th, is dispositor of Ketu (co-ruler of

Scorpio occupied by Saturn). On the day of the event Rahu was

transiting Libra (8th from 10th) whilst PD lord Venus was transiting

sign of Mars...note Mars transit through 8th in sign of Saturn and

occupying nakshatra of Sun who was transiting his natal position in

12th.

 

The conjunction of planets, including Jupiter's nakshatra lord,

bhukti lord Saturn and PD lord Venus (transiting Aries -12th from

Sun) all, save Ketu, occupy nakshatra of Ketu - Ketu occupies

nakshatra of Venus.

 

Transit Mars, significator for weapons etc., was aspecting this

conjunction of planets as well as 3rd house (parents death).

 

Best Wishes,

Mrs. Wendy

http://JyotishVidya.com

______________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology

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p.s. Your Mother's Dasa for May 16th show Ra Sa Ve Ju

 

Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote: Dear Patrice,

 

Ah,

Yes.

Like a biography, it all falls into proper place with astrological details.

Along with Wendy's details too, it makes for a compelling thread of familial

effects and touches continuing generations.

 

I am so so sorry Patrice.

 

Your lengthy input and Wendy's precise outline on further astro points makes

for a wonderful lesson on many levels. I know that I appreciate all the effort

and accuracy highlighting the very real and personal reality.

 

Thank you for sharing this personal story. So sad, so hurtful. so tragic.

Yes, I did pick up on the sensitivity of your grandfather in his chart and the

tragic fallout of his daughter. Both with Jupiter in Pisces was a tip off.

Among many other details. After I hurriedly sent off my response to you I did

take a further look into navamsa for your mother's birth data and the transit

chart for the 17th. I did miss Wendy's earlier emails on the 3rd hse

involvement for suicide and Mars for weapon but I am glad I picked up on it

through what I could see even though I did not go into detail. There is no

doubt that your mother, as her siblings, were deeply affected by their father's

suicide. I am glad for you that you mother is still alive and can talk about it

a little with you. It must be consoling in some way for you even though painful

to know the truth and be able to put some of the pieces in order. It's good

your mother can talk about it for her sake. She was

unusually close to her father and lost him at such a critical age for a

daughter.

 

The timing that you talked about for the event of the suicide being in

afternoon is interesting. Intuitively, I want to say later. He was home after

a day of visiting many - in essence saying good bye. He knew it was his last

day - he could feel it in his heart and soul -his bones. He was ready to move

on. feeling really melancholic. Sunset for May 16th for San Pedro was 18:42:56.

 

I am guessing because there is a question of time of death, that no one was

home when he took his life. He was found dead. Somewhere in the home, garage or

yard area. Was there a barn by any chance? Was it your mother who found him or

did she come home to all the hell breaking loose?

 

I see your point about Virgo Asc and Hasta nakshatra

but I am also favoring a possibility of a Swati Nakshatra

 

for Libra Asc which would mean a time beginning at 16:39:09 with Swati at 6*

40'. ending at 17:43:00 with Swati Asc 20* Li 7' 51"

 

Taking the time of 16:39:09 (4:39:09 pm)

 

The Dasa was Ke Ma Su Ma (for date and time)

 

This makes Asc 6* Libra/Ve, 7th from Aries/Mar (hse of others) and Asc in

opposite conjunction to Moon 5*, Sa 2*, Ve 2*. Me 10*.

 

Ra 14* in opposite conjunction to Ke 14*, Me 10* in Aries/Mar

 

Ma 4* aspecting both 10th hse (lst) Libra/Ve and its Asc 6* along with aspect

to Sa 2* ,Mo 5*, Ve,2*, Me 10* in 4th hse (7th) Aries/Mo from Mars.

 

Sa 2* aspects 3rd hse (9th) Gemini/Me from Sa and Libra/Ve is 7th hse (lst)

from Sa and 10th hse (4th) Capricorn/Sa with Mar 4*

 

Moon star Ashwini in Aries/Ma along with Ashwini Star to Me Ve Sa in Aries/Ma

 

Rahu in lst hse Nakshatra Swati along with Asc Nakshatra Swati.

 

Su 2* Taurus 8th hse - second from Aries/Ma

 

Jupiter 8* Pisces/Ju is 6th and 8th from Conjuction Asc 6* in Libra/Ve and

aspects 9th hse Scorpio/Ma (2nd) from Jupiter

 

Navamsa shows an interesting support of where the planets are placed in the

Rasi. Sun (2nd hse) in Capricorn/Sa as Mars (4th hse) is in Rasi. Sa and Ve in

Aries/Ma as they are also in Rasi (7th hse). Mo (th hse) in Taurus/Ve as Su

(8th hse)is in Rasi. Ke (9th hse) in Leo/Su as Gk(llth hse) is in Rasi. Ju

(10th hse) in Virgo/Mer opposite Pisces/Ju (6th hse) in Rasi. Mer is placed in

Cancer/mo 8th hse. Ma and Ra in 3rd hse Aquarius/Sa

 

In Rasi:

Asc 6* Libra/Ve with Ra 14* Nakshatra Swati emphases Swati potential for self

destructive behavior if stressed. Swati being a sensitive soul and prone to

negativity when not feeling of use and balanced

 

Moon's star Ashwini ruled by Ketu with Ketu in same hse Aries/Ma and conjuct

Mer with Ashwini Nakshatra can lead one to impulsive acts of destruction when

not feeling their effect on others is of benefit or the world admiration they so

need in return for energy put forth for others is not forth coming in sincerity

or usefulness.

 

To digress for a moment:

 

There are three times during the day that seem to spark self demise. More so

than any other time of day. Those being, around dinner time or twight light

(cocktail hour), when one feels their self in aloneness after their days work

outside of themself.

After dinner hour or as one might say the late cocktail hour (without dinner)

and then bedtime with or without alcohol or drugs in the system. They are all

the vulnerable times. the body rhythm changes at these times too and are lower

in objective reasoning especially with depression.

 

Often people hear of tragedies of death in the middle of the night. Actually

these fall under the depression of fear and loneliness and hopelessness that are

exasperated from earlier events or actions in the 8pm to Midnight hour of

despondency. What happens in the middle of the night or very early morning

before sunrise (if not a repercussion failing of the body's system from 8pm

onward to bedtime actions), is really from mostly a heart attack or cerebral

attack. It is instant and often fatal.

 

Heart attacks are notorious too, early mornings after rising for the day.

Strokes strike at any time. Heart attacks are often ignored in early morning

and people do die from them in late afternoon or early evenings. Heart rhythm

abnormalities strike at any time and are often frightening and disabling, if not

killers. Moon transits set off a whole bunch of psychiatric reactions. A full

moon in the middle of the night on a psychiatric floor is really something to

witness. (That's my Nursing speaking)

 

The feeling in these charts presented here is palpable.

 

I feel I just read a book about three generations of lives - the ripple effect

of ones sensitivities, troubles and their actions. It is also (being a

counselor in muti-generational behavior) an added visualization and

psychological understanding to see the familial inheritance through the

astrology charts of all individuals involved.

 

Thank you Patrice. for sharing. This is a keeper.

 

All my best to you - and then some.

 

As Always,

 

Uttara

 

p.s. In the files section of the database I have a few authentic documents on

how time was recorded in USA with DST in the 20's and 30's plus others. If I am

not mistaken California was NOT on DST in 1927 or 1939

 

However, a few cities were. Chicago, Philadelphia just to name two of a a few.

 

Thanks ever so much for the book referral too..

 

Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote:

Hi Dear Uttara,

 

 

 

Yes, I saw your earlier post regarding your mother. I'm happy that she is

doing better right now and send my best wishes as always.

 

 

 

You are right on spot here with respect to this suicide - it was a gun.

Thanks so much for your thoughts on this chart and your time on it Uttara as

I know you are very busy at this time.

 

 

 

This chart is actually my mother's chart and he my grandfather. I spoke to

her today and interestingly she brought this up so I was able to ask a few

questions again. This happened on May 16, 1939, versus the 17th, which makes

this even a more dramatic chart on the day of his death. I had thought it

could be so when looking at the 17th's chart, but wondered if it was just my

own thoughts or prejudices creating the earlier Moon which I like to be very

careful of. Interestingly though indeed it was the 16th.

 

 

 

Parashara Light is showing no DST on the transit chart, but one on the birth

chart so I plan to call them tomorrow about this as we've seen this earlier

on list recently.

 

 

 

For my mother this has given her great worries and anxieties (6H) for her

life and much of the other things you mention in your post. And yes, she was

very close to him and had a lovely family before this happened. He was a

gentle man and the stories of him and what my grandmother has told me are

always of his peaceable ways, kindnesses.. as well as he was a lot of fun

for my mother and her family.

 

 

 

I am my mother's 2nd child which shows me then in her 7H. And in my chart,

Ketu, representing maternal grandfather is right on my first house. This is

also in nakshatra Magha (Ketu) whose deity is the Pitras, one's family

ancestors. And intriguingly, my book lists "grandfather of a woman and

grandmother of a man as: 1st house." I have always found this quite

interesting.

 

 

 

In my mother's chart Saturn owns her 8H, 12H from 9H of father, also owned

by Saturn. Saturn goes to her 6H (12H of loss for me in her chart) of

Scorpio at 11 degrees. My natal Sun, ruler of my 1H, is at 12 degrees

Scorpio in my 4H of mother and also my Moon there debilitated in Scorpio,

and almost to exact worse degree.

 

 

 

My mother's 7H also has Ketu in Moola, Ketu's star again, and 7H owned by

Jupiter. Jupiter is also in Pisces in my own chart and in 8H (and at 11

degrees!) which "Death and legacies of grandfather for a woman" is listed

as: 8H, and one's ancestors along with other significators for this. In

navamsa, my mother's 7H has Jupiter in Leo at 27 degrees. My ascendant is

at 26 degrees Leo. She also has Moon just short of 26 degrees Leo in her

Navamsa chart (and that Mars as well at 3 degrees in Magha.)

 

 

 

Another interesting thing regarding her Navamsa chart is Mercury is final

depositor of that chart and is also Rashi lagna lord, and it is in her

Navamsa 8H. This is right exactly by degree in Virgo where my debilitated

Venus sits (and conjoined exactly with my natal Neptune who is also listed

for suicides - although again no outer planets are used in Jyotish.)

 

 

 

This goes on and on.

 

 

 

More information regarding the suicide: My mother has said that the police

arrived at her house at twilight before dark, and she thinks it was around 7

PM. This would make sense when checking the time for sunset on May 16th. Her

father visited many people that day and we know that he didn't commit this

act until the afternoon. Given the time of police arrival, this gives us

some sense of the time of the actual suicide and if we check a few times,

the results are quite interesting. From 2:45 until 5:06 this gives a Virgo

rising (my 2nd House, which also is listed as ancestors.) Mrityu Bhaga

degree for Virgo for ascendant is listed as 14 degrees in Ernst Wilhelm's

book. That would give a time of around 3:50 to 3:55. Again I want to be

careful to not be adding to this too much? From 3:32 to 4:36 we are in the

Nakshatra of Hasta - interesting from the perspective of symbol - the hand..

Also that it is Moon's star and my 4H having debilitated Moon to nearly

exact degree of highest debility in Scorpio - along with other thoughts

pertaining to Moon's involvement here.

 

 

 

My natal Mars is at 9 degrees Virgo, in Sun's star (not yet in Hasta), and

again my 1H ruled by Sun in Scorpio, my 4H of mother. However also my

debilitated Venus conjoined Neptune is at 26 and 27 degrees in Mars

star/Jupiter sub, (no longer in Hasta). Saturn, who owns my 6 and 7 houses

is also in Virgo at 19 degrees and in Hasta.

 

 

 

So my 2H of Virgo leaves plenty of food for thought with respect to

correlating this and perhaps his time of death. And all the while, my 8H

Jupiter giving full aspect onto 2H as well as my Sun and Moon and that first

house, and Ketu by nearly exact degree, 1 degree away. This also quite

intriguing considering the above regarding Jupiter and the degrees that

correlate in my mother's and my charts.

 

 

 

There is so much in my mother's chart as well. Also my younger brother who

passed also would be represented by her 9H. And from my grandfather's

perspective, he lost all his siblings - again represented by his 3H, Aries,

my mother's 11H, and that debilitated Mars. Again, I'm not sure how more

experienced astrologers would view this but in the cuspal chart, my mother's

11H cusp is at 3:48 and the debilitated Mars is at 3:43 Cancer in an exact

Kendra.

 

 

 

My grandfather's loss of all siblings via this Mars too? And Mars itself a

karaka for siblings. One brother was murdered, another drowned, a sister

died while in childbirth. All connected with this Mars in Cancer.

 

 

 

Uttara, my significator book that I'm quite fond of is: "Dictionary of

Significators in Astrology" - by Umang Taneja and P K Sarna.

 

 

 

Kindest wishes,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Uttara

Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:49 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

Hi Patrice,

 

Nice to see you here. I too, have been away from list with other matters

for much of last month. So do forgive me for not getting back in touch with

your email some weeks back on group. I would like to answer that and pursue

your line of thinking regarding my current Dasa. Soon. I am still trying

to balance and find the energy with a lot of full plates right now.

 

This chart that you have presented below is very interesting, indeed.

 

Something that I have wanted to ask you now for a while, is the

significator book that you often refer to for reference. Can you share its

title?

 

Mars might not be an indicator for suicide but I am rather incline to

suggest that because of its desire foundation and its directness that often

can be aggressive when not being assertive with its meaning in blood, injury

and accidents, is that it could be the herring with emotional transit of

Moon as a trigger to set the impulsivity off to take ones own life. I think

too, Saturn with its tendency to be melancholic can play a role with Mars -

especially on a bad day.

 

I had a look at the transits for may 17th 1939. Oh, baby! Yikes.

 

Without getting into the lord rules - Nakshatras, I can see clearly that 5

planets are transiting in 4th hse Aries/Mars for the date. Me Ke and Mo

are in conjuction. Ve and Sa are in conjuction. And, Mars who is in lst

hse Capricorn/Sa aspects Aries/Mars

 

There are a lot of stress factors on the day of suicide with just these

planets positions, not to mention the daughters natal chart in regard to her

father.

 

Also of note. Rahu is in 10th hse, Libra/Ve for the date.

 

A lot of despondency of self. Passionate Ve gone awry. Lack of World

affirmation.

Mars impulsive hopelessness. Ketu - a feeling of no hope Alcohol or

drugs involved to alter the mind (Mer) of any sense. Especially, with Ju in

Pisces in 3rd hse of thinking and communicating, 12th from Aries/Mars.

 

Dasa for the Day Sa Sa Sa

 

From the daughters birth chart - Dasa, for the day, Ra Sa Ve Sa

 

Sa in her sixth hse Scorpio/Ma, Aries/Ma eleventh (hopes and wishes)

vanquished with her fathers demise. Mar transiting her 8th hse (lost of

male love one) for females.

 

I am guessing self inflicted gunshot wound.

 

Something with a lot of blood - knife maybe

 

Tragic.

 

As always,

 

Uttara

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology

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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is

that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that

most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we

unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated

from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return

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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is

that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that

most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we

unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated

from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return

To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy,

 

I appreciate you delineation and interpretation on this chart and its transit

for May 17, 1939

 

Its interesting and a great lesson to see how you use the Rulers of the

Nakshatra Lords and then how you look from the 10th hse of father and then the

Navamsa.

 

Always something to learn and look at in a more accurate reading. thanks

 

As Always,

 

Uttara

 

Wendy Vasicek <jyotish wrote:

Dear Patrice,

 

//On this day, native would have been in Saturn/Rahu/Venus/Saturn.//

 

My software gives RA-SA-VE-JU dasa for May 16 1939.

 

RAHU: occupies nakshatra of Mars.

SATURN: in own nakshatra (SA owns 12th from 10th).

VENUS: occupies nakshatra of Jupiter (who occupies 10th house of

father).

JUPITER: in nakshatra of Saturn.

 

(interesting to note that Gulika occupies 3rd in both rasi and

transit chart)

 

Jupiter, in own sign in 10th, is dispositor of Ketu (co-ruler of

Scorpio occupied by Saturn). On the day of the event Rahu was

transiting Libra (8th from 10th) whilst PD lord Venus was transiting

sign of Mars...note Mars transit through 8th in sign of Saturn and

occupying nakshatra of Sun who was transiting his natal position in

12th.

 

The conjunction of planets, including Jupiter's nakshatra lord,

bhukti lord Saturn and PD lord Venus (transiting Aries -12th from

Sun) all, save Ketu, occupy nakshatra of Ketu - Ketu occupies

nakshatra of Venus.

 

Transit Mars, significator for weapons etc., was aspecting this

conjunction of planets as well as 3rd house (parents death).

 

Best Wishes,

Mrs. Wendy

http://JyotishVidya.com

______________________________

 

 

 

 

Astrology chart Vedic astrology Personal reading

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web.

 

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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is

that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that

most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we

unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated

from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return

To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

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jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Uttara

Thursday, May 04, 2006 4:50 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

* p.s. Your Mother's Dasa for May 16th show Ra Sa Ve Ju

 

Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote: Dear Patrice,

 

Ah,

Yes.

Like a biography, it all falls into proper place with astrological

details. Along with Wendy's details too, it makes for a compelling thread

of familial effects and touches continuing generations.

 

I am so so sorry Patrice.

 

Your lengthy input and Wendy's precise outline on further astro points

makes for a wonderful lesson on many levels. I know that I appreciate all

the effort and accuracy highlighting the very real and personal reality.

 

Thank you for sharing this personal story. So sad, so hurtful. so tragic.

Yes, I did pick up on the sensitivity of your grandfather in his chart and

the tragic fallout of his daughter. Both with Jupiter in Pisces was a tip

off. Among many other details. After I hurriedly sent off my response to

you I did take a further look into navamsa for your mother's birth data and

the transit chart for the 17th. I did miss Wendy's earlier emails on the

3rd hse involvement for suicide and Mars for weapon but I am glad I picked

up on it through what I could see even though I did not go into detail.

There is no doubt that your mother, as her siblings, were deeply affected by

their father's suicide. I am glad for you that you mother is still alive

and can talk about it a little with you. It must be consoling in some way

for you even though painful to know the truth and be able to put some of the

pieces in order. It's good your mother can talk about it for her sake. She

was

unusually close to her father and lost him at such a critical age for a

daughter.

 

The timing that you talked about for the event of the suicide being in

afternoon is interesting. Intuitively, I want to say later. He was home

after a day of visiting many - in essence saying good bye. He knew it was

his last day - he could feel it in his heart and soul -his bones. He was

ready to move on. feeling really melancholic. Sunset for May 16th for San

Pedro was 18:42:56.

 

I am guessing because there is a question of time of death, that no one

was home when he took his life. He was found dead. Somewhere in the home,

garage or yard area. Was there a barn by any chance? Was it your mother

who found him or did she come home to all the hell breaking loose?

 

I see your point about Virgo Asc and Hasta nakshatra

 

but I am also favoring a possibility of a Swati Nakshatra

 

for Libra Asc which would mean a time beginning at 16:39:09 with Swati at

6* 40'. ending at 17:43:00 with Swati Asc 20* Li 7' 51"

 

Taking the time of 16:39:09 (4:39:09 pm)

 

The Dasa was Ke Ma Su Ma (for date and time)

 

This makes Asc 6* Libra/Ve, 7th from Aries/Mar (hse of others) and Asc in

opposite conjunction to Moon 5*, Sa 2*, Ve 2*. Me 10*.

 

Ra 14* in opposite conjunction to Ke 14*, Me 10* in Aries/Mar

 

Ma 4* aspecting both 10th hse (lst) Libra/Ve and its Asc 6* along with

aspect to Sa 2* ,Mo 5*, Ve,2*, Me 10* in 4th hse (7th) Aries/Mo from Mars.

 

Sa 2* aspects 3rd hse (9th) Gemini/Me from Sa and Libra/Ve is 7th hse

(lst) from Sa and 10th hse (4th) Capricorn/Sa with Mar 4*

 

Moon star Ashwini in Aries/Ma along with Ashwini Star to Me Ve Sa in

Aries/Ma

 

Rahu in lst hse Nakshatra Swati along with Asc Nakshatra Swati.

 

Su 2* Taurus 8th hse - second from Aries/Ma

 

Jupiter 8* Pisces/Ju is 6th and 8th from Conjuction Asc 6* in Libra/Ve

and aspects 9th hse Scorpio/Ma (2nd) from Jupiter

 

Navamsa shows an interesting support of where the planets are placed in

the Rasi. Sun (2nd hse) in Capricorn/Sa as Mars (4th hse) is in Rasi. Sa

and Ve in Aries/Ma as they are also in Rasi (7th hse). Mo (th hse) in

Taurus/Ve as Su (8th hse)is in Rasi. Ke (9th hse) in Leo/Su as Gk(llth hse)

is in Rasi. Ju (10th hse) in Virgo/Mer opposite Pisces/Ju (6th hse) in

Rasi. Mer is placed in Cancer/mo 8th hse. Ma and Ra in 3rd hse Aquarius/Sa

 

In Rasi:

Asc 6* Libra/Ve with Ra 14* Nakshatra Swati emphases Swati potential for

self destructive behavior if stressed. Swati being a sensitive soul and

prone to negativity when not feeling of use and balanced

 

Moon's star Ashwini ruled by Ketu with Ketu in same hse Aries/Ma and

conjuct Mer with Ashwini Nakshatra can lead one to impulsive acts of

destruction when not feeling their effect on others is of benefit or the

world admiration they so need in return for energy put forth for others is

not forth coming in sincerity or usefulness.

 

To digress for a moment:

 

There are three times during the day that seem to spark self demise. More

so than any other time of day. Those being, around dinner time or twight

light (cocktail hour), when one feels their self in aloneness after their

days work outside of themself.

After dinner hour or as one might say the late cocktail hour (without

dinner) and then bedtime with or without alcohol or drugs in the system.

They are all the vulnerable times. the body rhythm changes at these times

too and are lower in objective reasoning especially with depression.

 

Often people hear of tragedies of death in the middle of the night.

Actually these fall under the depression of fear and loneliness and

hopelessness that are exasperated from earlier events or actions in the 8pm

to Midnight hour of despondency. What happens in the middle of the night or

very early morning before sunrise (if not a repercussion failing of the

body's system from 8pm onward to bedtime actions), is really from mostly a

heart attack or cerebral attack. It is instant and often fatal.

 

Heart attacks are notorious too, early mornings after rising for the day.

Strokes strike at any time. Heart attacks are often ignored in early

morning and people do die from them in late afternoon or early evenings.

Heart rhythm abnormalities strike at any time and are often frightening and

disabling, if not killers. Moon transits set off a whole bunch of

psychiatric reactions. A full moon in the middle of the night on a

psychiatric floor is really something to witness. (That's my Nursing

speaking)

 

The feeling in these charts presented here is palpable.

 

I feel I just read a book about three generations of lives - the ripple

effect of ones sensitivities, troubles and their actions. It is also (being

a counselor in muti-generational behavior) an added visualization and

psychological understanding to see the familial inheritance through the

astrology charts of all individuals involved.

 

Thank you Patrice. for sharing. This is a keeper.

 

All my best to you - and then some.

 

As Always,

 

Uttara

 

p.s. In the files section of the database I have a few authentic

documents on how time was recorded in USA with DST in the 20's and 30's plus

others. If I am not mistaken California was NOT on DST in 1927 or 1939

 

However, a few cities were. Chicago, Philadelphia just to name two of a a

few.

 

Thanks ever so much for the book referral too..

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Dear Uttara,

 

 

 

Thanks for your very thoughtful and kind note. And no problem regarding the

book title, it’s quite good in my opinion.

 

 

 

It has been very good for my mother to talk to me about this since her move

here four years ago. She had never really spoken of it, and at the time of

his death no one really spoke – awful ey to not speak of it, or with my

mother regarding this when it all happened, but it was quite common at that

time to handle these kinds of things without speaking of them.

 

 

 

After the passing of my brother and her move here she suddenly was good with

trying some of the Bach Flowers and that has been very good for her.

Something she was always kind of against -different healing methods or an

unusual - to her - diet etc.. just no interest, in part perhaps. As Bach and

homeopathy are things I’m quite involved in, it was amazing to see her ask

about a remedy. And I have always spoken more of this tragic event, have

known of it and grown up with it, as my grandmother spoke to me of it more.

 

 

 

He did this away from their home and the police had handled it all before

coming to their home. I have never asked the kinds of details of where

exactly, in a car perhaps, on a hill near the ocean, I don’t know for sure

but seem to remember something of it. My grandmother has always told me he

did this in hopes it would relieve the financial difficulty, and via

insurance, that they as well as so many others were going through at that

time. The 30’s here in the US were very, very hard on many families. Another

thing to note is my grandfather was from Denmark, coming here at around 20

years old. I don’t know if it’s actually true by my own experience, having

not lived there, but have always been told by my family that it was more

accepting of suicide in the Danish culture.

 

 

 

As for time, you could be correct – all we know is that he had been found

and all dealt with before they came to my mother’s home. Your thoughts on it

and detailed analysis are very interesting, many thanks.

 

 

 

You wrote: It is also (being a counselor in muti-generational behavior) an

added visualization and psychological understanding to see the familial

inheritance through the astrology charts of all individuals involved.

 

 

 

I didn’t know that you were a counselor, and isn’t this interesting being

multi-generational behavior. Yes, having this ability to see this in charts

must be very helpful and much more clear for your understanding. Fantastic

Uttara!

 

 

 

As for suicides, I’ve often been told or heard that it strongly affects 5

generations. Don’t know how that number is the magic one ;-) I do though

clearly see the affects of this tragic day and act so strongly in my mother

and see it in her views in raising us, her thoughts particularly regarding

men and my brothers, etc.. My grandmother was an exceptionally strong and

capable woman and well beyond just this obviously large event in her life.

She somehow through her life gave my mother such confidence in the strength

of women. The polar opposite of course of what her experience had taught her

regarding her father and men so it was very interesting to consider her

thoughts and different views while I was growing up and during my life. Also

she is a Gemini – always two views on everything right – ha! ;-)

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Patrice

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Uttara

Thursday, May 04, 2006 4:50 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

p.s. Your Mother's Dasa for May 16th show Ra Sa Ve Ju

 

Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote: Dear Patrice,

 

Ah,

Yes.

Like a biography, it all falls into proper place with astrological

details. Along with Wendy's details too, it makes for a compelling thread

of familial effects and touches continuing generations.

 

I am so so sorry Patrice.

 

Your lengthy input and Wendy's precise outline on further astro points

makes for a wonderful lesson on many levels. I know that I appreciate all

the effort and accuracy highlighting the very real and personal reality.

 

Thank you for sharing this personal story. So sad, so hurtful. so tragic.

Yes, I did pick up on the sensitivity of your grandfather in his chart and

the tragic fallout of his daughter. Both with Jupiter in Pisces was a tip

off. Among many other details. After I hurriedly sent off my response to

you I did take a further look into navamsa for your mother's birth data and

the transit chart for the 17th. I did miss Wendy's earlier emails on the

3rd hse involvement for suicide and Mars for weapon but I am glad I picked

up on it through what I could see even though I did not go into detail.

There is no doubt that your mother, as her siblings, were deeply affected by

their father's suicide. I am glad for you that you mother is still alive

and can talk about it a little with you. It must be consoling in some way

for you even though painful to know the truth and be able to put some of the

pieces in order. It's good your mother can talk about it for her sake. She

was

unusually close to her father and lost him at such a critical age for a

daughter.

 

The timing that you talked about for the event of the suicide being in

afternoon is interesting. Intuitively, I want to say later. He was home

after a day of visiting many - in essence saying good bye. He knew it was

his last day - he could feel it in his heart and soul -his bones. He was

ready to move on. feeling really melancholic. Sunset for May 16th for San

Pedro was 18:42:56.

 

I am guessing because there is a question of time of death, that no one

was home when he took his life. He was found dead. Somewhere in the home,

garage or yard area. Was there a barn by any chance? Was it your mother

who found him or did she come home to all the hell breaking loose?

 

I see your point about Virgo Asc and Hasta nakshatra

 

but I am also favoring a possibility of a Swati Nakshatra

 

for Libra Asc which would mean a time beginning at 16:39:09 with Swati at

6* 40'. ending at 17:43:00 with Swati Asc 20* Li 7' 51"

 

Taking the time of 16:39:09 (4:39:09 pm)

 

The Dasa was Ke Ma Su Ma (for date and time)

 

This makes Asc 6* Libra/Ve, 7th from Aries/Mar (hse of others) and Asc in

opposite conjunction to Moon 5*, Sa 2*, Ve 2*. Me 10*.

 

Ra 14* in opposite conjunction to Ke 14*, Me 10* in Aries/Mar

 

Ma 4* aspecting both 10th hse (lst) Libra/Ve and its Asc 6* along with

aspect to Sa 2* ,Mo 5*, Ve,2*, Me 10* in 4th hse (7th) Aries/Mo from Mars.

 

Sa 2* aspects 3rd hse (9th) Gemini/Me from Sa and Libra/Ve is 7th hse

(lst) from Sa and 10th hse (4th) Capricorn/Sa with Mar 4*

 

Moon star Ashwini in Aries/Ma along with Ashwini Star to Me Ve Sa in

Aries/Ma

 

Rahu in lst hse Nakshatra Swati along with Asc Nakshatra Swati.

 

Su 2* Taurus 8th hse - second from Aries/Ma

 

Jupiter 8* Pisces/Ju is 6th and 8th from Conjuction Asc 6* in Libra/Ve

and aspects 9th hse Scorpio/Ma (2nd) from Jupiter

 

Navamsa shows an interesting support of where the planets are placed in

the Rasi. Sun (2nd hse) in Capricorn/Sa as Mars (4th hse) is in Rasi. Sa

and Ve in Aries/Ma as they are also in Rasi (7th hse). Mo (th hse) in

Taurus/Ve as Su (8th hse)is in Rasi. Ke (9th hse) in Leo/Su as Gk(llth hse)

is in Rasi. Ju (10th hse) in Virgo/Mer opposite Pisces/Ju (6th hse) in

Rasi. Mer is placed in Cancer/mo 8th hse. Ma and Ra in 3rd hse Aquarius/Sa

 

In Rasi:

Asc 6* Libra/Ve with Ra 14* Nakshatra Swati emphases Swati potential for

self destructive behavior if stressed. Swati being a sensitive soul and

prone to negativity when not feeling of use and balanced

 

Moon's star Ashwini ruled by Ketu with Ketu in same hse Aries/Ma and

conjuct Mer with Ashwini Nakshatra can lead one to impulsive acts of

destruction when not feeling their effect on others is of benefit or the

world admiration they so need in return for energy put forth for others is

not forth coming in sincerity or usefulness.

 

To digress for a moment:

 

There are three times during the day that seem to spark self demise. More

so than any other time of day. Those being, around dinner time or twight

light (cocktail hour), when one feels their self in aloneness after their

days work outside of themself.

After dinner hour or as one might say the late cocktail hour (without

dinner) and then bedtime with or without alcohol or drugs in the system.

They are all the vulnerable times. the body rhythm changes at these times

too and are lower in objective reasoning especially with depression.

 

Often people hear of tragedies of death in the middle of the night.

Actually these fall under the depression of fear and loneliness and

hopelessness that are exasperated from earlier events or actions in the 8pm

to Midnight hour of despondency. What happens in the middle of the night or

very early morning before sunrise (if not a repercussion failing of the

body's system from 8pm onward to bedtime actions), is really from mostly a

heart attack or cerebral attack. It is instant and often fatal.

 

Heart attacks are notorious too, early mornings after rising for the day.

Strokes strike at any time. Heart attacks are often ignored in early

morning and people do die from them in late afternoon or early evenings.

Heart rhythm abnormalities strike at any time and are often frightening and

disabling, if not killers. Moon transits set off a whole bunch of

psychiatric reactions. A full moon in the middle of the night on a

psychiatric floor is really something to witness. (That's my Nursing

speaking)

 

The feeling in these charts presented here is palpable.

 

I feel I just read a book about three generations of lives - the ripple

effect of ones sensitivities, troubles and their actions. It is also (being

a counselor in muti-generational behavior) an added visualization and

psychological understanding to see the familial inheritance through the

astrology charts of all individuals involved.

 

Thank you Patrice. for sharing. This is a keeper.

 

All my best to you - and then some.

 

As Always,

 

Uttara

 

p.s. In the files section of the database I have a few authentic

documents on how time was recorded in USA with DST in the 20's and 30's plus

others. If I am not mistaken California was NOT on DST in 1927 or 1939

 

However, a few cities were. Chicago, Philadelphia just to name two of a a

few.

 

Thanks ever so much for the book referral too..

 

Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote:

Hi Dear Uttara,

 

 

 

Yes, I saw your earlier post regarding your mother. I'm happy that she is

doing better right now and send my best wishes as always.

 

 

 

You are right on spot here with respect to this suicide - it was a gun.

Thanks so much for your thoughts on this chart and your time on it Uttara as

I know you are very busy at this time.

 

 

 

This chart is actually my mother's chart and he my grandfather. I spoke to

her today and interestingly she brought this up so I was able to ask a few

questions again. This happened on May 16, 1939, versus the 17th, which makes

this even a more dramatic chart on the day of his death. I had thought it

could be so when looking at the 17th's chart, but wondered if it was just my

own thoughts or prejudices creating the earlier Moon which I like to be very

careful of. Interestingly though indeed it was the 16th.

 

 

 

Parashara Light is showing no DST on the transit chart, but one on the birth

chart so I plan to call them tomorrow about this as we've seen this earlier

on list recently.

 

 

 

For my mother this has given her great worries and anxieties (6H) for her

life and much of the other things you mention in your post. And yes, she was

very close to him and had a lovely family before this happened. He was a

gentle man and the stories of him and what my grandmother has told me are

always of his peaceable ways, kindnesses.. as well as he was a lot of fun

for my mother and her family.

 

 

 

I am my mother's 2nd child which shows me then in her 7H. And in my chart,

Ketu, representing maternal grandfather is right on my first house. This is

also in nakshatra Magha (Ketu) whose deity is the Pitras, one's family

ancestors. And intriguingly, my book lists "grandfather of a woman and

grandmother of a man as: 1st house." I have always found this quite

interesting.

 

 

 

In my mother's chart Saturn owns her 8H, 12H from 9H of father, also owned

by Saturn. Saturn goes to her 6H (12H of loss for me in her chart) of

Scorpio at 11 degrees. My natal Sun, ruler of my 1H, is at 12 degrees

Scorpio in my 4H of mother and also my Moon there debilitated in Scorpio,

and almost to exact worse degree.

 

 

 

My mother's 7H also has Ketu in Moola, Ketu's star again, and 7H owned by

Jupiter. Jupiter is also in Pisces in my own chart and in 8H (and at 11

degrees!) which "Death and legacies of grandfather for a woman" is listed

as: 8H, and one's ancestors along with other significators for this. In

navamsa, my mother's 7H has Jupiter in Leo at 27 degrees. My ascendant is

at 26 degrees Leo. She also has Moon just short of 26 degrees Leo in her

Navamsa chart (and that Mars as well at 3 degrees in Magha.)

 

 

 

Another interesting thing regarding her Navamsa chart is Mercury is final

depositor of that chart and is also Rashi lagna lord, and it is in her

Navamsa 8H. This is right exactly by degree in Virgo where my debilitated

Venus sits (and conjoined exactly with my natal Neptune who is also listed

for suicides - although again no outer planets are used in Jyotish.)

 

 

 

This goes on and on.

 

 

 

More information regarding the suicide: My mother has said that the police

arrived at her house at twilight before dark, and she thinks it was around 7

PM. This would make sense when checking the time for sunset on May 16th. Her

father visited many people that day and we know that he didn't commit this

act until the afternoon. Given the time of police arrival, this gives us

some sense of the time of the actual suicide and if we check a few times,

the results are quite interesting. From 2:45 until 5:06 this gives a Virgo

rising (my 2nd House, which also is listed as ancestors.) Mrityu Bhaga

degree for Virgo for ascendant is listed as 14 degrees in Ernst Wilhelm's

book. That would give a time of around 3:50 to 3:55. Again I want to be

careful to not be adding to this too much? From 3:32 to 4:36 we are in the

Nakshatra of Hasta - interesting from the perspective of symbol - the hand..

Also that it is Moon's star and my 4H having debilitated Moon to nearly

exact degree of highest debility in Scorpio - along with other thoughts

pertaining to Moon's involvement here.

 

 

 

My natal Mars is at 9 degrees Virgo, in Sun's star (not yet in Hasta), and

again my 1H ruled by Sun in Scorpio, my 4H of mother. However also my

debilitated Venus conjoined Neptune is at 26 and 27 degrees in Mars

star/Jupiter sub, (no longer in Hasta). Saturn, who owns my 6 and 7 houses

is also in Virgo at 19 degrees and in Hasta.

 

 

 

So my 2H of Virgo leaves plenty of food for thought with respect to

correlating this and perhaps his time of death. And all the while, my 8H

Jupiter giving full aspect onto 2H as well as my Sun and Moon and that first

house, and Ketu by nearly exact degree, 1 degree away. This also quite

intriguing considering the above regarding Jupiter and the degrees that

correlate in my mother's and my charts.

 

 

 

There is so much in my mother's chart as well. Also my younger brother who

passed also would be represented by her 9H. And from my grandfather's

perspective, he lost all his siblings - again represented by his 3H, Aries,

my mother's 11H, and that debilitated Mars. Again, I'm not sure how more

experienced astrologers would view this but in the cuspal chart, my mother's

11H cusp is at 3:48 and the debilitated Mars is at 3:43 Cancer in an exact

Kendra.

 

 

 

My grandfather's loss of all siblings via this Mars too? And Mars itself a

karaka for siblings. One brother was murdered, another drowned, a sister

died while in childbirth. All connected with this Mars in Cancer.

 

 

 

Uttara, my significator book that I'm quite fond of is: "Dictionary of

Significators in Astrology" - by Umang Taneja and P K Sarna.

 

 

 

Kindest wishes,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Uttara

Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:49 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

Hi Patrice,

 

Nice to see you here. I too, have been away from list with other matters

for much of last month. So do forgive me for not getting back in touch with

your email some weeks back on group. I would like to answer that and pursue

your line of thinking regarding my current Dasa. Soon. I am still trying

to balance and find the energy with a lot of full plates right now.

 

This chart that you have presented below is very interesting, indeed.

 

Something that I have wanted to ask you now for a while, is the

significator book that you often refer to for reference. Can you share its

title?

 

Mars might not be an indicator for suicide but I am rather incline to

suggest that because of its desire foundation and its directness that often

can be aggressive when not being assertive with its meaning in blood, injury

and accidents, is that it could be the herring with emotional transit of

Moon as a trigger to set the impulsivity off to take ones own life. I think

too, Saturn with its tendency to be melancholic can play a role with Mars -

especially on a bad day.

 

I had a look at the transits for may 17th 1939. Oh, baby! Yikes.

 

Without getting into the lord rules - Nakshatras, I can see clearly that 5

planets are transiting in 4th hse Aries/Mars for the date. Me Ke and Mo

are in conjuction. Ve and Sa are in conjuction. And, Mars who is in lst

hse Capricorn/Sa aspects Aries/Mars

 

There are a lot of stress factors on the day of suicide with just these

planets positions, not to mention the daughters natal chart in regard to her

father.

 

Also of note. Rahu is in 10th hse, Libra/Ve for the date.

 

A lot of despondency of self. Passionate Ve gone awry. Lack of World

affirmation.

Mars impulsive hopelessness. Ketu - a feeling of no hope Alcohol or

drugs involved to alter the mind (Mer) of any sense. Especially, with Ju in

Pisces in 3rd hse of thinking and communicating, 12th from Aries/Mars.

 

Dasa for the Day Sa Sa Sa

 

From the daughters birth chart - Dasa, for the day, Ra Sa Ve Sa

 

Sa in her sixth hse Scorpio/Ma, Aries/Ma eleventh (hopes and wishes)

vanquished with her fathers demise. Mar transiting her 8th hse (lost of

male love one) for females.

 

I am guessing self inflicted gunshot wound.

 

Something with a lot of blood - knife maybe

 

Tragic.

 

As always,

 

Uttara

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Patrice and Uttara,

 

Please don't take 3rd house as an indicator for suicide per se...this

is not so! It's simply that 3rd shows 'death of parents' as well as

the 'cause' of one's own death. It would be a mistake to conclude

that 3rd deals specifically with suicide.

 

Patrice Wrote:

//When I looked back on the earlier mails, I saw your words on 3H and

suicide and I was quite taken back by the third house involvement

when I cast the charts.//

 

For me the basics were fixed in my mind when I took the Maharishi

Jyotish course many years back (late '80's I think), but the role of

3rd house in 'death of parents' etc is quoted in most literature. I

know you have "Light On Life" Patrice...you will find reference to

this on page 134.

 

Uttara Wrote:

//I did miss Wendy's earlier emails on the 3rd hse involvement for

suicide and Mars for weapon but I am glad I picked up on it through

what I could see even though I did not go into detail.//

 

Significations for Mars (and other grahas) can be found on my

website. http://jyotishvidya.com/planets.htm

 

Best Wishes,

Mrs. Wendy

http://JyotishVidya.com

______________________________

[Guest guest]

jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish

wrote:

>

> Dear Patrice and Uttara,

>

> Please don't take 3rd house as an indicator for suicide per

se...this

> is not so! It's simply that 3rd shows 'death of parents' as well as

> the 'cause' of one's own death. It would be a mistake to conclude

> that 3rd deals specifically with suicide.

>

> Patrice Wrote:

> //When I looked back on the earlier mails, I saw your words on 3H

and

> suicide and I was quite taken back by the third house involvement

> when I cast the charts.//

>

> For me the basics were fixed in my mind when I took the Maharishi

> Jyotish course many years back (late '80's I think), but the role

of

> 3rd house in 'death of parents' etc is quoted in most literature. I

> know you have "Light On Life" Patrice...you will find reference to

> this on page 134.

>

> Uttara Wrote:

> //I did miss Wendy's earlier emails on the 3rd hse involvement for

> suicide and Mars for weapon but I am glad I picked up on it through

> what I could see even though I did not go into detail.//

>

> Significations for Mars (and other grahas) can be found on my

> website. http://jyotishvidya.com/planets.htm

>

> Best Wishes,

> Mrs. Wendy

> http://JyotishVidya.com

> ______________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Patrice,

 

I just checked my email before retiring for the evening and saw your response.

 

I am compelled to answer before bed. Your story has been absorbed and felt by

me - so much so - that to ignore your post this evening would be very unsettling

at least.

 

You are welcome for my empathy and understanding (for a base of not being in

your shoes) per your story.

 

However, if I may say so at this moment. I have lived with lose all my

life. And, I have parents and a mother who is still living that refuses to talk

about her trauma of loosing her first full term baby within 2 to 6 hrs of birth,

11 months before i was born.

I wish I could fill in all the blanks but it is not my trauma to tell or

share. Being in the aftermath is my story but there really isn't any pieces to

put together for real true understanding. Only the reality that this tragedy

happen and I was the immediate result of lose. I can say too, that the only

thing my mother will acknowledge on a good and lucid day of relaxation, is, that

she was in morning for a good five years without any real support for lose like

we have today.

 

As often realized by those that go back in history to find the details of a

personal story. It is in finding that the story was truly about another's karma

or destiny that we ended up being an appendage to. That then becomes our own

story. Environment (emotional as well as physical) conditioning and learned

behaviors are the rock of our own soul experience. As a whole we are or should

I say, one is much better able to recover from a tragedy with facts of reality

and understanding that life forms its own reality without our input. It then

becomes for each individual to form their own reality of just that compels one

to go on to make the most of their lives. Some can do it successfully and

others are burdened with the ghosts of past that evades their essence of self.

 

I also have as my youngest sister who was fostered into our family at age 4

1/2 and adopted at 6 yrs, her incapability to form any real attachment or trust

in anyone including herself. Being the eldest and the big sister and a role I

continue that my father would want to be carried, I can tell you that rescuing

and guiding and listening to my sister is a feat beyond Patience or reality. I

have had to go back to my mother time and again to say that even with the

highest quality of glue available, trying to mend the cracks in a broken soul is

like trying to piece together a porcelain vase. No matter how hard one tries or

how careful they are to refit the porcelain there are fine lines that run deep

that nobody can fix. One just hopes that the chips are replaceable to a fine

outline.

 

Multi-generational behaviors and conditioning are complex. For my sister the

fall out has been monumental. Her mother, she herself, her siblings, her

adopted siblings and parents, her marriage and her children, It hits all and

reverberates continuously. I was reading an arm chair psychologist take on life

happens theory the other day and her explanation for all the woes in one life

was to forgive for yourself. I am in favor of the general philosophy of self

preservation and the goal to strive for a better life. What I found and find in

reality though is that unanswered questions of who we are and where we come from

interrupts the fabric of self confidence to go forward successfully with any

longevity of peace. Forbearance is great and many people have had no choice if

they choose to live to only rely on this one common denominator, but to really

be self contained with any self is to be whole.

 

There have been many movies and written documents of people who have overcome

and they are inspirational but not one is left with a taste of being where they

are because of lose or feeling in complete.

 

Life happens and its easy for any one person to generally philosophize lives

take but for those who have to go through their own hell or lose, life then

becomes a matter of patching the chips in the porcelain and gluing the fine

lines to perfection.

 

To digress for a moment:

Yes, I was a Nurses aide for five years in a Nursing home and medical floor of

a hospital. I have my counseling certificate as a drug and alcohol counselor

and sponsor and I have years of multi generational counseling stem from my

graduate studies in the area. My involvement through the years have also taken

me into serious counseling and sponsoring of the prevention of child abuse and

its multi family generational interactions along with advocating on a county,

state and national boards for the welfare of healthy interactive family

relations. I have developed educational materials for the primary and secondary

level of schools on a local, county and state level and have been an active

school liaison between parents, police, drug agencies and school boards.

 

Hopefully this information answers some of your questions a month ago when you

wrote and questioned my background being a Virgo!

 

In the meantime and to the point.

 

The feeling I got from your mother's chart was visceral, I absorbed some of

the feelings and could visualize some of the trauma. I am glad that with the

help of astrology delineation I was first able to pick up on a self inflicted

gun shot wound before I got carried away with other possibilities. Too, I kept

and keep visualizing an in closed place where the suicide event took place.

that is why I questioned a car or a barn. Garage, bathroom, something familiar

with your grandfather that he felt safe and private in. Too, your mother's

involvement, because it would be familiar to her and very traumatic. I am glad

that it happen away from home - so the real effects weren't witnessed by your

grandmother or mother or any of her siblings.

 

However, the shock and disbelief sometimes is even more so. I have an uncle

who was killed on a expressway and the phone call came into our home for my

father that he had been in a severe car accident. His children some of them

young teenagers where on the phone so no one could get through. The frantic

calls by my mother to try and patch trough to my aunt were horrifying as my

father who was in bed literally flew out of it grabbing his pants on the way out

the door to make the trek to the hospital forty minutes away. My aunt was left

with five children from the ages of 2yrs to 16 yrs old. All of them totally

shell shocked. I remember my mother taking the children out shopping for the

three day wake and funeral. My nearest cousin was two yrs older than me, 13 yrs

old. She got her first pair of high heels for her father's wake and funeral.

In the end, 17 yrs later it was my Aunt (my father's older sister by 17 months

who was killed in a car accident at the local

intersection of her neighborhood. The fall out since 1963 when my Uncle died

has had a repercussion on his children, their relationships and their children

that I could write a volume on.

 

My younger sister is another volume and my lose and it repercussions on my

mother and siblings and children, another volume. My husband lost his mother

to an early and unexpected death when he was 2 years old. So, I can write

another volume on those repercussions.

 

My point, I am sure you have gathered is very real from my own experiences

besides my schooling and applied interests. It is my empathy that is wider

Patrice because I do feel the reality.

 

You are lucky in some ways that your mother is still alive and willing to open

up and share. I am glad the Bach flower therapy is helping for both her and

you. Will you ever really know the truth of where your Grandfather's demise was

or the circumstances that lead to it - probably not. But, Being such a

sensitive individual I do pick up that his pride and self attainment was in

jeopardy of loosing face and I am not surprised that taking his own life was an

admirable way of resolving the shame for him and his wife and family.

 

I don't know if you can research police records for that time period, but

maybe in time this is something you might want to do on your own. In the

meantime, you have the family stories, the repercussions of family members and

the astrology charts to follow and piece the puzzle together. It is really

great that you have your mother your way and can nurture her soul in her

advancing years.

 

If for nothing else, I like the idea and it seems to fit, that your

grandfather might of taken his life in a car overlooking the vast ocean of

outbalance in its own peace and tranquility. How fitting for such a desperate

gentle soul.

 

Suicides like other loses do take at least five years to come out of the

varying degrees of lose and acceptance. And, yes it takes a good 3 generations

if not more to cleanse the soul of grief. And another one to two generations to

go on without the burden of untimely lose or atrocity.

 

All my best,

 

As always,

 

Uttara

 

 

 

Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote:

Hello Dear Uttara,

 

 

 

Thanks for your very thoughtful and kind note. And no problem regarding the

book title, it’s quite good in my opinion.

 

 

 

It has been very good for my mother to talk to me about this since her move

here four years ago. She had never really spoken of it, and at the time of

his death no one really spoke – awful ey to not speak of it, or with my

mother regarding this when it all happened, but it was quite common at that

time to handle these kinds of things without speaking of them.

 

 

 

After the passing of my brother and her move here she suddenly was good with

trying some of the Bach Flowers and that has been very good for her.

Something she was always kind of against -different healing methods or an

unusual - to her - diet etc.. just no interest, in part perhaps. As Bach and

homeopathy are things I’m quite involved in, it was amazing to see her ask

about a remedy. And I have always spoken more of this tragic event, have

known of it and grown up with it, as my grandmother spoke to me of it more.

 

 

 

He did this away from their home and the police had handled it all before

coming to their home. I have never asked the kinds of details of where

exactly, in a car perhaps, on a hill near the ocean, I don’t know for sure

but seem to remember something of it. My grandmother has always told me he

did this in hopes it would relieve the financial difficulty, and via

insurance, that they as well as so many others were going through at that

time. The 30’s here in the US were very, very hard on many families. Another

thing to note is my grandfather was from Denmark, coming here at around 20

years old. I don’t know if it’s actually true by my own experience, having

not lived there, but have always been told by my family that it was more

accepting of suicide in the Danish culture.

 

 

 

As for time, you could be correct – all we know is that he had been found

and all dealt with before they came to my mother’s home. Your thoughts on it

and detailed analysis are very interesting, many thanks.

 

 

 

You wrote: It is also (being a counselor in muti-generational behavior) an

added visualization and psychological understanding to see the familial

inheritance through the astrology charts of all individuals involved.

 

 

 

I didn’t know that you were a counselor, and isn’t this interesting being

multi-generational behavior. Yes, having this ability to see this in charts

must be very helpful and much more clear for your understanding. Fantastic

Uttara!

 

 

 

As for suicides, I’ve often been told or heard that it strongly affects 5

generations. Don’t know how that number is the magic one ;-) I do though

clearly see the affects of this tragic day and act so strongly in my mother

and see it in her views in raising us, her thoughts particularly regarding

men and my brothers, etc.. My grandmother was an exceptionally strong and

capable woman and well beyond just this obviously large event in her life.

She somehow through her life gave my mother such confidence in the strength

of women. The polar opposite of course of what her experience had taught her

regarding her father and men so it was very interesting to consider her

thoughts and different views while I was growing up and during my life. Also

she is a Gemini – always two views on everything right – ha! ;-)

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Patrice

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Uttara

Thursday, May 04, 2006 4:50 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

p.s. Your Mother's Dasa for May 16th show Ra Sa Ve Ju

 

Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote: Dear Patrice,

 

Ah,

Yes.

Like a biography, it all falls into proper place with astrological

details. Along with Wendy's details too, it makes for a compelling thread

of familial effects and touches continuing generations.

 

I am so so sorry Patrice.

 

Your lengthy input and Wendy's precise outline on further astro points

makes for a wonderful lesson on many levels. I know that I appreciate all

the effort and accuracy highlighting the very real and personal reality.

 

Thank you for sharing this personal story. So sad, so hurtful. so tragic.

Yes, I did pick up on the sensitivity of your grandfather in his chart and

the tragic fallout of his daughter. Both with Jupiter in Pisces was a tip

off. Among many other details. After I hurriedly sent off my response to

you I did take a further look into navamsa for your mother's birth data and

the transit chart for the 17th. I did miss Wendy's earlier emails on the

3rd hse involvement for suicide and Mars for weapon but I am glad I picked

up on it through what I could see even though I did not go into detail.

There is no doubt that your mother, as her siblings, were deeply affected by

their father's suicide. I am glad for you that you mother is still alive

and can talk about it a little with you. It must be consoling in some way

for you even though painful to know the truth and be able to put some of the

pieces in order. It's good your mother can talk about it for her sake. She

was

unusually close to her father and lost him at such a critical age for a

daughter.

 

The timing that you talked about for the event of the suicide being in

afternoon is interesting. Intuitively, I want to say later. He was home

after a day of visiting many - in essence saying good bye. He knew it was

his last day - he could feel it in his heart and soul -his bones. He was

ready to move on. feeling really melancholic. Sunset for May 16th for San

Pedro was 18:42:56.

 

I am guessing because there is a question of time of death, that no one

was home when he took his life. He was found dead. Somewhere in the home,

garage or yard area. Was there a barn by any chance? Was it your mother

who found him or did she come home to all the hell breaking loose?

 

I see your point about Virgo Asc and Hasta nakshatra

 

but I am also favoring a possibility of a Swati Nakshatra

 

for Libra Asc which would mean a time beginning at 16:39:09 with Swati at

6* 40'. ending at 17:43:00 with Swati Asc 20* Li 7' 51"

 

Taking the time of 16:39:09 (4:39:09 pm)

 

The Dasa was Ke Ma Su Ma (for date and time)

 

This makes Asc 6* Libra/Ve, 7th from Aries/Mar (hse of others) and Asc in

opposite conjunction to Moon 5*, Sa 2*, Ve 2*. Me 10*.

 

Ra 14* in opposite conjunction to Ke 14*, Me 10* in Aries/Mar

 

Ma 4* aspecting both 10th hse (lst) Libra/Ve and its Asc 6* along with

aspect to Sa 2* ,Mo 5*, Ve,2*, Me 10* in 4th hse (7th) Aries/Mo from Mars.

 

Sa 2* aspects 3rd hse (9th) Gemini/Me from Sa and Libra/Ve is 7th hse

(lst) from Sa and 10th hse (4th) Capricorn/Sa with Mar 4*

 

Moon star Ashwini in Aries/Ma along with Ashwini Star to Me Ve Sa in

Aries/Ma

 

Rahu in lst hse Nakshatra Swati along with Asc Nakshatra Swati.

 

Su 2* Taurus 8th hse - second from Aries/Ma

 

Jupiter 8* Pisces/Ju is 6th and 8th from Conjuction Asc 6* in Libra/Ve

and aspects 9th hse Scorpio/Ma (2nd) from Jupiter

 

Navamsa shows an interesting support of where the planets are placed in

the Rasi. Sun (2nd hse) in Capricorn/Sa as Mars (4th hse) is in Rasi. Sa

and Ve in Aries/Ma as they are also in Rasi (7th hse). Mo (th hse) in

Taurus/Ve as Su (8th hse)is in Rasi. Ke (9th hse) in Leo/Su as Gk(llth hse)

is in Rasi. Ju (10th hse) in Virgo/Mer opposite Pisces/Ju (6th hse) in

Rasi. Mer is placed in Cancer/mo 8th hse. Ma and Ra in 3rd hse Aquarius/Sa

 

In Rasi:

Asc 6* Libra/Ve with Ra 14* Nakshatra Swati emphases Swati potential for

self destructive behavior if stressed. Swati being a sensitive soul and

prone to negativity when not feeling of use and balanced

 

Moon's star Ashwini ruled by Ketu with Ketu in same hse Aries/Ma and

conjuct Mer with Ashwini Nakshatra can lead one to impulsive acts of

destruction when not feeling their effect on others is of benefit or the

world admiration they so need in return for energy put forth for others is

not forth coming in sincerity or usefulness.

 

To digress for a moment:

 

There are three times during the day that seem to spark self demise. More

so than any other time of day. Those being, around dinner time or twight

light (cocktail hour), when one feels their self in aloneness after their

days work outside of themself.

After dinner hour or as one might say the late cocktail hour (without

dinner) and then bedtime with or without alcohol or drugs in the system.

They are all the vulnerable times. the body rhythm changes at these times

too and are lower in objective reasoning especially with depression.

 

Often people hear of tragedies of death in the middle of the night.

Actually these fall under the depression of fear and loneliness and

hopelessness that are exasperated from earlier events or actions in the 8pm

to Midnight hour of despondency. What happens in the middle of the night or

very early morning before sunrise (if not a repercussion failing of the

body's system from 8pm onward to bedtime actions), is really from mostly a

heart attack or cerebral attack. It is instant and often fatal.

 

Heart attacks are notorious too, early mornings after rising for the day.

Strokes strike at any time. Heart attacks are often ignored in early

morning and people do die from them in late afternoon or early evenings.

Heart rhythm abnormalities strike at any time and are often frightening and

disabling, if not killers. Moon transits set off a whole bunch of

psychiatric reactions. A full moon in the middle of the night on a

psychiatric floor is really something to witness. (That's my Nursing

speaking)

 

The feeling in these charts presented here is palpable.

 

I feel I just read a book about three generations of lives - the ripple

effect of ones sensitivities, troubles and their actions. It is also (being

a counselor in muti-generational behavior) an added visualization and

psychological understanding to see the familial inheritance through the

astrology charts of all individuals involved.

 

Thank you Patrice. for sharing. This is a keeper.

 

All my best to you - and then some.

 

As Always,

 

Uttara

 

p.s. In the files section of the database I have a few authentic

documents on how time was recorded in USA with DST in the 20's and 30's plus

others. If I am not mistaken California was NOT on DST in 1927 or 1939

 

However, a few cities were. Chicago, Philadelphia just to name two of a a

few.

 

Thanks ever so much for the book referral too..

 

Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote:

Hi Dear Uttara,

 

 

 

Yes, I saw your earlier post regarding your mother. I'm happy that she is

doing better right now and send my best wishes as always.

 

 

 

You are right on spot here with respect to this suicide - it was a gun.

Thanks so much for your thoughts on this chart and your time on it Uttara as

I know you are very busy at this time.

 

 

 

This chart is actually my mother's chart and he my grandfather. I spoke to

her today and interestingly she brought this up so I was able to ask a few

questions again. This happened on May 16, 1939, versus the 17th, which makes

this even a more dramatic chart on the day of his death. I had thought it

could be so when looking at the 17th's chart, but wondered if it was just my

own thoughts or prejudices creating the earlier Moon which I like to be very

careful of. Interestingly though indeed it was the 16th.

 

 

 

Parashara Light is showing no DST on the transit chart, but one on the birth

chart so I plan to call them tomorrow about this as we've seen this earlier

on list recently.

 

 

 

For my mother this has given her great worries and anxieties (6H) for her

life and much of the other things you mention in your post. And yes, she was

very close to him and had a lovely family before this happened. He was a

gentle man and the stories of him and what my grandmother has told me are

always of his peaceable ways, kindnesses.. as well as he was a lot of fun

for my mother and her family.

 

 

 

I am my mother's 2nd child which shows me then in her 7H. And in my chart,

Ketu, representing maternal grandfather is right on my first house. This is

also in nakshatra Magha (Ketu) whose deity is the Pitras, one's family

ancestors. And intriguingly, my book lists "grandfather of a woman and

grandmother of a man as: 1st house." I have always found this quite

interesting.

 

 

 

In my mother's chart Saturn owns her 8H, 12H from 9H of father, also owned

by Saturn. Saturn goes to her 6H (12H of loss for me in her chart) of

Scorpio at 11 degrees. My natal Sun, ruler of my 1H, is at 12 degrees

Scorpio in my 4H of mother and also my Moon there debilitated in Scorpio,

and almost to exact worse degree.

 

 

 

My mother's 7H also has Ketu in Moola, Ketu's star again, and 7H owned by

Jupiter. Jupiter is also in Pisces in my own chart and in 8H (and at 11

degrees!) which "Death and legacies of grandfather for a woman" is listed

as: 8H, and one's ancestors along with other significators for this. In

navamsa, my mother's 7H has Jupiter in Leo at 27 degrees. My ascendant is

at 26 degrees Leo. She also has Moon just short of 26 degrees Leo in her

Navamsa chart (and that Mars as well at 3 degrees in Magha.)

 

 

 

Another interesting thing regarding her Navamsa chart is Mercury is final

depositor of that chart and is also Rashi lagna lord, and it is in her

Navamsa 8H. This is right exactly by degree in Virgo where my debilitated

Venus sits (and conjoined exactly with my natal Neptune who is also listed

for suicides - although again no outer planets are used in Jyotish.)

 

 

 

This goes on and on.

 

 

 

More information regarding the suicide: My mother has said that the police

arrived at her house at twilight before dark, and she thinks it was around 7

PM. This would make sense when checking the time for sunset on May 16th. Her

father visited many people that day and we know that he didn't commit this

act until the afternoon. Given the time of police arrival, this gives us

some sense of the time of the actual suicide and if we check a few times,

the results are quite interesting. From 2:45 until 5:06 this gives a Virgo

rising (my 2nd House, which also is listed as ancestors.) Mrityu Bhaga

degree for Virgo for ascendant is listed as 14 degrees in Ernst Wilhelm's

book. That would give a time of around 3:50 to 3:55. Again I want to be

careful to not be adding to this too much? From 3:32 to 4:36 we are in the

Nakshatra of Hasta - interesting from the perspective of symbol - the hand..

Also that it is Moon's star and my 4H having debilitated Moon to nearly

exact degree of highest debility in Scorpio - along with other thoughts

pertaining to Moon's involvement here.

 

 

 

My natal Mars is at 9 degrees Virgo, in Sun's star (not yet in Hasta), and

again my 1H ruled by Sun in Scorpio, my 4H of mother. However also my

debilitated Venus conjoined Neptune is at 26 and 27 degrees in Mars

star/Jupiter sub, (no longer in Hasta). Saturn, who owns my 6 and 7 houses

is also in Virgo at 19 degrees and in Hasta.

 

 

 

So my 2H of Virgo leaves plenty of food for thought with respect to

correlating this and perhaps his time of death. And all the while, my 8H

Jupiter giving full aspect onto 2H as well as my Sun and Moon and that first

house, and Ketu by nearly exact degree, 1 degree away. This also quite

intriguing considering the above regarding Jupiter and the degrees that

correlate in my mother's and my charts.

 

 

 

There is so much in my mother's chart as well. Also my younger brother who

passed also would be represented by her 9H. And from my grandfather's

perspective, he lost all his siblings - again represented by his 3H, Aries,

my mother's 11H, and that debilitated Mars. Again, I'm not sure how more

experienced astrologers would view this but in the cuspal chart, my mother's

11H cusp is at 3:48 and the debilitated Mars is at 3:43 Cancer in an exact

Kendra.

 

 

 

My grandfather's loss of all siblings via this Mars too? And Mars itself a

karaka for siblings. One brother was murdered, another drowned, a sister

died while in childbirth. All connected with this Mars in Cancer.

 

 

 

Uttara, my significator book that I'm quite fond of is: "Dictionary of

Significators in Astrology" - by Umang Taneja and P K Sarna.

 

 

 

Kindest wishes,

 

Patrice

 

 

 

_____

 

jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya]

On Behalf Of Uttara

Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:49 PM

jyotish-vidya

RE: Re: Factors for Suicide?

 

 

 

Hi Patrice,

 

Nice to see you here. I too, have been away from list with other matters

for much of last month. So do forgive me for not getting back in touch with

your email some weeks back on group. I would like to answer that and pursue

your line of thinking regarding my current Dasa. Soon. I am still trying

to balance and find the energy with a lot of full plates right now.

 

This chart that you have presented below is very interesting, indeed.

 

Something that I have wanted to ask you now for a while, is the

significator book that you often refer to for reference. Can you share its

title?

 

Mars might not be an indicator for suicide but I am rather incline to

suggest that because of its desire foundation and its directness that often

can be aggressive when not being assertive with its meaning in blood, injury

and accidents, is that it could be the herring with emotional transit of

Moon as a trigger to set the impulsivity off to take ones own life. I think

too, Saturn with its tendency to be melancholic can play a role with Mars -

especially on a bad day.

 

I had a look at the transits for may 17th 1939. Oh, baby! Yikes.

 

Without getting into the lord rules - Nakshatras, I can see clearly that 5

planets are transiting in 4th hse Aries/Mars for the date. Me Ke and Mo

are in conjuction. Ve and Sa are in conjuction. And, Mars who is in lst

hse Capricorn/Sa aspects Aries/Mars

 

There are a lot of stress factors on the day of suicide with just these

planets positions, not to mention the daughters natal chart in regard to her

father.

 

Also of note. Rahu is in 10th hse, Libra/Ve for the date.

 

A lot of despondency of self. Passionate Ve gone awry. Lack of World

affirmation.

Mars impulsive hopelessness. Ketu - a feeling of no hope Alcohol or

drugs involved to alter the mind (Mer) of any sense. Especially, with Ju in

Pisces in 3rd hse of thinking and communicating, 12th from Aries/Mars.

 

Dasa for the Day Sa Sa Sa

 

From the daughters birth chart - Dasa, for the day, Ra Sa Ve Sa

 

Sa in her sixth hse Scorpio/Ma, Aries/Ma eleventh (hopes and wishes)

vanquished with her fathers demise. Mar transiting her 8th hse (lost of

male love one) for females.

 

I am guessing self inflicted gunshot wound.

 

Something with a lot of blood - knife maybe

 

Tragic.

 

As always,

 

Uttara

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology

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chart

 

Vedic

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reading

 

 

 

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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest

fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our

darkness, that most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about

shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you...As we let

our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the

same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically

liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

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Astrology chart Vedic astrology Personal reading

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web.

 

jyotish-vidya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest

fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our

darkness, that most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about

shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you...As we let

our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the

same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically

liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

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edic+astrology&w3=Personal+reading&c=3&s=64&.sig=yoswT0XE-vB9llMiB1sT1Q>

chart

 

Vedic

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astrology

 

Personal

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Vedic+astrology&w3=Personal+reading&c=3&s=64&.sig=tMlZMzSPyuffO0tEMLYpFg>

reading

 

 

 

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* Visit your group "jyotish-vidya

<jyotish-vidya> " on the web.

 

*

jyotish-vidya

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_____

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astrology chart Vedic astrology Personal reading

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web.

 

jyotish-vidya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is

that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that

most frightens us. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you...As we let our own light shine, we

unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated

from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return

To Love: by Marianne Williamson

 

 

 

 

Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min

with Messenger with Voice.