Guest guest Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Hello! Sean, Let me allow to ask you few questions... How did you come to the conclusion that very few karmas are fixed ?. >From what you wrote, I have a impression that between free will and Destiny (or fixed karmas), fixed karmas are rare and few while free will is easily found specially in human beings, and with the help of free will one can overcome one's karmas and can define one's destiny. Can you enlighten me why this so called free will is found only in human beings and not in other creatures? or this is found their too? Can only human beings liberate from karmas ? if yes then why not other creatures? What kind of karmas are bondage to us and what kind of karmas liberate us.? Without the help of astrology, how can one quanitify the bondage and free will.? More queries later......... Regards in advance for enlightening on this complex subject.. Truly, Acharya Vasudev ..................... jyotish-vidya, "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean> wrote: > > Namaste > > I am a novice at best when it comes to astrology and I thank Wendy for > setting up this discussion group as well as creating a great reference > website. > > I read the article on the website and would like to share my thoughts. > > I was surprised to find that the article focused on the "shookshmantar > dasa" as the reason for the difference in the life events of twins. I > would have thought this would be low on the list of things that would > account for the difference. > > I would of thought that the most obvious reason for the difference > would be that it is not merely the influence of planets that guide our > lives. The decisions we make and the actions we take in this life > shape our future as much as the karmas that we we born with. It is > more than conceivable to me that after 20+ years of living, even twins > may have very different lives. > > From what I understand very few karmas are fixed and I think that is > why astrology can tell us when the planetary arrangements are either > favorable or unfavorable for the birth of a child, but may not be able > to tell us whether or not a child will actually be born unless there is > a very high degree of confluence found. And I believe that even when > conditions are unfavorable according to the placement of planets, it is > still possible to have a child -- there may be more obstacles, but it > is still possible if the will is there. > > I would think that in the example provided in the article that if both > of the twins wanted to have a child and had been focusing their will on > having a child then the favorable period mentioned in the article would > have brought a child for both. > > Also, in this case I would have thought to look in other places for > confluence before looking at the shookshmantar dasa. > > In the specific case of child birth, why not look at the charts of both > parents? I would think that if both parents are in favorable dasas > with favorable transits then it is more likely that a child will be > born. The difference in the charts of the twins' spouses may go a long > way when using astrology to explain why one twin had a child and the > other didn't. > > The article pointed out that there is a one significator for elder > sibling and a different one for younger sibling, and so that creates a > very different view when looking at one twin from the other's chart. > So why not look at each twin from both charts and see if there is > confluence that indicates one having a child and not the other? That > would be basically looking at the condition of the 5th house from the > significator, right? > > Reading the article also created other questions for me regarding dasas: > > Using this example, is Jup-Rah-Jup really more favorable then say Jup- > Jup-Rah? If so why? Or why wouldn't Jup-Rah-Mer be more favorable > since the influence of Mercury seemed to make such a difference > according the article? > > Regards, > Sean > > > jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@o...> > wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > Just a quick announcement that the article is "up". For those > > interested it can be viewed at: http://jyotishvidya.com/twins.htm > > __ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Acharya Vasudev, Namaste > Hello! > Sean, > Let me allow to ask you few questions... > > How did you come to the conclusion that very few karmas are fixed? I'm not sure how - I guess by what I have learned through various means. It is certainly possible that this conclusion is wrong -- maybe no karmas are actually fixed to the point where it not possible to lessen their effect. > From what you wrote, I have a impression that between free will and > Destiny (or fixed karmas), fixed karmas are rare and few while free > will is easily found specially in human beings, and >with the help of > free will one can overcome one's karmas and can define one's >destiny. Yes, that is what I think. We have free will to act how we want to act and then those actions determine one's destiny. Sure, it is the through the law of karma that the results of our actions are carried out, but we are the ones who decide to act in the first place. And the good and bad effects of past actions can be increased, lessened, or nullified in part by actions we take today. A lot of that is based on the teachings of saints and sages. For example, this is what Paramahansa Yoganda has written in his autobiography: "... faith in divine protection, and right use of man's God-given free will, are forces more formidable than are influences flowing from the heavens. The starry inscription at one's birth, I came to understand, is not that man is a puppet of his past. Its message is rather a prod to pride: the very heavens seek to arouse man's determination to be free from every limitation. God created each man as a soul, dowered with individuality, hence essential to the universal structure, whether in the temporary role of pillar or parasite. His freedom is final and immediate, if he so wills; it depends not on outer but inner victories." Swami Sri Yukteswar, Yogananda's Guru, had said this: "The message boldly blazoned across the heavens at the moment of birth in not meant to emphasize fate -- the result of past good and evil -- but to arouse man's will to escape from his universal thralldom. What he has done, he can undo. None other than himself was the instigator of the causes of whatever effects are now prevalent in his life. He can overcome any limitation, because he created it by his own actions in the first place, and because he possesses spiritual resources that are not subject to planetary pressure." > > Can you enlighten me why this so called free will is found only in > human beings and not in other creatures? or this is found their too? > > Can only human beings liberate from karmas ? if yes then why not other > creatures? That is an interesting line of questioning and I do not have answers for you. > What kind of karmas are bondage to us and what kind of karmas liberate > us.? That is a good question -- after much deliberation, I would say that it isn't "karma" that binds us or liberates us -- karma is the mechanism that carries out the results of our actions. We are seamingly "bound" because we are identified with that which is bounded. Can it be through karma that we eventually become unaffected by karma? My answer to that is no. We become unaffected by karma by indentifying with that which is unaffected by karma - i.e. our True Self. Through practices which include self-effort and will-power, we can become identified more with that which is intrinsically Free and less with that which is bound. > > Without the help of astrology, how can one quanitify the bondage and > free will.? As I have said, I believe that ultimately we are the ones who have decided and continue to decide our level of bondage, whether we realize it or not; and we all have the ability to exercise our will to become free. I am certainly not of the opinion that astrology has no use -- it is a tool that can be used to quicken our progression. Here is another quote from Swami Sri Yukteswar: "All human ills arise from some transgression of universal law. The scriptures point out that man must satisfy the laws of nature, while not discrediting the divine omnipotence. He should say "Lord, I trust in Thee, and know Thou canst help me, but I too will do my best to undo any wrong I have done.' By a number of means -- by prayer, by will power, by yoga meditation, by consultation with saints, by use of astrological bangles -- the adverse effects of past wrongs can be minimized or nullified." Really, what good would a knowledge of the planetary influences be if we couldn't act on that knowledge to influence the outcome of our lives? > > More queries later......... > > Regards in advance for enlightening on this complex subject.. Well, at the very least, my understanding has been clarified some by doing my best to provide answers to your queries. It certainly is a deep subject. To all members, I appologize for possibly side-tracking the group from the usual questions regarding chart analysis. My orginal posting did include questions about the specifics of chart analysis, but as it turned out those questions did not attract responses and this is where the discussion went. I think that is a good thing because it is quite important to know if we can make a difference in our lives or not. Kind Regards, Sean > > Truly, > Acharya Vasudev > .................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Dear Sean and ALL, Sean Wrote: For example, this is what Paramahansa Yoganda has written in his autobiography: "... faith in divine protection, and right use of man's God-given free will, are forces more formidable than are influences flowing from the heavens. The starry inscription at one's birth, I came to understand, is not that man is a puppet of his past. Its message is rather a prod to pride: the very heavens seek to arouse man's determination to be free from every limitation. God created each man as a soul, dowered with individuality, hence essential to the universal structure, whether in the temporary role of pillar or parasite. His freedom is final and immediate, if he so wills; it depends not on outer but inner victories." ============================= My Response: What we have to be aware of (first and foremost) is that the laws of karma, as laid out by the Rishis, are what's due to a person in this life. And, like it or not, even great saints like Paramahansa are bound by these laws. According to most religious treatises (in this instance from the Kabbala), this world of information, thoughts and feelings, affecting us through material laws of (perceptible) nature and chance, places us in certain situations that determine the way we act. We have no influence in matters like the time and place of our birth, or who we are going to be, whom we are going to meet in our life, and what consequences our actions are going to have.. However (hopefully) what all right-minded astrologers come to realise is that this knowledge itself can become a door to liberation, as, realising more and more the futility of the human condition, they surrender to divine will... The understanding that we are more than the sum of our karma is a consequence of immersing oneself in jyotish. But tell me, in this vast sea of humanity, how many are drawn to this Divine science (or to any spiritual path at all)...the number is minute! Most are only concerned with enjoying more pleasure and less suffering. We see this with the volume of mails (through all the groups) asking for readings and/or some remedy to improve their lot in life. But let's get back to jyotish (as the window of karma) for a moment and take a look at Paramahansa's chart. As we know, the karaka for moksha is Ketu and the bhavas concerned with moksha are 4th, 8th and 12th. It's quite clear in Paramahansa's chart that he was destined to follow this path (in this lifetime)... 1) Ascendant rises in nakshatra of Ketu. 2) 12th moksha lord Moon occupies Ascendant (in nakshatra of Ketu). 3) Ketu himself occupies 3rd house of intentions/desires/self-will whilst his dispositor (Venus) occupies 4th moksha bhava. 4) Dispositor of Ketu's dispositor (4th moksha lord Mars) occupies 8th moksha bhava in the company of 8th lord Jupiter (Ascendant lord's dispositor). etc, etc, etc..... Now you say that anyone can follow the same path, have the same desires, the same beliefs as Paramahansa?? He was who he was because THAT was his karma. All the events of Paramahansa's life are confirmed in his horoscope... His early adventures - escaping (unsuccessfully) to the Himalayas as a young boy (12th lord Moon in lagna). His attachment to mother and unconsolable grief upon her death. His insatiable desire to find his Guru (Rahu in 9th etc), and even the fact that Sri Yukteswar was an enlightened Guru is seen with Rahi in nakshara of Ketu whilst his dispositor (9th lord) occupies 8th moksha bhava in company of 8th moksha lord Jupiter... This was Paramahansa's inescapable destiny..are you saying that everyone has the same destiny (in this life)? Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 PS: >>He was who he was because THAT was his karma.<< ....and those with similar karma will be drawn to him (and his teaching). _ Dear Sean and ALL, Sean Wrote: For example, this is what Paramahansa Yoganda has written in his autobiography: "... faith in divine protection, and right use of man's God-given free will, are forces more formidable than are influences flowing from the heavens. The starry inscription at one's birth, I came to understand, is not that man is a puppet of his past. Its message is rather a prod to pride: the very heavens seek to arouse man's determination to be free from every limitation. God created each man as a soul, dowered with individuality, hence essential to the universal structure, whether in the temporary role of pillar or parasite. His freedom is final and immediate, if he so wills; it depends not on outer but inner victories." ============================= My Response: What we have to be aware of (first and foremost) is that the laws of karma, as laid out by the Rishis, are what's due to a person in this life. And, like it or not, even great saints like Paramahansa are bound by these laws. According to most religious treatises (in this instance from the Kabbala), this world of information, thoughts and feelings, affecting us through material laws of (perceptible) nature and chance, places us in certain situations that determine the way we act. We have no influence in matters like the time and place of our birth, or who we are going to be, whom we are going to meet in our life, and what consequences our actions are going to have.. However (hopefully) what all right-minded astrologers come to realise is that this knowledge itself can become a door to liberation, as, realising more and more the futility of the human condition, they surrender to divine will... The understanding that we are more than the sum of our karma is a consequence of immersing oneself in jyotish. But tell me, in this vast sea of humanity, how many are drawn to this Divine science (or to any spiritual path at all)...the number is minute! Most are only concerned with enjoying more pleasure and less suffering. We see this with the volume of mails (through all the groups) asking for readings and/or some remedy to improve their lot in life. But let's get back to jyotish (as the window of karma) for a moment and take a look at Paramahansa's chart. As we know, the karaka for moksha is Ketu and the bhavas concerned with moksha are 4th, 8th and 12th. It's quite clear in Paramahansa's chart that he was destined to follow this path (in this lifetime)... 1) Ascendant rises in nakshatra of Ketu. 2) 12th moksha lord Moon occupies Ascendant (in nakshatra of Ketu). 3) Ketu himself occupies 3rd house of intentions/desires/self-will whilst his dispositor (Venus) occupies 4th moksha bhava. 4) Dispositor of Ketu's dispositor (4th moksha lord Mars) occupies 8th moksha bhava in the company of 8th lord Jupiter (Ascendant lord's dispositor). etc, etc, etc..... Now you say that anyone can follow the same path, have the same desires, the same beliefs as Paramahansa?? He was who he was because THAT was his karma. All the events of Paramahansa's life are confirmed in his horoscope... His early adventures - escaping (unsuccessfully) to the Himalayas as a young boy (12th lord Moon in lagna). His attachment to mother and unconsolable grief upon her death. His insatiable desire to find his Guru (Rahu in 9th etc), and even the fact that Sri Yukteswar was an enlightened Guru is seen with Rahi in nakshara of Ketu whilst his dispositor (9th lord) occupies 8th moksha bhava in company of 8th moksha lord Jupiter... This was Paramahansa's inescapable destiny..are you saying that everyone has the same destiny (in this life)? Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Dear Sean, Greetings! So your reasoning is, "maybe no karmas are actually fixed to the point where it not possible to lessen their effect." but using same logic I must be allowed to say that.. " May be all karmas are actually fixed to the point where it is not possible to alter their effect completely." You are of the opinion that the Free Will is ultimate and man's freedom is final and immediete. and this is based on the teachings of the sages and saints.You quote Paramhansa Yogananda for making us to understand this. I am sorry so say that you are infact quoting Paramhansa to contradict your own opinion and understaning of free will. Paramhansa is saying that there are two forces which are more formidable then planetary influence. One is the faith in Divine Protection and The second is the right use of God-given free will. I wonder whether it can be called free will as it is given to man by somebody other then the man himself.If it is given, then principally it can be taken back also. Really strange if we are calling it free will. and moreover the quote seems contradictory to ordinary man like me. Please guide me by eleborating that why this free will is not enough to nullify the effects of karmas and why we need the faith in Divine protection also apart from the free will. And also tell me whether having faith in Divine protection and exercising free will are in itself a kind of karma or not ? P.S.:- I think this is the right time for the moderator to tell us to continue or lay off as this discussion if continues may go out of the place.We may continue this discussion somewhere else or in private. Permission is sought. Regards Yours Truly, Acharya Vasudev http://www.acharyavasudev.com jyotish-vidya, "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean> wrote: > > Acharya Vasudev, > > Namaste > > > Hello! > > Sean, > > Let me allow to ask you few questions... > > > > How did you come to the conclusion that very few karmas are fixed? > > I'm not sure how - I guess by what I have learned through various > means. It is certainly possible that this conclusion is wrong -- > maybe no karmas are actually fixed to the point where it not possible > to lessen their effect. > > > From what you wrote, I have a impression that between free will and > > Destiny (or fixed karmas), fixed karmas are rare and few while free > > will is easily found specially in human beings, and > > >with the help of > > free will one can overcome one's karmas and can define one's > >destiny. > > Yes, that is what I think. We have free will to act how we want to > act and then those actions determine one's destiny. Sure, it is the > through the law of karma that the results of our actions are carried > out, but we are the ones who decide to act in the first place. And > the good and bad effects of past actions can be increased, lessened, > or nullified in part by actions we take today. > > A lot of that is based on the teachings of saints and sages. For > example, this is what Paramahansa Yoganda has written in his > autobiography: > > "... faith in divine protection, and right use of man's God-given > free will, are forces more formidable than are influences flowing > from the heavens. > The starry inscription at one's birth, I came to understand, is not > that man is a puppet of his past. Its message is rather a prod to > pride: the very heavens seek to arouse man's determination to be free > from every limitation. God created each man as a soul, dowered with > individuality, hence essential to the universal structure, whether in > the temporary role of pillar or parasite. His freedom is final and > immediate, if he so wills; it depends not on outer but inner > victories." > > Swami Sri Yukteswar, Yogananda's Guru, had said this: > "The message boldly blazoned across the heavens at the moment of > birth in not meant to emphasize fate -- the result of past good and > evil -- but to arouse man's will to escape from his universal > thralldom. What he has done, he can undo. None other than himself > was the instigator of the causes of whatever effects are now > prevalent in his life. He can overcome any limitation, because he > created it by his own actions in the first place, and because he > possesses spiritual resources that are not subject to planetary > pressure." > > > > > Can you enlighten me why this so called free will is found only in > > human beings and not in other creatures? or this is found their too? > > > > Can only human beings liberate from karmas ? if yes then why not > other > > creatures? > > That is an interesting line of questioning and I do not have answers > for you. > > > What kind of karmas are bondage to us and what kind of karmas > liberate > > us.? > > That is a good question -- after much deliberation, I would say that > it isn't "karma" that binds us or liberates us -- karma is the > mechanism that carries out the results of our actions. We are > seamingly "bound" because we are identified with that which is > bounded. Can it be through karma that we eventually become > unaffected by karma? My answer to that is no. We become unaffected > by karma by indentifying with that which is unaffected by karma - > i.e. our True Self. Through practices which include self-effort and > will-power, we can become identified more with that which is > intrinsically Free and less with that which is bound. > > > > > Without the help of astrology, how can one quanitify the bondage and > > free will.? > > As I have said, I believe that ultimately we are the ones who have > decided and continue to decide our level of bondage, whether we > realize it or not; and we all have the ability to exercise our will > to become free. I am certainly not of the opinion that astrology has > no use -- it is a tool that can be used to quicken our progression. > > Here is another quote from Swami Sri Yukteswar: > > "All human ills arise from some transgression of universal law. The > scriptures point out that man must satisfy the laws of nature, while > not discrediting the divine omnipotence. He should say "Lord, I > trust in Thee, and know Thou canst help me, but I too will do my best > to undo any wrong I have done.' By a number of means -- by prayer, > by will power, by yoga meditation, by consultation with saints, by > use of astrological bangles -- the adverse effects of past wrongs can > be minimized or nullified." > > Really, what good would a knowledge of the planetary influences be if > we couldn't act on that knowledge to influence the outcome of our > lives? > > > > > More queries later......... > > > > Regards in advance for enlightening on this complex subject.. > > Well, at the very least, my understanding has been clarified some by > doing my best to provide answers to your queries. It certainly is a > deep subject. > > To all members, I appologize for possibly side-tracking the group > from the usual questions regarding chart analysis. My orginal > posting did include questions about the specifics of chart analysis, > but as it turned out those questions did not attract responses and > this is where the discussion went. I think that is a good thing > because it is quite important to know if we can make a difference in > our lives or not. > > Kind Regards, > Sean > > > > > Truly, > > Acharya Vasudev > > .................... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Acharya Vasudev and all members Namaste I appologize for getting into a discussion that I do not want to take the time and effort to continue. I may not be understanding your challenges and if so then there is no hope of responding well to them, and I don't feel that what I have written has been understood either. So from my view I do not see any gain in continuing. I ask that you forgive me for that and please know that I respect and appreciate the responses you have written to my posts and the same goes for Wendy and all. Let me stop to ponder and re-read the thoughts that everyone has put forth in order to better understand them, and if you wish to re-read what I have written that may be helpful in understanding my view too. Sincerely, Sean jyotish-vidya, "V. Vasudev Acharya" <acharya.vasudev@g...> wrote: > > Dear Sean, > > Greetings! > > So your reasoning is, > "maybe no karmas are actually fixed to the point where it not possible > to lessen their effect." > but using same logic I must be allowed to say that.. > > " May be all karmas are actually fixed to the point where it is not > possible to alter their effect completely." > > You are of the opinion that the Free Will is ultimate and man's > freedom is final and immediete. > > and this is based on the teachings of the sages and saints.You quote > Paramhansa Yogananda for making us to understand this. > > I am sorry so say that you are infact quoting Paramhansa to contradict > your own opinion and understaning of free will. > > Paramhansa is saying that there are two forces which are more > formidable then planetary influence. > > One is the faith in Divine Protection and > The second is the right use of God-given free will. > > I wonder whether it can be called free will as it is given to man by > somebody other then the man himself.If it is given, then principally > it can be taken back also. > > Really strange if we are calling it free will. > and moreover > the quote seems contradictory to ordinary man like me. > > Please guide me by eleborating that why this free will is not enough > to nullify the effects of karmas and why we need the faith in > Divine protection also apart from the free will. > > And also tell me whether having faith in Divine protection and > exercising free will are in itself a kind of karma or not ? > > P.S.:- I think this is the right time for the moderator to tell us > to continue or lay off as this discussion if continues may go out of > the place.We may continue this discussion somewhere else or in > private. Permission is sought. > > Regards > > Yours Truly, > Acharya Vasudev > http://www.acharyavasudev.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Well spoken, Wendyji! > PS: > >>He was who he was because THAT was his karma.<< And each of us have to discover our own karma, Jyotish is a powerful tool to guide us; a navigational aid in the murky waters of time, swirling around us. regards rishi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Dear Acharya Vasudev, >>P.S.:- I think this is the right time for the moderator to tell >>us to continue or lay off as this discussion if continues may go out of the place.We may continue this discussion somewhere else or in private. Permission is sought.<< There's no problem :-) Sean (obviously) has his doubts regarding the all-encompassing nature of karma...the only way he will ever be able to see this (himself) is by making a serious effort to study as many charts as he can...if this is his karma he will do so, if not, then so be it..."knowledge" is the only thing that will convince. 'Free-will' (self-effort, desires, initiative), seen from 3rd house, is misinterpreted by most, as is the source and quality of our 'confidence & belief' (seen from 4th house). Novices in astrology often conclude that we have the 'free-will' to decide our own destiny...this belief that the 'small-self'' (ego) is in control, is in fact a separation from the divine will... To realise fully that we are the personification of the universe, manifested within us at the time of birth, is in itself an 'Awakening' to our divinity. To become a passive witness to the unfoldment of (our karma), rather than egotistically trying to manipulate it, is an awakening to our divinity! We separate ourselves from our divinity by not understanding that "Free-Will" is actually "Divine Will". Even Christ could not escape his karma and when the time drew near for his crucifixion he experienced the torment of separation when 'human ego' appears separated from "divine will (inner self)"...the torment of humanity! and he cried out; "Lord, let this cup pass from me..." There are many paths to 'realisation'... Jyotish is one (Gnana Yoga, the path of knowledge). Paramahansa's path was Kriya Yoga...there are many paths :-)) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "V. Vasudev Acharya" <acharya.vasudev <jyotish-vidya> Friday, November 18, 2005 9:31 AM Re: Free will and destiny Dear Sean, Greetings! So your reasoning is, "maybe no karmas are actually fixed to the point where it not possible to lessen their effect." but using same logic I must be allowed to say that.. " May be all karmas are actually fixed to the point where it is not possible to alter their effect completely." You are of the opinion that the Free Will is ultimate and man's freedom is final and immediete. and this is based on the teachings of the sages and saints.You quote Paramhansa Yogananda for making us to understand this. I am sorry so say that you are infact quoting Paramhansa to contradict your own opinion and understaning of free will. Paramhansa is saying that there are two forces which are more formidable then planetary influence. One is the faith in Divine Protection and The second is the right use of God-given free will. I wonder whether it can be called free will as it is given to man by somebody other then the man himself.If it is given, then principally it can be taken back also. Really strange if we are calling it free will. and moreover the quote seems contradictory to ordinary man like me. Please guide me by eleborating that why this free will is not enough to nullify the effects of karmas and why we need the faith in Divine protection also apart from the free will. And also tell me whether having faith in Divine protection and exercising free will are in itself a kind of karma or not ? Regards Yours Truly, Acharya Vasudev http://www.acharyavasudev.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.