Guest guest Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Dear All, As we all know, the charts of twins born relatively close together and having same birth chart, and even majority of divisionals without significant variation, has teased the minds of astrologers for as long as this Vidya has been known... I recall (on the old group) this topic was discussed at some length and I put forward the same notion, in relation to a chart we were discussing at the time, that I'm confident now goes a long way in solving the puzzle. There are, I believe, several considerations in such births which explains why twins (and others) with identical charts do not lead completely identical lives. We've all heard of the "Chaos Theory"...how just the flapping of a butterfly's wing can change a predicted weather pattern. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html In the same way minute changes in the finer dasa periods (for instance) can alter predictable events. This question has been on my mind sufficiently the last couple of days for me to (finally) write an article on my findings. As some of our older members may remember I have twin grandchildren born just a few minutes apart with identical charts, including navamsha. Yet one has just been blessed with a child whilst the other has not...the answer to this has to be visible, and I believe it is... I'm writing the article on JyotishVidya.com and will post it here for discussion when finished...hopefully by tomorrow, depending on my energy level which is flagging a little at the moment I'm afraid...but tomorrow's a new day :-) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Unfortunately, with many distractions, I've not been able to make any progress on this today... But will post it to group when I do manage to find enough time to complete it. _____________________________ - "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish <jyotish-vidya> Monday, November 07, 2005 10:04 PM Birth of Twins Dear All, As we all know, the charts of twins born relatively close together and having same birth chart, and even majority of divisionals without significant variation, has teased the minds of astrologers for as long as this Vidya has been known... I recall (on the old group) this topic was discussed at some length and I put forward the same notion, in relation to a chart we were discussing at the time, that I'm confident now goes a long way in solving the puzzle. There are, I believe, several considerations in such births which explains why twins (and others) with identical charts do not lead completely identical lives. We've all heard of the "Chaos Theory"...how just the flapping of a butterfly's wing can change a predicted weather pattern. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html In the same way minute changes in the finer dasa periods (for instance) can alter predictable events. This question has been on my mind sufficiently the last couple of days for me to (finally) write an article on my findings. As some of our older members may remember I have twin grandchildren born just a few minutes apart with identical charts, including navamsha. Yet one has just been blessed with a child whilst the other has not...the answer to this has to be visible, and I believe it is... I'm writing the article on JyotishVidya.com and will post it here for discussion when finished...hopefully by tomorrow, depending on my energy level which is flagging a little at the moment I'm afraid...but tomorrow's a new day :-) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 -- Dear Wendy, Thanks a lot for taking up this very difficult topic. Looking forward to your post on this, as you know, I have a personal interest in the topic. Regards, Neena - In jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@o...> wrote: > > Unfortunately, with many distractions, I've not been able to make > any progress on this today... But will post it to group when I do > manage to find enough time to complete it. > _____________________________ > > - > "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@o...> > <jyotish-vidya> > Monday, November 07, 2005 10:04 PM > Birth of Twins > > > Dear All, > > As we all know, the charts of twins born relatively close together > and having same birth chart, and even majority of divisionals > without significant variation, has teased the minds of astrologers > for as long as this Vidya has been known... > > I recall (on the old group) this topic was discussed at some length > and I put forward the same notion, in relation to a chart we were > discussing at the time, that I'm confident now goes a long way in > solving the puzzle. > > There are, I believe, several considerations in such births which > explains why twins (and others) with identical charts do not lead > completely identical lives. We've all heard of the "Chaos > Theory"...how just the flapping of a butterfly's wing can change a > predicted weather pattern. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html > > In the same way minute changes in the finer dasa periods (for > instance) can alter predictable events. This question has been on my > mind sufficiently the last couple of days for me to (finally) write > an article on my findings. > > As some of our older members may remember I have twin grandchildren > born just a few minutes apart with identical charts, including > navamsha. Yet one has just been blessed with a child whilst the > other has not...the answer to this has to be visible, and I believe > it is... > > I'm writing the article on JyotishVidya.com and will post it here > for discussion when finished...hopefully by tomorrow, depending on > my energy level which is flagging a little at the moment I'm > afraid...but tomorrow's a new day :-) > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ______________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Dear All, Just a quick announcement that the article is "up". For those interested it can be viewed at: http://jyotishvidya.com/twins.htm __ - "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish <jyotish-vidya> Tuesday, November 08, 2005 5:27 PM Re: Birth of Twins Unfortunately, with many distractions, I've not been able to make any progress on this today... But will post it to group when I do manage to find enough time to complete it. _____________________________ - "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish <jyotish-vidya> Monday, November 07, 2005 10:04 PM Birth of Twins Dear All, As we all know, the charts of twins born relatively close together and having same birth chart, and even majority of divisionals without significant variation, has teased the minds of astrologers for as long as this Vidya has been known... I recall (on the old group) this topic was discussed at some length and I put forward the same notion, in relation to a chart we were discussing at the time, that I'm confident now goes a long way in solving the puzzle. There are, I believe, several considerations in such births which explains why twins (and others) with identical charts do not lead completely identical lives. We've all heard of the "Chaos Theory"...how just the flapping of a butterfly's wing can change a predicted weather pattern. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html In the same way minute changes in the finer dasa periods (for instance) can alter predictable events. This question has been on my mind sufficiently the last couple of days for me to (finally) write an article on my findings. As some of our older members may remember I have twin grandchildren born just a few minutes apart with identical charts, including navamsha. Yet one has just been blessed with a child whilst the other has not...the answer to this has to be visible, and I believe it is... I'm writing the article on JyotishVidya.com and will post it here for discussion when finished...hopefully by tomorrow, depending on my energy level which is flagging a little at the moment I'm afraid...but tomorrow's a new day :-) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Namaste I am a novice at best when it comes to astrology and I thank Wendy for setting up this discussion group as well as creating a great reference website. I read the article on the website and would like to share my thoughts. I was surprised to find that the article focused on the "shookshmantar dasa" as the reason for the difference in the life events of twins. I would have thought this would be low on the list of things that would account for the difference. I would of thought that the most obvious reason for the difference would be that it is not merely the influence of planets that guide our lives. The decisions we make and the actions we take in this life shape our future as much as the karmas that we we born with. It is more than conceivable to me that after 20+ years of living, even twins may have very different lives. >From what I understand very few karmas are fixed and I think that is why astrology can tell us when the planetary arrangements are either favorable or unfavorable for the birth of a child, but may not be able to tell us whether or not a child will actually be born unless there is a very high degree of confluence found. And I believe that even when conditions are unfavorable according to the placement of planets, it is still possible to have a child -- there may be more obstacles, but it is still possible if the will is there. I would think that in the example provided in the article that if both of the twins wanted to have a child and had been focusing their will on having a child then the favorable period mentioned in the article would have brought a child for both. Also, in this case I would have thought to look in other places for confluence before looking at the shookshmantar dasa. In the specific case of child birth, why not look at the charts of both parents? I would think that if both parents are in favorable dasas with favorable transits then it is more likely that a child will be born. The difference in the charts of the twins' spouses may go a long way when using astrology to explain why one twin had a child and the other didn't. The article pointed out that there is a one significator for elder sibling and a different one for younger sibling, and so that creates a very different view when looking at one twin from the other's chart. So why not look at each twin from both charts and see if there is confluence that indicates one having a child and not the other? That would be basically looking at the condition of the 5th house from the significator, right? Reading the article also created other questions for me regarding dasas: Using this example, is Jup-Rah-Jup really more favorable then say Jup- Jup-Rah? If so why? Or why wouldn't Jup-Rah-Mer be more favorable since the influence of Mercury seemed to make such a difference according the article? Regards, Sean jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@o...> wrote: > > Dear All, > Just a quick announcement that the article is "up". For those > interested it can be viewed at: http://jyotishvidya.com/twins.htm > __ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Hello Sean, Over the years the chart of George W. Bush has been rectified by numerous (experienced) astrologers and, putting faith in their ability, I put forward my comments on his chart back in 2001. I used the sookshmantar dasa then to confirm the tragic events of 9/11. http://jyotishvidya.com/bush.htm But, as I've said many times, we all look at a chart through our own eyes...everyone's vision is different, and even different at different times! We're all free to make up our own minds. However there can be no doubt that the finer dasas have an important role...the sages would not have given them otherwise. You talk of how the decisions we make and the actions we take shape our lives...you're absolutely correct! But where do those decisions spring from? Perhaps you'd like to think about that and offer your opinion to the group :-) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean <jyotish-vidya> Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:24 PM Re: Birth of Twins Namaste I am a novice at best when it comes to astrology and I thank Wendy for setting up this discussion group as well as creating a great reference website. I read the article on the website and would like to share my thoughts. I was surprised to find that the article focused on the "shookshmantar dasa" as the reason for the difference in the life events of twins. I would have thought this would be low on the list of things that would account for the difference. I would of thought that the most obvious reason for the difference would be that it is not merely the influence of planets that guide our lives. The decisions we make and the actions we take in this life shape our future as much as the karmas that we we born with. It is more than conceivable to me that after 20+ years of living, even twins may have very different lives. >From what I understand very few karmas are fixed and I think that is why astrology can tell us when the planetary arrangements are either favorable or unfavorable for the birth of a child, but may not be able to tell us whether or not a child will actually be born unless there is a very high degree of confluence found. And I believe that even when conditions are unfavorable according to the placement of planets, it is still possible to have a child -- there may be more obstacles, but it is still possible if the will is there. I would think that in the example provided in the article that if both of the twins wanted to have a child and had been focusing their will on having a child then the favorable period mentioned in the article would have brought a child for both. Also, in this case I would have thought to look in other places for confluence before looking at the shookshmantar dasa. In the specific case of child birth, why not look at the charts of both parents? I would think that if both parents are in favorable dasas with favorable transits then it is more likely that a child will be born. The difference in the charts of the twins' spouses may go a long way when using astrology to explain why one twin had a child and the other didn't. The article pointed out that there is a one significator for elder sibling and a different one for younger sibling, and so that creates a very different view when looking at one twin from the other's chart. So why not look at each twin from both charts and see if there is confluence that indicates one having a child and not the other? That would be basically looking at the condition of the 5th house from the significator, right? Reading the article also created other questions for me regarding dasas: Using this example, is Jup-Rah-Jup really more favorable then say Jup- Jup-Rah? If so why? Or why wouldn't Jup-Rah-Mer be more favorable since the influence of Mercury seemed to make such a difference according the article? Regards, Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Namaste Wendy, thank you for your response. Although, you didn't answer some of the questions I posed - I'd appreciate a response if you're willing and time permits. To answer your question: > You talk of how the decisions we make and the actions we take shape > our lives...you're absolutely correct! But where do those decisions > spring from? That is a question not unlike the chicken/egg question. Here is my response: In my opinion one either acts (makes decisions) according to one's karma (i.e. instinct, desire, habit) or according to truth and if we are to overcome the cycle of karma then it is necessary to act according to truth. By truth I mean that which is not changeable and not dependent on anything else, that which all else is dependent on. In us I consider it to be similiar to what we call our conscience, but maybe a better term is the "higher self". I gather from your question that your opinion is that we always decide according the planetary influence (i.e. karma) and our every move is ultimately governed by the planets and therefor all of our life events can be seen by the planets? But certainly that can't be the case-- how do explain Yagyas then? I look at Yagyas to be using self-effort to overcome karma; an example of our actions in this life causing a benefic influence in this life. I certainly believe that planetary positions reflect the circumstances that we are given, however I don't believe that the planets dictate how we react or not react to those circumstances. And I believe that "when there is will there is a way", regardless of the planetary influence (perhaps unless the karma is fixed which seems to be pretty rare). On your website you quote from _Autobiography of a Yogi_. In that book Paramahansa Yogananda described how he enjoyed starting endeavors during times that were considered highly unfavorable according to Jyotish and yet he still completed what he set out to do -- showing the power of will can overcome the unfavorable planetary arrangement. Paramhansa Yogananda had the marriage karma. Sure enough, when the planetary cycle and transits that supported marriage came around he found his circumstances to be pushing him towards marriage. But did he get married? No, he didn't because ultimately it was not his will. I personally believe that it is a mistake to think that we do not have any power over the outcome of our life. I certainly do not believe we are solely at the mercy of our planetary arrangement as given at birth. I find Jyotish to be a great tool: certainly the planets provide us with a clue as to what our challenges/blessings are and when those are likely to show themselves; and we may use what we learn from Jyotish to help mollify or increase them, but how we receive them, how we react is ultimately up to us. That is how it is possible to "move onward and upward". If that weren't the case then we would just be repeating the same cycle over and over again. And in my opinion the study of Jyotish itself can be an obstacle if it is used by us as an excuse to act according to karma or as a reason not to exert our will, or as a distraction from our duties. It is always possible to improve our lot in life by self- effort. And that is how those who have "favorable" planetary combinations in their birth chart got them in the first place. Sure the planets may indicate good or bad qualities and karmas that a person has, but it not because of the planets that they have those qualities or karmas in the first place. As quoted from _Autobiography_ on your website "a child is born on that day and that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical harmony with his individual karma." No doubt that is true, but do not forget how that karma came to be in the first place -- i.e. one's actions during previous life(s). One can't change his birth chart (a result of one's previous actions), but one can change one's actions and one's reactions to the circumstances one is given in this life and thereby untimately determine one's own destiny. Regards, Sean jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@o...> wrote: > > Hello Sean, > > Over the years the chart of George W. Bush has been rectified by > numerous (experienced) astrologers and, putting faith in their > ability, I put forward my comments on his chart back in 2001. I used > the sookshmantar dasa then to confirm the tragic events of 9/11. > http://jyotishvidya.com/bush.htm > > But, as I've said many times, we all look at a chart through our own > eyes...everyone's vision is different, and even different at > different times! > We're all free to make up our own minds. However there can be no > doubt that the finer dasas have an important role...the sages would > not have given them otherwise. > > You talk of how the decisions we make and the actions we take shape > our lives...you're absolutely correct! But where do those decisions > spring from? Perhaps you'd like to think about that and offer your > opinion to the group :-) > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ______________________________ > > - > "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean> > <jyotish-vidya> > Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:24 PM > Re: Birth of Twins > > > Namaste > > I am a novice at best when it comes to astrology and I thank Wendy > for > setting up this discussion group as well as creating a great > reference > website. > > I read the article on the website and would like to share my > thoughts. > > I was surprised to find that the article focused on the > "shookshmantar > dasa" as the reason for the difference in the life events of twins. > I > would have thought this would be low on the list of things that > would > account for the difference. > > I would of thought that the most obvious reason for the difference > would be that it is not merely the influence of planets that guide > our > lives. The decisions we make and the actions we take in this life > shape our future as much as the karmas that we we born with. It is > more than conceivable to me that after 20+ years of living, even > twins > may have very different lives. > > From what I understand very few karmas are fixed and I think that is > why astrology can tell us when the planetary arrangements are either > favorable or unfavorable for the birth of a child, but may not be > able > to tell us whether or not a child will actually be born unless there > is > a very high degree of confluence found. And I believe that even > when > conditions are unfavorable according to the placement of planets, it > is > still possible to have a child -- there may be more obstacles, but > it > is still possible if the will is there. > > I would think that in the example provided in the article that if > both > of the twins wanted to have a child and had been focusing their will > on > having a child then the favorable period mentioned in the article > would > have brought a child for both. > > Also, in this case I would have thought to look in other places for > confluence before looking at the shookshmantar dasa. > > In the specific case of child birth, why not look at the charts of > both > parents? I would think that if both parents are in favorable dasas > with favorable transits then it is more likely that a child will be > born. The difference in the charts of the twins' spouses may go a > long > way when using astrology to explain why one twin had a child and the > other didn't. > > The article pointed out that there is a one significator for elder > sibling and a different one for younger sibling, and so that creates > a > very different view when looking at one twin from the other's chart. > So why not look at each twin from both charts and see if there is > confluence that indicates one having a child and not the other? > That > would be basically looking at the condition of the 5th house from > the > significator, right? > > Reading the article also created other questions for me regarding > dasas: > > Using this example, is Jup-Rah-Jup really more favorable then say > Jup- > Jup-Rah? If so why? Or why wouldn't Jup-Rah-Mer be more favorable > since the influence of Mercury seemed to make such a difference > according the article? > > Regards, > Sean > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Dear Sean MY REPLY GIVEN IN HIGHER-CASE FOR EASE OF READING. You Wrote: > You talk of how the decisions we make and the actions we take > shape > our lives...you're absolutely correct! But where do those > decisions > spring from? That is a question not unlike the chicken/egg question. OF COURSE IT'S NOT! THE ANSWER IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF JYOTISH. Here is my response: In my opinion one either acts (makes decisions) according to one's karma (i.e. instinct, desire, habit) or according to truth and if we are to overcome the cycle of karma then it is necessary to act according to truth. By truth I mean that which is not changeable and not dependent on anything else, that which all else is dependent on. In us I consider it to be similiar to what we call our conscience, but maybe a better term is the "higher self". THE 'HIGHER SELF' (WITHIN US ALL) REMAINS UNDISTURBED BY KARMA...'CONSCIENCE' IS ONE OF THE ATTRIBUTES OF JUPITER. I gather from your question that your opinion is that we always decide according the planetary influence (i.e. karma) and our every move is ultimately governed by the planets and therefor all of our life events can be seen by the planets? But certainly that can't be the case-- how do explain Yagyas then? I look at Yagyas to be using self-effort to overcome karma; an example of our actions in this life causing a benefic influence in this life. IF ALL THAT WAS REQUIRED WAS SELF-EFFORT THEN WHY THE NEED OF YAGYAS?? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE UNDERLYING PRINCPLE OF YAGYA? I certainly believe that planetary positions reflect the circumstances that we are given, however I don't believe that the planets dictate how we react or not react to those circumstances. And I believe that "when there is will there is a way", regardless of the planetary influence (perhaps unless the karma is fixed which seems to be pretty rare). A LOT OF 'BELIEFS' HERE! WHERE DO THESE BELIEFS COME FROM...IT CANNOT BE FROM EXPERIENCE IF, AS YOU SAY, YOU'RE A NOVICE AT BEST. On your website you quote from _Autobiography of a Yogi_. In that book Paramahansa Yogananda described how he enjoyed starting endeavors during times that were considered highly unfavorable according to Jyotish and yet he still completed what he set out to do -- showing the power of will can overcome the unfavorable planetary arrangement. Paramhansa Yogananda had the marriage karma. Sure enough, when the planetary cycle and transits that supported marriage came around he found his circumstances to be pushing him towards marriage. But did he get married? No, he didn't because ultimately it was not his will. THIS 'COLDNESS' TOWARDS MARRIAGE CAN BE SEEN FROM HIS HOROSCOPE. THE GREATEST ATTACHEMENT FOR HIM WAS MOTHER (BOTH EARTHLY AND DIVINE). THIS WAS WHERE HE PLACED HIS GREATEST LOVE AND AFFECTION...PERHAPS YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS HIS CHART IN DEPTH :-) I personally believe that it is a mistake to think that we do not have any power over the outcome of our life. I certainly do not believe we are solely at the mercy of our planetary arrangement as given at birth. I find Jyotish to be a great tool: certainly the planets provide us with a clue as to what our challenges/blessings are and when those are likely to show themselves; OUR KARMA WILL UNFOLD IN SPITE OF OUR BEST EFFORTS TO CHANGE IT...THIS IS FACT!! and we may use what we learn from Jyotish to help mollify or increase them, but how we receive them, how we react is ultimately up to us. YOU TELL THAT TO A NATIVE WITH BADLY AFFLICTED MOON. That is how it is possible to "move onward and upward". If that weren't the case then we would just be repeating the same cycle over and over again. HEREIN LIES THE GREAT VALUE OF RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION. WHEN PEOPLE ABIDE BY THE BASIC PRICIPLES OF "RIGHT ACTION", AS LAID OUT IN ALL RELIGIOUS TREATISES, THEY'RE CREATING BENEFICIAL CIRCUMSTANCES (FOR NEXT LIFE) WHERE THEY MAY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE ONWARD AND UPWARD. IF SOMEONE STRIVES FOR THAT IN THIS LIFE YOU CAN BE CERTAIN THE CONDITIONS ARE PRESENT IN THIS LIFE'S KARMIC PATTERN AS A RESULT OF POORVAPUNYA (PAST ACTIONS). And in my opinion the study of Jyotish itself can be an obstacle if it is used by us as an excuse to act according to karma or as a reason not to exert our will, or as a distraction from our duties. NO RIGHT-MINDED JYOTISHA WOULD BE SO UNWISE AS THIS. It is always possible to improve our lot in life by self- effort. And that is how those who have "favorable" planetary combinations in their birth chart got them in the first place. Sure the planets may indicate good or bad qualities and karmas that a person has, but it not because of the planets that they have those qualities or karmas in the first place. WELL, I THINK I'VE POSSIBLY ANSWERED THIS (SEE ABOVE). As quoted from _Autobiography_ on your website "a child is born on that day and that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical harmony with his individual karma." No doubt that is true, but do not forget how that karma came to be in the first place -- i.e. one's actions during previous life(s). One can't change his birth chart (a result of one's previous actions), but one can change one's actions and one's reactions to the circumstances one is given in this life and thereby untimately determine one's own destiny. HMMMM... Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Namaste Wendy, thank you for your reply. I added more comments (I inserted them in our discussion - see below). I'm not sure I'll be able to continue this discussion for awhile -- I didn't expect to have such a big discussion and I wrote so much already that I'm not sure I'd have any more to add anyway However, I'll be sure to look for your response, if any. And I'll especially look for any responses to the questions I had orginally posed about the dasas -- input from any of the members would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, Wendy. Namaste Sean jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@o...> wrote: > > Dear Sean > > MY REPLY GIVEN IN HIGHER-CASE FOR EASE OF READING. > > You Wrote: > > You talk of how the decisions we make and the actions we take > > shape > our lives...you're absolutely correct! But where do those > > decisions > > spring from? > > That is a question not unlike the chicken/egg question. > > OF COURSE IT'S NOT! THE ANSWER IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF > JYOTISH. I agree it is not the same question, but let me explain where that comment came from: if looking at the span of all lifetimes with each life having a outline of the karmas due to the results of the actions done in previous births (birth chart) then one can begin to wonder what was the first birth chart was like and what was the planetary placements based on? I.E. is it the birth chart that gives rise to the decisions or was it one's decisions that first gave rise to the particulars of the birth chart. (This is where the question is like which came first the chicken or the egg) To me what makes sense is that it is the decisions that we make that first gave rise to the particulars of the birth chart. And the birth chart represents one's inclinations (karmas) based one's previous decisions; but it is not the planetary placement that governs the decisions we make. The stronger the inclination (karma) as indicated the birth chart the more likely one's decision is going to aligned with that tendency, but, as I said, I believe there is still a possibility to overcome the tendency and act differently. > > Here is my response: > In my opinion one either acts (makes decisions) according to one's > karma (i.e. instinct, desire, habit) or according to truth and if we > are to overcome the cycle of karma then it is necessary to act > according to truth. By truth I mean that which is not changeable > and > not dependent on anything else, that which all else is dependent on. > In us I consider it to be similiar to what we call our conscience, > but maybe a better term is the "higher self". > > THE 'HIGHER SELF' (WITHIN US ALL) REMAINS UNDISTURBED BY > KARMA...'CONSCIENCE' IS ONE OF THE ATTRIBUTES OF JUPITER. > > I gather from your question that your opinion is that we always > decide according the planetary influence (i.e. karma) and our every > move is ultimately governed by the planets and therefor all of our > life events can be seen by the planets? But certainly that can't be > the case-- how do explain Yagyas then? I look at Yagyas to be using > self-effort to overcome karma; an example of our actions in this > life causing a benefic influence in this life. > > IF ALL THAT WAS REQUIRED WAS SELF-EFFORT THEN WHY THE NEED OF > YAGYAS?? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE UNDERLYING PRINCPLE OF YAGYA? As I said, I look at Yagyas as an example of how self-effort in this life can create benefic influence in this life. I am not sure what you are referring to by the underlying principle, but I would say that underlying principle of a Yagya is sacrifice which is an exercise of both will and self-effort. > > I certainly believe that planetary positions reflect the > circumstances that we are given, however I don't believe that the > planets dictate how we react or not react to those circumstances. > And I believe that "when there is will there is a way", regardless > of > the planetary influence (perhaps unless the karma is fixed which > seems to be pretty rare). > > A LOT OF 'BELIEFS' HERE! WHERE DO THESE BELIEFS COME FROM...IT > CANNOT BE FROM EXPERIENCE IF, AS YOU SAY, YOU'RE A NOVICE AT BEST. My beliefs come from what makes sense to me and what 'feels' true. Of course, my experiences have helped to shape what I believe. Whether we are a novice or an expert, we all have some experience to drawn upon. And I may be new to Jyotish, but I am not new to spiritual study, including the concept of karma. The questions I pose and comments I make are part of the process of reconciling what I have learned with the principles of Jyotish. > > On your website you quote from _Autobiography of a Yogi_. In that > book Paramahansa Yogananda described how he enjoyed starting > endeavors during times that were considered highly unfavorable > according to Jyotish and yet he still completed what he set out to > do -- showing the power of will can overcome the unfavorable > planetary arrangement. Paramhansa Yogananda had the marriage karma. > Sure enough, when the planetary cycle and transits that supported > marriage came around he found his circumstances to be pushing him > towards marriage. But did he get married? No, he didn't because > ultimately it was not his will. > > THIS 'COLDNESS' TOWARDS MARRIAGE CAN BE SEEN FROM HIS HOROSCOPE. THE > GREATEST ATTACHEMENT FOR HIM WAS MOTHER (BOTH EARTHLY AND DIVINE). > THIS WAS WHERE HE PLACED HIS GREATEST LOVE AND AFFECTION...PERHAPS > YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS HIS CHART IN DEPTH :-) No, I am sure I would get lost in all the terminology. But a large part of the teaching of Paramahansa Yogananda is to illuminate the power of one's will to overcome life's obstacles (karmas). > > I personally believe that it is a mistake to think that we do not > have any power over the outcome of our life. I certainly do not > believe we are solely at the mercy of our planetary arrangement as > given at birth. I find Jyotish to be a great tool: certainly the > planets provide us with a clue as to what our challenges/blessings > are and when those are likely to show themselves; > > OUR KARMA WILL UNFOLD IN SPITE OF OUR BEST EFFORTS TO CHANGE > IT...THIS IS FACT!! Would you say that how the karma unfolds and whether or not there will be a perpetuation of the karma IS up to us? I would and do say that. > > and we may use what we learn from Jyotish to help mollify or > increase them, but how we > receive them, how we react is ultimately up to us. > > YOU TELL THAT TO A NATIVE WITH BADLY AFFLICTED MOON. > > That is how it is possible to "move onward and upward". If that > weren't the case then we would just be repeating the same cycle over > and over again. > > HEREIN LIES THE GREAT VALUE OF RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION. WHEN PEOPLE > ABIDE BY THE BASIC PRICIPLES OF "RIGHT ACTION", AS LAID OUT IN ALL > RELIGIOUS TREATISES, THEY'RE CREATING BENEFICIAL CIRCUMSTANCES (FOR > NEXT LIFE) WHERE THEY MAY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE ONWARD AND > UPWARD. That makes sense to me to, but I'd add that it possible to have an affect on this current life as well. > > IF SOMEONE STRIVES FOR THAT IN THIS LIFE YOU CAN BE CERTAIN THE > CONDITIONS ARE PRESENT IN THIS LIFE'S KARMIC PATTERN AS A RESULT OF > POORVAPUNYA (PAST ACTIONS). It makes sense that if someone had been cultivating themselves according to a religion in the past life then the tendency would be there to do so again in this life, and such tendency would be indicated in the chart. But I would also say that even if the tendency is not there from a previous life it would still be possible for that person to cultivate their spirituality in this life -- it makes sense that it may take some will power to get started and greater self-effort to continue, like it would for anyone who decides to take up something new. But surely every moment can be a turning point - we have to start somewhere (even if we have an afflicted Moon ;^). > > And in my opinion the study of Jyotish itself can be > an obstacle if it is used by us as an excuse to act according to > karma or as a reason not to exert our will, or as a distraction from > our duties. > > NO RIGHT-MINDED JYOTISHA WOULD BE SO UNWISE AS THIS. > > It is always possible to improve our lot in life by self- > effort. And that is how those who have "favorable" planetary > combinations in their birth chart got them in the first place. Sure > the planets may indicate good or bad qualities and karmas that a > person has, but it not because of the planets that they have those > qualities or karmas in the first place. > > WELL, I THINK I'VE POSSIBLY ANSWERED THIS (SEE ABOVE). > > As quoted from _Autobiography_ on your website "a child is born on > that day and that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical > harmony with his individual karma." No doubt that is true, but do > not forget how that karma came to be in the first place -- i.e. > one's > actions during previous life(s). One can't change his birth chart > (a > result of one's previous actions), but one can change one's actions > and one's reactions to the circumstances one is given in this life > and thereby untimately determine one's own destiny. > > HMMMM... > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ______________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Dear Mrs Wendy,Sean and other respected members, Wendyji - logged in late - hope your husband has a fast and stress free recovery. The discussion regarding own will and karma made an interesting reading. I feel without doubt that destiny or fate will always overrule our efforts and astrology is the way which can enlighten what is written in our fate There is this story of varahamihira (the great astrologer) who had predicted the king's sons death from a pig- was incarcerated for making such a prediction.The child was kept is save wooden box coverred with the softest blankets.The box was raised above ground by few meters with the help of a wodden column and the room where this box was placed was guarded for 24 hours, how would a pig ever enter such a room? But alas the column colapsed for reasons unknown and wodden box broke under the heavy weight of the column,the child was killed due to the column over it. The column had a design of varaha (pig) on it.The royal carpenter had no idea of the predictions and as was in vogue ,had etched out a figure of pig on the column.So all the efforts of the king were in vain. Personally as well - I had my first cousin who died of breast cancer at an age of 35-36 inspite of having a masters in pharmacology, and the fact that the best medical facilities were available to her,living and settled in the US /Atlanta. When growing up as kids in Bombay she always took utmost care of not eating outside food for avoiding infection - just to say that she was not the one who would have neglected routine checkups or any treatment. Best Regards Nilesh jyotish-vidya, "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean> wrote: > > Namaste > > Wendy, thank you for your reply. I added more comments (I inserted > them in our discussion - see below). I'm not sure I'll be able to > continue this discussion for awhile -- I didn't expect to have such a > big discussion and I wrote so much already that I'm not sure I'd have > any more to add anyway However, I'll be sure to look for your > response, if any. > > And I'll especially look for any responses to the questions I had > orginally posed about the dasas -- input from any of the members > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks again, Wendy. > > Namaste > Sean > > jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@o...> > wrote: > > > > Dear Sean > > > > MY REPLY GIVEN IN HIGHER-CASE FOR EASE OF READING. > > > > You Wrote: > > > You talk of how the decisions we make and the actions we take > > > shape > our lives...you're absolutely correct! But where do those > > > decisions > > > spring from? > > > > That is a question not unlike the chicken/egg question. > > > > OF COURSE IT'S NOT! THE ANSWER IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF > > JYOTISH. > > I agree it is not the same question, but let me explain where that > comment came from: if looking at the span of all lifetimes with each > life having a outline of the karmas due to the results of the actions > done in previous births (birth chart) then one can begin to wonder > what was the first birth chart was like and what was the planetary > placements based on? I.E. is it the birth chart that gives rise to > the decisions or was it one's decisions that first gave rise to the > particulars of the birth chart. (This is where the question is like > which came first the chicken or the egg) > > To me what makes sense is that it is the decisions that we make that > first gave rise to the particulars of the birth chart. And the birth > chart represents one's inclinations (karmas) based one's previous > decisions; but it is not the planetary placement that governs the > decisions we make. The stronger the inclination (karma) as indicated > the birth chart the more likely one's decision is going to aligned > with that tendency, but, as I said, I believe there is still a > possibility to overcome the tendency and act differently. > > > > > Here is my response: > > In my opinion one either acts (makes decisions) according to one's > > karma (i.e. instinct, desire, habit) or according to truth and if we > > are to overcome the cycle of karma then it is necessary to act > > according to truth. By truth I mean that which is not changeable > > and > > not dependent on anything else, that which all else is dependent on. > > In us I consider it to be similiar to what we call our conscience, > > but maybe a better term is the "higher self". > > > > THE 'HIGHER SELF' (WITHIN US ALL) REMAINS UNDISTURBED BY > > KARMA...'CONSCIENCE' IS ONE OF THE ATTRIBUTES OF JUPITER. > > > > I gather from your question that your opinion is that we always > > decide according the planetary influence (i.e. karma) and our every > > move is ultimately governed by the planets and therefor all of our > > life events can be seen by the planets? But certainly that can't be > > the case-- how do explain Yagyas then? I look at Yagyas to be using > > self-effort to overcome karma; an example of our actions in this > > life causing a benefic influence in this life. > > > > IF ALL THAT WAS REQUIRED WAS SELF-EFFORT THEN WHY THE NEED OF > > YAGYAS?? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE UNDERLYING PRINCPLE OF YAGYA? > > As I said, I look at Yagyas as an example of how self-effort in this > life can create benefic influence in this life. I am not sure what > you are referring to by the underlying principle, but I would say > that underlying principle of a Yagya is sacrifice which is an > exercise of both will and self-effort. > > > > > I certainly believe that planetary positions reflect the > > circumstances that we are given, however I don't believe that the > > planets dictate how we react or not react to those circumstances. > > And I believe that "when there is will there is a way", regardless > > of > > the planetary influence (perhaps unless the karma is fixed which > > seems to be pretty rare). > > > > A LOT OF 'BELIEFS' HERE! WHERE DO THESE BELIEFS COME FROM...IT > > CANNOT BE FROM EXPERIENCE IF, AS YOU SAY, YOU'RE A NOVICE AT BEST. > > My beliefs come from what makes sense to me and what 'feels' true. Of > course, my experiences have helped to shape what I believe. Whether > we are a novice or an expert, we all have some experience to drawn > upon. And I may be new to Jyotish, but I am not new to spiritual > study, including the concept of karma. The questions I pose and > comments I make are part of the process of reconciling what I have > learned with the principles of Jyotish. > > > > > On your website you quote from _Autobiography of a Yogi_. In that > > book Paramahansa Yogananda described how he enjoyed starting > > endeavors during times that were considered highly unfavorable > > according to Jyotish and yet he still completed what he set out to > > do -- showing the power of will can overcome the unfavorable > > planetary arrangement. Paramhansa Yogananda had the marriage karma. > > Sure enough, when the planetary cycle and transits that supported > > marriage came around he found his circumstances to be pushing him > > towards marriage. But did he get married? No, he didn't because > > ultimately it was not his will. > > > > THIS 'COLDNESS' TOWARDS MARRIAGE CAN BE SEEN FROM HIS HOROSCOPE. > THE > > GREATEST ATTACHEMENT FOR HIM WAS MOTHER (BOTH EARTHLY AND DIVINE). > > THIS WAS WHERE HE PLACED HIS GREATEST LOVE AND AFFECTION...PERHAPS > > YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS HIS CHART IN DEPTH :-) > > No, I am sure I would get lost in all the terminology. But a large > part of the teaching of Paramahansa Yogananda is to illuminate the > power of one's will to overcome life's obstacles (karmas). > > > > > I personally believe that it is a mistake to think that we do not > > have any power over the outcome of our life. I certainly do not > > believe we are solely at the mercy of our planetary arrangement as > > given at birth. I find Jyotish to be a great tool: certainly the > > planets provide us with a clue as to what our challenges/blessings > > are and when those are likely to show themselves; > > > > OUR KARMA WILL UNFOLD IN SPITE OF OUR BEST EFFORTS TO CHANGE > > IT...THIS IS FACT!! > > Would you say that how the karma unfolds and whether or not there > will be a perpetuation of the karma IS up to us? I would and do say > that. > > > > > and we may use what we learn from Jyotish to help mollify or > > increase them, but how we > > receive them, how we react is ultimately up to us. > > > > YOU TELL THAT TO A NATIVE WITH BADLY AFFLICTED MOON. > > > > That is how it is possible to "move onward and upward". If that > > weren't the case then we would just be repeating the same cycle over > > and over again. > > > > HEREIN LIES THE GREAT VALUE OF RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION. WHEN PEOPLE > > ABIDE BY THE BASIC PRICIPLES OF "RIGHT ACTION", AS LAID OUT IN ALL > > RELIGIOUS TREATISES, THEY'RE CREATING BENEFICIAL CIRCUMSTANCES (FOR > > NEXT LIFE) WHERE THEY MAY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE ONWARD AND > > UPWARD. > > That makes sense to me to, but I'd add that it possible to have an > affect on this current life as well. > > > > > IF SOMEONE STRIVES FOR THAT IN THIS LIFE YOU CAN BE CERTAIN THE > > CONDITIONS ARE PRESENT IN THIS LIFE'S KARMIC PATTERN AS A RESULT OF > > POORVAPUNYA (PAST ACTIONS). > > It makes sense that if someone had been cultivating themselves > according to a religion in the past life then the tendency would be > there to do so again in this life, and such tendency would be > indicated in the chart. But I would also say that even if the > tendency is not there from a previous life it would still be possible > for that person to cultivate their spirituality in this life -- it > makes sense that it may take some will power to get started and > greater self-effort to continue, like it would for anyone who decides > to take up something new. But surely every moment can be a turning > point - we have to start somewhere (even if we have an afflicted > Moon ;^). > > > > > And in my opinion the study of Jyotish itself can be > > an obstacle if it is used by us as an excuse to act according to > > karma or as a reason not to exert our will, or as a distraction from > > our duties. > > > > NO RIGHT-MINDED JYOTISHA WOULD BE SO UNWISE AS THIS. > > > > It is always possible to improve our lot in life by self- > > effort. And that is how those who have "favorable" planetary > > combinations in their birth chart got them in the first place. Sure > > the planets may indicate good or bad qualities and karmas that a > > person has, but it not because of the planets that they have those > > qualities or karmas in the first place. > > > > WELL, I THINK I'VE POSSIBLY ANSWERED THIS (SEE ABOVE). > > > > As quoted from _Autobiography_ on your website "a child is born on > > that day and that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical > > harmony with his individual karma." No doubt that is true, but do > > not forget how that karma came to be in the first place -- i.e. > > one's > > actions during previous life(s). One can't change his birth chart > > (a > > result of one's previous actions), but one can change one's actions > > and one's reactions to the circumstances one is given in this life > > and thereby untimately determine one's own destiny. > > > > HMMMM... > > > > Best Wishes, > > Mrs. Wendy > > http://JyotishVidya.com > > ______________________________ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Dear Nilesh, Sean and ALL, Yes, you're absolutely correct Nilesh! What is written will come to pass in spite of our best efforts to change it.. Because what is written (from above) is recorded in every molecule of every cell in our body (DNA?), and when the time is ripe for that to manifest it will do so. I understand what Sean is saying and there is some truth in the assumption that, although we cannot change the karma that is to come, we can change how we react to it. What needs to be understood however is that our ability to react positively or negatively is also written into our karmic code. A native with afflictions to bhavas/grahas associated with mind for instance will act pessimistically to almost any situation...even an Astrologer advising them to take care during a particular period can cause extreme anxiety as their tendency is towards worry (even for what has not, or may not happen). Those who shout loudly that we have the will (will-power) to determine our own destiny usually have a very powerful Mars or Saturn ruling or occupying 3rd house.. Strong (perhaps obstinate) beliefs can indicate the same sort of influence on 4th house for instance...but, whatever the reason for negativity or strong beliefs, it will be found in the horoscope. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Nilesh Joshi" <niljoshi27 <jyotish-vidya> Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:43 PM Re: Birth of Twins Dear Mrs Wendy,Sean and other respected members, Wendyji - logged in late - hope your husband has a fast and stress free recovery. The discussion regarding own will and karma made an interesting reading. I feel without doubt that destiny or fate will always overrule our efforts and astrology is the way which can enlighten what is written in our fate There is this story of varahamihira (the great astrologer) who had predicted the king's sons death from a pig- was incarcerated for making such a prediction.The child was kept is save wooden box coverred with the softest blankets.The box was raised above ground by few meters with the help of a wodden column and the room where this box was placed was guarded for 24 hours, how would a pig ever enter such a room? But alas the column colapsed for reasons unknown and wodden box broke under the heavy weight of the column,the child was killed due to the column over it. The column had a design of varaha (pig) on it.The royal carpenter had no idea of the predictions and as was in vogue ,had etched out a figure of pig on the column.So all the efforts of the king were in vain. Personally as well - I had my first cousin who died of breast cancer at an age of 35-36 inspite of having a masters in pharmacology, and the fact that the best medical facilities were available to her,living and settled in the US /Atlanta. When growing up as kids in Bombay she always took utmost care of not eating outside food for avoiding infection - just to say that she was not the one who would have neglected routine checkups or any treatment. Best Regards Nilesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Dear Sean, First let me say that the main thrust of the (Twins) article was that, although we can get away with fairly accurate birth times generally, in the case of twins (with identical horoscopes), time must be "spot on"...rectified when necessary by use of finer dasas. Where NO DIFFERENCE can be found in such charts we have to look at the finer dasas to see the fructifying of events. As an example; through a chance meeting a couple meet and their destiny together is born, they have a family and so forth. But, at that very moment of (that possible) chance meeting, a small variation in planetary influence can alter the outcome...this is not free-will that decides whether the person will go this way or that...it's the subtle influences of the planets operating at that particular time that determine the subtle variations in the lives of twins. I'm sorry you've found this hard to digest but perhaps, if you focus more on studying the principles of jyotish and applying them to as many charts as you can, your understanding might grow...I'm sure it will :-) The sages tell us that everyone is unique...this statement is undeniably true!! Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean <jyotish-vidya> Wednesday, November 16, 2005 9:35 AM Re: Birth of Twins Namaste Wendy, thank you for your reply. I added more comments (I inserted them in our discussion - see below). I'm not sure I'll be able to continue this discussion for awhile -- I didn't expect to have such a big discussion and I wrote so much already that I'm not sure I'd have any more to add anyway However, I'll be sure to look for your response, if any. And I'll especially look for any responses to the questions I had orginally posed about the dasas -- input from any of the members would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, Wendy. Namaste Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Dear Sean, LET ME TRY TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS, AGAIN IN UPPER-CASE FOR EASE OF READING. (PLEASE DON'T CONCLUDE THAT UPPER-CASE INFERS THAT I'M SHOUTING OR TRYING TO MAKE MY POINT STRONGER) YOU WROTE: I agree it is not the same question, but let me explain where that comment came from: if looking at the span of all lifetimes with each life having a outline of the karmas due to the results of the actions done in previous births (birth chart) then one can begin to wonder what was the first birth chart was like and what was the planetary placements based on? I.E. is it the birth chart that gives rise to the decisions or was it one's decisions that first gave rise to the particulars of the birth chart. (This is where the question is like which came first the chicken or the egg) EVERY RELIGION HAS ITS OWN EXPLANATION OF THE ORIGIN OF KARMA. IN CHRISTIANITY IT'S CALLED "THE ORIGINAL SIN" EXTRACT FROM DOUEY RHEIMS BIBLE: 16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: 17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death. 18 And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone: let us make him a help like unto himself. 19 And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name. 20 And Adam called all the beasts by their names, and all the fowls of the air, and all the cattle of the field: but for Adam there was not found a helper like himself. 21 Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam: and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it. 22 And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam. 23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. 24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. 25 And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed. 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? 2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons. 8 And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise. 9 And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou? 10 And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself. 7 "And the eyes"... Not that they were blind before, (for the woman saw that the tree was fair to the eyes, ver. 6.) nor yet that their eyes were opened to any more perfect knowledge of good; but only to the unhappy experience of having lost the good of original grace and innocence, and incurred the dreadful evil of sin. From whence followed a shame of their being naked; which they minded not before; because being now stript of original grace, they quickly began to be subject to the shameful rebellions of the flesh. 11 And he said to him: And who hath told thee that thou wast naked, but that thou hast eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat? 12 And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat. 14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. SO, YOU GET THE POINT (I HOPE).. ORIGINAL SIN OR ORIGINAL KARMA IS, I SHOULD IMAGINE, SPOKEN OF IN ALL RELIGIOUS TREATISES...ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. BUT LET'S NOT FORGET THIS IS A DISCUSSION GROUP DEDICATED TO UNDERSTANDING INDIVIDUAL KARMA AS SEEN HOROSCOPE... WE SHOULDN'T FOCUS TOO MUCH ON PHILOSOPHY. I'M SURE THERE ARE MANY GROUPS DEDICATED SOLELY TO THE DISCUSSION OF PHILOSOPHY AND RELIGION. YOU WROTE: To me what makes sense is that it is the decisions that we make that first gave rise to the particulars of the birth chart. And the birth chart represents one's inclinations (karmas) based one's previous decisions; but it is not the planetary placement that governs the decisions we make. The stronger the inclination (karma) as indicated the birth chart the more likely one's decision is going to aligned with that tendency, but, as I said, I believe there is still a possibility to overcome the tendency and act differently. THE SAGES TELL US THAT A STRONG JUPITER CAN CONTERACT MANY EVILS (NEGATIVE TENDENCIES).. BUT THIS AGAIN IS A 'GRACE' INDICATED IN THE HOROSCOPE. YOU WROTE: As I said, I look at Yagyas as an example of how self-effort in this life can create benefic influence in this life. I am not sure what you are referring to by the underlying principle, but I would say that underlying principle of a Yagya is sacrifice which is an exercise of both will and self-effort. WHILST I AGREE THAT REMEDIAL MEASURES (YAGYAS ETC) CAN HELP TO "LESSEN THE IMPACT" OF NEGATIVE KARMA, THEY WILL NOT STOP THE KARMA FROM MANIFESTING. AS AN EXAMPLE; A NATIVE MAY BE DESTINED TO FALL AND BREAK A BONE BUT, THROUGH THE INTERVENTION OF THE APPROPRIATE YAGYA (AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME), THE IMPACT OF THE FALL MAY BE LESS SEVERE... HOWEVER THE KARMA WILL MANIFEST NONE-THE-LESS. ALL THAT CAN EVER BE DONE BY YAGYA IS TO LESSEN THE IMPACT. AS FOR SACRIFICE, CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THAT THE GREATEST SACRIFICE FOR REMISSION OF SINS (KARMA) WAS THE CRUCIFICTION. BUT EVEN THIS DOES NOT MEAN ABSOLUTION OF OUR KARMA IN THIS LIFE. YOU WROTE: My beliefs come from what makes sense to me and what 'feels' true. Of course, my experiences have helped to shape what I believe. Whether we are a novice or an expert, we all have some experience to drawn upon. And I may be new to Jyotish, but I am not new to spiritual study, including the concept of karma. The questions I pose and comments I make are part of the process of reconciling what I have learned with the principles of Jyotish. LEARN MORE JYOTISH AND RECONCILIATION WILL FOLLOW NATURALLY :-)) YOU WROTE: No, I am sure I would get lost in all the terminology. But a large part of the teaching of Paramahansa Yogananda is to illuminate the power of one's will to overcome life's obstacles (karmas). THIS WAS PARAMAHANSA'S KARMA. PERHAPS ONE DAY WE CAN DISCUSS HIS CHART...IT REVEALS MANY THINGS :-) YOU WROTE: Would you say that how the karma unfolds and whether or not there will be a perpetuation of the karma IS up to us? I would and do say that. IN THIS DAY AND AGE (IN THE WEST AT LEAST), WHERE RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION IS NO LONGER TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS, CHILDREN HAVE LITTLE CONCEPT OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG. IN FACT WHAT WE SEE TODAY IS THAT RIGHT HAS BECOME WRONG AND WRONG HAS BECOME RIGHT... WHERE ARE THE GUIDELINES FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES ACCORDING TO THE BASIC TENETS OF RELIGION, WHERE IS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO ESTABLISH MORE FAVOURABLE KARMA IN FUTURE BIRTH? YOU WROTE: That makes sense to me to, but I'd add that it possible to have an affect on this current life as well. NOT ACCORDING TO THE SAGES... YOU WROTE: It makes sense that if someone had been cultivating themselves according to a religion in the past life then the tendency would be there to do so again in this life, and such tendency would be indicated in the chart. But I would also say that even if the tendency is not there from a previous life it would still be possible for that person to cultivate their spirituality in this life -- it makes sense that it may take some will power to get started and greater self-effort to continue, like it would for anyone who decides to take up something new. But surely every moment can be a turning point - we have to start somewhere (even if we have an afflicted Moon ;^). PLEASE READ THE ANSWERS I'VE ALREADY GIVEN.. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Dear All, I am convinced that events which are of fixed nature are predetermined and has to happen during the time for which they are due.No parayer or any sort of remedial measures can change the destiniy of fixed nature. Ex. of fixed nature are promotion, death etc. Promotion can't be less or more. Prayers and other remedial measures can improve certain events of flexible nature only, such as happiness, concetration of mind, accidents(injury can be less or more) etc. Will power possesion is also destined and so are other attributes of human beings. Each and every parent try their best for education of their children. Children also know that hard labour will fetch good marks. But how many children act right.Those who do wrongs only, they know they do wrong, still they do wrong. Since they are destined to go in jail in destined time. All will agree, a good astrologer can pin point thru reading of horoscope a child when he will do bad and do good in his educational career. This can be done thru analysing of Dasa/anter period and strngth,position, aspects ets of/on dasa operating planets during educational period. One can find many examples of mediocre child , achievng top position in Universities and vice versa too. This shows all these are destined. Every one wishes to have top success in life, but how many's wishes are full filled. I quote here a hindu mytholigal story of destiny. It points to fixed detiny. Once so happened that in Indra Darbar all kings of earth, some devtas and "Jamraj" (responsible for human death in due time) too were present in the meeting. A king noticed that "jamraj" was staring him frequently. This staring was marked by some other kings too. The particular king got too much frightened and got up and ran away from that place on his horse. he wanted to get away from the place as soon as possible and hence compailed the horse to run fast. It so happened that a stone on the road came in the way of of horse's leg. Horse got unbalanced, fell on the road and the king fell too. he got severe head injury and died instataneouly.. A traveller saw the king dead and after a few minutes informed the dignitories gathered in the "darbar"((hall). All were surprised. Now, those kings who previously saw the king being stared by "jamraj" , quetioned him about his staring. "jamraj" told that he was surprised by king's presence in the hall attending meeting, while he was destined to die after a few minutes at such and such place on the road after falling from the horse.... Wendy Vasicek <jyotish wrote: Dear Nilesh, Sean and ALL, Yes, you're absolutely correct Nilesh! What is written will come to pass in spite of our best efforts to change it.. Because what is written (from above) is recorded in every molecule of every cell in our body (DNA?), and when the time is ripe for that to manifest it will do so. I understand what Sean is saying and there is some truth in the assumption that, although we cannot change the karma that is to come, we can change how we react to it. What needs to be understood however is that our ability to react positively or negatively is also written into our karmic code. A native with afflictions to bhavas/grahas associated with mind for instance will act pessimistically to almost any situation...even an Astrologer advising them to take care during a particular period can cause extreme anxiety as their tendency is towards worry (even for what has not, or may not happen). Those who shout loudly that we have the will (will-power) to determine our own destiny usually have a very powerful Mars or Saturn ruling or occupying 3rd house.. Strong (perhaps obstinate) beliefs can indicate the same sort of influence on 4th house for instance...but, whatever the reason for negativity or strong beliefs, it will be found in the horoscope. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Nilesh Joshi" <niljoshi27 <jyotish-vidya> Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:43 PM Re: Birth of Twins Dear Mrs Wendy,Sean and other respected members, Wendyji - logged in late - hope your husband has a fast and stress free recovery. The discussion regarding own will and karma made an interesting reading. I feel without doubt that destiny or fate will always overrule our efforts and astrology is the way which can enlighten what is written in our fate There is this story of varahamihira (the great astrologer) who had predicted the king's sons death from a pig- was incarcerated for making such a prediction.The child was kept is save wooden box coverred with the softest blankets.The box was raised above ground by few meters with the help of a wodden column and the room where this box was placed was guarded for 24 hours, how would a pig ever enter such a room? But alas the column colapsed for reasons unknown and wodden box broke under the heavy weight of the column,the child was killed due to the column over it. The column had a design of varaha (pig) on it.The royal carpenter had no idea of the predictions and as was in vogue ,had etched out a figure of pig on the column.So all the efforts of the king were in vain. Personally as well - I had my first cousin who died of breast cancer at an age of 35-36 inspite of having a masters in pharmacology, and the fact that the best medical facilities were available to her,living and settled in the US /Atlanta. When growing up as kids in Bombay she always took utmost care of not eating outside food for avoiding infection - just to say that she was not the one who would have neglected routine checkups or any treatment. Best Regards Nilesh Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web. jyotish-vidya Enjoy this Diwali with Y! India Click here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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