Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Om Krishna Guru Dear Friends, An interesting topic, which was many times discussed on this list before. Just a few pointers : 1. If you are listening to PVR's lectures at Boston, it is First cry that is applicable in Kaliyuga.Four definitions for the four Yugas.Pls listen to his lectures. 2. Baby is respirating fluids, when in the womb. Fluids carry Oxygen.When the pulsations completely stop in the Umbilicus, baby automatically starts breathing for air(first cry). Doctors are supposed to cut the umbilicus, when the pulsations completely stop, to allow the flow of vital fluids to the baby. So, cutting umbilicus could work as a proxy, if done properly i.e., if the umbilicus is Not clamped & cut for some reasons, when fluids are still flowing. 3. Exceptions only confirm rules! When compared to differences in Ayanamsa etc., definition of BT is only an academic issue! regards viswanadham , "dhamakesin" <dhamakesin@s...> wrote: > Dear Ramapriya and Chandrashekhar, > > It is an interesting question about how to define the instant of > birth. You know there is some variation in the method of births in > humans and placental animals. In some animals the cord breaks > naturally, and in others they chew it off. Of course in humans the > cord is usually cut. There is a method of birth called 'lotus birth' > where the cord is not cut but naturally separates. The placenta is > delivered about 10-15 minutes after delivery, and the placenta is > kept with the baby until it naturally separates (about four days > later). > > Some consider the moment of birth as the touching of the baby's head > to the ground during a squatting birth. You could just say the birth > time is the moment the baby is completely outside (breathing or > not). Could this question be answered by considering different times > for various charts for babies that experienced different styles of > birth? We have the following possibilities: > > head touches the ground (may not occur in all cases) > completely outside mother > first breath (may not occur in all cases) > separation of cord > > Obtaining this information would be rare. This uncertainty favors > rectifying all charts. > > Sincerely, > Dhamakesin > > , "Ramapriya D" <hubli@h...> wrote: > > Dear Chandrashekhar, > > > > I know I'm treading thin ice when I've to give an opinion that > isn't analogous with yours but this is one such instance. > > My considered view is that the baby is born the instant the > placenta gets detached from the mother; that happens at the instant > when the body is outside the mother... unless you the vet refute it > (you must have delivered a mammal or two in your day, right?)! In > Caesarean section births, it has to be when the umbilical cord is > snapped. The only reason why I've to take a different stand on this > is because a child can well be born dead, which means it won't take > any breath at all. Harrumphing already? > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Ramapriya > > > > - > > Chandrashekhar > > > > Sunday, July 11, 2004 12:56 AM > > Re: [sJC: Achyuta Gurukul] Correct Birth Timing > > > > > > Dear Drupad, > > Only Phaladeepika, to my knowledge, mentions the time of birth to > be cutting of umbilical cord. My personal opinion is it is when the > child draws first breath. > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > drupadupadhyaya wrote: > > > > Respected Gurus, > > > > I had a doubt in my mind regarding the correct birth timing. Is > it > > mentioned anywhere in any of the classics as to what should be > taken > > as the time of birth of a child. Is it that time when any one > part of > > his body comes out of the womb or is is the time of his first > breath > > or should birth time be taken when the nadi is cut. In most of > the > > cases, it makes little difference but in some cases, it does > make a > > lot of difference especially when the nakshatra changes. Kindly > guide > > me whether there is any definite authoritative statement on > this. > > Please advice me as to your views on the subject also. Kindly > clarify. > > > > Thanks & Regards > > Drupad > > > > [Om Kleem Krishnaaya Jagannathaaya namah] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Dear Sri Vishvanadham, I couldn't download those lectures as my internet connectivity is poor. Would you please quote a gist of his lecture connected to this. I'd like to know abt other yugas as well. Please also let me know whether he quotes any PRAMAANAM. You have rightly pointed out that this is not an issue compared to Ayanamsha. Whatever time we choose we have to do rectification, if we can find the correct Nadi, we can fix up to 24 sec approx! Best Regards, Saaji , "vishwanatham" <vishwanatham@r...> wrote: > Om Krishna Guru > > > Dear Friends, > > An interesting topic, which was many times discussed on this list > before. > > Just a few pointers : > > 1. If you are listening to PVR's lectures at Boston, it is First cry > that is applicable in Kaliyuga.Four definitions for the four > Yugas.Pls listen to his lectures. > > 2. Baby is respirating fluids, when in the womb. Fluids carry > Oxygen.When the pulsations completely stop in the Umbilicus, baby > automatically starts breathing for air(first cry). Doctors are > supposed to cut the umbilicus, when the pulsations completely stop, > to allow the flow of vital fluids to the baby. So, cutting umbilicus > could work as a proxy, if done properly i.e., if the umbilicus is Not > clamped & cut for some reasons, when fluids are still flowing. > > 3. Exceptions only confirm rules! > > When compared to differences in Ayanamsa etc., definition of BT is > only an academic issue! > > regards > viswanadham > , "dhamakesin" <dhamakesin@s...> > wrote: > > Dear Ramapriya and Chandrashekhar, > > > > It is an interesting question about how to define the instant of > > birth. You know there is some variation in the method of births in > > humans and placental animals. In some animals the cord breaks > > naturally, and in others they chew it off. Of course in humans the > > cord is usually cut. There is a method of birth called 'lotus > birth' > > where the cord is not cut but naturally separates. The placenta is > > delivered about 10-15 minutes after delivery, and the placenta is > > kept with the baby until it naturally separates (about four days > > later). > > > > Some consider the moment of birth as the touching of the baby's > head > > to the ground during a squatting birth. You could just say the > birth > > time is the moment the baby is completely outside (breathing or > > not). Could this question be answered by considering different > times > > for various charts for babies that experienced different styles of > > birth? We have the following possibilities: > > > > head touches the ground (may not occur in all cases) > > completely outside mother > > first breath (may not occur in all cases) > > separation of cord > > > > Obtaining this information would be rare. This uncertainty favors > > rectifying all charts. > > > > Sincerely, > > Dhamakesin > > > > , "Ramapriya D" <hubli@h...> > wrote: > > > Dear Chandrashekhar, > > > > > > I know I'm treading thin ice when I've to give an opinion that > > isn't analogous with yours but this is one such instance. > > > My considered view is that the baby is born the instant the > > placenta gets detached from the mother; that happens at the instant > > when the body is outside the mother... unless you the vet refute it > > (you must have delivered a mammal or two in your day, right?)! In > > Caesarean section births, it has to be when the umbilical cord is > > snapped. The only reason why I've to take a different stand on this > > is because a child can well be born dead, which means it won't take > > any breath at all. Harrumphing already? > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > Ramapriya > > > > > > - > > > Chandrashekhar > > > > > > Sunday, July 11, 2004 12:56 AM > > > Re: [sJC: Achyuta Gurukul] Correct Birth Timing > > > > > > > > > Dear Drupad, > > > Only Phaladeepika, to my knowledge, mentions the time of birth > to > > be cutting of umbilical cord. My personal opinion is it is when the > > child draws first breath. > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > drupadupadhyaya wrote: > > > > > > Respected Gurus, > > > > > > I had a doubt in my mind regarding the correct birth timing. > Is > > it > > > mentioned anywhere in any of the classics as to what should > be > > taken > > > as the time of birth of a child. Is it that time when any one > > part of > > > his body comes out of the womb or is is the time of his first > > breath > > > or should birth time be taken when the nadi is cut. In most > of > > the > > > cases, it makes little difference but in some cases, it does > > make a > > > lot of difference especially when the nakshatra changes. > Kindly > > guide > > > me whether there is any definite authoritative statement on > > this. > > > Please advice me as to your views on the subject also. Kindly > > clarify. > > > > > > Thanks & Regards > > > Drupad > > > > > > [Om Kleem Krishnaaya Jagannathaaya namah] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Om Krishna Guru Dear Saaji, In his 1st lecture in part-2 of the recording, PVR expressed as his view and of his parampara that: 1. Sighting the Head for Krita yuga 2. Bhu Patana for the Treta Yuga 3. Cutting the umbilicus for the Dwapara yuga 4. First cry of the baby for Kaliyuga. He also said that there is no agreement among scholars on this and that rectification of BT is essential. This is not the first time i heard about it... though i do not remember where exactly! Hope this helps. You are right about Nadiamsas and artha nadiamsas giving a 24 sec window. Even using 16 divisions, one may rectify upto a few seconds. regards viswanadham , "saaji kulangara" <saajik wrote: > Dear Sri Vishvanadham, > > I couldn't download those lectures as my internet connectivity is > poor. Would you please quote a gist of his lecture connected to this. > I'd like to know abt other yugas as well. Please also let me know > whether he quotes any PRAMAANAM. > > You have rightly pointed out that this is not an issue compared to > Ayanamsha. Whatever time we choose we have to do rectification, if we > can find the correct Nadi, we can fix up to 24 sec approx! > > Best Regards, > > Saaji > > > , "vishwanatham" > <vishwanatham@r...> wrote: > > Om Krishna Guru > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > An interesting topic, which was many times discussed on this list > > before. > > > > Just a few pointers : > > > > 1. If you are listening to PVR's lectures at Boston, it is First > cry > > that is applicable in Kaliyuga.Four definitions for the four > > Yugas.Pls listen to his lectures. > > > > 2. Baby is respirating fluids, when in the womb. Fluids carry > > Oxygen.When the pulsations completely stop in the Umbilicus, baby > > automatically starts breathing for air(first cry). Doctors are > > supposed to cut the umbilicus, when the pulsations completely stop, > > to allow the flow of vital fluids to the baby. So, cutting > umbilicus > > could work as a proxy, if done properly i.e., if the umbilicus is > Not > > clamped & cut for some reasons, when fluids are still flowing. > > > > 3. Exceptions only confirm rules! > > > > When compared to differences in Ayanamsa etc., definition of BT is > > only an academic issue! > > > > regards > > viswanadham > > , "dhamakesin" <dhamakesin@s...> > > wrote: > > > Dear Ramapriya and Chandrashekhar, > > > > > > It is an interesting question about how to define the instant of > > > birth. You know there is some variation in the method of births > in > > > humans and placental animals. In some animals the cord breaks > > > naturally, and in others they chew it off. Of course in humans > the > > > cord is usually cut. There is a method of birth called 'lotus > > birth' > > > where the cord is not cut but naturally separates. The placenta > is > > > delivered about 10-15 minutes after delivery, and the placenta is > > > kept with the baby until it naturally separates (about four days > > > later). > > > > > > Some consider the moment of birth as the touching of the baby's > > head > > > to the ground during a squatting birth. You could just say the > > birth > > > time is the moment the baby is completely outside (breathing or > > > not). Could this question be answered by considering different > > times > > > for various charts for babies that experienced different styles > of > > > birth? We have the following possibilities: > > > > > > head touches the ground (may not occur in all cases) > > > completely outside mother > > > first breath (may not occur in all cases) > > > separation of cord > > > > > > Obtaining this information would be rare. This uncertainty > favors > > > rectifying all charts. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Dhamakesin > > > > > > , "Ramapriya D" <hubli@h...> > > wrote: > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar, > > > > > > > > I know I'm treading thin ice when I've to give an opinion that > > > isn't analogous with yours but this is one such instance. > > > > My considered view is that the baby is born the instant the > > > placenta gets detached from the mother; that happens at the > instant > > > when the body is outside the mother... unless you the vet refute > it > > > (you must have delivered a mammal or two in your day, right?)! In > > > Caesarean section births, it has to be when the umbilical cord is > > > snapped. The only reason why I've to take a different stand on > this > > > is because a child can well be born dead, which means it won't > take > > > any breath at all. Harrumphing already? > > > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > > > Ramapriya > > > > > > > > - > > > > Chandrashekhar > > > > > > > > Sunday, July 11, 2004 12:56 AM > > > > Re: [sJC: Achyuta Gurukul] Correct Birth Timing > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Drupad, > > > > Only Phaladeepika, to my knowledge, mentions the time of > birth > > to > > > be cutting of umbilical cord. My personal opinion is it is when > the > > > child draws first breath. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > drupadupadhyaya wrote: > > > > > > > > Respected Gurus, > > > > > > > > I had a doubt in my mind regarding the correct birth > timing. > > Is > > > it > > > > mentioned anywhere in any of the classics as to what should > > be > > > taken > > > > as the time of birth of a child. Is it that time when any > one > > > part of > > > > his body comes out of the womb or is is the time of his > first > > > breath > > > > or should birth time be taken when the nadi is cut. In > most > > of > > > the > > > > cases, it makes little difference but in some cases, it > does > > > make a > > > > lot of difference especially when the nakshatra changes. > > Kindly > > > guide > > > > me whether there is any definite authoritative statement on > > > this. > > > > Please advice me as to your views on the subject also. > Kindly > > > clarify. > > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards > > > > Drupad > > > > > > > > [Om Kleem Krishnaaya Jagannathaaya namah] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Dear Viswanadham, For the following birth time rules: 1. Sighting the Head for Krita yuga 2. Bhu Patana for the Treta Yuga 3. Cutting the umbilicus for the Dwapara yuga 4. First cry of the baby for Kaliyuga. Is Kali referred to here, the Kaliyug of the Universal (Day of Brahman) Cycle that started on Pramadi Chaitra Bright 1st day, Friday (BC 3102-2-20) at 2-27-30 P.M., or the Kaliyug that corresponds to the shorter 24000 to 26000 year equinocital cycle, starting about 700 BCE and ending about 500 CE (described by Swami Sriyukteswar of Puri)? The Yugas are described in Manu Samhita, Bühler translation (chapter 1, 68-73): 68. But hear now the brief (description of) the duration of a night and a day of Brahman and of the several ages (of the world, yuga) according to their order. 69. They declare that the Krita age (consists of) four thousand years (of the gods); the twilight preceding it consists of as many hundreds, and the twilight following it of the same number. 70. In the other three ages with their twilights preceding and following, the thousands and hundreds are diminished by one (in each). 71. These twelve thousand (years) which thus have been just mentioned as the total of four (human) ages, are called one age of the gods. 72. But know that the sum of one thousand ages of the gods (makes) one day of Brahman, and that his night has the same length. 73. Those (only, who) know that the holy day of Brahman, indeed, ends after (the completion of) one thousand ages (of the gods) and that his night lasts as long, (are really) men acquainted with (the length of) days and nights. Manu Samhita (chapter 1, 79-80): 79. The before-mentioned age of the gods, (or) twelve thousand (of their years), being multiplied by seventy-one, (constitutes what) is here named the period of a Manu (Manvantara). 80. The Manvantaras, the creations and destructions (of the world, are) numberless; sporting, as it were, Brahman repeats this again and again. 4800 + 3600 + 2400 + 1200 = 12000 (age of the gods) 71 x 12000 = 852000 (Manvantara) 1000 X 12000 = 12000000 (one day of Brahman, or one night of Brahman) So 12000000 / 852000 = 14 Manvantara occur each day of Brahman. It is said that we are half way through a day of Brahman. If we start in the highest spiritual age with the first Manvantara and then progress to the lowest in the 6th and 7th Manvantara, and then progress back up to the highest spritual age again with the 14th Manvantara then we are indeed deeply in the dark ages. Thank you for any clarification. Dhamakesin , "vishwanatham" <vishwanatham@r...> wrote: > Om Krishna Guru > > Dear Saaji, > > In his 1st lecture in part-2 of the recording, PVR expressed as his > view and of his parampara that: > > 1. Sighting the Head for Krita yuga > 2. Bhu Patana for the Treta Yuga > 3. Cutting the umbilicus for the Dwapara yuga > 4. First cry of the baby for Kaliyuga. > > He also said that there is no agreement among scholars on this and > that rectification of BT is essential. > > This is not the first time i heard about it... though i do not > remember where exactly! > > Hope this helps. > > You are right about Nadiamsas and artha nadiamsas giving a 24 sec > window. Even using 16 divisions, one may rectify upto a few seconds. > > regards > viswanadham > , "saaji kulangara" <saajik > wrote: > > Dear Sri Vishvanadham, > > > > I couldn't download those lectures as my internet connectivity is > > poor. Would you please quote a gist of his lecture connected to > this. > > I'd like to know abt other yugas as well. Please also let me know > > whether he quotes any PRAMAANAM. > > > > You have rightly pointed out that this is not an issue compared to > > Ayanamsha. Whatever time we choose we have to do rectification, if > we > > can find the correct Nadi, we can fix up to 24 sec approx! > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Saaji > > > > > > , "vishwanatham" > > <vishwanatham@r...> wrote: > > > Om Krishna Guru > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > An interesting topic, which was many times discussed on this list > > > before. > > > > > > Just a few pointers : > > > > > > 1. If you are listening to PVR's lectures at Boston, it is First > > cry > > > that is applicable in Kaliyuga.Four definitions for the four > > > Yugas.Pls listen to his lectures. > > > > > > 2. Baby is respirating fluids, when in the womb. Fluids carry > > > Oxygen.When the pulsations completely stop in the Umbilicus, baby > > > automatically starts breathing for air(first cry). Doctors are > > > supposed to cut the umbilicus, when the pulsations completely > stop, > > > to allow the flow of vital fluids to the baby. So, cutting > > umbilicus > > > could work as a proxy, if done properly i.e., if the umbilicus is > > Not > > > clamped & cut for some reasons, when fluids are still flowing. > > > > > > 3. Exceptions only confirm rules! > > > > > > When compared to differences in Ayanamsa etc., definition of BT > is > > > only an academic issue! > > > > > > regards > > > viswanadham > > > , "dhamakesin" > <dhamakesin@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Ramapriya and Chandrashekhar, > > > > > > > > It is an interesting question about how to define the instant > of > > > > birth. You know there is some variation in the method of > births > > in > > > > humans and placental animals. In some animals the cord breaks > > > > naturally, and in others they chew it off. Of course in humans > > the > > > > cord is usually cut. There is a method of birth called 'lotus > > > birth' > > > > where the cord is not cut but naturally separates. The > placenta > > is > > > > delivered about 10-15 minutes after delivery, and the placenta > is > > > > kept with the baby until it naturally separates (about four > days > > > > later). > > > > > > > > Some consider the moment of birth as the touching of the baby's > > > head > > > > to the ground during a squatting birth. You could just say the > > > birth > > > > time is the moment the baby is completely outside (breathing or > > > > not). Could this question be answered by considering different > > > times > > > > for various charts for babies that experienced different styles > > of > > > > birth? We have the following possibilities: > > > > > > > > head touches the ground (may not occur in all cases) > > > > completely outside mother > > > > first breath (may not occur in all cases) > > > > separation of cord > > > > > > > > Obtaining this information would be rare. This uncertainty > > favors > > > > rectifying all charts. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Dhamakesin > > > > > > > > , "Ramapriya D" <hubli@h...> > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Chandrashekhar, > > > > > > > > > > I know I'm treading thin ice when I've to give an opinion > that > > > > isn't analogous with yours but this is one such instance. > > > > > My considered view is that the baby is born the instant the > > > > placenta gets detached from the mother; that happens at the > > instant > > > > when the body is outside the mother... unless you the vet > refute > > it > > > > (you must have delivered a mammal or two in your day, right?)! > In > > > > Caesarean section births, it has to be when the umbilical cord > is > > > > snapped. The only reason why I've to take a different stand on > > this > > > > is because a child can well be born dead, which means it won't > > take > > > > any breath at all. Harrumphing already? > > > > > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > Ramapriya > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Chandrashekhar > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, July 11, 2004 12:56 AM > > > > > Re: [sJC: Achyuta Gurukul] Correct Birth Timing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Drupad, > > > > > Only Phaladeepika, to my knowledge, mentions the time of > > birth > > > to > > > > be cutting of umbilical cord. My personal opinion is it is when > > the > > > > child draws first breath. > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > drupadupadhyaya wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Respected Gurus, > > > > > > > > > > I had a doubt in my mind regarding the correct birth > > timing. > > > Is > > > > it > > > > > mentioned anywhere in any of the classics as to what > should > > > be > > > > taken > > > > > as the time of birth of a child. Is it that time when any > > one > > > > part of > > > > > his body comes out of the womb or is is the time of his > > first > > > > breath > > > > > or should birth time be taken when the nadi is cut. In > > most > > > of > > > > the > > > > > cases, it makes little difference but in some cases, it > > does > > > > make a > > > > > lot of difference especially when the nakshatra changes. > > > Kindly > > > > guide > > > > > me whether there is any definite authoritative statement > on > > > > this. > > > > > Please advice me as to your views on the subject also. > > Kindly > > > > clarify. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards > > > > > Drupad > > > > > > > > > > [Om Kleem Krishnaaya Jagannathaaya namah] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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