Guest guest Posted September 29, 2002 Report Share Posted September 29, 2002 HARE RAMA KRISHNA !! DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER, I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I READ WITH INTEREST ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED UP THE BASICS OF ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A BEGINNER ONLY. I FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOES MOVEMENT OF PLANETS AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS?? WHAT ARE RAHU AND KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHER PLANETS?? WHY NOT THE OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE?? I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP. THANKS AND REGARDS SRINIVASAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2002 Report Share Posted September 29, 2002 AND WHY THE YELLING? IS YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY STUCK OR WHAT? - scorpio1234in Monday, September 30, 2002 10:56 AM Scientific basis for astrology HARE RAMA KRISHNA !!DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER,I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I READ WITH INTEREST ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED UP THE BASICS OF ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A BEGINNER ONLY. I FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOES MOVEMENT OF PLANETS AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS?? WHAT ARE RAHU AND KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHER PLANETS?? WHY NOT THE OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE??I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP.THANKS AND REGARDSSRINIVASAN Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2002 Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 Vyam Vyaasadevaaya Namah Dear Srinivasan, Answers bellow in Red. Best wishesVisti---Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgITRANS Font: http://www.aczone.com/itrans/ - scorpio1234in Monday, September 30, 2002 7:26 AM Scientific basis for astrology HARE RAMA KRISHNA !!DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER,I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I READ WITH INTEREST ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED UP THE BASICS OF ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A BEGINNER ONLY. I FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. Good cause, but it will be tough to convince somebody who doesn't believe in God.. unless you give acurate predictions. The Goal of Jyotishas is to first bring the person to believe in God, and 2nd to bring them closer to God. HOW DOES MOVEMENT OF PLANETS AFFECT OUR LIVES?? You will need the Itrans font to read this, the link is given in my message above. As per Maha Rishi Parasara Chapter 2, Sloka 3. Avtara{ynekain ýjSy prmaTmn>, jIvana< kmR)ldae ¢hépI jnadRn> avat˜r˜õyanek˜ni hyajasya param˜tmana×| jŸv˜n˜Õ karmaphalado graharupŸ jan˜rdana× Translated it says; The Supersoul/Unborn Lord(Paramatma) has many incarnations. He has incarnated as the planets, to bestow the fruits of Karma on the living beings. He is the lifegiver of the universe (Janardana) WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS?? Rather the question is; why only the 2 luminaries, 5 planets, and the 2 nodes of the Moon. Excluding the 2 nodes as they have no physical form, we are left with the 5 planets and 2 luminaries. Now if we read Bhagavad Purana or Vishnu Purana, etc, then we are met with the story of the 7 Dweepas(islands) which are surrounded by 7 oceans/raasa. These Islands excede only until the Loka-Loka mountains, where no light goes beyond, hence allthough we acknowledge celestial bodies beyond that point, they aren't of any use to influence the jeevas. The link for Bhagavad Purana/Srimad Bhagavatam, is included in the body of my message. WHAT ARE RAHU AND KETU?? These are Nodes of the Moon. When the Moon travels around the Earth, it has a wobble. This wobble has an upper and lower limit. The topmost upper/northen limit is called the North Node, or Rahu, whilst the south node is called Ketu. This is used to time eclipses, when the Sun and Moon join at the North node. WHAT IS GULIKAN?? It is not a satelite, but a point calculated on the basis of the Kalas of a day. Gulika is the child of Saturn and is used to see the sins we have performed. It also has vital use in calculating Conception charts. You will need a reference to understand the calculations of various Upa-/aprakesh - Grahas. Goto the Vedic-Astrology site, and look into the file-section where theres a word-document with Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra. Hope this helps. I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP.THANKS AND REGARDSSRINIVASAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2002 Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 Dear Narayana Iyer ji, It is an excellent explanation, I have ever heard about karma. Untill now I have been always ambiguous about the karma.Especially I have been thinking about the difference between the person who do the good deads and the saint who renounce everything in the material world. Thank you very much for you information. Thanks and Regards, Kumar --- naaraayana_iyer <naaraayana_iyer wrote: > Om Jaya Jagannath > ----------------- > > Dear Srinivan, > > Welcome to SriJagannath Forum. > > BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A > SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR > ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, > BUT FREQUENTLY I > COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. > > Unfortunately, the present state of *Science* has > still not reached > the stage where they can fully comprehend the > workings of the > Universe! Yet, they have come a long way, ever since > Galileo was > tortured(or was it put to death??) for stating that > Earth was > spherical in shape!! Scientists are slowly realizing > these subltle > phenomena and are acknowleging, albeit with lot of > reservations. > > Most of modern men and scientists, go by the > principle of *Seeing is > Believing* or *I need Proof*, which is fantastic and > an excellent > attitude. Fact is, we all live on the earth and our > sciences etc are > limited to these eartly confines, which are well > defined and > contained. Astrology and allied Occult Sciences work > on > Subtle/Ethereal level, where there are no > limitations, and cannot be > easily comprehended by our limited organs of > perception. > > We have tomes and tomes of Philosophical, > Astrological & Tantric > literatures which deal in these subjects. To > *directly* realize most > of these texts, one has to have a competent Guru, do > our sadhanas > regularly and awaken our dormant kundalini shakti! > Our great saints > and tantrics dont go about carrying books and notes, > they are the > very embodiemnt of Vedas and Divine knowledge. Due > to their faith, > discipline, effort and proper guidance they realize > the unrealized. > They do doubt these things initially, The just dont > stop after > doubting, but they then sincerely explore into these > recondite > domains without any bias! > > Yet, you need not be super-educated to understand or > believe in > them. If you are observant, and watch closely you > can be a witness > to the wonderful phenomenon called Law of Karma. I > was lucky, in > that, as a child, my father used to teach me what > Karma is, and how > it affects us in our day-to-day life. He used to > give practical > examples of friends, relatives. We used to take > case-studies , > observe the actions of certain individuals and see > how it affects > them later. It was unbelievable to say the least! I > am not claiming > to be a know-it-all, just sharing my experince. > > If you ask me what Jyotisha Shastra or for that > matter life is all > about .... all I can say is Law of Karma. For those > with scientific > temper, this is nothing but Newton's third law of > motion, which > states: "Ever Action has Equal and Opposite > Reaction". > > When you act(this action is something which most of > us identify our > ego/ahamkara with), we create a debt, which in > sanskrit is known as > Rna. It is this Rna which ties us up to our earthly > existence. Then > nature(prakriti) creates a situation which subjects > us to deal with > the re-action. This cycle goes on and on. If you > dont experience the > *Equal & Opposite Reaction* during your current > lifetime, rest > assured, it will visit you in your in the next one, > till you repay > yoor karmic debts. This is known as Rnanu-bandhana. > The bondage of > Karma. > > What is fate, after all, nothing but the sum of all > our past karmas, > and what are the karmas except the debts to be paid. > Nature's wheels > grinds slowly, but they grind very very thoroughly, > and nothing > escapes them. > > In Jyotisha, we recognize The Nine Planets which are > the agencies > through which Nature gets her job done. Each planet > planets > influences different aspects of our lives. The Sun, > for instance, > represents the Soul. The Moon represents the Mind, > especially its > intuitive and emotional aspects, etc. > > The most important of the Nine Planets is Saturn, > the planet in > charge of Experience - Anubhava. Saturn is the "Son > of Sun" in > Jyotish because all experience occurs due to the > presence of the > soul, who is the true experincer. He dishes out what > we deserve, > based on our karmic accounts, if we have done good > deeds in our past > lives, then we experience happiness else misery. > > Hence, In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna avers: "Renounce > the fruits of your > action". That is how we avoid creating karma for > ourselves. > Obviously, the question arises, what if we do good > deeds, why shdn't > we identify with them, why renounce the fruits? The > answer is, > because karma causes re-birth, and even though these > are good > karmas, we are re-born, to experience the re-action. > So whats the > problem? It is because, when we are re-born, we > loose knowledge > of our past lives. Look at the rich and famous. They > have done > substantial amount of good karmas, and they are > re-born into a life > of opulence, then they start wasting away and mire > themselves into > new sets of karmas and take a spiral plunge. > Ofcourse, we ourselves > are not exceptions! > > Here is where, praying to Ishta Devata is essential > and important. > By surrendering ourselves to our Ishta Devata, we > are in essence, > letting our personal deity to control our samskaras, > wo we are freed > from current and future debts! > > That is why I say, dont bother about convincing > anybody. If they > believe, they wont need any convincing, and if they > dont, no amount > of convincing will work on them. Often, those who > believe, have done > astrology in their past lives and its all the karmas > acting in this > life. > > Finally, we all have our limitations, we have to > realize this and > rise above this. Easier said than done. But, > Astrology is an > excellent tool, to understand the Law of Karma. It > is a formidable > Science, by which we can also decipher the > statements in Bhagavad > Gita and for that matter all our philosophical > literature too. > > As far as the other questions are concerned, I > believe Ramapriya & > Visti have answered them. Good Luck on your voyage! > > Blessings, > Narayan > > > > , "scorpio1234in" > <scorpio1234in> wrote: > > HARE RAMA KRISHNA !! > === message truncated === New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Dear Srinivasan, Let me add another dimension to this debate. For a long time now, there has been a branch of study called the history and sociology of science. This forms a part of a larger theoretical frame known as epistemology, or the study of knowledge systems. In this system, the sociologists of science has shown, that what we know as 'science', is 'modern science', a specific branch of scientific knowledge which was born during the Renaissance (14th-15th centuries) in the West, and reached its culmination during the Enlightenment (18th-19th centuries). This new body of knowledge was culture specific, value specific and based on certain parameters such as 'mathematical proof', 'verifiable evidence' etc. This method of mathematization of knowledge, spread to all other branches of knowledge. The negative side of this system was, that it claimed itself to be universal, and made obsolete all other forms of knowledge, specially science, which did not fall within its definition. Thus a lot of non-modern knowledge systems, including non-modern science, which were based on oral traditions, not based on mathematical proofs and evidences, but perhaps encoded in myths and beliefs, were lost. This happened specially in the West, where they have lost almost all their esoteric and traditional knowledge systems. In the East, we have been saved, because of the peculiarity of our social and political structure, which enables the simultaneous existence of both the modern and the non-modern, as well as odd mixtures of both. Despite it, a lot is still lost. Hence there is a trend in trying to recover these obsolete knowledge forms, be it in agriculture, medicine, water harvesting, architecture or jyotish. In the West, the leading universities have done a tremendous amount of work along the lines I mentioned above, and there is a whole body of literature on this. There are a few in India too, who are working towards these directions, and are trying to recover lost traditions. Jyotish is one such non-modern system of knowledge, largely based upon oral traditions, and found upon parameters vastly different from modern science. So it would be foolish to equate the two. We are fortunate here at Shri Jagannath, to be the recipient of an oral tradition, which have existed in Orissa through a parampara, for a long time. There must be so many other traditions of astrology in other parts of India, which have gone underground. Astrology should not be judged by the parameters of modern science as the cognitive parameters of jyotish are entirely separate. Instead it should be treated as a body of knowledge as distinctively different. Regards, Sarbani naaraayana_iyer wrote: > Om Jaya Jagannath > ----------------- > > Dear Srinivan, > > Welcome to SriJagannath Forum. > > BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR > ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I > COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. > > Unfortunately, the present state of *Science* has still not reached > the stage where they can fully comprehend the workings of the > Universe! Yet, they have come a long way, ever since Galileo was > tortured(or was it put to death??) for stating that Earth was > spherical in shape!! Scientists are slowly realizing these subltle > phenomena and are acknowleging, albeit with lot of reservations. > > Most of modern men and scientists, go by the principle of *Seeing is > Believing* or *I need Proof*, which is fantastic and an excellent > attitude. Fact is, we all live on the earth and our sciences etc are > limited to these eartly confines, which are well defined and > contained. Astrology and allied Occult Sciences work on > Subtle/Ethereal level, where there are no limitations, and cannot be > easily comprehended by our limited organs of perception. > > We have tomes and tomes of Philosophical, Astrological & Tantric > literatures which deal in these subjects. To *directly* realize most > of these texts, one has to have a competent Guru, do our sadhanas > regularly and awaken our dormant kundalini shakti! Our great saints > and tantrics dont go about carrying books and notes, they are the > very embodiemnt of Vedas and Divine knowledge. Due to their faith, > discipline, effort and proper guidance they realize the unrealized. > They do doubt these things initially, The just dont stop after > doubting, but they then sincerely explore into these recondite > domains without any bias! > > Yet, you need not be super-educated to understand or believe in > them. If you are observant, and watch closely you can be a witness > to the wonderful phenomenon called Law of Karma. I was lucky, in > that, as a child, my father used to teach me what Karma is, and how > it affects us in our day-to-day life. He used to give practical > examples of friends, relatives. We used to take case-studies , > observe the actions of certain individuals and see how it affects > them later. It was unbelievable to say the least! I am not claiming > to be a know-it-all, just sharing my experince. > > If you ask me what Jyotisha Shastra or for that matter life is all > about .... all I can say is Law of Karma. For those with scientific > temper, this is nothing but Newton's third law of motion, which > states: "Ever Action has Equal and Opposite Reaction". > > When you act(this action is something which most of us identify our > ego/ahamkara with), we create a debt, which in sanskrit is known as > Rna. It is this Rna which ties us up to our earthly existence. Then > nature(prakriti) creates a situation which subjects us to deal with > the re-action. This cycle goes on and on. If you dont experience the > *Equal & Opposite Reaction* during your current lifetime, rest > assured, it will visit you in your in the next one, till you repay > yoor karmic debts. This is known as Rnanu-bandhana. The bondage of > Karma. > > What is fate, after all, nothing but the sum of all our past karmas, > and what are the karmas except the debts to be paid. Nature's wheels > grinds slowly, but they grind very very thoroughly, and nothing > escapes them. > > In Jyotisha, we recognize The Nine Planets which are the agencies > through which Nature gets her job done. Each planet planets > influences different aspects of our lives. The Sun, for instance, > represents the Soul. The Moon represents the Mind, especially its > intuitive and emotional aspects, etc. > > The most important of the Nine Planets is Saturn, the planet in > charge of Experience - Anubhava. Saturn is the "Son of Sun" in > Jyotish because all experience occurs due to the presence of the > soul, who is the true experincer. He dishes out what we deserve, > based on our karmic accounts, if we have done good deeds in our past > lives, then we experience happiness else misery. > > Hence, In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna avers: "Renounce the fruits of your > action". That is how we avoid creating karma for ourselves. > Obviously, the question arises, what if we do good deeds, why shdn't > we identify with them, why renounce the fruits? The answer is, > because karma causes re-birth, and even though these are good > karmas, we are re-born, to experience the re-action. So whats the > problem? It is because, when we are re-born, we loose knowledge > of our past lives. Look at the rich and famous. They have done > substantial amount of good karmas, and they are re-born into a life > of opulence, then they start wasting away and mire themselves into > new sets of karmas and take a spiral plunge. Ofcourse, we ourselves > are not exceptions! > > Here is where, praying to Ishta Devata is essential and important. > By surrendering ourselves to our Ishta Devata, we are in essence, > letting our personal deity to control our samskaras, wo we are freed > from current and future debts! > > That is why I say, dont bother about convincing anybody. If they > believe, they wont need any convincing, and if they dont, no amount > of convincing will work on them. Often, those who believe, have done > astrology in their past lives and its all the karmas acting in this > life. > > Finally, we all have our limitations, we have to realize this and > rise above this. Easier said than done. But, Astrology is an > excellent tool, to understand the Law of Karma. It is a formidable > Science, by which we can also decipher the statements in Bhagavad > Gita and for that matter all our philosophical literature too. > > As far as the other questions are concerned, I believe Ramapriya & > Visti have answered them. Good Luck on your voyage! > > Blessings, > Narayan > > , "scorpio1234in" <scorpio1234in> wrote: > > HARE RAMA KRISHNA !! > > > > DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER, > > I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I READ WITH > INTEREST > > ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED UP THE BASICS OF > > ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A BEGINNER ONLY. I > > FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BEING AN > > ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR > ASTROLOGY, > > NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME > ACROSS > > UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOES MOVEMENT OF PLANETS > > AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS?? WHAT ARE RAHU AND > > KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHER PLANETS?? WHY NOT THE > > OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE?? > > I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS > > GROUP. > > THANKS AND REGARDS > > SRINIVASAN > > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 My respects to all members of Sri Jagannath newsgroup! I am new here, therefore I was doubting if throwing here few sentences woudn't transgress some etiquete on this group. I hope not. Dear Srinivasan Today I was teaching my son a lesson of English language and was answering a question raised by him: "Why in English language people have chosen to speak in third singular "has" instead of "have"? Wouldn't it be more simple otherwise?" Most people think astrology is a "science" or "body of knowledge" about how movements of cellestial bodies influence our lives. Thus they think it is something to be proven and subject to modern school of "scientific" thought, like physics, astrophysics, mathematics, etc. I would like to say I believe that Jyotish is not a science of karma in a very meaning of it. It is very close, but it is more than that. If it would be, then in all the jyotish-sastras we would have lessons of how different planetary positions indicate that this is a cause (deed) in the past and that its result now or in the future. We can hardly find that stated so specificly in all sastras. It is more than that, because it shows how the planets moving in time are INDICATING (not causing) different situations in the material world, also in relation to every individual. A kundali or a horoscope is kala-cakra, or wheel of time. It is like a gigantic clock that we are depicting in a symbolic way for our perception and understanding. If a horoscope would show only karma, then how would it be possible that it could describe lives and activities of liberated beings like avataras and pure devotees, who are not karma bound? Their life is akarma, free of bondage, yet described by Jyotish. We can't say that Lord Caitanya lost his first wife due to his papam - bad activities. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita: kalo'smi loka-ksaya-krt pravriddho "I am time, the great destroyer of the worlds". We can't perceive the time directly - it is very subtle. We perceive it through changes, movements, creation, duration and destruction. It is important to know that not only a symbolic depiction of stars and planets constitutes Jyotisha-vedanga. It also comprises nimitta (omens) and laksanas (bodily characteristics). It is interesting to see how in the Prasna-marga are given different methods of understanding including one's breath from nostrils that would give us a clue to see reality in a more "complete" way. Therefore if we see that all things in material existence are connected together by God in his form of time, we do not need to prove how planets are influencing us or our lives. They are, like Sun and Moon, but it is not that which Jyotish is all about. Jyotish is a divine knowledge of how certain things perceived by us in this creation can make us understand other things. It is like pieces of knowledge that carry meaning of other things. Like words. Planets, stars and other celestial bodies or points are like words which are different parts of speech: noun, pronoun, verb, adverb, adjective, preposition, conjunction and interjection. When connected together, according to proper grammar, they can carry a meaning far more advanced than separated pieces. There are many levels on which that language could be understood. Basic, intermediate, advanced, etc. But more important here is who is speaking for us to understand. Knowledge of that language was given by God to Brahma, Siva and others. Krsna allowed living beings to feel separated form him in the material world, if they wish not to listen to Him and speak to Him, but also while creating this world He gave them means to renew conversation with Him, to understand many things which could help us to live in this world and to leave this world. Now, if Jyotish is a language by using which we can understand what God is speaking to us, and He created it, it is really up to Him to choose what would it be like. What words He chose to use for us to see, what would grammar be like, etc. This is a reason why, coming back to the beginning of this text, your questions reminded me those of my son. Regarding how to prove to somebody validity of Jyotish, it is very difficult, but entirely not due to any Jyotish shortcomings. If we want to understand what somebody is speaking, we have to first believe He exists. If we don't believe God exists and that He speaks, we can't perceive that speach. We would probably take His words for something else. Like astronomers do stare onto stars, but idea that God is there and we could listen to Him through stars and planets would make most of them think we are nuts. Other requirements necessary for good communication and understanding are: faith, trust, empathy; seeking first to understand, then to be understood, etc. I we are not holding faith into somebody, are not willing to invest in the relationship, are not ready to be vulnerable for being really open, etc. then we are not going to listen and understand. Whatever would be communicated won't be actually perceived. Would the person who expects proof be willing to do all this? Being tri-kala-jna - a knower of past, present and future - is very dependent on listening Paramatma from within our heart. That is closely related with purity of our mind, intentions, desires, etc. Being closer to God we can better understand Him and what He meant by saying this or that word, i.e. this or that planetary yoga. Therefore it is quite difficult to expect that somebody who doesn't have any desire to learn that language along with a spiritual culture, could have been easly convinced about "truthfulness" of Jyotish. Another point of view for challenge of "proving" is its intellectual nature. Proof is a process of logical reasoning. We assume something we know, we declare a thesis that we want to "prove" and on the basis of assumptions and accepted standards of reasoning try to persuade that the thesis is reasonable and true. This process is purely Mercurian - it is like chasing one's tail - debilitated Mercury in mystical wisdom of Pisces - when applied to higher truths. All proofs have a lot of assumptions at the bottom, many of them being hidden or we are simply not aware of them. But an assumption is something accepted on faith. And if you want to prove the assumption form the first process of proving, you have to open another another process of proving, which has other assumptions, which would have to be proven again, again, and again. Thus we come to the level of axioms, which are assumptions laying at the bottom of all schools of thinking. Those axioms are not provable, they constitute a borderline of Mercurian, or intellectual knowledge. This is why we can open a process of proving some thesis to somebody who shares with us axioms or assumptions necessary for that proof. Otherwise two people are speaking two different languages. They can't communicate, understand each other, what to speak about proving. What is a proof for one, it is not for the other. Another thing is that a powerful acaryas or avataras, could change axioms of people right on the spot. Like Lord Caitanya, just by embracing someone, would change his heart, and in result of this would change his paradigm or axiom, laying at the basis of one's understanding. That's really impressive proof! Sorry for a quite long text. Hare Krsna! Bhaktivinode Thakur dasa - scorpio1234in Monday, September 30, 2002 7:26 AM Scientific basis for astrology HARE RAMA KRISHNA !!DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER,I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I READ WITH INTEREST ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED UP THE BASICS OF ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A BEGINNER ONLY. I FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOES MOVEMENT OF PLANETS AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS?? WHAT ARE RAHU AND KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHER PLANETS?? WHY NOT THE OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE??I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP.THANKS AND REGARDSSRINIVASAN Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 Answers to your queries in caps below q) This implies that we should take a fatalistic view of life, whereas in Bhagvad Gita we are taught that our destiny is to a large extent shaped by our actions. I would like to have your comments on this. A) YES OUR LIFE IS DETERMINED DUE TO OUR ACTIONS. THAT IS WHY IN THE NEXT LIVE WE REAP THE REWARDS OR BEAR THE PUNISHMENTS. HOW TO AVOID AMNESIA(FORGETTING WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN PAST LIVES), ASTROLOGY ANSWERS THAT AND YOU WOULD KNOW IT ONCE YOU READ CLASSICS. Karma extends over several birth cycles. When you sayAstrology is a tools to understand the Law of Karma.We are only able to see Karma in action in the windowof the present lifetime not in the past births or thefuture births. Is it possible to delve into pastbirths using astrology?? And how do we see the futurebirth?? A) THERE ARE MANY TOOLS AVAILABLE- HAVE PATIENCE AND YOU CAN LEARN MORE ABOUT THEM. NADI IS ONE OF THEM AND I THINK YOU KNOW IT. Is it necessary for a person to believe in God inorder to stop the cycle of birth and death?? Is it notpossible for an atheist who has done a lifetime ofgood deeds to attain Moksha?? Does he have to be bornagain as a believer and then only attain God?? A) THERE ARE SOME CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS. DEFINE AN ATHEIST FIRST THEN WE CAN TELL WHETHER HE IS DOING GOOD DEEDS OR BAD. The question is “Twin babies born within a minute ofeach other having identical planetary positions intheir horoscope, lead totally different lives. One ispoor while the other is rich, one is healthy while theother is chronically ill and so on…”. How is itpossible?? Can you throw light on this? A) YES, TWINS BORN HAVE THE SAME RASI CHART, THEN WHY DID PARASARA RECOMMEND SO MANY DIVISIONAL CHARTS!!. IF YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE ON D-CHARTS AND HOW THEY ARE USEFUL IN INTERPRETING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TWINS AND HOST OF OTHER THINGS, THEN YOU CAN DO VERY WELL TO ATTEND THE WORKSHOP ON D-CHARTS HELD AT HYDERABAD FROM DEC 2-12 2002. ALL THE GURUS WOULD BE THERE AND YOUR DOUBTS WOULD BE CLEARED. regardspartha New DSL Internet Access from SBC &; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 Hi Srinivasan, The below link is a good explanation by Shri PVR Narasimha Rao. http://www.geocities.com/pvr108/050200.htm Thanks and Regards Kumar --- Visti Larsen <vishnu wrote: > Vyam Vyaasadevaaya Namah > > -- > > Dear Srinivasan, > > Shri Visti explained that in order to believe in > Astrology, one has to have belief in God. I have > come > across several people who believe in God but are > skeptics as far as astrology is concerned. I came > across a sceptic recently who asked me this question > for which I was not able to give a convincing reply. > The question is "Twin babies born within a minute of > each other having identical planetary positions in > their horoscope, lead totally different lives. One > is > poor while the other is rich, one is healthy while > the > other is chronically ill and so on.". How is it > possible?? Can you throw light on this? > > Visti: There will be a difference.. Why aren't > you thinking about higher vargas? You said 1 > minute.. well Janma Vighati Graha changes within 24 > seconds! I can give even more precise messurements > which will blow your mind with the preccision > needed. > > Sanjay made this very clear, when in Ireland he > stated that, allthough we can give predictions from > the various rasi, navama etc. We cannot be > completely sure of any predictions before the D-60 > has been rectified! When we have the D-60, we can > calculate the Chandra Kala Nadi (D-150). Or maybe > even more detailed divisions. > > So have no doubt in your mind, that even the > slightest difference in birthtime, will show a > significant change. > > Best wishes > Visti > --- > Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org > ITRANS Font: http://www.aczone.com/itrans/ > Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra: > vedic astrologybphs.zip > > > - > scorpio we > > Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:21 PM > Re: Re: Scientific basis > for astrology > > > HARE RAMA KRISHNA > > Shri Narayana Iyer, > Shri Visti, > Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa, > Shri Ramapriya, > Shri Sarbani Sarkar > Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma > > Thank you for your response to my query on the > scientific basis for Astrology. Thank you for > giving > insights into this matter. After reading your > views, I > would like clarification for the following: > > Shri Narayan Iyer had mentioned that jyothisha > shastra > is all about the Law of Karma. As I understand the > Law > of Karma extends over several birth cycles. When a > person is born he carries over his Papa/Punya > credit > balance from his previous birth into the present > birth. During his lifetime he accrues some > Papa/Punya > by his actions, which changes his credit balance > in > his account. At the time of his birth the position > of > planets (his natal horoscope) indicates how his > life > is going to unfold, including how he will > accumulate > Papa/Punya during the present lifetime. This is > fixed > and nothing can change it. Of course his earlier > Karma > will probably determine the time of his rebirth > and > thereby fix the position of the planets at the > time of > his birth. This implies that we should take a > fatalistic view of life, whereas in Bhagvad Gita > we > are taught that our destiny is to a large extent > shaped by our actions. I would like to have your > comments on this. > > Karma extends over several birth cycles. When you > say > Astrology is a tools to understand the Law of > Karma. > We are only able to see Karma in action in the > window > of the present lifetime not in the past births or > the > future births. Is it possible to delve into past > births using astrology?? And how do we see the > future > birth?? > > Is it necessary for a person to believe in God in > order to stop the cycle of birth and death?? Is it > not > possible for an atheist who has done a lifetime of > good deeds to attain Moksha?? Does he have to be > born > again as a believer and then only attain God?? > > Shri Visti explained that in order to believe in > Astrology, one has to have belief in God. I have > come > across several people who believe in God but are > skeptics as far as astrology is concerned. I came > across a sceptic recently who asked me this > question > for which I was not able to give a convincing > reply. > The question is "Twin babies born within a minute > of > each other having identical planetary positions in > their horoscope, lead totally different lives. One > is > poor while the other is rich, one is healthy while > the > other is chronically ill and so on.". How is it > possible?? Can you throw light on this? > > Vedic astrology is still not very widely accepted > in > the western world even though they do believe in > God > whether He is Jesus or Allah. > > The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that > "..Jyotish is not a science of Karma in a very > meaning > of it" This is a view which is opposite to that f > Shri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me. > > I can understand that planets do not influence our > lives and their positions only indicate the > different > situations in the material world and the planets > themselves do not affect our lives by their > movements. > > Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma explains that Jyothish > is a > statistical science. Ancient sages have found a > correlation between the planetary positions and > the > events in ones life as it unfolds. This seems a > reasonably good explanation but being statistical, > how > good is the correlation and does it involve a > probability of success of prediction?? > > And Shri Ramapriya's explanation is simple - it > works, > so it must be correct!! There can be no argument > against that. > > I look forward to the comments of Respected Gurus > and > members of the group on the above > > Thanks and Regards > Srinivasan > > --- naaraayana_iyer <naaraayana_iyer > wrote: > > <HR> > <html><body> > === message truncated === New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 I will try to give explaination to your queries in the order that they appear. In case of twins, you will find that , though the Natal Horoscope is identical; Navamsha positions of planets differ.these lead to difference in their life pattern. For example Saturn in Libra Navamsha will give resilts of an exalted Saturn whereas Saturn in Scorpio Navamsha will be placed in his enemy's house and would be weak to give favourable results, even if he is well placed in natal horoscope. This is why it is said that where as Natal Horoscope is the body, Navamsha Chart is the life source(Prana).Planets derive their strength from navamsha position.If you study horoscopes of Twins you will find for yourself that this is correct. About your next question, I will deal with that related to my explaination first.Once you understand stastical part you will also understand that predictability depends on the number of variables factored in.These variables factored in case of Jyotish are in excess of about a Trillion, hence the model is as reliable as humanly possible.Add to this the number of data samples representatd by various horoscopes. If your consider only Nadi-granthas the number is in hundreds of thousands.If you look at psephologists and the Data and number of booths they cover while conducting exit polls; you will understand what degree of accuracy was envisaged by the Ancient Seers and why the predictability is so near accurate. Against this take Psephologists who take 600 to 800 voters as data from 120 or so polling booths accross 20 districts and base their predictions on this and we educated people get swayed by it.This miniscule data and very few variables is the reason why they are wrong more times than not. In-so-far as probability of correct prediction is concerned, like stastistics it depends on the interpreter of Data , here the Daivadhyna(Astrologer). This is also precisely learned Gurus tell that you have to follow relogious tenets. This helps keep the mind unbiased in order to be able to predict with a fair degree of accuracy.Please also read the Shloka On first page of every issue of Late B.V. raman's Astrological Magazine. It says that an astrologer can only indicate the robable results of movements of Planets and none but Lord Bramha can predict with certainty. About your query regarding ability of an atheist to be a good astrologer or otherwise.Remember that belief(Shraddha) in even non existence of God is a form of understanding God if you are firm in your belief.In Bhagvadgita, the lord says that he is without beginning and without end. His form is Niramaya, Nirakara.In recent history you will find that Swami Vivekanand was a confirmed atheist till he met Ramakrishna Paramhans.He is the greatest of saint of modern India. But most of so called atheists proclaim to be so because it is fashionable tobe so now-a-days.These very atheists ask for correct Muhurtha for starting their business and for performance of their daughter's marriage.This is not atheim this is hypocracy.Such aetheists would not be able to predict with any accuracy;as they would not have even the belief in their own knowledge. I trust Gurujans will pardon me for my interpretation of the science of Jyotish in modern terms.They would surely understand that our science developed because even Great astrologers like VarahaMihira said that they are elaborating on the knowledge given by ancient sages through their own experience. Chandraashekhara - scorpio we Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:51 PM Re: Re: Scientific basis for astrology HARE RAMA KRISHNAShri Narayana Iyer,Shri Visti,Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa,Shri Ramapriya,Shri Sarbani SarkarShri Chandrasekhar SharmaThank you for your response to my query on thescientific basis for Astrology. Thank you for givinginsights into this matter. After reading your views, Iwould like clarification for the following:Shri Narayan Iyer had mentioned that jyothisha shastrais all about the Law of Karma. As I understand the Lawof Karma extends over several birth cycles. When aperson is born he carries over his Papa/Punya creditbalance from his previous birth into the presentbirth. During his lifetime he accrues some Papa/Punyaby his actions, which changes his credit balance inhis account. At the time of his birth the position ofplanets (his natal horoscope) indicates how his lifeis going to unfold, including how he will accumulatePapa/Punya during the present lifetime. This is fixedand nothing can change it. Of course his earlier Karmawill probably determine the time of his rebirth andthereby fix the position of the planets at the time ofhis birth. This implies that we should take afatalistic view of life, whereas in Bhagvad Gita weare taught that our destiny is to a large extentshaped by our actions. I would like to have yourcomments on this.Karma extends over several birth cycles. When you sayAstrology is a tools to understand the Law of Karma.We are only able to see Karma in action in the windowof the present lifetime not in the past births or thefuture births. Is it possible to delve into pastbirths using astrology?? And how do we see the futurebirth??Is it necessary for a person to believe in God inorder to stop the cycle of birth and death?? Is it notpossible for an atheist who has done a lifetime ofgood deeds to attain Moksha?? Does he have to be bornagain as a believer and then only attain God??Shri Visti explained that in order to believe inAstrology, one has to have belief in God. I have comeacross several people who believe in God but areskeptics as far as astrology is concerned. I cameacross a sceptic recently who asked me this questionfor which I was not able to give a convincing reply.The question is “Twin babies born within a minute ofeach other having identical planetary positions intheir horoscope, lead totally different lives. One ispoor while the other is rich, one is healthy while theother is chronically ill and so on…”. How is itpossible?? Can you throw light on this? Vedic astrology is still not very widely accepted inthe western world even though they do believe in Godwhether He is Jesus or Allah. The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that “……Jyotish is not a science of Karma in a very meaningof it” This is a view which is opposite to that fShri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me.I can understand that planets do not influence ourlives and their positions only indicate the differentsituations in the material world and the planetsthemselves do not affect our lives by their movements.Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma explains that Jyothish is astatistical science. Ancient sages have found acorrelation between the planetary positions and theevents in ones life as it unfolds. This seems areasonably good explanation but being statistical, howgood is the correlation and does it involve aprobability of success of prediction?? And Shri Ramapriya’s explanation is simple – it works,so it must be correct!! There can be no argumentagainst that.I look forward to the comments of Respected Gurus andmembers of the group on the aboveThanks and RegardsSrinivasan--- naaraayana_iyer <naaraayana_iyer > wrote:<HR><html><body><tt>Om Jaya Jagannath<BR>-----------------<BR><BR>Dear Srinivan,<BR><BR>Welcome to SriJagannath Forum. <BR><BR>BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR ASCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR <BR>ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF,BUT FREQUENTLY I <BR>COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED.<BR><BR>Unfortunately, the present state of *Science* hasstill not reached <BR>the stage where they can fully comprehend the workingsof the <BR>Universe! Yet, they have come a long way, ever sinceGalileo was <BR>tortured(or was it put to death??) for stating thatEarth was <BR>spherical in shape!! Scientists are slowly realizingthese subltle <BR>phenomena and are acknowleging, albeit with lot ofreservations.<BR><BR>Most of modern men and scientists, go by the principleof *Seeing is <BR>Believing* or *I need Proof*, which is fantastic andan excellent <BR>attitude. Fact is, we all live on the earth and oursciences etc are <BR>limited to these eartly confines, which are welldefined and <BR>contained. Astrology and allied Occult Sciences workon <BR>Subtle/Ethereal level, where there are no limitations,and cannot be <BR>easily comprehended by our limited organs ofperception.<BR><BR>We have tomes and tomes of Philosophical, Astrological& Tantric <BR>literatures which deal in these subjects. To*directly* realize most <BR>of these texts, one has to have a competent Guru, doour sadhanas <BR>regularly and awaken our dormant kundalini shakti! Ourgreat saints <BR>and tantrics dont go about carrying books and notes,they are the <BR>very embodiemnt of Vedas and Divine knowledge. Due totheir faith, <BR>discipline, effort and proper guidance they realizethe unrealized. <BR>They do doubt these things initially, The just dontstop after <BR>doubting, but they then sincerely explore into theserecondite <BR>domains without any bias!<BR><BR>Yet, you need not be super-educated to understand orbelieve in <BR>them. If you are observant, and watch closely you canbe a witness <BR>to the wonderful phenomenon called Law of Karma. I waslucky, in <BR>that, as a child, my father used to teach me whatKarma is, and how <BR>it affects us in our day-to-day life. He used to givepractical <BR>examples of friends, relatives. We used to takecase-studies , <BR>observe the actions of certain individuals and see howit affects <BR>them later. It was unbelievable to say the least! I amnot claiming <BR>to be a know-it-all, just sharing my experince.<BR><BR>If you ask me what Jyotisha Shastra or for that matterlife is all <BR>about .... all I can say is Law of Karma. For thosewith scientific <BR>temper, this is nothing but Newton's third law ofmotion, which <BR>states: "Ever Action has Equal and OppositeReaction".<BR><BR>When you act(this action is something which most of usidentify our <BR>ego/ahamkara with), we create a debt, which insanskrit is known as <BR>Rna. It is this Rna which ties us up to our earthlyexistence. Then <BR>nature(prakriti) creates a situation which subjects usto deal with <BR>the re-action. This cycle goes on and on. If you dontexperience the <BR>*Equal & Opposite Reaction* during your currentlifetime, rest <BR>assured, it will visit you in your in the next one,till you repay <BR>yoor karmic debts. This is known as Rnanu-bandhana.The bondage of <BR>Karma.<BR><BR>What is fate, after all, nothing but the sum of allour past karmas, <BR>and what are the karmas except the debts to be paid.Nature's wheels <BR>grinds slowly, but they grind very very thoroughly,and nothing <BR>escapes them.<BR><BR>In Jyotisha, we recognize The Nine Planets which arethe agencies <BR>through which Nature gets her job done. Each planetplanets <BR>influences different aspects of our lives. The Sun,for instance, <BR>represents the Soul. The Moon represents the Mind,especially its <BR>intuitive and emotional aspects, etc.<BR><BR>The most important of the Nine Planets is Saturn, theplanet in <BR>charge of Experience - Anubhava. Saturn is the"Son of Sun" in <BR>Jyotish because all experience occurs due to thepresence of the <BR>soul, who is the true experincer. He dishes out whatwe deserve, <BR>based on our karmic accounts, if we have done gooddeeds in our past <BR>lives, then we experience happiness else misery.<BR><BR>Hence, In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna avers: "Renouncethe fruits of your <BR>action". That is how we avoid creating karma forourselves. <BR>Obviously, the question arises, what if we do gooddeeds, why shdn't <BR>we identify with them, why renounce the fruits? Theanswer is, <BR>because karma causes re-birth, and even though theseare good <BR>karmas, we are re-born, to experience the re-action.So whats the <BR>problem? It is because, when we are re-born, we looseknowledge <BR>of our past lives. Look at the rich and famous. Theyhave done <BR>substantial amount of good karmas, and they arere-born into a life <BR>of opulence, then they start wasting away and mirethemselves into <BR>new sets of karmas and take a spiral plunge. Ofcourse,we ourselves <BR>are not exceptions!<BR><BR>Here is where, praying to Ishta Devata is essentialand important. <BR>By surrendering ourselves to our Ishta Devata, we arein essence, <BR>letting our personal deity to control our samskaras,wo we are freed <BR>from current and future debts!<BR><BR>That is why I say, dont bother about convincinganybody. If they <BR>believe, they wont need any convincing, and if theydont, no amount <BR>of convincing will work on them. Often, those whobelieve, have done <BR>astrology in their past lives and its all the karmasacting in this <BR>life.<BR><BR>Finally, we all have our limitations, we have torealize this and <BR>rise above this. Easier said than done. But, Astrologyis an <BR>excellent tool, to understand the Law of Karma. It isa formidable <BR>Science, by which we can also decipher the statementsin Bhagavad <BR>Gita and for that matter all our philosophicalliterature too.<BR><BR>As far as the other questions are concerned, I believeRamapriya & <BR>Visti have answered them. Good Luck on yourvoyage!<BR><BR>Blessings,<BR>Narayan<BR><BR><BR><BR>--- In , "scorpio1234in"<scorpio1234in> wrote:<BR>> HARE RAMA KRISHNA !!<BR>> <BR>> DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER,<BR>> I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND IREAD WITH <BR>INTEREST <BR>> ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKEDUP THE BASICS OF <BR>> ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF ABEGINNER ONLY. I <BR>> FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING ANDINFORMATIVE. BEING AN <BR>> ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFICBASIS FOR <BR>ASTROLOGY, <BR>> NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUTFREQUENTLY I COME <BR>ACROSS <BR>> UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOESMOVEMENT OF PLANETS <BR>> AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS??WHAT ARE RAHU AND <BR>> KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHERPLANETS?? WHY NOT THE <BR>> OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE??<BR>> I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHERRESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS <BR>> GROUP.<BR>> THANKS AND REGARDS<BR>> SRINIVASAN<BR><BR></tt><br><!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --><table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2><tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC><td align=center><font size="-1"color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td></tr><tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF><td align=center width=470><table border=0cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><fontface=arial size=-2></font><br><ahref="http://rd./M=228862.2128520.3581629.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705075991:HM/A=1182732/R=0/*http://adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/990-1736-1039-333" target="_top"><img border="0"src=" "height="250" width="300"></a></td></tr></table></td></tr><tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1src="http://us.adserver./l?M=228862.2128520.3581629.2225242/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1182732/rand=829522799"></td></tr></table><!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --><br><tt>Your use of is subject to the <ahref=""> Termsof Service</a>.</tt></br></body></html>______________________Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV. visit http://in.tv.Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 UUCP, ================== Forwarded by Anton Kuznetsov (2:465/50) ================== Area : X_NETMAIL Date : 03 Oct 02, 22:04 From : Chandrashekhar Sharma, 2:465/50.128 To : Anton Kuznetsov, 2:465/50 Subj : Re: Re: Scientific basis for astrology ======================= BOF - Begin of Forwarding ======================= @RFCID: 20021003210400.10551.qmail @RFC-List-Un: <> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1228059378-1033679040=:9973" --0-1228059378-1033679040=:9973 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-cp866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Shrinivas,I will try to give explaination to your queries in the order that they appear.In case of twins, you will find that , though the Natal Horoscope is identical; Navamsha positions of planets differ.these lead to difference in their life pattern. For example Saturn in Libra Navamsha will give resilts of an exalted Saturn whereas Saturn in Scorpio Navamsha will be placed in his enemy's house and would be weak to give favourable results, even if he is well placed in natal horoscope.This is why it is said that where as Natal Horoscope is the body, Navamsha Chart is the life source(Prana).Planets derive their strength from navamsha position.If you study horoscopes of Twins you will find for yourself that this is correct. About your next question, I will deal with that related to my explaination first.Once you understand stastical part you will also understand that predictability depends on the number of variables factored in.These variables factored in case of Jyotish are in excess of about a Trillion, hence the model is as reliable as humanly possible.Add to this the number of data samples representatd by various horoscopes. If your consider only Nadi-granthas the number is in hundreds of thousands.If you look at psephologists and the Data and number of booths they cover while conducting exit polls; you will understand what degree of accuracy was envisaged by the Ancient Seers and why the predictability is so near accurate. Against this take Psephologists who take 600 to 800 voters as data from 120 or so polling booths accross 20 districts and base their predictions on this and we educated people get swayed by it.This miniscule data and very few variables is the reason why they are wrong more times than not. In-so-far as probability of correct prediction is concerned, like stastistics it depends on the interpreter of Data , here the Daivadhyna(Astrologer). This is also precisely learned Gurus tell that you have to follow relogious tenets. This helps keep the mind unbiased in order to be able to predict with a fair degree of accuracy.Please also read the Shloka On first page of every issue of Late B.V. raman's Astrological Magazine. It says that an astrologer can only indicate the robable results of movements of Planets and none but Lord Bramha can predict with certainty. About your query regarding ability of an atheist to be a good astrologer or otherwise.Remember that belief(Shraddha) in even non existence of God is a form of understanding God if you are firm in your belief.In Bhagvadgita, the lord says that he is without beginning and without end. His form is Niramaya, Nirakara.In recent history you will find that Swami Vivekanand was a confirmed atheist till he met Ramakrishna Paramhans.He is the greatest of saint of modern India. But most of so called atheists proclaim to be so because it is fashionable tobe so now-a-days.These very atheists ask for correct Muhurtha for starting their business and for performance of their daughter's marriage.This is not atheim this is hypocracy.Such aetheists would not be able to predict with any accuracy;as they would not have even the belief in their own knowledge. I trust Gurujans will pardon me for my interpretation of the science of Jyotish in modern terms.They would surely understand that our science developed because even Great astrologers like VarahaMihira said that they are elaborating on the knowledge given by ancient sages through their own experience.Chandraashekhara ----- Original Message ----- scorpio we Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:51 PMRe: Re: Scientific basis for astrology HARE RAMA KRISHNA Shri Narayana Iyer, Shri Visti, Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa, Shri Ramapriya, Shri Sarbani Sarkar Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma Thank you for your response to my query on the scientific basis for Astrology. Thank you for giving insights into this matter. After reading your views, I would like clarification for the following: Shri Narayan Iyer had mentioned that jyothisha shastra is all about the Law of Karma. As I understand the Law of Karma extends over several birth cycles. When a person is born he carries over his Papa/Punya credit balance from his previous birth into the present birth. During his lifetime he accrues some Papa/Punya by his actions, which changes his credit balance in his account. At the time of his birth the position of planets (his natal horoscope) indicates how his life is going to unfold, including how he will accumulate Papa/Punya during the present lifetime. This is fixed and nothing can change it. Of course his earlier Karma will probably determine the time of his rebirth and thereby fix the position of the planets at the time of his birth. This implies that we should take a fatalistic view of life, whereas in Bhagvad Gita we are taught that our destiny is to a large extent shaped by our actions. I would like to have your comments on this. Karma extends over several birth cycles. When you say Astrology is a tools to understand the Law of Karma. We are only able to see Karma in action in the window of the present lifetime not in the past births or the future births. Is it possible to delve into past births using astrology?? And how do we see the future birth?? Is it necessary for a person to believe in God in order to stop the cycle of birth and death?? Is it not possible for an atheist who has done a lifetime of good deeds to attain Moksha?? Does he have to be born again as a believer and then only attain God?? Shri Visti explained that in order to believe in Astrology, one has to have belief in God. I have come across several people who believe in God but are skeptics as far as astrology is concerned. I came across a sceptic recently who asked me this question for which I was not able to give a convincing reply. The question is ?Twin babies born within a minute of each other having identical planetary positions in their horoscope, lead totally different lives. One is poor while the other is rich, one is healthy while the other is chronically ill and so on…”. How is it possible?? Can you throw light on this? Vedic astrology is still not very widely accepted in the western world even though they do believe in God whether He is Jesus or Allah. The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that ?……Jyotish is not a science of Karma in a very meaning of it” This is a view which is opposite to that f Shri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me. I can understand that planets do not influence our lives and their positions only indicate the different situations in the material world and the planets themselves do not affect our lives by their movements. Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma explains that Jyothish is a statistical science. Ancient sages have found a correlation between the planetary positions and the events in ones life as it unfolds. This seems a reasonably good explanation but being statistical, how good is the correlation and does it involve a probability of success of prediction?? And Shri Ramapriya’s explanation is simple – it works, so it must be correct!! There can be no argument against that. I look forward to the comments of Respected Gurus and members of the group on the above Thanks and Regards Srinivasan ~~~ naaraayana_iyer <naaraayana_iyer wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Om Jaya Jagannath<BR> -----------------<BR> <BR> Dear Srinivan,<BR> <BR> Welcome to SriJagannath Forum. <BR> <BR> BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR <BR> ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I <BR> COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED.<BR> <BR> Unfortunately, the present state of *Science* has still not reached <BR> the stage where they can fully comprehend the workings of the <BR> Universe! Yet, they have come a long way, ever since Galileo was <BR> tortured(or was it put to death??) for stating that Earth was <BR> spherical in shape!! Scientists are slowly realizing these subltle <BR> phenomena and are acknowleging, albeit with lot of reservations.<BR> <BR> Most of modern men and scientists, go by the principle of *Seeing is <BR> Believing* or *I need Proof*, which is fantastic and an excellent <BR> attitude. Fact is, we all live on the earth and our sciences etc are <BR> limited to these eartly confines, which are well defined and <BR> contained. Astrology and allied Occult Sciences work on <BR> Subtle/Ethereal level, where there are no limitations, and cannot be <BR> easily comprehended by our limited organs of perception.<BR> <BR> We have tomes and tomes of Philosophical, Astrological & Tantric <BR> literatures which deal in these subjects. To *directly* realize most <BR> of these texts, one has to have a competent Guru, do our sadhanas <BR> regularly and awaken our dormant kundalini shakti! Our great saints <BR> and tantrics dont go about carrying books and notes, they are the <BR> very embodiemnt of Vedas and Divine knowledge. Due to their faith, <BR> discipline, effort and proper guidance they realize the unrealized. <BR> They do doubt these things initially, The just dont stop after <BR> doubting, but they then sincerely explore into these recondite <BR> domains without any bias!<BR> <BR> Yet, you need not be super-educated to understand or believe in <BR> them. If you are observant, and watch closely you can be a witness <BR> to the wonderful phenomenon called Law of Karma. I was lucky, in <BR> that, as a child, my father used to teach me what Karma is, and how <BR> it affects us in our day-to-day life. He used to give practical <BR> examples of friends, relatives. We used to take case-studies , <BR> observe the actions of certain individuals and see how it affects <BR> them later. It was unbelievable to say the least! I am not claiming <BR> to be a know-it-all, just sharing my experince.<BR> <BR> If you ask me what Jyotisha Shastra or for that matter life is all <BR> about .... all I can say is Law of Karma. For those with scientific <BR> temper, this is nothing but Newton's third law of motion, which <BR> states: "Ever Action has Equal and Opposite Reaction".<BR> <BR> When you act(this action is something which most of us identify our <BR> ego/ahamkara with), we create a debt, which in sanskrit is known as <BR> Rna. It is this Rna which ties us up to our earthly existence. Then <BR> nature(prakriti) creates a situation which subjects us to deal with <BR> the re-action. This cycle goes on and on. If you dont experience the <BR> *Equal & Opposite Reaction* during your current lifetime, rest <BR> assured, it will visit you in your in the next one, till you repay <BR> yoor karmic debts. This is known as Rnanu-bandhana. The bondage of <BR> Karma.<BR> <BR> What is fate, after all, nothing but the sum of all our past karmas, <BR> and what are the karmas except the debts to be paid. Nature's wheels <BR> grinds slowly, but they grind very very thoroughly, and nothing <BR> escapes them.<BR> <BR> In Jyotisha, we recognize The Nine Planets which are the agencies <BR> through which Nature gets her job done. Each planet planets <BR> influences different aspects of our lives. The Sun, for instance, <BR> represents the Soul. The Moon represents the Mind, especially its <BR> intuitive and emotional aspects, etc.<BR> <BR> The most important of the Nine Planets is Saturn, the planet in <BR> charge of Experience - Anubhava. Saturn is the "Son of Sun" in <BR> Jyotish because all experience occurs due to the presence of the <BR> soul, who is the true experincer. He dishes out what we deserve, <BR> based on our karmic accounts, if we have done good deeds in our past <BR> lives, then we experience happiness else misery.<BR> <BR> Hence, In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna avers: "Renounce the fruits of your <BR> action". That is how we avoid creating karma for ourselves. <BR> Obviously, the question arises, what if we do good deeds, why shdn't <BR> we identify with them, why renounce the fruits? The answer is, <BR> because karma causes re-birth, and even though these are good <BR> karmas, we are re-born, to experience the re-action. So whats the <BR> problem? It is because, when we are re-born, we loose knowledge <BR> of our past lives. Look at the rich and famous. They have done <BR> substantial amount of good karmas, and they are re-born into a life <BR> of opulence, then they start wasting away and mire themselves into <BR> new sets of karmas and take a spiral plunge. Ofcourse, we ourselves <BR> are not exceptions!<BR> <BR> Here is where, praying to Ishta Devata is essential and important. <BR> By surrendering ourselves to our Ishta Devata, we are in essence, <BR> letting our personal deity to control our samskaras, wo we are freed <BR> from current and future debts!<BR> <BR> That is why I say, dont bother about convincing anybody. If they <BR> believe, they wont need any convincing, and if they dont, no amount <BR> of convincing will work on them. Often, those who believe, have done <BR> astrology in their past lives and its all the karmas acting in this <BR> life.<BR> <BR> Finally, we all have our limitations, we have to realize this and <BR> rise above this. Easier said than done. But, Astrology is an <BR> excellent tool, to understand the Law of Karma. It is a formidable <BR> Science, by which we can also decipher the statements in Bhagavad <BR> Gita and for that matter all our philosophical literature too.<BR> <BR> As far as the other questions are concerned, I believe Ramapriya & <BR> Visti have answered them. Good Luck on your voyage!<BR> <BR> Blessings,<BR> Narayan<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> ~~~ In , "scorpio1234in" <scorpio1234in> wrote:<BR> > HARE RAMA KRISHNA !!<BR> > <BR> > DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER,<BR> > I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I READ WITH <BR> INTEREST <BR> > ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED UP THE BASICS OF <BR> > ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A BEGINNER ONLY. I <BR> > FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BEING AN <BR> > ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR <BR> ASTROLOGY, <BR> > NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME <BR> ACROSS <BR> > UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOES MOVEMENT OF PLANETS <BR> > AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS?? WHAT ARE RAHU AND <BR> > KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHER PLANETS?? WHY NOT THE <BR> > OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE??<BR> > I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS <BR> > GROUP.<BR> > THANKS AND REGARDS<BR> > SRINIVASAN<BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font face=arial size=-2></font><br><a href="http://rd./M=228862.2128520.3581629.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705075\ 991:HM/ A =1182732/R=0/* of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> ______________________ Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV. visit http://in.tv.''>http://in.tv.'>http://in.tv. Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. --0-1228059378-1033679040=:9973 Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <html><body> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Shrinivas,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I will try to give explaination to your queries in <DIV> the order that they appear.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In case of twins, you will find that , though the <DIV> Natal Horoscope is identical; Navamsha positions of planets differ.these lead to difference in their life pattern. For example Saturn in Libra Navamsha will give resilts of an exalted Saturn whereas Saturn in Scorpio Navamsha will be placed in his enemy's house and would be weak to give favourable results, even if he is well placed in natal horoscope.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is why it is said that where as Natal <DIV> Horoscope is the body, Navamsha Chart is the life source(Prana).Planets derive their strength from navamsha position.If you study horoscopes of Twins you will find for yourself that this is correct.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>About your next question, I will deal with that <DIV> related to my explaination first.Once you understand stastical part you will also understand that predictability depends on the number of variables factored in.These variables factored in case of Jyotish are in excess of about a Trillion, hence the model is as reliable as humanly possible.Add to this the number of data samples representatd by various horoscopes. If your consider only Nadi-granthas the number is in hundreds of thousands.If you look at psephologists and the Data and number of booths they cover while conducting exit polls; you will understand what degree of accuracy was envisaged by the Ancient Seers and why the predictability is so near accurate.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Against this take Psephologists who take 600 <DIV> to 800 voters as data from 120 or so polling booths accross 20 districts and base their predictions on this and we educated people get swayed by it.This miniscule data and very few variables is the reason why they are wrong more times than not.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In-so-far as probability of correct prediction is concerned, like stastistics it depends on the interpreter of Data , here the Daivadhyna(Astrologer). This is also precisely learned Gurus tell that you have to follow relogious tenets. This helps keep the mind unbiased in order to be able to predict with a fair degree of accuracy.Please also read the Shloka On first page of every issue of Late B.V. raman's Astrological Magazine. It says that an astrologer can only indicate the robable results of movements of Planets and none but Lord Bramha can predict with certainty.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>About your query regarding ability of an atheist <DIV> to be a good astrologer or otherwise.Remember that belief(Shraddha) in even non existence of God is a form of understanding God if you are firm in your belief.In Bhagvadgita, the lord says that he is without beginning and without end. His form is Niramaya, Nirakara.In recent history you will find that Swami Vivekanand was a confirmed atheist till he met Ramakrishna Paramhans.He is the greatest of saint of modern India. But most of so called atheists proclaim to be so because it is fashionable tobe so now-a-days.These very atheists ask for correct Muhurtha for starting their business and for performance of their daughter's marriage.This is not atheim this is hypocracy.Such aetheists would not be able to predict with any accuracy;as they would not have even the belief in their own knowledge.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I trust Gurujans will pardon me for my <DIV> interpretation of the science of Jyotish in modern terms.They would surely understand that our science developed because even Great astrologers like VarahaMihira said that they are elaborating on the knowledge given by ancient sages through their own experience.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chandraashekhara</FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B></B> <A title=scorpio1234in href="scorpio1234in">scorpio we</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title= href=""></A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:51 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re: Scientific basis for astrology</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><TT>HARE RAMA KRISHNA<BR><BR>Shri Narayana Iyer,<BR>Shri <DIV><BR></DIV><TT> Visti,<BR>Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa,<BR>Shri Ramapriya,<BR>Shri Sarbani Sarkar<BR>Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma<BR><BR>Thank you for your response to my query on the<BR>scientific basis for Astrology. Thank you for giving<BR>insights into the<BR> this matter. After reading your views, I<BR>would like clarification for the following:<BR><BR>Shri Narayan Iyer had mentioned that jyothisha shastra<BR>is all about the Law of Karma. As I understand the Law<BR>of Karma extends over several birth cycles. When a<BR>person is born he carries over his Papa/Punya credit<BR>balance from his previous birth into the present<BR>birth. During his lifetime he accrues some Papa/Punya<BR>by his actions, which changes his credit balance in<BR>his account. At the time of his birth the position of<BR>planets (his natal horoscope) indicates how his life<BR>is going to unfold, including how he will accumulate<BR>Papa/Punya during the present lifetime. This is fixed<BR>and nothing can change it. Of course his earlier Karma<BR>will probably determine the time of his rebirth and<BR>thereby fix the position of the planets at the time of<BR>his birth. This implies that we should take a<BR>fatalistic view of life, whereas in Bhagvad Gita we<BR>are taught that our a<BR> destiny is to a large extent<BR>shaped by our actions. I would like to have your<BR>comments on this.<BR><BR>Karma extends over several birth cycles. When you say<BR>Astrology is a tools to understand the Law of Karma.<BR>We are only able to see Karma in action in the window<BR>of the present lifetime not in the past births or the<BR>future births. Is it possible to delve into past<BR>births using astrology?? And how do we see the future<BR>birth??<BR><BR>Is it necessary for a person to believe in God in<BR>order to stop the cycle of birth and death?? Is it not<BR>possible for an atheist who has done a lifetime of<BR>good deeds to attain Moksha?? Doe s he have to be born<BR>again as a believer and then only attain God??<BR><BR>Shri Visti explained that in order to believe in<BR>Astrology, one has to have belief in God. I have come<BR>across several people who believe in God but are<BR>skeptics as far as astrology is concerned. I came<BR>across a sceptic recently who asked me this question<BR>for which I was not able to give a convincing reply.<BR>The question is õTwin babies born within a minute of<BR>each other having identical planetary positions in<BR>their horoscope, lead totally different lives. One is<BR>poor while the in<BR> other is rich, one is healthy while the<BR>other is chronically ill and so onåæ. How is it<BR>possible?? Can you throw light on this? <BR><BR>Vedic astrology is still it<BR> not very widely accepted in<BR>the western world even though they do believe in God<BR>whether He is Jesus or Allah. <BR><BR>The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that <BR>õååJyotish is not a science of Karma in a very meaning<BR>of itæ This is a view which is opposite to that f<BR>Shri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me.<BR><BR>I can understand that planets do not influence our<BR>lives and me.<BR><BR> their positions only indicate the different<BR>situations in the material world and the planets<BR>themselves do not affect our lives by their movements.<BR><BR>Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma explains that Jyothish is a<BR>statistical science. Ancient sages have found a<BR>correlation between the planetary positions and the<BR>events in ones life as it unfolds. This seems a<BR>reasonably good explanation but being statistical, how<BR>good is the correlation and does it involve a<BR>probability of success how<BR> of prediction?? <BR><BR>And Shri Ramapriyaôs explanation is simple ã it works,<BR>so it must be correct!! There can be no argument<BR>against that.<BR><BR>I look forward to the comments of Respected Gurus and<BR>members of the group on the above<BR><BR>Thanks and Regards<BR>Srinivasan<BR><BR><BR><BR><B R><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- naaraayana_iyer <naaraayana_iyer> R>wrote:<BR><BR><HR><BR><html><body><BR><BR><BR><tt><BR>\ Om R> Jaya R>Jagannath<BR><BR>-----------------<BR><BR><BR><BR>Dear Srinivan,<BR><BR><BR><BR>Welcome to SriJagannath Forum. <BR><BR><BR><BR>BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A<BR>SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR <BR><BR>ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF,<BR>BUT FREQUENTLY I <BR><BR>COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Unfortunately, the present state of *Science* has<BR>still not reached <BR><BR>the stage where they can fully has<BR> comprehend the workings<BR>of the <BR><BR>Universe! Yet, they have come a long way, ever since<BR>Galileo was <BR><BR>tortured(or was it put to death??) for stating that<BR>Earth was <BR><BR>spherical in shape!! Scientists are slowly realizing<BR>these subltle <BR><BR>phenomena and are acknowleging, albeit with lot of<BR>reservations.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Most of modern men and scientists, go by the principle<BR>of *Seeing is <BR><BR>Believing* or *I need Proof*, which is fantastic and<BR>an excellent <BR><BR>attitude. Fact is, we all live on the earth and our<BR>sciences etc are <BR><BR>limited to these eartly confines, which are well<BR>defined and <BR><BR>contained. Astrology and allied Occult Sciences work<BR>on <BR><BR>Subtle/Ethereal level, where there are no work<BR> limitations,<BR>and cannot be <BR><BR>easily comprehended by our limited organs of<BR>perception.<BR><BR><BR><BR>We have tomes and tomes of of<BR> Philosophical, Astrological<BR>& Tantric <BR><BR>literatures which deal in these subjects. To<BR>*directly* realize most <BR><BR>of these texts, one has to have a competent Guru, do<BR>our sadhanas <BR><BR>regularly and awaken our dormant kundalini shakti! Our<BR>g reat saints <BR><BR>and tantrics dont go about carrying books and notes,<BR>they are the <BR><BR>very embodiemnt of Vedas and Divine knowledge. Due to<BR>their faith, <BR><BR>discipline, effort and proper guidance they realize<BR>the unrealized. <BR><BR>They do doubt these things initially, The just dont<BR>stop after <BR><BR>doubting, but they then sincerely explore into these<BR>recondite <BR><BR>domains without any bias!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Yet, you need not be super-educated to understand or<BR>believe in <BR><BR>them. If you are observant, and watch closely or<BR> you can<BR>be a witness <BR><BR>to the wonderful phenomenon called Law of can<BR> Karma. I was<BR>lucky, in <BR><BR>that, as a child, my father used to teach me what<BR>Karma is, and how <BR><BR>it affects us in our day-to-day life. what<BR> He used to give<BR>practical <BR><BR>examples of friends, relatives. We used to take<BR>case-studies , <BR><BR>observe the actions of certain take<BR> individuals and see how<BR>it affects <BR><BR>them later. It was unbelievable to say the least! I am<BR>not claiming <BR><BR>to be a know-it-all, just sharing my experince.<BR><BR><BR><BR>If you ask me what Jyotisha Shastra or for that matter<BR>life is all <BR><BR>about .... all I can say is Law of Karma. For those<BR>with scientific <BR><BR>temper, this is nothing but Newton's third law of<BR>motion, which <BR><BR>states: "Ever Action has Equal and Opposite<BR>Reaction".<BR><BR><BR><BR>When you act(this action is something which most of us<BR>identify our <BR><BR>ego/ahamkara with), we create a debt, which in<BR>sanskrit is known as <BR><BR>Rna. It is this Rna which ties us up to our earthly<BR>existence. Then <BR><BR>nature(prakriti) creates a situation which subjects us<BR>to deal with <BR><BR>the re-action. This cycle goes on and on. If you dont <BR>experience the <BR><BR>*Equal & Opposite Reaction* during your current<BR>lifetime, rest <BR><BR>assured, it will visit you in your in the next one,<BR>till you repay <BR><BR>yoor karmic debts. This is known as Rnanu-bandhana.<BR>The bondage of <BR><BR>Karma.<BR><BR><BR><BR>What is fate, after all, nothing but the sum of all<BR>our past karmas, <BR><BR>and what are the karmas except the debts to be paid.<BR>Nature's wheels <BR><BR>grinds slowly, but they grind very very thoroughly,<BR>and nothing <BR><BR>escapes them.<BR><BR><BR><BR>In Jyotisha, we recognize The Nine Planets which are<BR>the agencies <BR><BR>through which Nature gets her job done. Each planet<BR>planets <BR><BR>influences different aspects of our lives. The Sun,<BR>for instance, <BR><BR>represents the Soul. The Moon represents Sun,<BR> the Mind,<BR>especially its <BR><BR>intuitive and emotional aspects, etc.<BR><BR><BR><BR>The most important of the Nine Planets is Saturn, the<BR>planet in <BR><BR>charge of Experience - Anubhava. Saturn is the<BR>"Son of Sun" in <BR><BR>Jyotish because all the<BR> experience occurs due to the<BR>presence of the <BR><BR>soul, who is the true experincer. He dishes out what<BR>we deserve, <BR><BR>based on our karmic accounts, if we have done good<BR>deeds in our past <BR><BR>lives, then we experience happiness else misery.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hence, In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna avers: "Renounce<BR>the fruits of your <BR><BR>action". That is how we avoid creating karma for<BR>ourselves. <BR><BR>Obviously, the question arises, what if we do good<BR>deeds, why shdn't <BR><BR>we identify with them, why renounce the fruits? The<BR>answer is, <BR><BR>because karma causes re-birth, and even though these<BR>are good <BR><BR>karmas, we are re-born, to experienc e the re-action.<BR>So whats the <BR><BR>problem? It is because, when we are re-born, we loose<BR>knowledge <BR><BR>of our past lives. Look at the rich and famous. They<BR>have done <BR><BR>substantial amount of good karmas, and they are<BR>re-born into a life <BR><BR>of opulence, then they start wasting are<BR> away and mire<BR>themselves into <BR><BR>new sets of karmas and take a spiral mire<BR> plunge. Ofcourse,<BR>we ourselves <BR><BR>are not exceptions!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Here is where, praying to Ishta Devata is essential<BR>and important. <BR><BR>By surrendering ourselves to our Ishta Devata, we are<BR>in essence, <BR><BR>letting our personal deity to control our samskaras,<BR>wo we are freed <BR><BR>from current and future debts!<BR><BR><BR><BR>That is why I say, dont bother about convincing<BR>anybody. If they <BR><BR>believe, they wont need any convincing, and if they<BR>dont, no amount <BR><BR>of convincing will work on them. Often, those who<BR>believe, have done <BR><BR>astrology in their past lives and its all the karmas<BR>acting in this <BR><BR>life.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Finally, we all have our limitations, we have to<BR>realize this and <BR><BR>rise above this. Easier said than done. But, Astrology<BR>is an <BR><BR>excellent tool, to understand the Law of Karma. It is<BR>a formidable <BR><BR>Science, by which we can also decipher the statements<BR>in Bhagavad <BR><BR>Gita and for that matter all our philosophical<BR>literature too.<BR><BR><BR><BR>As far as the other questions are concerned, I believe<BR>Ramapriya & <BR><BR>Visti have answered them. Good Luck on your<BR>voyage!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Blessings,<BR><BR>Narayan<BR\ ><BR > <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>, "scorpio1234in"<BR><scorpio1234in> wrot e:<BR><BR>> HARE RAMA KRISHNA !!<BR><BR>> <BR><BR>> DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER,<BR><BR>> I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I<BR>READ WITH <BR><BR>INTEREST <BR><BR>> ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED<BR>UP THE BASICS OF <BR><BR>> ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A<BR>BEGINNER ONLY. I <BR><BR>> FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND<BR>INFORMATIVE. BEING AN <BR><BR>> ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC<BR>BASIS FOR <BR><BR>ASTROLOGY, <BR><BR>> NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT<BR>FREQUENTLY I COME <BR><BR>ACROSS <BR><BR>> UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOES<BR>MOVEMENT OF PLANETS <BR><BR>> AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS??<BR>WHAT ARE RAHU AND <BR><BR>> KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHER<BR>PLANETS?? WHY NOT THE <BR><BR>> OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE??<BR><BR>> I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER<BR>RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS <BR><BR>> GROUP.<BR><BR>> THANKS AND REGARDS<BR><BR>> SRINIVASAN<BR><BR><BR><BR></tt><BR><BR><br><BR><BR><!\ -- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --><BR><BR><table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2><BR><tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC><BR><td align=center><font size="-1"<BR>color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td><BR></tr><BR><tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF><BR><td align=center width=470><table border=0<BR>cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font<BR>face=arial size=-2></font><br><a<BR>href="<A href="http://rd./M=228862.2128520.3581629.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705075\ 991:HM/ A =1182732/R=0/* gt;Yaho o ! Terms<BR>of Service</a>.</tt><BR></br><BR><BR></body></html><B\ R><BR>< B R>______________________<BR>Mi\ ssed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV.<BR> visit <A href="http://in.tv.">http://in.tv.</A><BR></TT><BR><BR><TT>You\ r use of is subject to the <A href=""> Terms of Service</A>.</TT> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p><p><br><hr size=1><a href="http://uk./mail/tagline_xtra/?http://uk.docs./mail_stora\''>http://uk.docs./mail_stora\'>http://uk.docs./mail_stora\ ge.html " ><b><font face="Arial" size="2">Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits ><b> your needs.</font></b></a><br> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td align=center><font face=arial size=-2></font><br><a href="http://rd./M=233351.2428261.3848243.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705082\ 690:HM/ A =1213956/R=0/* </br> </body></html> --0-1228059378-1033679040=:9973-- ======================== EOF - End Of Forwarding ======================== Anthony AKA Vedavrata http://tony.donetsk.ua/''>http://tony.donetsk.ua/'>http://tony.donetsk.ua/ --- Stop genetic manipulation! * Origin: Om Gurave Namaha (2:465/50) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 UUCP, ================== Forwarded by Anton Kuznetsov (2:465/50) ================== Area : X_NETMAIL Date : 04 Oct 02, 00:12 From : Sanjay Rath, 2:465/50.128 To : Anton Kuznetsov, 2:465/50 Subj : RE: Re: Scientific basis for astrology ======================= BOF - Begin of Forwarding ======================= @RFCID: MFENKLICGBBGHPHAJDLHKENHCFAA.srath @RFC-Importance: Normal @RFC-List-Un: <> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C26B3A.AFF269D0" ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C26B3A.AFF269D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-cp866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Om Gurave Namah Dear Bhakti Vinode Thankur, Jaya Jagannath. The definition is what we say as "the what , how and when of an event". The "What of the event or the event definition" is intricately linked to Karma and the cycle of rebirth where the anubhava (experiences) that the Mana & Atma have to undergo are based on (a) Past Karma manifestation which is Karma and (b) Iccha Shakti, with the latter being dependant on a host of factors including Gyana, bhakti and a host of other factors. In Jyotish terminology, this is the Lagna & Graha factors playing in various signs and houses (and affecting the experience of the Atma) and in various nakshatra (and affecting the experiences for the Mana). The Purusha and Chaitanya are better words to explain this in a nutshell. The "How of the event" relates to its manifestation in this world. This is the Arudha lagna and the various Arudha, varnada, Special ascendants and all other illusionarey bodies including illusionary planets (Upagraha). The how is linked to the way Prakriti with her three Guna will manifest through the tatwa etc. The experience will reach the Mana through the five indriya's and this can be happy or sad depending on our temporal perception of what the How should have been (the anticipation or expectation of an event or the natural conditioning for receiving perceptions related to the event). For example, a person who fells he has done well in an exam finds he has failed, this news or event reaches him through various possible sources, and the methodology of these sources influencing his indriyas is the How of the event. Finally the When and this is dependant on the Mana or what we call as DASA. This is what jyotish is all about. The best way is to ask oneself: (a) What is going to happen, (b) How will it happen, and © When will it happen? Cutting this short. Just grow on this seed. Best Wishes Sanjay BMG [bmg] Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:58 PM Re: Re: Scientific basis for astrology Dear Srinivasan "The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that ?……Jyotish is not a science of Karma in a very meaning of it” This is a view which is opposite to that f Shri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me." Please, drop the "Shri" - I am not deserving it. I am more simple. Dasa is enough. Your confusion is natural. There are many different approaches to astrology. I suppose it is due to different needs of people, their world-view. Everybody approaches it form different direction and point of departure. Just like in Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that there are four general classes of people who are seeking His association: those searching for Absolute Truth, curious or inquisitive, those looking for wealth and finally those who are seeking relief from suffering. Also He said about so many different characteristics of people regarding their social status or varna, their ashrama or their individual situation in society (order of life), personalists or impersonalists, etc. He is showing to all of them so many aspects and different views of His personality, characteristics and incarnations. So, people are confused. The same is with jyotish. It is so vast and it has so many divisions, that different people are focusing on those ascpects of it, which are most interesting to them, according to their desire and automatically to their ability to understand or focus of their attention. I think that it is not difficult to see that Jyotish is primarily predictive. It allows to infer about past, present and future from different kinds of observations: like symbolic picture of the sky, nimitta - omens, laksanas - bodily characteristics, and many other kinds of observations described for example in Prasna-marga - all of them connected with a specific point in time: time of birth, time of different events, time of query, etc. What most classics of Jyotish describe are many "results" or "consequences" of this or that divinatory fact: yoga in a horoscope, direction from which the querist approaches an astrologer, what part of body he touches while asking and what sound the querists starts his question with, or from which nostril astrologer's breath comes out on Thursday! So, mostly what you get is a specific observation or fact in a certain time infers some other event or state. That is primary role of astrology, and it is what all the Jyotish classics are elaborating about. Seeing it form this point you won't be confused in opposition to seeing Jyotish as describing karma, while you will notice it also describes facts of life of liberated entities like God, His avataras, expansions, and also other liberated jivatma-living beings, whose existence is akarma, or free of karmic bondage to this world. But at the same time there are many places in Jyotish clsssics where there are explanations of past events or deeds which could be or were the causes of the specific situation in the life of a person: firstly the pattern of sky during - for example - his birth, and secondly specific event or state in his life. That's why I wrote: "Jyotish is not a science of karma in a VERY meaning of it. It is very close, but it is MORE than that." It means, that it includes karma, but it is wider, bigger, and contains more meaning that you could find in that karma concept. Therefore the difference between the view presented by Narayana Iyer and that of mine, is a difference between an event and a cause of it. I say Jyotish is primarily about events, and he says Jyotish is about causes of events. It means you could fix your attention on karma when using astrology, and it is OK, if karma is all that you are interested in for now. But if you widen your interest to free will, God's supreme will, His merciful nature in opposition to His sometimes fearful aspect of Kala (time) and seemengly impersonal fate-inflicting severe judge or punisher of the world, you might then find a different picture of Jyotish, its meaning in your life, and the way you could use it for spiritual and emotional benefit of others. And this is THE VERY MEANING of Jyotish I aspire to myself and also try to inspire others to. The horoscope, or picture of sky, is the Visvarupa - or God's cosmic form - in a mini version in comparison to that shown by Krsna to Arjuna, and super-mini in comparison to the real Visvarupa, we can't see. By meditating on it with this awareness, I believe, one can attain much more benefit, than by undestanding it only as Yamaraja's diary seen through a key-hole. See the second chapter of Brhat Parasara Hora Sastra for some more inspiration in this direction. Greetings, Bhaktivinode Thakur dasa - scorpio we Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:21 PM Re: Re: Scientific basis for astrology HARE RAMA KRISHNA Shri Narayana Iyer, Shri Visti, Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa, Shri Ramapriya, Shri Sarbani Sarkar Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma Thank you for your response to my query on the scientific basis for Astrology. Thank you for giving insights into this matter. After reading your views, I would like clarification for the following: Shri Narayan Iyer had mentioned that jyothisha shastra is all about the Law of Karma. As I understand the Law of Karma extends over several birth cycles. When a person is born he carries over his Papa/Punya credit balance from his previous birth into the present birth. During his lifetime he accrues some Papa/Punya by his actions, which changes his credit balance in his account. At the time of his birth the position of planets (his natal horoscope) indicates how his life is going to unfold, including how he will accumulate Papa/Punya during the present lifetime. This is fixed and nothing can change it. Of course his earlier Karma will probably determine the time of his rebirth and thereby fix the position of the planets at the time of his birth. This implies that we should take a fatalistic view of life, whereas in Bhagvad Gita we are taught that our destiny is to a large extent shaped by our actions. I would like to have your comments on this. Karma extends over several birth cycles. When you say Astrology is a tools to understand the Law of Karma. We are only able to see Karma in action in the window of the present lifetime not in the past births or the future births. Is it possible to delve into past births using astrology?? And how do we see the future birth?? Is it necessary for a person to believe in God in order to stop the cycle of birth and death?? Is it not possible for an atheist who has done a lifetime of good deeds to attain Moksha?? Does he have to be born again as a believer and then only attain God?? Shri Visti explained that in order to believe in Astrology, one has to have belief in God. I have come across several people who believe in God but are skeptics as far as astrology is concerned. I came across a sceptic recently who asked me this question for which I was not able to give a convincing reply. The question is ?Twin babies born within a minute of each other having identical planetary positions in their horoscope, lead totally different lives. One is poor while the other is rich, one is healthy while the other is chronically ill and so on…”. How is it possible?? Can you throw light on this? Vedic astrology is still not very widely accepted in the western world even though they do believe in God whether He is Jesus or Allah. The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that ?……Jyotish is not a science of Karma in a very meaning of it” This is a view which is opposite to that f Shri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me. I can understand that planets do not influence our lives and their positions only indicate the different situations in the material world and the planets themselves do not affect our lives by their movements. Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma explains that Jyothish is a statistical science. Ancient sages have found a correlation between the planetary positions and the events in ones life as it unfolds. This seems a reasonably good explanation but being statistical, how good is the correlation and does it involve a probability of success of prediction?? And Shri Ramapriya’s explanation is simple – it works, so it must be correct!! There can be no argument against that. I look forward to the comments of Respected Gurus and members of the group on the above Thanks and Regards Srinivasan Sponsor ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C26B3A.AFF269D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4731.2200" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>Om Gurave Namah</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>Dear Bhakti Vinode Thankur,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>Jaya Jagannath.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>The definition is what we say as "the what , how and when of an event". </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>The "What of the event or the event definition" is intricately linked to Karma and the cycle of rebirth where the anubhava (experiences) that the Mana & Atma have to undergo are based on (a) Past Karma manifestation which is Karma and (b) Iccha Shakti, with the latter being dependant on a host of factors including Gyana, bhakti and a host of other factors. In Jyotish terminology, this is the Lagna & Graha factors playing in various signs and houses (and affecting the experience of the Atma) and in various nakshatra (and affecting the experiences for the Mana). The Purusha and Chaitanya are better words to explain this in a nutshell.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>The "How of the event" relates to its manifestation in this world. This is the Arudha lagna and the various Arudha, varnada, Special ascendants and all other illusionarey bodies including illusionary planets (Upagraha). The how is linked to the way Prakriti with her three Guna will manifest through the tatwa etc. The experience will reach the Mana through the five indriya's and this can be happy or sad depending on our temporal perception of what the How should have been (the anticipation or expectation of an event or the natural conditioning for receiving perceptions related to the event). For example, a person who fells he has done well in an exam finds he has failed, this news or event reaches him through various possible sources, and the methodology of these sources influencing his indriyas is the How of the event.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>Finally the When and this is dependant on the Mana or what we call as DASA.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>This is what jyotish is <DIV> all about. The best way is to ask oneself:</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>(a) What is going to happen, </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>(b) How will it happen, and © When will it happen? </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>Cutting this short. Just grow on this seed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>Best Wishes</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=029531517-03102002><FONT face=Arial>Sanjay</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><BR><B></B> BMG [bmg]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:58 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re: Scientific basis for astrology<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Srinivasan</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Courier New"></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><EM>"The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that <BR>“……Jyotish is not a science of Karma in a very meaning<BR>of it” This is a view which is opposite to that f<BR>Shri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me."</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Courier New"></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Please, drop the "Shri" - I am not deserving it. I am more simple. Dasa is enough.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Your confusion is natural. There are many different approaches to astrology. I suppose it is due to different needs of people, their world-view. Everybody approaches it form different direction and point of departure. Just like in Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that there are four general classes of people who are seeking His association: those searching for Absolute Truth, curious or inquisitive, those looking for wealth and finally those who are seeking relief from suffering. Also He said about so many different characteristics of people regarding their social status or varna, their ashrama or their individual situation in society (order of life), personalists or impersonalists, etc. He is showing to all of them so many aspects and different views of His personality, characteristics and incarnations. So, people are confused. The same is with jyotish. It is so vast and it has so many divisions, that different people are focusing on those ascpects of it, which are most interesting to them, according to their desire and automatically to their ability to understand or focus of their attention.</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">I think that it is not difficult to see that Jyotish is primarily predictive. It allows to infer about past, present and future from different kinds of observations: like symbolic picture of the sky, nimitta - omens, laksanas - bodily characteristics, and many other kinds of observations described for example in Prasna-marga - all of them connected with a specific point in time: time of birth, time of different events, time of query, etc. What most classics of Jyotish describe are many "results" or "consequences" of this or that divinatory fact: yoga in a horoscope, direction from which the querist approaches an astrologer, what part of body he touches while asking and what sound the querists starts his question with, or from which nostril astrologer's breath comes out on Thursday!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">So, mostly what you get is a specific observation or fact in a certain time infers some other event or state. That is primary role of astrology, and it is what all the Jyotish classics are elaborating about. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">Seeing it form this point you won't be confused in opposition to seeing Jyotish as describing karma, while you will notice it also describes facts of life of liberated entities like God, His avataras, expansions, and also other liberated jivatma-living beings, whose existence is akarma, or free of karmic bondage to this world.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">But at the same time there are many places in Jyotish clsssics where there are explanations of past events or deeds which could be or were the causes of the specific situation in the life of a person: firstly the pattern of sky during - for example - his birth, and secondly specific event or state in his life.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">That's why I wrote: "</FONT><FONT face=Arial>Jyotish is not a science of karma in a VERY meaning of it. It is very close, but it is MORE than that." </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman">It means, that it includes karma, but it is wider, bigger, and contains more meaning that you could find in that <EM>karma </EM>concept. Therefore the difference between the view presented by Narayana Iyer and that of mine, is a difference between an event and a cause of it. I say Jyotish is primarily about events, and he says Jyotish is about causes of events.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">It means you could fix your attention on karma when using astrology, and it is OK, if karma is all that you are interested in for now. But if you widen your interest to free will, God's supreme will, His merciful nature in opposition to His sometimes fearful aspect of Kala (time) and seemengly impersonal fate-inflicting severe judge or punisher of the world, you might then find a different picture of Jyotish, its meaning in your life, and the way you could use it for spiritual and emotional benefit of others. And this is THE VERY MEANING of Jyotish I aspire to myself and also try to inspire others to. The horoscope, or picture of sky, is the Visvarupa - or God's cosmic form - in a mini version in comparison to that shown by Krsna to Arjuna, and super-mini in comparison to the real Visvarupa, we can't see. By meditating on it with this </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">awareness, I believe, one can attain much more benefit, than by undestanding it only as Yamaraja's diary seen through a key-hole. See the second chapter of Brhat Parasara Hora Sastra for some more inspiration in this direction. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">Greetings,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial CE">Bhaktivinode Thakur dasa</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B></B> <A title=scorpio1234in href="scorpio1234in">scorpio we</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title= href=""></A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:21 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re: Scientific basis for astrology</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><TT>HARE RAMA KRISHNA<BR><BR>Shri Narayana Iyer,<BR>Shri Visti,<BR>Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa,<BR>Shri Ramapriya,<BR>Shri Sarbani Sarkar<BR>Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma<BR><BR>Thank you for your response to my query on the<BR>scientific basis for Astrology. Thank you for giving<BR>insights into this matter. After reading your views, I<BR>would like clarification for the following:<BR><BR>Shri Narayan Iyer had mentioned that jyothisha shastra<BR>is all about the Law of Karma. As I understand the Law<BR>of Karma extends over several birth cycles. When a<BR>person is born he carries over his Papa/Punya credit<BR>balance from his previous birth into the present<BR>birth. During his lifetime he accrues some Papa/Punya<BR>by his actions, which changes his credit balance in<BR>his account. At the time of his birth the position of<BR>planets (his natal horoscope) indicates how his life<BR>is going to unfold, including how he will accumulate<BR>Papa/Punya during the present lifetime. This is fixed<BR>and nothing can change it. Of course his earlier Karma<BR>will probably determine the time of his rebirth and<BR>thereby fix the position of the planets at the time of<BR>his birth. This implies that we should take a<BR>fatalistic view of life, whereas in Bhagvad Gita we<BR>are taught that our destiny is to a large extent<BR>shaped by our actions. I would like to have your<BR>comments on this.<BR><BR>Karma extends over several birth cycles. When you say<BR>Astrology is a tools to understand the Law of Karma.<BR>We are only able to see Karma in action in the window<BR>of the present lifetime not in the past births or the<BR>future births. Is it possible to delve into past<BR>births using astrology?? And how do we see the future<BR>birth??<BR><BR>Is it necessary for a person to believe in God in<BR>order to stop the cycle of birth and death?? Is it not<BR>possible for an atheist who has done a lifetime of<BR>good deeds to attain Moksha?? Does he have to be born<BR>again as a believer and then only attain God??<BR><BR>Shri Visti explained that in order to believe in<BR>Astrology, one has to have belief in God. I have come<BR>across several people who believe in God but are<BR>skeptics as far as astrology is concerned. I came<BR>across a sceptic recently who asked me this question<BR>for which I was not able to give a convincing reply.<BR>The question is “Twin babies born within a minute of<BR>each other having identical planetary positions in<BR>their horoscope, lead totally different lives. One is<BR>poor while the other is rich, one is healthy while the<BR>other is chronically ill and so on…”. How is it<BR>possible?? Can you throw light on this? <BR><BR>Vedic astrology is still not very widely accepted in<BR>the western world even though they do believe in God<BR>whether He is Jesus or Allah. <BR><BR>The view of Shri Bhaktivinode Thakur Dasa that <BR>“……Jyotish is not a science of Karma in a very meaning<BR>of it” This is a view which is opposite to that f<BR>Shri Narayan Iyer and it confuses me.<BR><BR>I can understand that planets do not influence our<BR>lives and their positions only indicate the different<BR>situations in the material world and the planets<BR>themselves do not affect our lives by their movements.<BR><BR>Shri Chandrasekhar Sharma explains that Jyothish is a<BR>statistical science. Ancient sages have found a<BR>correlation between the planetary positions and the<BR>events in ones life as it unfolds. This seems a<BR>reasonably good explanation but being statistical, how<BR>good is the correlation and does it involve a<BR>probability of success of prediction?? <BR><BR>And Shri Ramapriya’s explanation is simple – it works,<BR>so it must be correct!! There can be no argument<BR>against that.<BR><BR>I look forward to the comments of Respected Gurus and<BR>members of the group on the above<BR><BR>Thanks and Regards<BR>Srinivasan<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></TT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><TT>Y\ our use of is subject to the <A href=""> Terms of Service</A>.</TT> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font face=arial size=-2></font><br> <script language=JavaScript> var lrec_target="_top"; var lrec_URL = new Array(); lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd./M=233351.2428261.3848243.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705082690:H\ M/A=126 1 181/R=0/id=flashurl/* </br> </BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C26B3A.AFF269D0-- ======================== EOF - End Of Forwarding ======================== Anthony AKA Vedavrata http://tony.donetsk.ua/''>http://tony.donetsk.ua/'>http://tony.donetsk.ua/ --- Stop genetic manipulation! * Origin: Om Gurave Namaha (2:465/50) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 UUCP, ================== Forwarded by Anton Kuznetsov (2:465/50) ================== Area : X_NETMAIL Date : 30 Sep 02, 20:04 From : naaraayana_iyer, 2:465/50.128 To : Anton Kuznetsov, 2:465/50 Subj : Re: Scientific basis for astrology ======================= BOF - Begin of Forwarding ======================= @RFCID: ana07p+33k7 (AT) eGroups (DOT) com @RFC-List-Un: <> Om Jaya Jagannath ----------------- Dear Srinivan, Welcome to SriJagannath Forum. BEING AN ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ASTROLOGY, NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME ACROSS UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. Unfortunately, the present state of *Science* has still not reached the stage where they can fully comprehend the workings of the Universe! Yet, they have come a long way, ever since Galileo was tortured(or was it put to death??) for stating that Earth was spherical in shape!! Scientists are slowly realizing these subltle phenomena and are acknowleging, albeit with lot of reservations. Most of modern men and scientists, go by the principle of *Seeing is Believing* or *I need Proof*, which is fantastic and an excellent attitude. Fact is, we all live on the earth and our sciences etc are limited to these eartly confines, which are well defined and contained. Astrology and allied Occult Sciences work on Subtle/Ethereal level, where there are no limitations, and cannot be easily comprehended by our limited organs of perception. We have tomes and tomes of Philosophical, Astrological & Tantric literatures which deal in these subjects. To *directly* realize most of these texts, one has to have a competent Guru, do our sadhanas regularly and awaken our dormant kundalini shakti! Our great saints and tantrics dont go about carrying books and notes, they are the very embodiemnt of Vedas and Divine knowledge. Due to their faith, discipline, effort and proper guidance they realize the unrealized. They do doubt these things initially, The just dont stop after doubting, but they then sincerely explore into these recondite domains without any bias! Yet, you need not be super-educated to understand or believe in them. If you are observant, and watch closely you can be a witness to the wonderful phenomenon called Law of Karma. I was lucky, in that, as a child, my father used to teach me what Karma is, and how it affects us in our day-to-day life. He used to give practical examples of friends, relatives. We used to take case-studies , observe the actions of certain individuals and see how it affects them later. It was unbelievable to say the least! I am not claiming to be a know-it-all, just sharing my experince. If you ask me what Jyotisha Shastra or for that matter life is all about .... all I can say is Law of Karma. For those with scientific temper, this is nothing but Newton's third law of motion, which states: "Ever Action has Equal and Opposite Reaction". When you act(this action is something which most of us identify our ego/ahamkara with), we create a debt, which in sanskrit is known as Rna. It is this Rna which ties us up to our earthly existence. Then nature(prakriti) creates a situation which subjects us to deal with the re-action. This cycle goes on and on. If you dont experience the *Equal & Opposite Reaction* during your current lifetime, rest assured, it will visit you in your in the next one, till you repay yoor karmic debts. This is known as Rnanu-bandhana. The bondage of Karma. What is fate, after all, nothing but the sum of all our past karmas, and what are the karmas except the debts to be paid. Nature's wheels grinds slowly, but they grind very very thoroughly, and nothing escapes them. In Jyotisha, we recognize The Nine Planets which are the agencies through which Nature gets her job done. Each planet planets influences different aspects of our lives. The Sun, for instance, represents the Soul. The Moon represents the Mind, especially its intuitive and emotional aspects, etc. The most important of the Nine Planets is Saturn, the planet in charge of Experience - Anubhava. Saturn is the "Son of Sun" in Jyotish because all experience occurs due to the presence of the soul, who is the true experincer. He dishes out what we deserve, based on our karmic accounts, if we have done good deeds in our past lives, then we experience happiness else misery. Hence, In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna avers: "Renounce the fruits of your action". That is how we avoid creating karma for ourselves. Obviously, the question arises, what if we do good deeds, why shdn't we identify with them, why renounce the fruits? The answer is, because karma causes re-birth, and even though these are good karmas, we are re-born, to experience the re-action. So whats the problem? It is because, when we are re-born, we loose knowledge of our past lives. Look at the rich and famous. They have done substantial amount of good karmas, and they are re-born into a life of opulence, then they start wasting away and mire themselves into new sets of karmas and take a spiral plunge. Ofcourse, we ourselves are not exceptions! Here is where, praying to Ishta Devata is essential and important. By surrendering ourselves to our Ishta Devata, we are in essence, letting our personal deity to control our samskaras, wo we are freed from current and future debts! That is why I say, dont bother about convincing anybody. If they believe, they wont need any convincing, and if they dont, no amount of convincing will work on them. Often, those who believe, have done astrology in their past lives and its all the karmas acting in this life. Finally, we all have our limitations, we have to realize this and rise above this. Easier said than done. But, Astrology is an excellent tool, to understand the Law of Karma. It is a formidable Science, by which we can also decipher the statements in Bhagavad Gita and for that matter all our philosophical literature too. As far as the other questions are concerned, I believe Ramapriya & Visti have answered them. Good Luck on your voyage! Blessings, Narayan ~~~ In , "scorpio1234in" <scorpio1234in> wrote: > HARE RAMA KRISHNA !! > > DEAR SHRI NARAYANA IYER, > I JOINED SRIJAGANNATH GROUP A FEW DAYS AGO AND I READ WITH INTEREST > ALL THE MESSAGES POSTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE PICKED UP THE BASICS OF > ASTROLOGY THROUGH SELF STUDY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A BEGINNER ONLY. I > FOUND THE MESSAGES VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BEING AN > ENGINEER, I HAVE TRIED TO LOOK FOR A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ASTROLOGY, > NOT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN IT MYSELF, BUT FREQUENTLY I COME ACROSS > UNBELIEVERS WHO NEED TO BE CONVINCED. HOW DOES MOVEMENT OF PLANETS > AFFECT OUR LIVES?? WHY ONLY THE NINE GRAHAS?? WHAT ARE RAHU AND > KETU?? WHAT IS GULIKAN?? WHY NOT THE OTHER PLANETS?? WHY NOT THE > OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE?? > I WOULD LIKE COMMENTS FROM YOU AND OTHER RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THIS > GROUP. > THANKS AND REGARDS > SRINIVASAN Your use of is subject to ======================== EOF - End Of Forwarding ======================== Anthony AKA Vedavrata http://tony.donetsk.ua/ --- Stop genetic manipulation! * Origin: Om Gurave Namaha (2:465/50) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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